Alana and I discuss Lord of the Flies

Um, so yeah, congrats at the end of the school year. How, how does the school year go for you?

It went great. Um, I had a really good time. Um, you know, I loved my group. I think they were awesome, and I loved what we were doing. Um, I think I've grown a lot.

Wonderful. Were you in the group that was reading Frankenstein?

No, I wasn't.

Okay, I think that's an older group. Um, I'm very curious, did you finish Lord of the Flies?

I did.

Wow, so tell me about that.

Um, well, the end was, um, very exciting. Um, there was— or they— if— yeah, they started to have like a mini war between two groups of the boys. And they like killed maybe 2 of the boys and they were hunting one down. And then right at the end, when the guy's about to get caught, the officer comes and rescues him. It's— it was— it gave me— it was really exciting.

It's interesting you use the adjective exciting. I might have used the adjective horrible. Would you say both exciting and horrible?

I think so.

Did you see the end coming at all, or were you completely surprised at where it was going?

I mean, I was— I didn't really see, uh, the war coming, or sort of, um, or I didn't— I think one of the things that surprised me the most about her, that was more toward the ending was how, uh, they killed one of the boys, or two of the boys, and they didn't— or one group didn't really act like they cared, which was kind of barbaric to me because they're like my age, maybe a little older.

Exactly, exactly. That's why I said horrific, but barbaric is another really good term for it all. Um, and it's interesting you did not see it coming. Would you say that, uh, in retrospect, now that you know how it ends, you saw— you see hints earlier along, or do you think that it just sort of comes out of nowhere?

Well, I mean, I think I didn't— well, I didn't— well, now that I know the ending, I couldn't— I still might not if I was still reading it, see what would exactly happen. But if I thought— I think about the characters more, then I might have seen something like this happen.

Do you think this is a realistic portrayal of middle school age students, or is it kind of over the top exaggerated?

Uh, not the ones I know. Uh, not the middle school students I know. Um, I mean, if we were— if I was stuck on a stranded island with a bunch of boys or girls, I mean, it's— I think things would— might have turned out differently, either maybe just because we're in a different age Um, or it depends on the relationship between the kids, because I think what sparked the barbaric ending, uh, was the relationship between the two groups. And I think if they tried harder to maybe keep it sort of neutral, then that might have not happened.

Do you think there would be any difference between groups of girls and groups of boys, or no difference at all?

I mean, there— I think there would be a difference just because I've heard a lot, I don't know, uh, um, different— or maybe different genders act different. I'm not completely sure, but I think it would have turned out different.

What would you— what would your expectation be if it was girls rather than boys?

Well, if it was girls, then at least I would try and make peace with other girls and not go and kill them, because that's not really smart, I don't think, especially when you're on a stranded island and don't know when anybody's gonna come and rescue you. Um, So I, I think hopefully the other girls, if I was stranded with them, would have some sort of sense like that too. Um, I'm not sure what the thinking process would be for boys, but they— or at least the characters in the book didn't really— or kind of moved away from that thinking in the— toward the end.

So do you think the problem is they moved away from thinking, and if they had been thinking more carefully, none of this would have happened?

Maybe. I think so.

Um, that's a nice hopeful thought. I, I like the hopefulness of that thought. Um, have you ever heard the expression human nature?

I have. I just don't quite know what it means.

So one of the reasons I was really excited about you reading Lord of the Flies is it's really famous book. It's a classic. But one of the reasons is for centuries, you know, The Lord of the Flies is less than a century old, but for centuries people have been debating whether human nature is mostly positive or mostly negative. And one way to think about that, this is, will groups of human beings on their own tend to be, treat each other well, or will they tend to treat each other badly? And of course, Lord of the Flies is one where they end up treating each other badly. And so part of the debate is, is this a realistic understanding of human nature or not? And, you know, you can see why. Well, does it make sense to you that it's kind of important whether human nature tends to be mostly positive or tends to be mostly negative?

Well, I think it shows why it's important to have, um, at least, uh, well, I think it does show how it's important to have one over the other, um, but I think there's a lot of both in— or from my understanding, there's a lot of both in human nature. I mean, there's wars, and then there's also things that we do for kindness and stuff like that.

