How to Turn Your Book into Epic Art

What if your book was a work of art? Well, it is a work of art. Okay, but what if it was visually beautiful, like a work of art? Today I'm gonna be chatting with Tarina Carlin on the beyond the Book podcast and we're chatting all about how she's built her career as an artist and author and give you some insights on how you can turn your book into art. Unique products you can make based on not even books itself, but just storytelling through art that can create like amazing fandom around specific products and collectibles. And of course, advice for you to both find and work with artists, whether it's for your next book cover, special edition, or another product you're making. Beyond the Book. Hope you enjoy this podcast and if you've been listening here, you might not know that if you subscribe author Sidekick.com to my newsletter, you can get the Author Marketing Superpowers deck completely for free. We're going to be doing something special around Black Friday also for the fiscal deck, so you might want to stay tuned for Black Friday. I've got a fun little prize going on, but in the meantime, I hope everyone has an amazing rest of your day and let's hop into this podcast.

Tharina, I am so excited to be here with you today. I was recommended your art by one of my author friends. I can't remember who, but we were talking about, like, you know what, artists are good for commissions. And she does a lot of monster romance too. So I just got, I got thrown into your orbit and then I was like, this person's amazing. Not only are they an amazing artist, but you have done so many incredible things beyond the book. Well, not only are you an author yourself, but you've run all these amazing Kickstarter campaigns. You have all these wild products. I'm not going to spoil it. I don't want to steal your thunder. I'm really excited to chat today about A, like, all the amazing things that you've created and B, like how other storytellers who might not have the incredible skills you have to create art might be able to work with artists like you. Because for me, I know that's a very intimidating thing. But from the artist and author, I'm sure you have insights on both ends, but I'd love to start just by understanding. You've been doing this now for a decade. You've been, you've even.

I've been a professional photographer. I'm a master photographer for 10 years now, and I've been an artist my whole life. But I finally, you know, switch it after Covid, like, okay, I need to shift. So that's when I finally dove into my own writing and authoring and I started with publishing photography, art books and illustrated art books. And then as well as my novels and then my art commissions, I guess officially started. This will be my third year doing professional illustrator.

So cool.

For other authors.

I love that taking when you took the leap to like go full time creative, like what did you think your life would look like? And then now, like looking back 10 years, I'm sure you've had like many different arcs of the journey. So like how has that been as you've like. I'm sure there's. It seems like from looking in a good way, there's been like different arcs to your journey. So like walk through those arcs.

Yeah. I was that artist. I come from a medical family. My dad's a surgeon, my mom's a nurse that was told, don't be an artist. I'm not allowed. Like when I had to go to university, but it was not allowed to be an art. So I went into kinesiology, which was the closest science to studying the human body and learning anatomy. So I can draw. So it's kind of. So I worked cardiac rehab and stuff. And then finally I got to a point where, where I moved to Campbell river and had to figure out what I want to do with my life because life circumstances made me lapse with my. With having kids and not being able to work in my field and education credits and I actually was given a choice or knew I had to make a choice. Like I declared I'm going to become a professional photographer. And everybody's like, no way. Like, my dad does photography as a hobby. I hated photography because it's so technical and he's like, if someone could make photography work, don't you think I would have done it? And you know, like, no support. And actually the day I declared I'm going to become a professional photographer to my husband and my father, I got an email from my old university saying so many people have lapsed in upkeeping their thing. We'll do like a quick, like it's a three. I thought I would have had to go back to university for two years and I'd know what can do it in tech. Like three weekends and like the universe testing. And there was like a two week deadline. It's like, are you going to follow your truth and passion in your heart and do it or are you actually going to go the safe route that I knew my dad would or my husband would pay for this thing and I didn't tell anyone about this email because I knew that I knew what their answer would be. It's like safe food, right? It's like do this, this is predictable, this is safe. And. But that wasn't what my heart wanted. But like the day that deadline passed, it was like this weight just gone and I'm like, I am finally going to be me. I'm going to work hard, I'm going to become an artist. Because I knew I wanted to be creative and photography seemed like an easy read because there was, you know, there's structure there and there was courses I could take on how to run a photography business, things I didn't know how to do. But at that time I had already been commissioned just by a friend to do cover art for her kids book. And so I knew I wanted to art as well and like, okay, well I'll be art and photography, not just photography. So you know, and it's just been, wow, that's throughout the years.

That's like I kind of, I love and hate hearing that story at the same time, like I love that you did it at the courage because that's like really hard when especially it's a hard period, but it's hard especially when people around you, people you love, aren't necessarily having your back. I, yeah, I growing up have had a mom who's been like incredibly supportive of all my weird creative endeavors and I'm forever grateful for that. But I give you even more credit for being able to be where you are now and do all these amazing things when that wasn't, you know, something you had that, you know, a supportive system as someone would like. So you start off in photography and you know, eventually you end up now having this world where you're writing romance, you're creating all these incredible art and dragons and all these things we'll talk about. When did you, what made you shift into. Not shift, Maybe it's the wrong word but kind of. Yeah.

