Coaching Alana on How to Engage a Child Socratically

hear your Foggie. Um, so yeah, one of the things I wanted to touch base on today, Lana, is that, um, I talked to Latham, and I understand you're still working with his son a little bit, and I wanted to get your take on how that's going. So we'll call his son C. How are things going with his son from your end?

Well, I'm having a good time. Um, I think it's been getting a little easier for me to sort of conduct the conversation over the past couple weeks. Um, I just ask him questions. I think this past week, uh, we went over the process of if he had his own country and what would he do and stuff, and the laws and things like that. I just thought that might be fun for him. I haven't really gone into anything like textbook yet just because, um, I feel like from the responses I've been getting, maybe it might be best for me not to do that so often because sometimes, like, maybe I'd have, like, for example, with the country, the country questions I'd ask him, like, what type of laws would you, or yeah, what type of laws would you put in place to, I don't know, protect your country? And he would, I don't know, he just He didn't really know, so I had to narrow it down, and then he didn't really know, so I narrowed it down even more, and then he had a couple ideas. So that's usually the framework of how my asking questions have been going. I don't really know what to call progress, but I think our relationship has got a little bit better, so I guess that's good. And like I said, I'm having an easier time, so that's also good.

Very cool. All helpful information. When you say you're having an easier time, is it easier to ask questions? You feel more relaxed? Tell me in what way is it an easier time for you?

Well, for sure, feeling more relaxed. And also, like, when I'm stuck, like, I ran out of questions to ask, it's a little easier to come up with a new one and keep it going. Like, in the past, I've been, like, really, really stuck and, like, unintelligible sentences come out, but that doesn't happen anymore.

Do you think that's just practice on your part?

I think so. Uh, maybe also my tops— my topics have become a little less vague, but I think so.

What's interesting is I would think that attending classes at TSE makes it easier for you to ask questions. Do you think there is some, um, kind of carryover from classes at TSE and learning to ask questions one-on-one with a kid like this, or not?

For sure. Um, I remember in humanities sometimes Karen would have us lead classes and topics and things like that. And so that practice plus this made it a lot easier than it would have been if I hadn't joined TSE. Things like that. Um, I think one-on-one with a kid a little younger than me is a little difficult though.

For sure, for sure. Wondering about— part of it is I think that if you're in an environment where people are routinely asking questions, either the guide and/or other students, and even occasionally yourself in class. Um, yeah, you're in the habit of thinking about ideas and asking questions about ideas. And I agree, with a kid it's very different. So it's more relaxed, you're getting better at asking questions. Um, do you think that in terms of getting better at asking questions, do you think it's mental preparation as you gain experience one-on-one with him, you realize, oh, I need to have a few more questions prepared. Walk me through a little bit of, um, exactly why you think you've gotten better at asking questions.

I can, um, I guess guide the conversation a little better, like I'm able to prod answers out of him a little bit more than I could when I started. Mhm. Um, because sometimes I've noticed that either he's closed off or maybe just doesn't find it interesting, or maybe just doesn't want to think about it. So he just says, "I don't know, maybe." Mhm. Um, so I have to kind of like speak for him and get his mind going. I don't know if it's just he doesn't want to answer it, he doesn't want to think, or he doesn't know, but I don't know.

Got it. I, I have a, a few suggestions for you, but before I get into my suggestions, um, I want to check in. I, I— it was helpful how you explained on the new rules for the city. And by the way, I think that's a cool topic. We've been talking about that on Fridays in my purpose class for several weeks, and we have very lively conversations. But of course, those are high school students. But you said you had to kind of go down several levels before he engaged. What was the level at which he actually began to engage?

I think it was— I mean, I guess it's just levels of specification. Like, for example, the law. I asked him what kind of laws he'd put in place. For his country? And he just said, "I don't know." So I kind of realized that was a pretty vague question, so I said, "What kind of things would you do in order to keep your country safe?" And he said, "I don't know." Because immediately I was thinking like military or police force, so I said, "What about a police force? Would that keep your country safe?" He was like, "Yeah, I think so." I guess just things like that. And then when I go deeper, he like, um, gives me different answers. I think it might be about topic too. Mm-hmm. Like some things he answers more quickly than others. Yeah.