I was going to ask, kind of along the lines of wars, is, would you say that you're very familiar with some of the bad things people have done to each other in history?

I think I have some. I'm, I'm an amateur on things like that, but I do know most of the bigger stuff.

Why do you think in the real world history people have done such bad things from time to time?

Um, I mean, there's a lot of their own feelings involved, I think, for those who do it. There's their pride, and then there's things they hate and things they like. And I think that those who have power use those as, or as decision makers.

So pride and things they hate, did you say anything else?

Uh, well, I think those two are part of it. Things that they like could also influence their decisions on what to do, but I think, um, like people that they hate, regions that they hate cultures, um, and then something comes out of that.

So just using your analysis of human history in general, pride, things they like, things they hate, does that apply to The Lord of the Flies? Does that explain why things turned out so badly in that particular story?

I think that story especially has to do with pride, uh, because it really— it was the feud was really just between the two boys, and then it kind of grew into groups. And it was just because one was a hunter and one was not, but the other one was chief and they both had pride in their positions and they thought one was better than the other. And I think that's why they sort of split.

So if pride can lead to murder and ultimately war, is there anything we can do about that, or is pride part of the human condition Is pride part of human nature? And because human beings tend to be pride— can be, can do horrible things through pride, we're just sort of stuck with human beings sometimes doing horrible things?

Well, unless somebody can change that, then probably it might just go in a cycle. But for those who do have the discipline to sort of stop themselves, or stop things from turning out how they did in Lord of the Flies. Well, I mean, then that's a better but probably harder for most people solution.

So some people have the discipline to stop themselves from, um, becoming too prideful?

I think so, if they're more aware of their surroundings and how they're affecting other people and what their pride is doing to them in general.

That sounds a little bit like becoming more thoughtful again. And earlier, it sounds like you're saying becoming more thoughtful about the consequences of decision— decisions would have reduced the, the down— downward spiral of Lord of the Flies. Now it sounds like you're also saying becoming more thoughtful about, um, one's own pridefulness. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Um, and then again, I'm curious, do you think pride, uh, but both boys and girls are equally prone to pride, or pride in the same way? It couldn't be a defect for boys, both boys and girls, or does it differ?

Well, I mean, I'm not sure if there's any studies on that or anything, but I guess my first thought would be it could affect it equally just because, uh, no matter the gender, we're all humans, and I think humans have that sense of pride.

So it sounds like in some ways, you know, there's the hopeful side is that if we can get people to be more thoughtful about consequences of their behavior, and if we can get people to be more thoughtful about their own pridefulness, maybe we can get individual people to be less prone to downward spirals into murder and war. Well, actually, there's a premise there. What I was going to say is that, but it seems like it keeps going and going and going in history. I guess I'm wondering, do you think that what we see in Lord of the Flies could be a microcosm of what ultimately becomes war in larger-scale societies?

I think it can be. Those two rivalries that the boys had can if it was in the real world, and probably with two full-grown men with armies, could lead to a war. Um, and usually it's just between them. Nobody else, maybe besides a few people, has any problems with the other. It's just two guys, or in this case two guys, or maybe three, who don't like each other. They kind of separate, and then they kind of hate each other even more because someone does something and then the other reacts that way, uh, and then it gets, uh, worse because they are not very, uh, or because they're not paying attention to anything around them.

Well, I was going to ask, why do you think the other boys were not able to stop this descent into violence?

Um, I think It's one, because they were scared because both boys had power, had a high place in the hierarchy of the boys there. Um, one was a hunter and one was the chief of the original tribe. Um, and if they did, I think the other boys were scared of being rejected out of both groups or just the group they were in in general. I think that's why they didn't do anything.

So, you know, obviously I want to stop bad things from happening in the world or have fewer bad things happening happen in the world. And if we take Lord of the Flies seriously as an accurate depiction of human nature, then for me at least, the question becomes, okay, you know, sometimes when you read about wars in history, it's these really big forces, this big historical force and that big historical force. For me personally, what's interesting about Lord of the Flies is we kind of get into the psyches of individual boys on each side. Would you agree with that?

Yes.

In which case, okay, we could say we wish those leaders had been more thoughtful. We wish they'd saw the— seen the consequences. But then we go to everybody else who did not stop it. Is it unfair to say that they were cowardly, or is that not fair? Is that kind of too harsh on the boys who did not stop it to say that they were cowardly?

Well, in a sense, their fears were valid, but they also didn't stand up for anything. So I think in a sense you could call them cowardly or scared or just not willing to stand up because they were afraid for themselves.

So how do we make people less cowardly then?

Um, well, I think it helps to see in— or for the cowardly people to see— or be— they were afraid of the leaders, uh, if they stand up to them. Um, so I think if that cowardly person just saw that the leaders were either weak or too stubborn, or they thought that they could, or they could handle being rejected from that person, and that might boost their confidence.

So that, that again, I like optimistic directions. I guess what I'm thinking, I forget the names of the, the two boys who it's leader. Who, who, what were the names of the two boys?

Jack and Ralph, I think.

Jack and Ralph. Thank you. Thank you. So if, so you, one way we can accuse the other boys of being cowardly and you're saying, hey, if they saw that you could stand up against Jack or Ralph and be okay, then they would have more courage and other boys would have more courage and maybe that's how we stop the violence. Is that kind of an accurate description of how you see potentially the other boys stopping it?

Yes.

In which case, which makes sense, but in which case, I guess my concern would be, suppose somebody tries to stand up to Jack or Ralph and they punish them harshly. Harshly. I guess my concern would be then everybody would be really afraid of Jack or Ralph because they, somebody did try to stand up to them and they were punished harshly. Is that a legitimate concern?

Yes, I think so.

So now what do we do? We have, you know, maybe Alana is the hero who stands up to a Jack or Ralph in a real social situation, and Alana is punished harshly. Uh-oh, how do we stop the violence now?

Yeah.

Do you have a solution, or are we stuck?

I mean, I don't have one. I think it's just a cycle that keeps going where one stands up and then something happens and then the others are afraid.

Well, this is, you know, I don't want to be depressing on a beautiful Sunday morning, but this is kind of depressing. Wouldn't you say it's kind of depressing?

I think so, yeah.

I mean, I would like to live in a world where the good wins and evil loses. Make sense?

Yes.

I mean, I think in all, most, you know, hero stories, you know, I think human beings, certainly human beings, I'll put you and I in the same bucket. I think human beings like you and I like to see good win and evil lose. So what you're saying is there may be some situations like Jack and Ralph in Lord of the Flies where possibly evil is going to win no matter what? Is that a possibility?

I think it is a possibility in that story. Um, yes.

Uh-oh.

Well, evil has so much power.

So then maybe the solution— again, I always like to— and maybe there is no solution, but I always like to try to think of solutions. Um, what if then, uh, the solution is not to get— let Jack or Ralph get to the point where they have so much power. Is that a potential solution?

Yes, but I think it would be hard because those two, or at least just Jack, has so a lot of power over his group already, um, because I think without him, without him being their leader, they would kind of be broken. Um, and broken in the sense where they don't have Jacknair to sort of tell them what to do, because they joined his group because he hunts— he and other hunters hunt meat, which probably signifies that he's the best hunter. Um, and so without him, they'd go into some sort of problem or problematic situation. But I think kind of keeping his power, in a sense, down is a good idea because that way they still sort of have a leader, but he doesn't get too out of control.

Well, and I like the fact that you brought it back around to a positive outcome. But what I'm also hearing you say is that maybe there are some circumstances where we need to give a leader a certain amount of power I mean, one way of interpreting what you just said is, hey, because, you know, Jack was able to, you know, get them to this point where they had the meat and could survive, they had to give Jack that power. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Yes, I think so.

And then once we had to give, so just hypothetically, if we were part of this tribe and of course, or a group of boys and we can both pretend to be middle school boys. If we were there, we had to give Jack the power, and once we had to give him that power, then there's nothing we can do at that point. Is that right?

Well, you could have some influence on him and how Jack uses his power. Um, I think that if you got close to him um, or just kind of had a regular influence on him because you were his friend or something, you know, things like that. But you might not be able to control him completely.

So, um, so just again on our imaginary situation where we're part of these boys, maybe you and I recognize— if we're thoughtful, maybe we see what's happening, and maybe we can both work together and talk to Jack and try to get him keep him from letting things escalate? You think that's a possible thing, scenario?

