The Litigation Finance Business - Cayse Llorens CEO of LexShares / e9

Hey, Michael here. You will now hear some episodes of the Michael Girdley Show that we had branded differently, called Unusual Profits or some such like that. Same show, same person, just me interviewing people and producing content that could be helpful on your journey and mine as well. So with no further ado, here's the episode. Hey, Michael here. Sponsor for today's show is actually a product that I'm a part of called DM Bridge. And what DMBridge is, uh, is a service that we built, uh, to solve the problem that Twitter's direct messaging functionality is a total mess. So we built DMBridge to help you fix that. Um, a lot of the other solutions, uh, do things like requiring you to install a whole nother inbox. We didn't want another inbox, so we created DMBridge. And what it does is it takes all of your Twitter DMs and has them appear inside of your email inbox. So you can reply to them just like it's a regular email. You see them just like it's a regular email. You can search them later like it's one of your regular emails, all just by using DMBridge. So, uh, we're currently live with the product. Uh, would love for you to sign up and become a customer, uh, and check it out. So you can find that at dmbridge.app, uh, and go on there, put in your name, uh, and be either part of the beta or join us as part of the live use of the product. And again, check it out, dmbridge.app. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of How My Business Works. It's the podcast that I, your host Michael Girdley, do with different guests each week around niche and interesting industries. And today I'm super excited to I'm excited to welcome Kase Lorenz to the podcast to talk about LexShares and the wonderful world of litigation finance. So Kase, thanks so much for being here.

Thanks for having me. Big fan of the podcast and it's an honor to join you. I appreciate it.

Yeah, super awesome. So where are you today? Are you in Boston or in Chicago?

In Boston. So, you know, we have two offices. One's in Boston in the financial district and the other's in Manhattan. So I'm in the Boston office with our team out here, yes.

That's great.

Well, cool.

To get started, uh, you know, I think it'd be great if you could give us kind of a 1-minute thumbnail sketch of, of your career and how you ended up getting into litigation finance.

Sure. So I'll start with where we are today. Um, CEO of LexShares, and, you know, I have the privilege of working along a world-class team, alongside a world-class team. And our goal is to economically empower businesses to access justice in the legal system. So how did I get here? Well, let me try to condense this into a timeframe that we have. You know, I would say I'm a problem solver and I put people first. If you look over the arc of my career, I would say tech-enabled investor is kind of the story you'll see. So starting with computer engineering undergrad at University of Illinois, worked as entrepreneur/software engineer for a number of years, and as of late, investor. So venture capital investor for several years, private equity, graduated with my MBA from University of Chicago Booth School of Business with a concentration in finance. And so when you combine the entrepreneurial spirit, the technologist in me, and the investor in me, that's kind of how we end up at LexShares. So litigation finance, I think, is a very interesting niche that adds legal to all of those components. And in addition to our house of in-house attorneys who have been doing these things for years, I think, you know, it's a match made in heaven.

Yeah.

In my opinion.

That's great. Well, I mean, your enthusiasm for what you're doing comes across. So that's, that's pretty great. How long have you been with the company?

So I started a couple months ago. It's been maybe half a year. So phenomenal growth story since 2013, 2014, been building the technology, building the team. And I've recently joined to help continue our market edge, I would say, from a technological perspective and just being an innovator in the space.

Yeah, that's great. Well, to kind of build a baseline, so tell us about the world of litigation finance. Like, how does that business work? What is litigation finance?

Sure, so maybe it'd be helpful to start with the use case. So let's picture, so you come from a tech background, right?

I do.

So what's one of the companies that you've founded or scaled or?

You know, I'm a partner in a company here that's an education and training company called CodeUp.

Excellent. So let's say CodeUp is working with a massive tech company and you're working on a joint venture and you have a contract in place and maybe they decide not to go forward with the partnership. And in the future, you see all of your hard work rolled into one of their products on the shelf. And so this is a breach of contract situation, right? And then you may say, well, we deserve a royalty stream from the technology we worked on together and we're just not seeing it. but we don't have the funding to pursue justice for this situation in court. Or maybe we do have the funding, but it's risk capital because how much money would we like to put into a court case? And we're not in the business of law, we're not in the business of pursuing court cases, but we do know that we believe we have damages that we're entitled to. So that's one use case where we can come in and help finance the cost of attorney's fees, market research, expert witnesses, all these different expenses that can be between where someone is today and getting to the finish line in their case, right? Another use case is law firm funding. So law firms can have hybrid cases that they work. So let's say there's a, an attorney that says, I charge $1,000 an hour, and in your example, CodeUp, you say, we can't afford to pay that, right? We can maybe pay you $200 an hour or just pay you when and if we win the case. And so a law firm may have 20, 50, 100 of these cases in progress, and they're waiting for their fees until the case is resolved, right? And in the meantime, they have to pay the rent, they have to pay their team, they have to pay the law firm's bills. We also fund law firms that are working on contingency arrangements, hybrid contingency arrangements. So that's another person that we serve. And then of course, we're investors, right? So there's the investor aspect of what we do. Litigation finance is an uncorrelated asset class. So as commodity prices change, as interest rates go up and down, as we go from boom to bust cycles, investing in these cases, investing in helping people pursue justice, it's really tied to the outcome of the case and not the macro economy as much as other assets may be. So from an investor perspective, you have natural liquidity events as cases resolve. You have, I would say, strong returns relative to other options. Especially in today's economy, you have the benefit of the lack of correlation to the macroeconomy. That's the different constituents, I would say. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, it totally makes sense. Then the way it works is you would end up investing, so to speak, in a particular case and then taking a percentage, all or most or a portion of the outcome. If there's a settlement or that royalty stream in the future, y'all would win on, get a percentage of the upside.

So that's the idea, right? We're risking our capital to help pursue what we believe is a meritorious case with a plaintiff that we believe has a strong position. Should the case go to zero, that's the risk that we take. Should the case be successful, well, we risked our capital. We, you know, monitored and serviced the case throughout the lifecycle of whatever the litigation matter was. And so a portion of the proceeds upon recovery is what we're entitled to.

Yes.

Right.

Okay. And then you mentioned these use cases that seem like they're mostly contract disputes and damages there. Is that— that's kind of the niche where LexShares enters? Because I know there's also patent litigation, right? Where there's patent trolls, depending on your perspective, that are running around doing that kind of stuff, or litigation that's happening for a small owner of a patent. So do you focus just on the contract disputes, or do you do a broader spectrum of the universe of stuff?

So we're commercial civil litigation. So no personal injury, no medical receivables. We tend to do fewer patent cases. I would think of breach of fiduciary duty, breach of contract, whistleblower cases, False Claims Act, antitrust, a business versus a business, right? Yes. Typically what we target. Another way that we differentiate is the size of the matters that we get involved in. So on the, on the larger end of this market, You have folks that may invest $50 million, let's say, into a large multinational arbitration. On the smaller end of the market, you may have an attorney that's a working attorney that can fund one of their clients every now and again when it makes sense. And then we sit somewhere in the middle. So we'll invest typically single-digit millions to help someone cover the cost of their expenses. Um, and we also differentiate by being custom working with our clients to try to find the, the funding arrangement that makes sense for both sides. And we can move quickly. So we're one of the most active investors in the space. We do, I think, more deals per annum than all or most other players in the market. So one of the ways that we have that differentiation is just how quickly we can go from the initial touchpoint to actually providing the funding.

Yeah. So are there— and you're an MBA Booth grad, so I'll, uh, I'll throw, I'll throw in my computer science knowledge of economic talk. But, um, so are there economies of scale in the way your business works? Like the more The bigger you get, obviously you're more well-known. Does that end up creating more liquidity and options for you guys, or is there other aspects that are helping you grow it to be, I guess, a bigger business to where you are today?

It's a great question. So I would say technology is one of the cornerstones of Lexshare's DNA, right? So we have a piece of tech that's proprietary, that's in-house, that's called DiamondMine. And so DiamondMine is something we've been working on for years, building out the business rules, building out our integrations with courts across the country to understand what cases are filed, which ones are a fit for what we look to invest in and what we think are strong opportunities with strong case facts, et cetera. So one of the things that lets us scale is technology, which again, kind of ties into my background in computer engineering, software engineering. So we're able to go out, kind of canvas the country and see what cases are being filed, understand who we should be speaking with, and really have the economy of scale, and in some cases, let the ones and zeros do the work, right?

Yeah.

I'll add to that though, our ultimate investment decisions are made by a team of in-house lawyers who have been doing this for decades. Got it.

So it's a Palantir-style system, right? Where you're using the computer to narrow it down and help augment the humans that you have inside, but you're not expecting, you're not having these poor couple dozen lawyers pouring through every court filing from every single jurisdiction all the time.

I say we find the best of both worlds, right? I mean, you're a software guy, right? So you can have technology tools to make a software engineer more productive, but, but good luck having a software bot do all of the work. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And so then how does the split typically work? Is that, is that custom per, per deal and per investment that, that y'all do, or is it, do you just say, okay, here's, here's the way it works. You know, not, not to pick on the poor personal injury attorneys, but it seems like most of them have pretty, pretty standard splits that they're using with folks. Is it bespoke or is it— is there an industry standard for what you're doing in terms of splits and how you make your money versus the client retaining their incentive?

I'd say yes and yes. So there are some starting points that most funders may coalesce around to begin with, such as the money we lend you some multiple of that is what's owed over time, or depending on what you recover, some percentage of your gross recovery is the compensation for the funder, or a hybrid of those two approaches. You know, we're aware of both of those, let's say, paradigms for pricing, but ultimately we do dig into the weeds on the cases and understand the moving parts with the plaintiff and with the plaintiff's counsel. So we do strive to tweak the terms here and there as needed so that it really is mutually beneficial. Another thing I'll say is we keep a close eye on what we think the damage profile may be. So if we think a successful recovery is $10 million, $20 million, $30 million, $1 million, we'll adjust the numbers so we think it is a positive outcome to the best of everyone's ability to predict, right, for what the cost is, that we receive or what the proceeds are that the plaintiff or our counterparty receives, and then trying to make sure that their counsel is paid what they're owed as well.

Yeah, fascinating. And so are you actually, when you look at a case, are you generating a quantifiable score of what you think, okay, from a, you know, now that you've been at this since 2014, my guess is you've probably gotten pretty good at predictive modeling on what the outcomes can look like. Unlike venture capitalists. Uh, so just curious, curious to the level of, I guess, the level of specificity like the company is at, at this point.

Yeah, I'd say DiamondMine is pretty sophisticated with its scoring mechanism. So we have a set of criteria that we think represent a good opportunity for us. And so the software is not just pulling in the cases and normalizing the data formats, as you can appreciate. If you pull in data from a courthouse, it may be a PDF, it may be a JPEG, it may be HTML, XML, what have you, maybe a flat file, depends on the API that they have. Hopefully I didn't lose the listeners that don't come from the— But at a high level, the technology is identifying the cases, scoring the cases, and then from there it gets handed off to our internal team, which says, you know, Do we agree with the score? Would we toggle it up or down? And let's dig into the weeds, right?

Yeah, that's great. And then in terms of, you know, I saw on the website there's a marketplace fund that's open to investors. So is that how the deal— you guys have a series of funds under management. Is that kind of how the business is allocating and where the capital is coming from to invest in these litigation efforts?

So we have a hybrid model. We have an online marketplace where we confidentially supply some information on a high level about the cases to accredited investors who have already been prescreened and are in a position to help finance some of these plaintiffs. We also manage funds, which is what you refer to. So LexShares Marketplace Fund II is our current fund with a target size of $100 million, and that raise is underway, and we're in the, the back nine, so to speak, of that raise. So through this hybrid approach, we're able to finance the cost of litigation for the customers. And again, you know, we always seek what's mutually beneficial. So everyone from our counterparty, which is the plaintiff and their attorney, to the online marketplace, to our fund, obviously there's a lot of calculus to be done to optimize putting everyone's interests first, but that is what our focus is.

Yeah. And so we talked about the different types of litigation, finance litigation. I mean, obviously the personal injury guys, they seem to do that mostly out of their own book. I've actually looked at some of their offices and toured them here where I am in San Antonio, and it's fascinating. I mean, it's just—

Oh, wow.

Insurance shakedown operations, basically. So there's those guys. So they do that on their own book. And then there's the patent guys. And I've actually been pitched a couple of times to invest in patent litigation funds and stuff like that, where they'll actually go acquire the patents and then try to monetize them. What is so appealing about the commercial dispute litigation that you're talking about, right? Why, why pick that niche? Is it just because it's not accessible, or why go after that?

I think it ties into the core tenets of our underwriting process. So at a high level, there are 3 pillars of, of how we underwrite cases. One is the case itself, right? What's the fact pattern? Was a contract breach? What's the applicable case law in this jurisdiction? The plaintiffs themselves, what are their goals in this litigation matter? Are they seeking monetary damages? Are they seeking an apology? You know, you have to really understand the case itself and the motivations of the plaintiff. And that's a little bit clearer sometimes for commercial civil litigation matters, right? So we can look at case law and precedent and have an attorney who has seen these cases through fruition for decades look at the case law and the precedent for a given matter. Then we look at the counsel that they've retained. Who's the attorney working on this litigation matter? Are they experienced in this type of case law? Are they experienced in this jurisdiction with this judge, with this courthouse, et cetera, et cetera? And then the firm they look at, we can look at their performance with this type of case in this jurisdiction with this judge, with this type of client, and we can start to see a trend of is this a strong opportunity, right? And then we also look at the defendant in the case. So if someone does in fact owe the plaintiff money and if it is decided in a court of law or arbitration, etc., that there is a damage owed, we want to understand the creditworthiness of the other side to make sure that, you know, in the event that there is a settlement or an adjudication in favor of the plaintiff, that they're actually able to collect.

Got it. But this, you know, this— the commercial thing, right? I guess you're saying just until LexShares came along, there wasn't really somebody with deep enough pockets to kind of find this cream of these, these potential litigation finance opportunities that were too big for the regular old attorney who's just a, you know, a 5 or 10 person firm to take that amount of risk themselves, right? Is that, that's kind of the, I guess, the opportunity you're exploiting as a company at this point?

Well, I think commercial is interesting because it's, it's a little bit more straightforward for an experienced attorney to understand the fact pattern, right? I also think PI is a more mature market.

PI is patent?

Personal injury.

Personal injury. Okay, perfect.

Yeah. So personal injury, medical receivables, that, that corner of the market, it's just a more mature market, right? So you look at the commercial space and it has been more of a growth phase from an industry lifecycle perspective. So I think that makes it really interesting. I also think it's possible to have real subject matter expertise in some of the sub-niches on the commercial side. And that comes back to the prowess of our in-house legal team, right? So we have a team of lawyers who are skilled at these types of cases, and it's important for us to stay within our sweet spot, and that's kind of where we operate.

Yeah, it's great that you act almost like a venture capital fund or a PE fund, but more so with more expertise than your typical venture capitalist, I think, myself included.

I know a lot of smart VCs, but I understand the comparison.

Well, I think there's, you know, decision— the quality of decisions is, uh, you know, based on a combination of, uh, your experience and then also the data and inputs that you have and how tough the problem space is. So that Venn diagram. And I think the cool thing about the niche that y'all are going after is how those things are somewhat tractable, right? You have a lot of history that you've built up as a company to help make smarter decisions, both through software and people, through, through all that stuff. And then there's like really good data, right? Because when people file suits, they have to kind of explain what they're doing in public forums unless things are sealed, I guess. But all that's pretty cool.

That's right. And I'll point out, you know, we have a track record of working well with our clients. And so some new market entrants, they may be great, but they may be unproven. Some existing players in the space, they may have a longer track record and their reputation will speak for itself, whether it's, you know, positive, negative or neutral. And I think our experience in the market, we have a lot of satisfied customers that have actually sent others our way because they said, it's not just, can we strike a deal where the investment sounds good? It is, what is it like to work with this team throughout the duration of the case, right?

Yeah, that's great. So you joined as CEO just a bit ago, you mentioned about 6 months. Jay was the— Jay Greenberg was the founder before that and still involved in the company?

Jay Greenberg and Max Volsky still heavily involved. Max Volsky is our chief investment officer, literally wrote the book on LitFin. It's called Investing in Justice. You can find it on Amazon. So in the early days of this industry in the United States, you know, Max is— many call him the grandfather of litigation finance in the United States. He was doing these deals for decades before it got more mature here, and he understood the model and just knew how to underwrite these deals very early on in the space. So, you know, Jay has an investment banking background, smart as a whip. You can send Jay a spreadsheet with 1,000 cells in it and he'll pick out the error in the third decimal point. And so very strong team. This is what our online marketplace was born from. So in the beginning of this industry, it was where does the funding come from? And so the online marketplace solved this problem in the earlier days of the company history. And as we've matured, we've had more and more access to capital based on our track record. And so we just continue to grow as the industry continues to grow.