So part of this is one way that I think of that situation like that. First, even in my class with high school students, there are some middle school, but it's maybe 80% high school. When I first asked what laws would you create for their country, they didn't have much to say. And the way that I think about it is if they haven't thought about it, you know, then maybe if they had time, eventually they'd come up with something. I know I was doing it at a city level and not a country level, but one of the ways I got into narrower, more accessible topics— a lot of this is you as the question asker figuring out what might be a sufficiently narrow or accessible topic. So for instance, I would ask them what do they not like about their current city, and some of them said, well, they're not good places for teenagers to hang out. And so then we got into what would count as a good place for teenagers to hang out, and that's much kind of more direct connected to their experience than is, uh, what laws we have for a country to do. And so that's kind of my experience, as it were, just like with you going down to get engagement. Um, another example is another occasion I asked if you were If you owned the city, what laws would you set up? And again, not much engagement because they had never thought about it. But somebody finally brought up— and it's easier with a group because just one-on-one, if the kid doesn't answer, what do you do? Whereas with a group, you know, I've got 15 or 17 or whatever. But somebody said, well, driving, you know, I think we should be able to drive at 15. And of course, again, driving is a case where a lot of teenagers care about it. It's sort of direct to their experience. Now we've gone on to much, much bigger things, but a lot of times you need to kind of take it down to something that's where their experience is. And so the way I think about it is, when I'm— before I'm going to go and ask a question, either in a class or one-on-one, is how do I connect with their experience where they are? Does that make sense?

Yes, but— or not, not but— it's just I'm a little confused on how to like get them there.

No, very— of course. And so a lot of this then is you need to develop a mental model of— in this case, he's 8 or 9?

I think he's 9.

9. So you have to develop a mental model, and this is one of the reasons why it's nice to have rapport and just chit-chat for a while, a mental model of what things might be relevant to a 9-year-old. Because, yeah, your question is really cool at a high level, but way too sophisticated for him. Um, so we have to go kind of go down to the world of a 9-year-old. And to kind of go in a different direction away from the city or country thing, something that I often use are things that are kind of almost universal in terms of what kids care about, or human beings care about. And so something I might suggest you talk about, ask about, is what counts as fair or not fair? And as is, that's not a very great question. So even as I say that, I think, okay, But what I'm trying to get to on the emotionality of the other person is anytime, if any of us have ever been treated unfairly, we have strong feelings about that. Fair enough?

Yes.

So I'm basically, I'm hunting. When I go after a question like that, I think, how do I trigger? And it's not like I'm triggering in terms of provoking them, but you want to touch the passion. It sounds like you, you, you have gotten better at asking questions. You've gotten better rapport, but you've not kind of engaged his passion. Is that fair? Fair enough?

Yes.

So now we're kind of hunting for passion, to put it in a slightly weird way. But, you know, my bet is that if somebody treated him unfairly, and you can say, I don't know, I'm just thinking of kid sorts of things, and I don't know his life well enough to know, but, you know, if somebody was going to split a candy bar with you or a sandwich or whatever, and they took too much, they took more than their fair share, or we were going to agree that you get to play with it half the time and I get to play with it half the time, and the other person takes like 60% or 70% or 80%. That is, we could also call this justice, but I think all human beings have a strong sense of, "That was unfair." Makes sense?

Yeah, for sure.

So, um, what I would do, and part of this then is you thinking through and experimenting with Have you ever been treated unfairly? Do you think it's okay for kids to treat other kids unfairly? Are kids sometimes mean to other kids? He might not open up, but I would be hunting for a place where he has some passion and ideally anger. Again, not like we want him angry, but, you know, that was not fair. If you can get to that point, then we can kind of build up from the passion. And All of that makes sense?

Yes.

So then I also think of going down different— because then once you have passion, then I would try to get them to articulate a theory of fairness or a theory of justice, which sounds elaborate, but yeah, if two people agree to share something, what counts as fair? Is it equal sizes at equal times? And then there are issues around Should adults get more than kids? Should kids get more than adults? You know, I would say it's not clear that the answers are the same always and everywhere for everything. I mean, and do you think that in all cases, uh, kids and adults should get the same amount of food? Should kids and adults have the same amount of food?

Um, well, in some cases, but I think, like you said, it depends.

Right, and so any question, this is when I think of lines of questioning. If you can get down to an 'it depends,' then that provides you with a path for questions, because you want to see if he thinks it depends on this, or if he thinks on that. Is it a matter of rules in advance? Some people say, 'Hey, we set the rules in advance, can't change the rules.' Other people think, 'Well, older people, bigger people, hungrier people,' or maybe it's the person who hasn't eaten the longest, or it's a person who likes it most, You know, I'm just kind of playing around with answers, but going back to the art of asking questions, a couple of things. One is try to find questions that are down at his world, then within his world, ideally questions about passion. And just, you know, he's— have— I assume you've tried asking him about the airplane. How's that going?