I think so.

But it sounds like you're also thinking it's a possible scenario that even if together we tried to work on Jack to keep him from escalating, we might have failed and he might have gone the same way anyway.

Yes. Well, then if that happens, then, well, I mean, I guess we didn't do it hard enough. Um, if— because if we were in their situation and he got too much power and— but he had influence over him, uh, then it might have just turned out the same way as it did with them hunting down Ralph.

Yeah, no, I would say— I would say these are hard problems. Would you agree these are hard problems?

Yes, definitely.

Um, and at the same time, if we think that the scenario in Lord of the Flies is related to the real world, that is, if— and we don't have time to kind of unpack the ways in which Lord of the Flies scenario might be accurate in some situations, might not be accurate in other situations. But if we think at least sometimes those sorts of social dynamics might be an accurate reflection of how conflict in the real world takes place, then And war is unbelievably horrible. War is just unbelievably horrible. But if we want to stop, and violence is horrible, you know, I'm glad that you can read a book as horrible as Lord of the Flies and it seems like you're not traumatized or anything. But in the real world, it's horrible. And so for me, that really makes me want to figure out how can we think through this to decrease the probability that these bad things, because they're bad things happening right now in the world, there will be bad things happening 10 years from now in the real world. You know, again, one interpretation is, hey, if bad things just happen and we can do our best to try to stay out of those bad things. The other possibility is maybe there's something we human beings can do to reduce the amount of bad things. Do you have any sense one way or another? Is it just bad things happen and we have our best to stay out of them, or do you think that we human beings can reduce the extent to which bad things happen?

Well, I mean, I think both are possible. It's just the one where— or the second one might be just a bit harder because if— I mean, if we all— there's— if we started that movement of trying to stay out of wars, I'm just using that as an example, then there's always going to be one person that doesn't listen and sort of follows his or her own rules and doesn't really care about what other people think. I think there's always that one person who sort of sparks another movement.

Got it. I take it you don't mind talking about these issues. It doesn't bother you to talk about these things?

No.

Okay. I'm really— I am very passionate about this. Again, I want less violence in the future. Less violence in the present. And I do think that Lord of the Flies is insightful. Again, it might not be completely accurate, but I think there's something there, which is why people keep reading it. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So, you know, in respect to the fact it's a Sunday morning on Memorial Day weekend, but I feel as if you're kind of becoming, you know, a young adult where you're dealing with the harshness of violence. And, uh, is— would you say Lord of the Flies is maybe the harshest book you've read, or have you ever read a book as harsh as that before?

Um, I mean, I think since it has sort of a real-world sense, yes, because I've read a book, a lot of books with violence, or— but it's more fantasy, it's fiction. But this has more of a sort of reality to it.

Exactly. That's my, that was my expectation is that yeah, in violence, oh, you know, like in Tolkien, okay, the orcs die. Do we really care if the orcs die? No, we want the orcs to die. And sometimes good, good, the good guys die. And that's sad, but it is sort of fantasy. And I just mentioned Tolkien because it's, you know, one of the fantasies I know best. You've read many fantasies that I don't know very well. But, but yeah, Lord of the Flies, I would say you can almost imagine this happening in real life. Is that too, too much? Or would you say you could almost imagine it happening in real life?

I think I could.

Yeah. And there are some cases, and we might read them later, where real groups of kids have been, you know, left in the wilderness together, and sometimes they actually work together well. So you can also have a positive outcome. That's why I say one of the reasons it's debated is it's, it's not definite that the bad thing will happen. But I think what's scary is it seems possible a bad thing will happen. And so it's sort of like on this edge of, uh-oh, this could happen. How do we make sure that bad thing doesn't happen? Does that make sense?

Yes.

Okay. Well, again, I don't want to leave you with, you know, scary or horrifying thoughts on a Sunday morning. Um, but, uh, what are you going to do today for fun?

Uh, we're going to go out and maybe go to the tide pools today. Um, I'm just excited for the summer. I have a lot of plans.

Of course. I'll get into that another time, but tide pools are so wonderful. So enjoy the tide pools, and, um, we'll talk again soon.

All right. Thanks, Michael.

You're welcome. Bye.

See you.