When.

When did you begin saying I'm going to now. I'm sure you were already writing but begin publishing your books. When did that start?

I actually wrote my first story when I was 18, eight and it was ironically a military romance. Looking back, knowing the. Because there was fighting and I had my strong female protagonist. But in high school I also fell in love with mythology. Like I was a kid that hid in the library and would like devour the books on mythology, especially Greek and Egyptian mythology and like I was just mythology obsessed. And I guess throughout the years I've just kind of been writing a story and you know, like in. I guess in 2000, my first character in the world I write and introduced herself. And so I wrote. I think I have eight journals filled with her story. And you know, like, I spoke with an editor that used to edit my, like, my business stuff, my photography. And he's like, yeah, well, you know, you should publish. I'm like, yeah, I'm not an author. Like, wow, that sounds scary. This is quite intimate, like when you write it in words. And English is my second language, so why would I put myself out there and I don't know, like Covid hit, I guess. And I looked at my book, I'm like, okay, well, that story is too big to handle. So I'm going to write a quick short story. I don't think I'm capable of short stories because my debut novel, Star found that it's a epic trilogy. Like book one, I think is 114,000 words. Book two is 116. And I know there's. I'm not even done my story yet, so. And you know, the books I wrote this year was like 170,000 and 140. Like, okay, that was supposed to be a short story. So I'm just going to scrap the short story idea. My kids books will be short stories because my novels are not. But yeah, so I just. You know what? I'm going to do it. I'm going to. Because then I can say I did it. I can say I tried. And either it's for me, it's not. And yeah, so that kind of kickstarted my totally.

And. And I love is that you've been able to combine not only your writing, but your art and your writing. And I want to start with something I know a lot of people get scared by, but are super curious about now, which you did recently, which is you did a Kickstarter for Star Found. And I saw like these gorgeous. I'll put a picture up on screen from Instagram, we'll link to everything you have website, all that down below. But Trina has this wonderful Instagram and you shared recently kind of like a picture of which I believe is what you showed me just on this call. The. I do right think your shipment of all of these incredible sprayed edges.

Yeah.

And they're gorgeous. They're. There's. Yeah. That's amazing. It's. They're so cool. I. I think everyone wants sprayed edges for their books, but like there's the three questions that become difficult. Like one is like, how you even design it to begin with, which I'm assuming you did yourself, but I would love to hear about that. Then you have to print the book, which is not easy, and fulfill it, which clearly you have behind you. So that's a process. Then lastly, obviously those two parts are fun, but you need to get someone to pay for it. And all of that's not easy. So I guess walk me through, like, what made you decide to do these sprayed edges the way you did it too? Because it's like, it's all about now.

Like it's a painting. Yeah, it's actually like look like right up there. Oh, I see sprayed edges like right above my head. It's like, yeah. So that's my gold foil in the spray edges. I can have multiple copies. And that's my I love it art book. It's like right there, but my process. So when I first started Kickstarter, when was the first one point? 2021. I took the Kickstarter course with Russell. Sorry. I'm gonna flash his name.

Your name in the beginning as well. You should say it for everyone correctly so everyone knows it. It's beautiful. I don't even think my knew that rolling R, but it's beautiful.

Thanks. No, it's Afrikaans, so it has like a rolling R in there and it sound. Which doesn't. Two sounds don't exist in English. Anyways. So I was in like a Kickstarter course and he actually. Because I was like thinking of publishing my novel that way, and he actually was the one that said, well, you have photography. And he was going to do all like, yeah, whatever, you know. And then he looked at my website and was like, oh, my God, why aren't you doing an art book for your photography? So that was actually my first Kickstarter was my photography art book. Because I did already have an established local audience for that. And, you know, so I did that one first. But like for the author stuff, I think he said something in his course. Then it kind of stuck with me. He's like, find your superpower and tap into it. And for me, my personal superpower is art. Unlike unfortunately most authors I can make my. My novels are actually part art book, part novel. So like Starfound has 14 illustrations. Star Awakened, I think have 12 full illustrations inside of it, not just the covers. So I've just kind of fully leaned into Koaldis I can do for myself. And I'm just gonna build my brand under Both my art and my writing. And it's like, if you don't like my writing, hopefully like the art, then you still like the book. So it's still like a work of art, not just kind of like, where do I feel more comfortable? And I'm very comfortable with my art, so I kind of use that to leverage my writing, at least for myself. Right. Because imposter syndrome is nasty no matter where you're at.

This is true. I mean, playing to your strengths.

Yeah.

So albeit like you, like, you should feel very confident writing because you're a beautiful writer, but I mean, your art is definitely a superpower. And so you started on Kickstarter and now you've done like close to. Is it. It's close to 10 at the end, right? Is it 6?

14? I'm actually finishing my 14th campaign right now. I've switched over to Backer Kit. So when the whole AI thing. Yeah. So Kickstarter's kind of become flooded with AI and because I'm an illustrator that's been very affected by it, I don't really want to be beside that, you know, so that's just personal choice. I want. And I really love backer kids support and I've used them for pledge manager before. And when they said, okay, we're going to do campaigns, I'm like, I just dove right in and I haven't looked back since. So I'm actually, today I'm finishing my 14th campaign. Yeah. But as far as like, the process goes, so it's different for myself versus authors I work with because I do actually work a lot with authors on their campaigns and I'm lucky I don't have to pay myself because I had it for me, which is a nice feature to have. But I think as far as like, figuring out what to do, I like shinies and I basically go with whatever's. If it's there, I want it good. I've collected, like, you can see my shelves, like all sprayed edges from other authors I've collected. So I'm a bit of a book hoarder myself. And you know, like, I. So I studied them like, oh, I really like this. I like the way this looks. And then I just kind of bring it into my own brand. And because I don't like. I don't know if it's just me and ADHD or what it is, but I struggle with marketing, but I find that. So every book I do, I launch through Kickstarter or Backer Kit now because it's a community that they come to you. And I don't have necessarily. And I feel like a loyal audience over the years, like I have probably half. Well, more than half my backers are repeat backers that come back again and again and again. And I haven't quite branched out into the retail stuff, which I really should, but I feel like maybe I should find someone else. That's that their superpower is like, I'll make the pretty. So you make work. So just. I'm great at making pretty things. I'm not good at selling it. Yes. Not my no though.

I mean yes and no. Because clearly like you say that as you've also raised tens of thousands of dollars throughout crowdfunding campaigns. So clearly, I mean, and that's just one one in place. So like how have you seen it? Because you've done 14 now and there's the jump from Kickstarter to backer kit. Have you seen it just slowly build with each campaign you kind of pick up some followers and it keeps growing or okay. And is there something you do like when you do launch a campaign for let's say your last campaign or even your next campaign? What is your kind of. Is there anything I do tomorrow?

Yeah.

Is it. Yeah. Do you have it kind of now or you're kind of still just like figuring it out? I mean it's just all good. We're all figuring it out.

My campaigns I think I'm starting to figure out now. So my campaigns I run I guess three different things. So I have my photography art books. So I have like Oracle deck and a photography art book. And then I have one coming up that I just wanted in a three year project that will come up in the future, maybe next year. Then I have my illustrated art book. So I have my gilded dragons. And then I also have like a kids book which is like way out there. So I'm not. I'm really hard with sticking in my lanes. People are like, yeah, right in your lane. And you know Brandon. Well, no, this is me. You get creative chaos and that's what you get. And then I also run my pin campaigns which actually ironically terrified me at first because it's like a new process and like ordering and trusting and it's scary and even though. But my pins are actually what's really launch before like my derpy dragons. But I feel like the magic with the derpy dragons other than, you know, they're adorable, creepy cute is the community I've slowly built with each campaign. Because like one of the things I love about backer Kit is they allow polls. I don't know. I don't even know that's how you pronounce it. But, you know, like, people can vote on different things. And I always, like, I talk to them like I'm talking to you. Like, I'm having a conversation with a backer. And, you know, like, with my derpy dragons, it kind of started with my, like, weirdling tribe, and people are just like, hey, you want to be part of my weirdling tribe? And people love it. Like, I write for outcasts. I write for people that don't fit in. Like, I've been the black sheep my entire life. I've been, you know, the person that just never fit in. I'm an immigrant. I came here as a teenager, Canada, when I really started just kind of embracing my weirdness because I like dark art, but I also like creepy art and cute art, and I like dragons, and people resonate with that. So have my repeat backers, like, my super backers. And they're like, they're there to support me because I treat them like they're part of my tribe. And I feel like maybe, I don't know, maybe crowdfunding is where the weirdos and outcasts gather, because they, like, when I just can include them like that. They love it. And I've also started, like, with my therapy dragons. Every campaign, you know, it was kind of awkward at the beginning, but now I start telling a story. So they unlock the pins, and each pin has a story as I and I, you know, like, I keep building on it. So, like, when I did my bookish derpy dragons, they went on an adventure into a library of shenanigans. And then the backers get naked to vote. Okay, well, which one are we going to unlock next? And then based on what they unlock, the story evolves. So it's kind of like a creature on adventure, but with pins, and it's directly involved with the creative of it. And I do think that that is part of why my derpy dragons are doing so well, because I make my audience feel part of it. They can leave comments. And honestly, like, a lot of them, our actual feedback from people that have been backers or in my patreon be like, hey, what about this idea? It's like, I saw your art, and I think this will be great with your art. And, you know, it just kind of goes. And they feel like they're part of the process because they can't necessarily draw. But they know me now. And I also offer a commission tier where someone can pay for. Essentially, it covers the cost of the pin creation. And they're like. And it has to be based on a theme of the campaign. And so far, I've had one every single campaign. And they're like, yeah, I love this. I want this and this and this. And it's actually always the same backers, so it's kind of, like, cool that way. And, you know, like, we talk, and she's like, oh, I like this idea. And what about this? And some of them have become my favorites. Like the shadow.