I actually, I did. I asked about the airplane that he's building with his dad. And the times that I did, he just mentioned that they hadn't been able to work on it, or they had done a little bit of work, but I guess he didn't go like extensively telling me about it and their progress and what— when they actually— no, he did tell me when they want to finish it, like I think it was a year or a year and a half, but not as much as I thought, I guess.

Yeah, and no problem. For one, I think he's still— you're still drawing him out and Again, I'm endlessly patient. I don't know if you're endlessly patient, but part of this is patience. But also, I think the— I can see why the airplane, he might love doing it, but it's not like an emotional trigger the way if you can find a place where he has strong feelings about fairness, then there's an emotional trigger. Because a lot of times, just in classes, and again, it's easier in classes because you've got, say, 15, if you can find something somebody responds to with some passion, I would say it's a more interesting class. Does that sort of resonate for you, that in classes where somebody has been passionate about something, made the class more interesting?

Yeah, for sure.

For sure. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, you want to find his level and then something that hits where you can elicit some passion. And sometimes I just try different angles of questioning. So it's great that you, you've already figured out kind of the city rules for a city was sort of too high level and you had to go down, down, down. But you might think of different ways to ask fair, justice, I mentioned justice, cheated, has anybody ever cheated you, has anybody ever betrayed you? In different ways fairness, justice, cheated, and betrayal are different words around that same kind of sense of that time, rah rah rah rah, you know what I mean? So I would prepare next time with a whole bunch of kind of questions around that, and you might try to think about life as a 9-year-old, you know. Um, how old is your brother these days?

He actually just turned 9 in January.

Yeah, actually, what might be really interesting— do you, do you kind of engage in any sort of Socratic dialogue with your brother?

I try every once in a while, and he usually notices that I'm doing it, so he just plays along, you know.

So it's not really the same, but it might be tricky with your brother because brother-sister dynamics have their own thing going. But, um, You know, one way you might try is rather than— if he thinks you're doing the thing to him, I can see why he'd be resistant. But if you could say, hey, I need to get inside the head of a 9-year-old because I'm, you know, talking to C next week. Can you help me get inside the head of a 9-year-old, um, you know, and see what he comes up with? Um, because he— yeah, I haven't been a 9-year-old in a long time. You're closer to 9 than, you know, I am, but still. you know, we change. And so all those issues. The other thing you might talk, ask them about, which might be relevant too, are things like challenge and struggle. Do you like to do things that are hard? Do you like to do things that are easy? Because I think a lot of times I like to go to sort of simple, normal human column categories where I think every human being has struggled, has found some things challenging, some things are easy. The other thing is interesting or boring. Have you ever been bored or interested? That one is less likely to be exciting because you don't have— people don't have passion around, yeah, I was bored. You know, it's not like I was cheated. You know what I mean? Struggle versus challenge, struggle and challenge, I think might be a little bit better because, you know, this one time I did this thing that was really hard and either I failed or I was proud of it. And failure, you you know, have you ever failed? Are you afraid of failure? Or do you like to be confident? Again, these questions might be too sensitive for him, because the other thing is, you know, my sense is he's sort of got a protective shell. Does that— do you kind of get why I think that?

Yeah, I think so.

So that's why I think things like questions that are too personal for him, he might be resistant to. So, you know, the city thing, too high. Challenging might be okay. Interesting, boring is probably too boring. Have you ever failed? Probably too personal. Fairness, justice, cheaters, betrayal. Lonely, you could ask him, has he ever been lonely or does he like to be around friends? What's nice about being around friends? Kind of this sense, I think all human beings want to belong. We all have friends. Good night might be too personal. But I'm trying to go down into the world of a 9-year-old thinking as different as, you know, my life is from a 9-year-old and as far away as being a 9-year-old is, what's kind of human universal? Does that make sense?

Sorry, Michael, you cut out. Could you repeat that, please?

Yeah, I was saying that what I'm trying to do is go to things that as different as my life is from a 9-year-old, what are kind of human universals where even at 9 there's sort of certain human experiences, certain human feelings, human passions that are likely to be the same. Make sense?

Yes, for sure.

Okay.

All of those things.

Yeah, so I've kind of given, done most of the talking today, given you all sorts of ideas. Any other questions or comments on your side?

No, nothing, but I think I'll try the fairness or one of those emotions, maybe it'll trigger something else.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So have fun with it. And yeah, if you're okay being patient, endlessly patient, and now you're, you're fishing for passion. Okay.

Okay.

All right. Have fun, Alana. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye.