Do we need to experience tragedy to become more mature?

Well, good.

So first I want to hear about your cruise, Alanna, in Alaska. Tell us about it.

Yeah, well, it was awesome. I've never been on any sort of cruise, so first of all, being on the ship was amazing. I've never been out on the open ocean before, so seeing the watery expanse was a really pleasant view, other than the fact that it got really stormy at one point and the ship was rocking. Thankfully, I don't get motion sickness, but being in the pool during that time was a little hard. It made it funner than it would have been otherwise. Good. So we went inside the Inner Pass, I believe it's called, from Seattle. We went to Seattle and then we boarded the cruise. We went all the way up to Juneau, which was— so we got on the boat, started going, and then a whole nother day going up to Juneau. And then we worked our way back. I thought we'd go like up north instead of going up north all the way and then south. But, you know, it works either way. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Ketchikan, Victoria, Canada, British Columbia, actually. I got to meet some Canadians. It was fun.

Was it beautiful?

It was absolutely amazing. I live in California, which is never really too cold and too rainy and too wet. There aren't, you know, the landscape's completely different. It was so beautiful. In Juneau, we hiked to this waterfall. We got amazingly beautiful pictures. That was basically the whole hike, just pictures. And then in Ketchikan or Skagway. We went on a train ride through the mountains and through tunnels and things like that. Um, and just a lot, a lot of whole nother views and tours and things like that. Um, the best thing in my opinion is that I was with my family the entire time. Um, my two grandparents, my uncle and auntie, my other uncle, and my two cousins. Um, and we just had a blast, honestly. I had so much fun that when we were getting off the ship, I didn't— I wasn't even that sad.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, congratulations. It sounds like it was a great family trip in absolutely every respect. You'll have lifelong memories from that. I wanted to touch on— I know there's a young 9-year-old that you may be working with on history. He is reading a book I recommended called The Cartoon History of the Universe. I recommended to your dad that he get a copy of that for you. I don't— I just— because you've been on vacation, I assume you've not had a chance to get that.

No, I have not, but I guess I will.

There we go. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's, you know, history going way back. It starts the Big Bang. That's why they call it the Cartoon History of the Universe. And, um, you know, would you say that your world history and, and then from the Big Bang, it goes up to early civilizations, and then, you know, the Greeks and the Romans and the Persians. Before that, the Mesopotamians. Before the Greeks, the Mesopotamians, and so forth. Would you say your history in those parts, uh, that part of history, is strong, is weak, is non-existent? How much history do you know of those periods?

Um, I wouldn't say it's non-existent, but it's not the strongest. Um, actually, he— when I was talking to him the other week, He told me about that book. He just didn't tell me the name. So I asked a little bit about that.

And did— how was he talking about it? Did he give you specific pieces from that book, or what was he pointing out? What was he talking about?

He told me about what part he was on, which was ISH, I believe. So I asked him a little more about that and if he enjoyed learning about it. He said yes.

No, great. So my technique, just to, you know, if you talk to him before you and I talk again, My technique is, you know, as with you and your books, and we haven't touched base on, you know, the books you're reading in some time. But, you know, I like to— often when we read something or watch something or whatever, some pieces are meaningful to us and interesting, and other pieces are maybe less meaningful and less interesting. And so I always like to understand what is most engaging from the other person's perspective. So in his case, I think it'd be interesting to hear what pieces he found engaging. And then as you read it, what you can do is you're older, more mature, you've got this much, even though you're not strong in that part of history. After you read it, I would expect that you will get more out of it than he does simply because you're older. Actually, here's something that our minds remember things when we make connections to other things. And so insofar as you just have, you're older and have a lot more connections in your mind. That way, what you read will probably stick a little bit more than for his, because you've got all of those, you know, you know things certainly about Greece. Do you know a little bit about Rome or not so much about Rome?

I've never really read in depth about Rome, but I know Rome. I know about Rome.

Yeah. So there are things that are meaningful to you from things you've heard your family talk about, from the things you've heard kids in class talk about, from the podcasts you've listened to. Books you've read. And so what— the way I think of it is when you read a continuous narrative— so this Cartoon History of the Universe will be kind of a continuous chunk of history that is body for you at present— I imagine that you'll probably remember various things, and then he remembers various things. And so what I think might be interesting might be to listen first to what he remembers and finds meaningful and interesting, And then for you to connect it, sort of broaden his, uh, broaden his horizons by means of questions as well as information that help him connect what he understands to new things that are part of what connect for you. Am I making any sense at all, or am I way too abstract?

No, that makes, that makes total sense.

Okay. Um, actually, let's touch, uh, so you were reading two books. One of them was Jane Eyre, and what was the other one?

The Iliad.

The Iliad. Yeah, how are those two going?