Yeah, that's great. And then some really good VC funds were involved in the company early on, you know, at seed and whatnot. And then, then I didn't see that there were future or subsequent rounds since then. What, what is the state of the company now? Is it, is it privately held by yourself and the other folks, or is it still on the venture path? Kind of where are things headed?

We are privately held, so the, the transaction with Brockhurst really helped to strengthen a lot of pillars of what we're already good at. So bringing technology expertise, bringing access to capital, yeah, that's, that's pretty much— we're doing more of the same and bigger and better and faster, essentially.

Got it. So Brockhurst came in— I'm sorry for not being familiar with that, I just didn't see it when I looked at stuff. So they came in, or they're a private equity firm that came in and, and Recap the company? Is that kind of what happened recently?

I'm founder and managing partner of Brockhurst Capital Partners.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. So we joined forces with Jay and Max and the rest of the team at LexShares to essentially continue to scale.

Got it. And so was Brockhurst a search fund or was that a full-on PE fund? Because it's not common for a principal of the private equity side to come in and take over and run things.

That's a great point. Brockhurst is focused on specialty finance, And after speaking with Jay and Max, we just kind of unanimously realized it makes sense to step in and join the team. I mean, with, with my background in investing in technology and scaling teams with technology operations, you know, I've worked on large multinational projects in previous lives and really scaled things from a few people sitting at a coffee shop to, to much larger than that. So it really is a match made in heaven. I wouldn't normally jump at the opportunity to work with a team, as you, as you so wisely point out, but in this case, uh, it spoke for itself.

Yeah, that's awesome. And then what is the, the longer-term vision of, of what's going to happen with the company? Is it a permanent hold model, or are you all pushing towards some sort of, you know, bigger vision in terms of where you want to go with this as a platform? How are you thinking about the investment?

Yeah, we're focused on, on long-term value creation, I'd say. So There is no notion of we have to do this, we have to do that. We were very deliberate and patient when, when founding Brockhurst and when partnering with LexShares and continuing today and into the future. The idea is to grow the company the right way, maintain a great team, make the team stronger, maintain a good technology platform, make the technology platform stronger, and maintain access to capital to provide the funding that our clients need, right? So it's the same strategy, it's just bigger, better, faster with a lot of smart people in the room, that's it.

More of that stuff, okay. And then, I mean, in terms of, you know, how to think about this type of the returns that you see from the investing that LexShares makes, you know, is it a power law distribution in terms of the way the outcomes are, or is it flatter compared to that? I always got the impression from the patent enforcement guys that it was really a home run, Babe Ruth kind of thing where they're just hoping to have one that, their ship comes in with $50 million on it at some point, or how does that, how did the returns profile kind of look for this subsegment of litigation finance?

One of the virtues of being one of the most prolific funders in the market is that we do more deals and we're more able to proactively apply portfolio theory to construct a diversified portfolio. So we see thousands of cases a day. We do a very small percentage of the opportunities that we see And as a result, we're able to diversify across what legal jurisdiction is this matter in, what is the law firm that's been retained, what is the industry that the defendant is in, what is the size of the opportunity that we invest in. So we're able to do, you know, this multivariable calculus and construct a really diversified portfolio. And so whereas on the other side of the equation, the recipient of the funds, it may be more of a binary matter for them. They have one case. The case goes the way they like, the case goes the way they don't like. From the funding perspective, we diversify across a large pool of investment opportunities. So we provide risk-adjusted returns for our capital providers.

Got it. But in terms of— Well, maybe you can't tell me. Maybe I'll ask it again. If I look at the whole universe of litigation finance, you're picking the cream of the crop. Of that cream, is there more cream or is it relatively like, okay, the expected value of the outcomes is pretty consistent or it's a very binary thing in terms of, okay, we think it's going to be a million or zero and what happens there. So—

You're asking, is the market in a growth phase or what's the spirit of the question?

I think I'm asking the— okay, if I look at a typical venture capital portfolio, right, they have 25 deals, the fund returns a couple of times, hopefully based on 1, 2, or 3 of those, and then the rest is noise. That's a power law distribution. Or if I invest all my money in a savings account, I know I'm going to get 0.5% no matter what. That's a pretty flat distribution. I'm curious, between the two spectrum of those things, where does the market for the commercial niche where you play, how does that shake out as people invest either in the fund or directly into deals that they like that are in the marketplace?

Yeah. I mean, so here's what I can say. I'll say that as an LP in, for example, LexShares Marketplace Fund II, you're looking for a target return profile that reflects the fact that there is advantageous asymmetric risk-reward pricing in this segment of the market. So if we were cutting larger checks into fewer deals, it'd be a different kind of calculation to do because your results funder can swing left or right as large cases resolve left or right. And I would say where we, where we are in the market, you know, I can't share our specific return numbers obviously, but I can say that, you know, what you sacrifice in blockbuster returns, you make back for in diversified risk portfolio and timing, right? Another question that we didn't broach yet is how long does it take from the time you invest to the time that you see the results. And as a, as a result of us being able to invest midstream in the case, when we can understand what the plaintiff has said, what the defendant has said, in some cases what the judge has said, we're able to provide a liquidity event to investors sooner than you might see in a PE or a VC fund, right? So we have diversified returns, we have diversified risk, and we have natural liquidity that I think makes it an attractive investment. I know that's a non-quantitative answer, but hopefully it's helpful.

Yeah, it's okay. Well, you know, I tried to ask twice, what is the shape of the curve? And you've done a good job of providing me interesting facts that aren't the question I asked, which is totally fine. So how big is the team currently at Lectureshare?

16-person team.

16 persons. So it's not a huge team for the amount of volume you guys are doing. You know, I saw you've looked at over a million cases. Like, that's a lot, which the software plays into that.

Right. And, you know, we, like I said, I think we punch above our weight class. We have a skilled team that's been at it for years. You know, we stuck together for years. And I think a lot of the results you see are just the compounding of our subject matter expertise as we've done this for years and years.

Yeah, that's great. Well, what, what does you think about, you also, you probably get to talk about this at parties a lot, right? In terms of what you do every day. What, what sort of facts would surprise people about the world that you guys play in?

Yeah, I guess it depends on what their assumptions are going in, but someone may be surprised that we actually are excited to help people pursue justice. I mean, when we have a case settle in favor of our plaintiff, we actually kind of celebrate internally because we want to see our customers be successful. We believe in what we're doing. I believe in the title of Max Volsky's book, Investing in Justice. It's one of those rare scenarios where you can do well by doing good, I think.

That's great. That's great. I like it. Cool. Well, this has been wonderful. What, uh, what ways could listeners support you or get involved in, in what LexShares is doing? Learn more about, uh, about stuff. How can we be helpful?

So you can go to lexshares.com and learn more. We are closing out our fund for LMF2, the $100 million raise. So For investors interested in that aspect, they can learn more about that at LexShares.com. I'd say on the customer side, we're excited to continue to meet folks that, you know, need capitalization to pursue what they think is their fair day in court, right? We're also excited to continue to meet more law firms that are looking to de-risk their hybrid contingency fees, looking to help their clients continue to afford the case through resolution. I'm really excited about the job. I'm excited about the team. I'm excited about the market. And for folks that need help with single cases, for law firms that need help with portfolios, for investors interested in looking more, I'd say go to LexShares.com.

Yeah, that's great.

And feel free to connect on LinkedIn with me as well.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, dude, your passion for the space is really cool. I love justice, that you use that word a lot, is a really, I think, emotionally charged term. And it's cool to hear it used to describe what you're so passionate about. So really neat.

Awesome. Well, hey, it's, uh, it's, it's been a pleasure to meet with you. I'm excited that we had a chance to talk. So let's, let's stay in touch. Perhaps we can do something else down the road as well.

Yeah, you got it. All right. Well, thanks. And thanks everybody for listening today. Uh, this was super cool. If it's not clear, I totally, totally nerded out on your business, which I wish I'd thought of it. It's a really great, really great idea. So super fun.

Yeah, let me make one last note. Big shout to the team, right? There's no I in team. And I'll say the team behind LexShares is really the secret sauce. We have great technology, but we have great people. So thanks to the whole team for continuing to do a great job.

Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. Well, thanks for being here, Case. Really appreciate it.

All right, Michael, have a great day.