In this YouTube interview, host SPEAKER A congratulates Karen on her recent tournament successes, where she and her brother each earned gold medals, and notes her top‑1% SAT verbal score. The conversation then shifts to Karen’s reading of Book I of Homer's Odyssey. Karen points out two passages that often go unnoticed: Telemachus’s doubt about having proof of Odysseus’s paternity, and Athena’s revelation to Telemachus that she is an immortal, which she interprets as a bird‑like transformation. She explains why Athena seems invested in Odysseus—she favored him in the Trojan War because of his strategic brilliance, aligning with her domain of war strategy. Karen treats the myth as a literary work rather than a literal belief system, describing the gods‑human interactions as novel‑like. She characterises Athena as both wise and potentially wrathful, noting her guidance of Telemachus. Karen describes Telemachus as initially defeated and uncertain about his father’s fate, but motivated by Athena to confront the suitors. The discussion moves to the moral framing of the suitors as villains and the satisfaction of Odysseus’s vengeance, which Karen finds fitting for the story’s context. She also reflects on the heroic qualities of Penelope and Telemachus, seeing them as heroic in their own ways. The interview ends with plans to continue reading the Odyssey and a brief mention of Karen’s SAT achievement.
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Hey, Karen, can you hear me?
Yes.
So first, big congrats. Tell us about how you did at the tournament.
Uh, thank you. So we are in Florida right now. The tournament, at least for us because our last team member competed, just ended. Um, both my brother and I got gold in our divisions, and, um, yeah, it was really, really fun. This was my 5th time winning, 6th time competing, 5th time winning, so that made it extra special. And yeah, I had a really, really fun time hanging out with all my friends and watching them compete, and especially watching my brother compete, because after 3 attempts, 1 silver and 2 bronzes, he finally got the win in his division, and that made me and us super duper happy. Yeah, so all in all, great It was a great weekend.
Terrific. Big congrats to you all. Yeah, and then did you get a chance to read Book 1 of The Odyssey?
I did, yes.
Excellent. Enjoy it, not enjoy it? How did it land for you?
I enjoyed it. I followed along pretty well. I had a couple lines that stood out that, like, didn't really get mentioned in the retellings that I've read. Just as a side, for example, there was a part when Telemachus was mentioning how he doesn't even have actual proof that Odysseus is his father because he's been gone for so long, and I just thought that that amplified or made it clear how long he's been gone and kind of amplifies the struggles. So I thought that was cool.
And you said there were several— what were the other examples?
The dialogue, there were a couple, I guess just one more other than that. When Athena was talking to Telemachus at the end, he mentioned that he knew that he was talking to an immortal. And I didn't know that, or that isn't mentioned in most of the retellings that I've read. So I thought that was a cool note.
Got it. As I recall, I think where he gets that is what looks like, I guess, an older man then becomes a bird and flies away. Is that how you understood that place? And that's how he knows it's an immortal?
Yes, it was something like that. Got it.
No, no, very good. And so you know how the story ends because you've heard these retellings, correct?
The book or the— like the book one or the entire book?
The entire book.
Yes, I do believe. But there's been different versions, so I'm not sure which one is that.
Got it. So first, um, yeah, let's start. I'm, I'm curious what you think of the relationship. I guess we haven't seen Athena and Odysseus himself, but what's your take on why Athena seems so interested? Um, you know, you'd think the gods are busy, Athena's got lots to do. Why do you think Athena cares about this Odysseus character?
Well, I think there's a couple reasons, one of which that comes to mind first is that she favored him in the war. So I know that maybe watching him suffer and struggle to get back home maybe pained her a little bit, especially now that Telemachus has grown up.
So you say a couple of reasons, that's one. Do you have any other reasons?
Oh, um, no, that's my main one.
Okay, and do you have any idea why she favored him in the war?
I believe it's because he was like the strategic one that always came up with the battle plans and things like that. And since she's the goddess of war strategy and that kind of thing, I think that's why she favors him.
Got it. And, you know, one of the things that's tricky about reading something that's so old and from such a different world is this whole notion of kind of gods and human beings interacting. So given that we live, you know, —one way to read this, I suppose, is just like a fantasy novel, where in fantasy novels we don't expect the rules of real life to apply, so we just take for granted whatever fantasy premises are happening. On the other hand, this was a kind of a poetic myth, and I think it's an open question to what extent the ancient Greeks believed in the gods. I mean, I would assume they kind of did in some sense, So how do you, how do you make sense of gods interacting with humans from— did you just think the ancient Greeks were weird people who believed this weird stuff, or is there any way to make sense of the god-human interactions?
Well, like you said, when I read it, I assume everything that they're saying is real about the gods and all the different characters and things like that. In real life, I don't worship any of the Greek gods. I know, I read about them though. There's a lot of different religions, so I'm not exactly dismissing it, but I treat it like a novel, I guess. Mm-hmm. Like you said.
Can you imagine a world in which these, the ancient Greeks in some sense took their own gods seriously, or is that kind of an unimaginable world?
Not too much because I'm surrounded by people who do worship like a god or gods, um, but maybe a little bit because these are gods that I haven't, um, been— I'm not surrounded with by people that actively worship them, things like that. Um, so it'd be a little different, but I could fathom it a little bit, I think.
Got it. And just as a person— well, even a personality is strange, but Does Athena— what can you tell about Athena's personality? Well, again, I'm just thinking it's a little bit odd to describe the personality of a god, but, you know, because in many ways she sort of is human-like and sort of has a personality, how would you describe her personality?
Well, not just based on this one book that I read, but in some myths she's like she's like full of rage, so I know that she can be very angry and not to mess with her. But, and then other myths, she's like super kind and caring and helpful and creative. And when she's talking to Telemachus, um, I'm not sure of exact words, but she seems really like wise and guiding, I guess.
I know. So yeah, I would say procedurally, it's probably good to separate what you've heard about Athena in other situations from what you're reading about Athena here, just because different authors and even different translators could have somewhat different versions. And so you can be informed by your other impressions, but yeah, just from what you've seen within Book 1 of the Odyssey so far, yeah, how would you describe her?
I think, well, and I've read her talking to Telemachus about her the possibility and what he thinks about his father being alive. And I'm— in my opinion, she seemed— well, foreboding isn't like a personality trait, but she was hinting to a lot of things. So she could be, I don't know, secretive or planning or guiding, I guess. She's helping Telemachus try and find his father-ish in those early stages. That's what I got from that first part.
Got it. And, you know, we get a little bit of Athena and Zeus in the very beginning. We get a little bit of Telemachus and his mom Penelope. We get a little bit about the suitors, but I would say maybe 80% of Book 1 is Telemachus and Athena. Does that seem like it? Yes. Yeah. I think so. And of those, do you find Telemachus more interesting or Athena more interesting or? What strikes you about those two personalities?
Um, one thing I noticed about Telemachus is that he seemed a bit defeated about his father being alive. So he was like, um, he was like, or he was talking about how like suitors have been like feasting on their stuff for years and years and he can't stop it because he's just a kid and he doesn't know if his father's even his father, if he, or like if he's dead or alive and no one's told him. So that kind of set the tone for his thoughts a bit. Um, then I know at the end, like, Athena spurs him on and, like, gives him courage or something to stand up to the suitors. And then now I believe he's going to go on a mission to try and find out more about Odysseus. Um, so there's some involvement from, from Athena in there. I think, um, that was interesting. And then reading more about his thoughts on Odysseus was interesting as well.
Got it. Well, since you've already, um, You know, you know versions of the story, so I'll— spoiler alert— at the end Odysseus comes back and kills all the suitors. And I would say there's, you know, some hints that that might be the case. You know, I think it's Athena talks about vengeance. Is that— yeah. So, you know, the other— one of the other things that's tricky about reading ancient things from a modern perspective is, you know, it's generally not considered too appropriate these days to go and slaughter all of your enemies. But what do you make of Athena's support of Odysseus's vengeance? Is that in some ways appealing, not appealing? How do you think about that as a modern human being?