Incredible. Yeah. So I love what you're doing there. You're literally tying these pins in as Easter eggs into your stories. And then as they experience and see these pins, you take their feedback in to shape, ultimately, how they get mixed into the next story, which also then makes the next pin.

Yeah, the campaign is the story. Like, I'm not. These aren't stories I've written. Although, actually, like the campaign right now.

So they're not in your book.

And you.

Wow.

No, it's the campaign itself stuff. But, you know, so, like, if you were to look at my campaigns and just kind of go on through my updates, you can kind of see how people. They vote on the poll. Especially, like, my dungeons and derpies. We went on an rpg, like, quest, right? Like, we all went and explored, like, this dungeon, and they kind of, you know, they started the tavern, and I write, like, a little story, and it's like you just gathered these three derpies, and they are now your team. And you need to survive all the shenanigans. And all the therapies are different D and D monsters. So they get to unlock it. And. Oh, no, like, you guys, you're not like a good party, right? You more like likely to run than actually fight and get injured and stuff. So. And, you know, it's just. But that creates people that want to come back, right. They want to participate. They feel like they're part of the thing. So it's just that's. And then. Yeah, now I just finally they're like, we want a book. We want a book. So that's what I. My current campaign is actually B is for derpy dragons.

Yeah. You want to get a personal world now It's. It's time to get immersed.

So, yeah, that.

Yeah, this is. This is amazing.

Yeah.

How do you, like, how do you even approach printing and shipping? These are these, like, print on demand or you getting them to fill to your house.

So for my pins, because the only place in the world that makes pins are actually in China. So there's like a minimum order quantity. So I do so because they're quite expensive that way. I have to reach a certain funding goal in order to unlock a pin. And then everything gets shipped to me and then I distribute it back to my backers. And then hopefully I also. The campaign does well enough that I can buy extra stock to sell it in person events, which that's probably my. I don't like in person events. Pretty much. I'm not very. I'm socially awkward and you don't like.

And you order extra stock. Tell me why. Okay, yeah.

Diversify income. One thing I've learned is you can't just do one thing because like when. With just my photography, it was just the one thing and I just covet hit and my studio is in my house and I have three kids and I'm like, I'm the one to bring people into my house. So that's when I'm like, okay, I need to do other things. Like that's. And that's kind of. It was a good thing in a lot of ways because that's when I started writing and focusing on my digital illustration. Because commissions, I can work from here and they can be wherever in the world and I don't have to get one on one. But no crowds. But yeah, in person events just. I don't know. It's something that I've been told to keep doing, but there's definitely my lowest list of wanting to do.

I wonder, you know, there's all for. I'm all for diversifying income. It's super important.

And yeah, I guess a few here.

And there are good. But yeah, if it's. If it's definitely a drag on you, I. Yeah, I don't. I don't like that for anyone. But I love this world that you've built with Derby Dragons. I think it's a really, like, different way of thinking about. I think this is something that all of us listening as storytellers have a strength for. Like, not only are you an artist, you are a storyteller and you've created this world around your art. And that is. That makes it a lot easier to like, once you're. Once you fall in love with the story of Derpy Dragons. Well, yeah, I kind of want all of them now. And it's collecting Pokemon at this point.

It's like, I need them, right?

Oh, yeah.

And I think some backers are like that.

Yeah. And then they want to get the custom ones and now they want the book and it's all because of that. I mean, one, obviously your beautiful art, but two, like the story you've told around the art. Now, when it comes to making beautiful art, I have like two kind of different questions here. I'll start with the first, which is there's many folks listening who might be actually artists. Like, you know, there's plenty of storytellers for artists, but might be looking to either A, hone their craft or B, like how they can share with the world. And you started off as a photographer not sharing your art online. So how did you. How did you go from photographer to now sharing your art online? And what would you say to someone else looking to do the same thing?

