Alana spontaneously citing evidence

That's good.

So yeah, what was the last chapter you got up to?

Oh, I think I read up to 47, so—

and I don't remember, I don't remember by name. So what was going on in 47?

Uh, a lot of things happened before 47, but I feel like the major thing and tension that arose and kind of solved a bunch of conflicts and problems that was mysterious was that we find out that, um, Jane and Frank are engaged secretly, and, uh, that makes Emma feel horrible because she's been like kind of bullying Jane a little bit. She thinks it's teasing, but it's actually bullying, uh, and she realizes that earlier on, um, and that also messes up a bunch of possible matchmaking things that she has, even though she said she'd, uh, stopped doing it. She really hasn't. And that's because her ego hasn't been flattened yet, but it will soon, or once she finds out. She did find out, so I see.

So where you are is that, um, uh, Emma does not yet know that Jane and, uh, Frank are getting together?

Oh, she does know. She does know.

Okay, got it, got it. Um, well, first, were you surprised?

Um, yes, because I thought it was going to be something different. I know there was like this weird sort of familiarity maybe, and like tension between Jane and Frank after the incident with the, with the blocks and he spelled out Dixon or something. And I think I remember who Dixon is. I think he married someone that Jane knew, like her best friend or something. And I remember Emma was gossiping about Jane and Dixon because she thought that Jane was in love with Dixon, but that's not the case and she didn't know that. So she feels very embarrassed now. And yeah.

For a while, my understanding is you were thinking Emma and Frank would get together?

Yeah, I did. I thought that, but that's not anymore.

So do you think that they were on track to get together or that you misread that? Or how do you— now that you know that Frank and Jane are a couple. What do you make of the apparent Frank and Emma match?

Um, I thought— my first thought that maybe he was flirting with her to like get at Jane a little bit because she seems so quiet and like blushing all the time a little bit. Um, but I don't really understand why he would do that.

Okay. Do you think that perhaps Frank and Emma actually liked each other for a while?

Yeah, yes, maybe. And that's why I thought something there was going to happen. But then plot twist, it can't. Or maybe it will, they'll break it up, but probably not.

Aha, so you're open to the possibility that Frank could break up with Jane and end up with Uma?

I feel like that would be— but if that was the way to end the book, I would feel kind of unsatisfied because where does Jane go? She's kind of leaving, or he left her hanging. So I don't know.

Interesting, interesting. Um, I think it was on last, last call you introduced me to a, um, a term—

oh, plot armor.

Plot armor, yes. So which I think it's a very interesting term. So in light of what you're calling plot armor, do you think at this point in the book, um, Jane and Frank are necessarily bound? Are you saying that if Frank left Jane and went to Emma now, that would mess things up, or, uh, is there a way around that?

I'm not sure if it's plot armor that protects Jane because she's not necessarily the main character. She's one of them, maybe one of the main characters, but she's not the main character. Sometimes it can apply, but I'm not sure how it would apply here because things end up weird for her either way. I feel like the only character who would really be protected by plot armor is Emma or Knightley, but let's just talk about Emma first. Emma, I don't know, I just feel like for the book to end, something good's got to happen to Emma. She's got to get over that moral climax that we were talking about earlier.

Got it. And just to be clear, what are you referring to as the moral climax?

Oh, uh, we— I think we were talking about how, oh, she's gonna like— or her ego's so big and she's gonna realize that she's not that big, and then she's gonna be at a low point, which I think she's at her low point right now, and then she's gonna rise up slowly, and then that's where the book will end.

I see. So your, your kind of, um, narrative arc here is that the story is fundamentally about Emma's moral growth. Is that a good way to put it?

Uh, that's one of the plots for sure, because she is like down and damaged right now, so she's like—

and, and by moral growth, I mean, you know, you're saying her ego is so big in the beginning of the book, she's like matchmaking all over the place, and she messes up Harriet's life and all of that.

Yeah. And so that's interesting.

Part of, part of your notion of Uh, so the plot armor is that Emma is the protagonist. Emma has to end up in some sense well at the end, uh, because she's our protagonist. But part of getting Emma to a place of ending up well is actually— I'll use the language— beating up her ego a bit so she's less egocentric, um, and then maybe morally educated after she's learned some humility. Is that right?

Yeah. Yes, for sure.

And would you say this point at which, uh, Emma discovers that Frank and Jane are actually getting together is, uh, humiliating for Emma's ego?

Yes, um, for a couple different reasons. One is that she was teasing/bullying Jane before, and she feels horrible about that because she didn't know that there was a secret relationship between the two. Um, also, I think she was like setting up Harriet and Frank before because Frank did like saved her from gypsies. I don't really know what those are, but people, from people. Um, and she was like, oh, you and Frank would be the perfect match. Um, which I thought was weird because I thought she was really lowborn and Frank's really rich, I think. So I don't know. Um, but, and then she feels, and then she's like, oh my God, Jane and Uh, Frank, you're engaged. I have to go tell Harriet. Oh my God, I messed something up with— another thing up with Harriet. But then she goes to Harriet, and Harriet's like, oh, I was never in love with Frank. I was in love with Mr. Knightley. And then Jane's even more hurt because she thought she would end up with Mr. Knightley. So now she's being— she groomed Harriet to be her rival. So she's like, I'm a failure. Just a little bit.

Slow down. Um, now you skipped over to Mr. Knightley, so tell me how you see Mr. Knightley's role, uh, in this.

Oh, uh, I'm not too sure where he stands, to be honest, but I know he's kind of being pulled between Harriet and Emma a little bit.

I see. Um, and so basically Frank and Jane are off the table unless there's a plot twist that you think is unlikely. But we've still got Harriet to deal with and Emma to deal with. Emma says she's not going to get married. Do you take her at her word? Do you think she's not going to get married?

Um, I'm not sure, uh, because there was like a little bit of foreshadowing with her and Knightley, but then Harriet comes into the— comes into play, and then it kind of messes everything up, so I'm not too sure.

Do we have any other eligible bachelors hanging out there?

Uh, no, I don't, I don't think so. I don't recall any.

So if you're correct, then basically we, now that we've kind of married off, uh, Jane and Frank, now we're stuck in this situation with Mr. Knightley is the only eligible bachelor, and, uh, Emma versus Harriet in terms of getting him. Is that too blunt?

Uh, no, that's correct. And I guess now that I remember that Emma did say that she wasn't going to marry— I mean, from a plot point, or from a— if you're looking at it just for the plot, then Harriet would marry Mr. Knightley. But if you're looking at love, then You know, you don't know.

Um, and explain that distinction, just looking at the plot versus looking at love. What do you mean by that?

Um, maybe instead of love, do the characters— I don't know, I guess what I meant was that if you're looking for a good plot and you're sticking to the things that have already been said, then Emma's not going to marry, and Knightley's going to marry Harriet because they're the only two people left.

Got it.

But if you're looking at Emma's feelings, then it might be the opposite.

And what leads you— again, I forget exactly where you left off— what leads you to think that Emma's feelings— I mean, A, she, you know, said she doesn't want to marry, and B, she has said through most of the book she has no interest in Mr. Knightley. So why are you all of a sudden pulling Emma's feelings into this?

Uh, I think two main reasons. Uh, one is when Harriet says that she's in love with Mr. Knightley, Emma gets kind of jealous. So maybe she just like never thought about it that way. And number 2, I think a little bit earlier, there was a scene where she danced with Mr. Knightley and things were flying high. So that's when I first thought that that may be a possibility, but I never really thought about it until she got all jealous.

Got it. Um, and if you had to bet, which way do you think things are going to go?

Oh, um, I mean, I don't really know, but I guess I would bet on someone else coming in really late for Harriet, and then Emma marries Knightley.

Got it. Um, I'm thinking back to Pride and Prejudice, and, uh, you know, the kind of dramatic arc there is Elizabeth doesn't like Darcy. And then kind of halfway through the book, she decides she does like Darcy. And then there are all these challenges with Lydia's elopement and all of that. And finally, after lots of obstacles, after not liking Darcy, then liking Darcy, then afraid she can't get Darcy, then happily ever after. Is that a fair assessment of Pride and Prejudice?

Yeah, basically.

So suppose hypothetically, This one starts with Emma's not going to get married, doesn't care about anybody for herself, just likes to matchmake others, messes up all the matchmaking, especially with Harriet. Then specifically when Harriet is excited about Knightley, all of a sudden Emma's interested in Knightley. Does—

Yes.

Do you see how Jane Austen, if you're correct, by the way, you see sort of a parallel in the romantic plotlines of the two?

Yes, for sure.

Do you think it's— do you like that kind of plotline?

Yes, because it shows that every character has faults and desires. So I think it's interesting.

Got it. And we talked last time about how Pride and Prejudice kind of moves a little bit faster than Emma. You know, Emma, Pride and Prejudice has a little bit of the blah, blah, blah, the balls. I'm being mean, but I think you and I agreed that it's kind of a slow start and then it starts rolling. Would you say that Emma is still kind of slow, or has Emma started— qua book— has Emma started to roll plot-wise?

Oh yes, yes, for sure it has.

I got it. Would you say that Jane Austen's kind of pacing of the plot is similar, or would you say it's slower in Emma, or how do you compare the two?

Um, it's a little similar, but in my opinion, it's Uh, in Pride and Prejudice, it was kind of like a, uh, but then in Emma, it's more of like slow and then slow rise, and then it like gets a lot, and then there's a really big climax after you find out that Jane and Frank are engaged.

Would you say that's kind of the first, you know, climactic event?

Yes. Yeah, for sure.

And it is, I do think, I don't know page-wise, but it does seem later in the book. My guess is the drama in Pride and Prejudice is maybe halfway through or slightly before halfway through, whereas I think this thing with Frank and Jane is two-thirds the way through, something like that. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Um, very interesting. Well, at this point, would you say you like Pride and Prejudice better, Emma better? Both equally, or you're going to wait and judge after you've completed Emma?

I think I'm going to judge after I've completed it, um, because I'm not sure how it's going to satisfy me yet. So we'll see.

Okay, that's good. Um, well, I would say, you know, it's, it's interesting. I would say it is kind of a slog in the first part, and this was a longer slog, uh, for me as well. But yeah, then once things start happening, then it's like super engaging. Um, and since I've read the book, I'll, I'll say, I would say it stays super engaging. You know, it's sort of like the ball starts rolling downhill. It's like plot-wise, they'll push it all the way up and then, whoom, then all the things start happening. Um, so you should have a lot of fun. Uh, anything else for now?

Uh, no, that's it.

All right, have fun with the rest of it and we'll talk, uh, on the finished book next time.

Okay, got it. Thank you.

You're welcome. Bye-bye.