They're going great. Um, I only sadly brought the Iliad on the trip, so I read a bunch of that.

So what's going on in the Iliad right now?

So I'm kind of on the part where the gods are really interfering with the war. Um, I've passed the part where Diomedes was on his rage, um, and Athena was helping him. So I guess in that part, I think that really made it go forward because, um, like I said, then the gods start, you know, helping the mortals and things like that. Um, it kind of divides the gods too because they're, um, they're all on different sides. Um, I know that Athena and Hera are on the Achaean side and Aphrodite and Ares and others are on the, um, Trojan side. So it kind of just doesn't just make a conflict between the Achaians and the Trojans, it's between the gods too. So I found that super interesting.

Would you say you're about halfway through?

Um, a little less.

A little less, got it. Um, the theme— and this is actually me demonstrating what I meant to you, um, I, I've read it so long ago there's some pieces of it that are familiar and some pieces that are not— but something that I remember being a big deal was, um, Achilles' anger vis-à-vis Agamemnon and how Achilles kind of backs out for a while and then re-engages. And so, just to check in on your take on Achilles, do you think that Achilles did the right thing? Do you think he's kind of pouty and whiny? Do you think that Achilles is a hero? What's your take on Achilles?

I haven't gotten to the part where he bounces back, but I do know that happens. Um, I don't think he did the right thing by completely shutting everyone out and not doing his part in the war, even though he has a point that it's not, you know, it's not his problem and he doesn't even need to help anyways. He just decided to. Um, I think there are a bunch of different ways he could have handled it differently that probably would have been better. Um, but I, I think he was a little pouty, but I don't really know what else to do in his case.

So, and I'm, I mean, I, I like the word pouty actually for him, and it's weird because he's supposed to be this big hero, certainly by the end of the book, the end of the story. Um, do you think that it's anti-heroic to be pouty?

Um, I mean pouty about different things, I guess. If you're pouty about, I don't know, someone's death or something, and you're a hero, I mean, you got to be strong. But I mean, everyone else is going to be pouty, so can you. But I think in his case, maybe not.

So for me, the word pouty— I mean, if somebody died, bad about it, or I'm grieving, I think that's a totally respectable position. Of course we need to grieve. Of course they're gonna be sad. For me, pouty has connotations of— I don't know, I'm trying to think of it. I think of pouty as something a little kid does. A little kid pouts, whereas some part of me doesn't like the idea of a hero pouting. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

So do you think Achilles is more like kind of a whiny little kid, or is he just grieving and sad in a way that's completely legitimate?

I think in the first part he's pouting like a little kid, but when Patroclus dies, he's grieving.

Got it, that makes sense. Um, do you think— I know this is, uh, it's kind of painful to think this way, but do you think that the death of Patroclus actually helps him to become more mature?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it at least helps him get over his, um, poutiness, I guess, with Agamemnon.

And the reason I said it's kind of sad to say is I would hate to think that we need to lose a loved one in order to grow up. Um, do you think that's only with Achilles, or do you think that sometimes all of us need a tragedy in order to become more mature?

Um, I don't think it's only with Achilles, but I don't know if it's with every single human being. Um, I mean, it might certainly help depending on where you are and what you're doing, but I hope that happens.

I was going to say, I would assume that for your own case, you really hope that you can be fully mature without having experience in tragedy. Is that a fair assessment of your own wish for yourself?

Yes, definitely.

I would think so. And by the way, remarkably mature. I don't— I can't think of you ever being pouty. It would be interesting to ask your parents that, but I bet they would say not. Um, no, very interesting. So, you know, I, I wanted to touch base on, uh, the Iliad, but also, do you see kind of how I did what I said I was going to do? So you can do it on the cartoon history. That is, I asked you what was meaningful to you, and, um, you mentioned the, the— and it is interesting— the, the conflict between the humans is then kind of mapped on to the conflict with the gods. That's interesting. Frankly, I didn't remember enough about that to ask an intelligent question on that. But I do remember the whole issue of Achilles being a powder, which is, you know, even now it's a really big thing for me. So I was able to ask about that. And then you and I had an, I think, an interesting conversation about our takes on Achilles. So just in terms of leading, you said that with this kid you're going to get to be like me leading the discussion. Do you kind of see the dynamic there where we kind of check in, find your interest, my interest, where our interests are together, and then mutually explore our common interests.

Yes.

Do you think that you can do that well with, um, this 9-year-old?

I can try, but I think I'll do fine.

You'll do wonderfully, in which case I will let you go. So glad you had a beautiful family vacation, and I look forward to seeing how your Socratic convos with, uh, I'm going to call him C to preserve his privacy, okay? How your convos go, okay?

Okay, thank you.

All right, you're welcome. Bye-bye, Alana, take care.

You too.