I actually did share my art online for photography. I deleted all my accounts in January when made it announced we were going to AI script everything. So I actually did, but. And I actually just now about last week, decided to get back to sharing it again after, you know, nightshade and glazing it. How I do share my art, I guess online, like. But I suppose my author side is what's brought in my audience the most because I started building a newsletter for my author stuff. But because I'm not really actually good at small talk, my art is my newsletter. So at the beginning of every newsletter, I share a piece of new art and then I try, I'm trying to share more online, but it's so much work to remember to go and glaze and resize and I'm lazy and I'm easily distracted. But I am starting to actually build more on that. And I think I do a lot of newsletter builders or social media builders for my author stuff. But because my main page is actually my art and my author things, it just kind of feeds together. So I'm building my author business, which is sharing my art. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. That's all kind of one big ecosystem when it comes to the authors you work with. Because it's been. I've seen and now I can see where it all fits together. You have. You're growing your kind of readership through there. You're having people discover your art. Some of those readers, many of the authors you work with are like, all right, I want. I want to make art. I want to make art with you. How do you recommend authors work with artists like you? It could literally be you. I'm sure after people see the Derby Dragons, they might, you know, they might want to commission you. That could be very fun. But you also help others with Kickstarters, like how, how do you approach working with authors? And more importantly for authors themselves, how can they think about working with authors in a way that's like, oh sorry, authors think about working with artists. So many like Ars going on, how can authors work with artists in a way that's like productive and like also empowers you? Because I've heard more stories through the years.

Yes. So I guess like my photography is a luxury brand. So for me upholding that standard has always been a high priority. And you know, like coming back to imposter syndrome, I actually hired my very first cover, another artist to commission art because I didn't trust myself to be good enough to draw cover art. I got over that now, so. But I did commission art. But I learned firsthand the power of communication or the lack thereof because it was the most frustrating things like silence and it's waiting. So I guess communication is 100% the biggest thing you have to think about for hiring an artist is as you hire them, do they respond to messages? Do they keep up to date? How do they talk to you? Does it take weeks and weeks and weeks? Sometimes because I work with people in Europe and I work with people so our time zones are wonky. So you know, give a day or two response time but you know, like how are they talking to you? I actually when I commission or when authors commission me, I add them as a friend on Facebook so they can message me through messengers. So I'll always get like a little bubble pop up. And I do like to keep that open conversation. But I also tell them they have to email all information to me because I will lose the information if they just chat it because it's way too much talk and get the important stuff. So communication is really important. The second thing is look at the portfolio of your artist. You can't go to an artist and be like, oh, I would like, you know, Kiriana style art, but they only draw chibis because they're not going to be able to do it.

Yeah.

And unfortunately you do get what you pay for. Right. If you're going to. It's like honestly artists, that very pinnacle of you're going to get what you pay for. If you want good quality art, you're going to need to invest money into it and being also clear on your own budget. Right. Every artist. I don't have formal education as an artist because I'm scientist by formal education. But some people that have gone through formal education will know things about licensing. They'll have different fees and I hate math. So I Simplified it. So I work on an hourly rate. Like, this is what I'm worth per hour. And you know, like, I have my deposit, which is my minimum. And then I actually time my stuff and I send you the timestamp. And like, now I'm at a point where I'm like, okay, well, roughly takes me this long. And unless I'm doing my personal work, that's like 23 hours. It's usually like half that time for commissions. But you're not going to print massive big necessarily unless you tell me. I just did a commission where the author did want to print a big backdrop, like the size of my wall for a photo background. And, you know, like. But telling your. Your artist what you want to use the art for, right? So some artists are very much like, you only get the hardcover license for this. You only get specific licenses. Again, I have an open license thing. If you hire me a commission, I ask that I can use it in my portfolio. But I actually want authors to make money off my art. So when they'll come for a commission, I'll often tell them, well, this can be a character card. This can be interesting. If we take out this element and I'll save all these things for them as different files. That can be a chapter heading. There's sword in there. Or that can be a pin. Or that can be. And I help my authors see new ways of using the same commission for them to also capitalize on the art, which I know is not something that other artists do because. But it's because I'm in this world, right? I am also making books. And I'm like, okay, well, where else can I. Because I want authors to succeed, because they do. Then come back you want.

It's also like, I'm sure help too, to be like, hey, like, I. When you're open with your intentions, the project, not just create this for me, because then you can guide them on, like, are you sure that's a good idea?

It's fine.

You can do whatever you want. But, like, you can also say, I've seen this be successful and this size print can work or this type of thing. Or. Yeah, that's not going to probably be the budget that's going to get you the version you're looking for, but you can think of something within your budget and get. Get creative. Yeah, it totally makes sense. And do you find. So, like, in general, when working with artists, if you're trying to. As a. As an author, I think it's a very mysterious process. I know it is for myself, you know, I'm literally just sent like cool artists kind of like through direct messages by friends, right? It's like, look at, look at her art, right? But when you're trying to look for an artist for any. I mean, I guess the type of project obviously matters, but just in general, how would you approach that? Because I think a lot of times it's very difficult when you might not be someone who has much artistic instinct to even understand is what is fair, what is going, Is this person good or not? Where do I go to find good people? So how do you recommend going about that?

How do you find good people? Word of mouth, I think, which is hard when you're a new artist trying to make break into it. Which I guess for me, once again, I broke into it with my own books because, well, it's smart though.

I mean, like.