Well, it was, I mean, for me, just reading it, it was very satisfying. At the end, even though I wouldn't want to be there to witness it. Um, I thought that it was a fitting ending considering the times. Um, maybe nowadays it would have been like, I don't know, you'd call the enforcements and then they like take them to jail and then they stay in jail for a couple years and they get out. I don't know. Um, I mean, but other than that, um, I think Athena, that's what she wanted. She was like pushing for that the entire time and all the stories I've been told and read. She's— I mean, to be honest, it was a little like, oh, come on, because she would drop hints. I know nobody knew she was Athena, but she was like, yeah, Odysseus is gonna come as like an eagle or whatever and then slaughter all the suitors. And they were like, oh, but he's dead. And it was interesting to like see the connections when they were— like the connections made when everything happened. Got it. And it's been satisfying to read too.
Got it. It's interesting you should say satisfying. Um, can you explain why it might be satisfying?
Well, I think it's always satisfying when the hero or like the main character kind of beats the bad guys, and I guess in this case they're not really bad guys, but they're kind of the end goal of the story to get back home and like claim his wife and his belongings and his son and things like that. So when he finally accomplished that, that was satisfying to me as a reader.
Got it. And then, you know, so clearly Odysseus is the hero. Do you regard in any sense Telemachus and Penelope as, um, heroic or not? Or how would you describe their moral status?
Um, well, they're all, I guess, sort of heroic in their own way. I mean, Penelope, just for her, like, just sits there and organizes things, I guess, and like is sad about her husband, right? So maybe that's not too heroic, but I know at the end she like he does some stuff and like tries to fend off the suitors and things like that. And then I know, um, when Odysseus gets home, Telemachus has like a hand in the playing and defeat of the suitors. So I think that makes him heroic in this context. Um, not totally sure about Penelope though.
Okay. And then we said it's satisfying when the heroes get the bad guys. In what sense? What makes the suitors the bad guys?
Well, I mean, if we consider Odysseus the hero, they're stealing from the hero. They're trying to tell everyone that the hero is dead. Well, I know they didn't actually like do anything to him, but they're spreading lies and they're overruling his rule even like when he's gone. And I guess even though typically the villain is like someone who tries to battle the bad guy, which I guess he does, they do. So there's a point. They don't have a direct hand in his troubles and his journey and things like that, but since they're the end goal, kind of like the final boss, I think you could totally say that they're the villain.
Okay, and just to, as it were, take the other side, hey, look, this guy's been gone for, you know, what is it, a decade? He's probably, probably dead, you know. 'Hey, Penelope, we need a king,' you know. Why not think of them as just sort of innocent, normal people? Why think of them as the villains?
Well, we're thinking of them as the villains because it's set around Odysseus trying to go home and claim his land and things like that. But if you're just looking at it regularly, then they aren't totally in the wrong, but they are mean and grotesque isn't the word, but that just comes to mind— to Telemachus and Penelope. They don't respect them. They aren't— even though Telemachus is like the prince, I guess he should— I don't know, he probably shouldn't be the king because Odysseus is still alive, but they don't know that. Um, and their manner is not heroic at all. I, I remember from the different stories I've read, uh, And I think that's mostly why we don't think of them as like good guys, because they're so mean. Bad guys tend to be mean.
Okay, it sounds like you rather enjoy the story of Odysseus. Is that true? Yeah, I think so. Is it fun to read the real thing this time through? Yes, for sure. Okay, great. In which case, anything else before we pause till next week? No, other than I will read the second Yeah, I think, you know, if it turns out to be too slowly to do one book at a time, we can, but I think it's kind of nice to take it one book at a time, at least through the first little while. Sound good?
Yeah, that sounds great.
Um, great. And by the way, before we go, um, I asked your dad, but I always like to ask you as well. Is it okay if I share your terrific SAT verbal score from the spring? Uh, yeah, sure. Okay, it was excellent, by the way. I checked, and it's top 1%. Score in the US.
So I thought I'd brag about it. I didn't know that.
Yeah, thank you. Okay, again, big congrats. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Thank you.