But now I have a portfolio, right? Like, I can open my book and say, okay, this is what I can do for Gold Thrill. This is what I can do for edges. This is what I can do for like end papers. And I can. But also having gone through the process of the printing, I'm able to be like, okay, I've worked with these companies, I understand the formatting of it and you know, like, everything's self taught. And most artists are actually self taught. But on finding them, like Instagram, like, if you look at a lot of actually book boxes, like if you follow book boxes, they often will tag their artists. So that would be a good way to find reliable artists. Because you know that by the time, because I only just this year got into a book box that keeps hiring me now, which is really nice because that was my goal. It's like I want to get into book boxes because they're consistently hiring people, but that's one way to find artists. So if you have, I don't know, other genres, Romantasy has a lot of book boxes and romance and stuff. So, you know, find a book box that's kind of like your style and then they will take their artists, you know, like always. And you know that when they're hiring the artist, then the artist also has reputations for consistently delivering because, I don't know, book boxes, I guess are like that next level for an artist to achieve versus just being hired directly by indie authors. But yeah, Instagram, I guess ArtStation or DeviantArt could be other venues of finding artists. I'm not really on there much, so I can't really speak too much, but that is where I found my artist. Actually was on ArtStation, I think. No. DeviantArt. Yeah, one of the two. I mean you could ask Reddit, but honestly, like word of mouth, like I think if you're going to do it for campaigns, there's a Kickstarter group and they have like a folder or something of artists that the authors recommend. And you know, like if you, you know, not all artists, we're kind of wacko group, I guess, and we don't always necessarily know the technical stuff. So it's very important for the author to come and say, hey, I want to do this kind of genre. Like cozy are very, you know, block art. And if you see my style, I don't do cozy style. I can and I often will have authors ask me because it's like, but for me that's like. But that's only like step two. Why would you stop there? Anyways, that's cozy. But you know, if you want a cozy artist, it's important to look at their Instagram because most artists do have Instagram. There's actually another app called Cara App, I think it is where a lot of like when Meta announced their AI scraping, a lot of artists moved there. So it's an app buy artists for artists, but for people who commission art as well. So that's also a really good resource for finding artists. But yeah, you have to like the style. Honestly, like, I'm a very intuitive person. If I don't like it, I'm not going to buy it. And chances are if you like it, it's going to fit with your genre. And don't be afraid to ask for portfolios from an artist. Right. Even if it's personal work. If anything, I would actually ask personal work first because if you're going to ask them what their personal work is, they're going to be like, you're going to be my best friend because so if they can create something that they love, you're going to get the best work from them. Right. Versus asking the artist to do a different style. You're going to be like, yes, I can do it. I can do many things with art I can do. But my strikes, my. If it strikes my passion, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do extra stuff and get.

All so much sense. You can do something that's like in your wheelhouse as an artist. You're gonna be way more excited about that project. And you mentioned the topic of AI a few times and AI is absolutely been a huge change that's come to the world, period. But especially has impacted A lot of artists. How. How have you been navigating the change? It seems like you've been a taking trying to get your work away from being scraped by AI. But as a business owner, because you're not. You're not just creating art, you're also in the business of art. How impacted you and how are you navigating it?

Yeah, it's like turbulent waters in a storm. I don't know if I have it figured out. I'll be honest. One of the things, like I said, my initial thing was switching over to back a kit versus Kickstarter because they have a no AI policy. So I don't mind competing beside other artists because I know they put in the time and effort to learn their craft. In fact, I've part of so many of the topias, which are their group events, where it is a group of people creating the same thing.

I didn't realize that's like a full thing as cuny. Like an art challenge, essentially. Like let's.

Yeah, well, so like right now it's Booktop Printopia. So it's like all these different books and we're all launching exactly the same time and we're cross promoting to each other. And you know, so there's this real community, I guess in Backer kit that I love. So that was my first switch was actually going from Kickstarter to Backerkit the moment that Kickstarter said, yeah, yeah, we don't care about AI. Okay.

So no, I'm very good to hear.

So I am very.

Perspectives to be heard. And I think it's.

Yeah, yeah. I've decided that from my personal brand, I refuse to have anything that's AI or generative AI. I should specify this. You know what, I think our spellcracker stuff are AI too. But you know what I mean, right? I don't agree with generative AI because of this. Unless until there's like, you know, standards and people compensating artists. I did initially take on all my art from.

I think it took me one at.

A time to delete all my pictures from Facebook and Instagram because you have to do one at a time. And I had thousands on there. But just also, you know, like my clients, I need to protect them. Like I can't just have stuff out there. So that was my initial gut reaction, was just take it down and kind of figure this out one step at a time. Now I'm back to like, I'll resize my art and I'll glaze and night shade. It And I'll just. I used to share high definite. My high resolution stuff. Now I don't. So I'm trying to. Because yeah, it's like you have to be present but you also don't want to be stolen from. And it's like a really hard balance to reach. I don't have a good answer for you other than my own integrity that I can.

When you say just everyone listening, what exactly are those processes?

So they're programs created by I think the University of Chicago and you download them for free. So they made it available for free. They're quite GPU intensive programs because that's the other reason I took it down. I couldn't run it on my old computer because I need a lot of GPU to run. And basically I think. And I might mix them up, one of them kind of like distorts the pixels. So to the human eye it still looks like it proper image but to a computer it looks like distorted. So it's something that stops AI from copying your style because you know how people can say, oh, I want to be able to able to create an art that's like this famous artist. Well, that's copyright theft. No blatant. Right. But so glaze protects against that theft because like it's taken me 10 years to get to my style that looks like this. Right. My whole life really. Because I started when I was a kid and to be able to protect that, especially because my brand is how I look. So if someone can just go and copy my brand. So that's glazing and then night shading is basically the same process. You put the image in and it poisons it. It'll. To the computer AI, it looks like a purse. Even though the picture is that of a person. I don't know, it's ones and zeros. And I don't really understand the ins and outs of it. But that's the idea behind it is that it is a type of protection for your art online. But it is very time intensive because each image I think it's five minutes to nightshade and five minutes to glaze at the lowest intensity. The more protection you want, it can go up to an hour per image, which is why I haven't done it thousands of pictures that would be.

Take a long time. But also that's really good people to know. And when I'm an author commissioning an artist.

Yes.

And I go, hey, Serena.

Hey.

Anyone? I want you to make my art. And now it's time for me to share.

Yeah.

As an artist, you know what is your preference? Is your preference for me as an author to basically if I'm going to share online use these programs that it protects it. Is that like best for everyone?

So I guess for me I have a different philosophy when people hire me for their work. I think the protect, yes, I would like it if they did. But I know not everyone. I mean I didn't have a computer until recently that could even run these programs. But honestly at that point it's your art. Do you want people to copy it? Do you care? Do you not? Because you're also a business, you need to be able to your art that you hire an artist to do, that's an asset that's going to sell your books. So you're going to want to share it. I personally always give my authors two sized images. I give them the high resolution, I mark it as print and I give them a low resolution. I probably should take the next step and actually nightshade and glaze it. But I haven't remembered to do that because I'm very forgetful. But I probably should do that for them anyways. But that'll be my next setup of something. But yeah, honestly, like I say use your art, you know, even if it's my art, you're the one that paid for it. You're probably going to mock it up with something else anyways and use a smaller file. You're not going to put your high resolution stuff online because. Yeah, so you're going to, you know, because you're going to run into book brush or these other like book mock ups or something like that which will condense the size anyways. So I think you're fine. No, I think to do that.

What's really inspiring about you is a how you have. No one even knows fully what we're adapting to here. But like you, you've been able to like continue on and I think the brand that you've built and even like Derby Dragons and the story behind those products is like just, it's amazing. And I think that that too is like a really like great way to protect yourself as an artist. Because like when you build those fans like people do, they're not going to go get derpy Dragons from somewhere else. They want, they want your derpy Dragon and that really means something. And on that point I've noticed you have more than just pins for Derby Dragons. You have any other products that you sell. I'm curious, like what, why those specific products? Pillows. I saw all these other things. Why Those products. And how do you do that? Is it print on demand? Because, like. Yeah, okay.

Yeah. So with the exception of my pins, everything's print on demand. And I like the pillows because they're. I'm a tactile person and they're like velvety soft and I like soft things. Same with the blankets. It's like. So the things that actually make it on my website are things I personally love because I will, like, print samples of everything. So like half, like a dirty dragon T shirt on too. But I haven't added those to my store yet because I'm still trying to figure out how to set up the store to make it more. Not just like, all the stuff anyways. So I don't know. I try it first. If I love it, I put it on my website kind of thing. Like, I have these. Com. I don't even have them in the room, but like the computer bikes and they're like soft and velvety on the inside and they're really sick. And they're like, like waterproof, I guess, on the outside, not for, like, soaking, but they're really nice. And like walking around, like with my computers and have these. So I also think as branding for me, it's like I do everything I can to wear my derpy dragons to sell myself in public. Like, I'm presenting this image, but I'm very casual. So it's like T shirts and pants. Like, it's not exactly like, it's not like a Lululemon brand. I don't even know what rantings are anymore. But, you know, I tell my. I have one author, she printed my art on a T shirt for herself.

Yeah.

Because, you know, the art is of her book. Right. So when she goes to markets, she wears this because, you know, it's her brand. It's her. And you know, like, you can easily sell it. Like, if you look at websites and stuff, you can sell T shirts easily. I use both a Canadian company called Art of Wear as well as, so, you know, places that integrate with Shopify, basically, because this is my layer. It's tiny. I don't want to stock thousands of shirts here. Pins are okay because they're tiny, but even they're running out of room in my I love it studio here. So, you know, being. Yeah, it's got dragons and art and I love it.

It's beautiful rocking chair. And when commissioning someone and let's say I want to work with you, the difference between if I'm using your art on my book cover versus maybe down the line, I fall in love with your art and go, I do want to make that art into merch, or I want to use it on a coffee mug or other products. How do I make sure it's fair for both of us in terms of the rights to that usage? And especially when I might not know how I want to use the art, I know that I want to start it. How does it. How do I start?

Talk to your artist when I'm working.

With you or any artist.

Okay, yes. So talk to your artist. Some artists, like I said, are very specific on what you can or can't use the art for. I personally, I don't want to be, like, hunting people down, like, oh, you sold this cup with a picture I drew you about your characters. I don't want to be a police. Like, I'm an artist. I'm not a enforcer. So I personally actually have a. I have a flat rate. I don't. And I encourage my authors to, you know, expand and brand and build a thing because once again, if that's successful for them, they're going to come back and hire me again. Right. So, you know, like, I work with my. Like, I get hired to make pin designs for people I get hired to make. Because a pin design can be a sticker, it can go in a bookmark, it can go as chapter headers. So, like, one little commission can be so many things. And I mean, like, my dream was actually to be a cover artist. I didn't know it, but, like, I got, like, the Wayfarer Redemption series as a kid, and I'm like, man, one day I want to be, like, this artist. I want to create like him, and I want my pictures on the books and, you know, like, being able, like, for me to create cover art and even interior art for books is like, a dream come true. So, of course I'm going to want you to make more stuff. And I know it's like people have tattooed my art and stuff on their bodies and, like, what kind of compliment is there than that that's you're wearing my art on your skin forever? Yeah, it's like. It's like, yeah, I. You know, you can say, hey, because, you know, if you keep using it, oh, because you know that author is going to talk to another author and be like, oh, where'd you get that from? It's like, oh, yeah, I got it from her. And if they see these authors use their art in more ways and make money from it, then, you know, again, that's word of mouth that comes back to me. So that's a really.

I like really. I think that's such, such a beautiful mindset and I think the, the sort of takeaway is like, you know, always have an upfront and honest conversation with whoever you're working with. I love it. You've done so many cool things. The oracle deck too. Like that was. Yeah, yeah. After that you're just like photography oracle. You're basically like just almost. It's almost like you have your own like weirdling like store of just like all the cool things in there.

Yeah. It's definitely. I call it creative chaos because. And it's funny because you mentioned in your initial email that you want to talk about branding and my cohesive brand. I'm like, what, what the hell is that? Really struggle.

Fantastic.

And my illness. Yeah, well, and. But I also really love doing the not safer art. So I don't want to do just derpy dragons. They're mine. Right. They're not something I want to sell I guess to other people. So for me the derpy dragons are sort of my ip. But when I, I really like drawing, I love drawing people and fantasy and dragons obviously, but it's like that's kind of the stuff I want to draw more of. But I don't know. Yeah, fitting my photography band I guess. I suppose my art is quite dark even with my photography and sort of fantasy based. So maybe that's a tie in.

Yeah.

Or just art books. But I have a art book coming up where I'm actually going to combine my photography and illustration and hopefully that'll be a branch of like how people find you and where they come into your community and your brand is like. So I'm hoping that's going to be the hybrid that applies.

No, I think, I think you're, I think you're doing great. I mean you're also showing that like again you don't have to stick in one lane. You can be in many different lanes as long as you like tell the right story.

When you're in lane.

This, this has been amazing. I would love for you to share where we can all find your books, your art, all the awesome things you've created.

Yeah. So if you want to buy stuff actually and commission artwork or book a photo shoot, my website is probably the place to go. It's just Triena T H E R E N A CA and everything's on there. But if you want to talk and visit and really hang out with me, I've gone, I have my Patreon, where. That's where I have the conversations with my. That's where I share all my art. So there's different tiers for, like, not. Not safe for work, as well as exclusive stuff. But I do share all my therapy dragons there. And that's where I talk with all my backers and my fans between campaigns is my Patreon, which is just patreon.com.

Yeah, I'll link to it all.

And I'm on Instagram.

I'll link it all down.

So.

Yeah, no, it's. It's perfect. It's great. We. We need all the places. Yeah. And I. I was able to show people, like, some on screen, so they'll be able to see some of your amazing art. But there's definitely a lot of fun to be had, and I think it's just inspiring to see, like, where you can ultimately take a story, take an idea and bring it to life beyond the book, which you've got. So thank you so much for being here.

This was wonderful.

Yeah, yeah. No, thanks for having me.

Enjoyed this episode of podcast.

There we go.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the beyond the Book podcast. It's just so much fun. I love you all. I love that I get to host this podcast, and I'm super excited for more awesome things beyond the Book. Please send me in any guest recommendations that you would like to see. I have some really cool guests coming up that I'm really, really pumped for. But in the meantime, this is an amazing pod. I'm super grateful to Tharina. She's amazing. And I know I'm not pronouncing her name correctly, and you should. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. But y' all have a great one. And as always, don't forget, together we are boundless.