Dreyfus Novice to Expert Learning Model

Very good. How about you?

I'm well. Um, do you have any jiu-jitsu tournaments this weekend?

Not this weekend.

Okay, cool. How is school going?

It's going great. Um, I had a lot of fun this week.

What were some of the highlights?

We read, um, another— or we read a short story by Jack London. I think it was called Nambak the Unvoracious or Overacious or something like that. I'm not quite sure about the last word. I think it's one of my favorite short stories that we've read. I love the story in general and the theme.

I remember loving Jack London when I was your age. A lot of kind of intensity. Very, very cool stuff. And how about Harvard CS50? How's that going?

It's going good. I'm just figuring out some kinks on the first project for week 1, and then I'll move on to the second.

Got it. Well, I thought we'd continue on. Let's see if I can— yeah, here we go. I've been talking about this process of going from expert from— I always get it wrong— from Novice to Expert. And I thought it's worth digging in because I think it's useful to have different models for how we learn. And you're learning so much in so many different ways. I thought rather than have you listen to a mangled version of me explain it, let's get the print version because sometimes I think it's easier to understand things. I don't know, it can go either way. Do you prefer to read things to understand or do you prefer to listen to understand? Or does it depend on the situation?

I think it depends. Um, it depends on the text, whether or not I get more out of it when I'm reading or listening.

Got it. Um, so insofar as the goal is to help you get a clearer model of this, uh, model of going from novice to expert, would it be better if I read it out loud to you, if you read it out loud, or if you read it silently?

So I think it would be better if I read it. Okay. The 5-stage model of skill acquisition was created by Stuart and Hubert Dreyfus. The model details the 5 stages of learning that people go through when they're learning new skills. People begin at the novice stage, in which they simply follow rules and instructions. Then they progress to the advanced-beginner, in which they apply what they learned in the novice stage to real situations. The next learning stage is the competent stage. Here, people can get overwhelmed with how much there is still left to learn. Then they move on to the proficient stage, where they're able to prioritize tasks and take a broader view of the situation. The last stage is expert. Here they no longer rely on rules to make decisions, and they're able to take action without thinking or analyzing.

Thank you. And so would you say that broadly makes sense?

I think so.

Okay, let's, let's— because in the past I've talked a little bit about my version of novice and expert. Before we go into the middle 3 stages, Um, let's check in on the novice stage and the expert stage, and then we can go to the middle stages. So novice stage, when you're simply following rules and instructions, would you say that there's anything you're learning right now where you're at a novice stage, you're just plain following rules and instructions?

I think the harder aspects of coding, programming in multiple levels. I'm still there.

Got it. Okay, totally makes sense. And then let's jump ahead to the last stage, is expert. Here you no longer rely on rules to make decisions. You're able to take action without thinking or analyzing. Is there any domain where you're an expert in that sense? You don't have to think or analyze at all, you can just boom, make decisions?

Um, well, there's reading in general, which I think I might be expert at besides like really uncommon words that I need to spell out. Um, but, and then, I mean, writing, I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but still learning.

How about jiu-jitsu?

No, I'm not expert.

Okay. Um, would you say there's some moves where you can just totally do it instantly without thinking at all. And then there are other moves where you're still kind of learning and becoming more sophisticated.

Yes.

Because I, I think realistically, it, all of this comes in layers, as you say, even with reading. Um, you know, there's simple prose where, you know, we don't have to think at all, but you get into more difficult prose, then you have to stop and think. And then, you know, with jiu-jitsu, I'm sure there's simple moves where you don't have to think at all, but there are more complex moves where you have to kind of pause and think. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Got it. And does it make sense in general that when you're first learning something, often it has to be in terms of explicit rules and instructions, um, but that at some point you get to the point where you don't, you don't have to think about it at all?

Yes.

Um, I think it's kind of cool to be aware of that because often when we're learning We're only aware of the, you know, how do I learn this? Or often at the novice stage. But let's go to the second stage. So novice stage in which we're simply following rules and instructions. Then what they call advanced beginner in which they apply what they learned in the novice stage to real situations. Can you think of any place where you're kind of an advanced beginner where you're trying to apply what you learned in terms of rules and instructions to real situations?

Well, there's a few aspects in coding, and then obviously when I'm learning math and I'm just kind of learning that, and then I start to apply that.

Um, yeah, that makes total sense. The next learning stage is the competent stage. Here people get overwhelmed with how much there's still left to learn. Um, does that make sense?

It does.

Is there a domain where you feel as if you're kind of beyond advanced beginner, um, but not yet proficient, where you're in this kind of confident stage where, wow, there's still a lot left to learn?

I think I could be there in writing, just in general. I don't necessarily get overwhelmed with how much more there is, but I think I'm there.

Actually, I didn't like the way they talked about it, about being overwhelmed. I actually think that's poorly written. And, you know, I could find a better one for exactly what you read. I think it's possible to be aware of how much more there is to learn without feeling overwhelmed. And My sense is that maybe at the kind of paragraph level, you're, you know, completely confident, maybe even expert, but that when you get to kind of the whole story level, there may be, you know, kind of, there's lots to learn still. Does that sound accurate?

Yes.

And then the proficient stage where they're able to prioritize tasks and take a broader view of the situation. What do you think? Where do you think you're at the proficient stage?

Um, I mean, there are probably some aspects, like very, very simple aspects of coding that I might be at that stage, but like only the very basics. I'm not there for really anything else yet. Some aspects of writing, just like regular— make a paragraph, okay? Like, I'm able to do that without thinking, pretty much. Without thinking about the actual construction of the writing, not the actual material. I mean, you obviously have to think about what you're writing.

And I think it's nice to be able to, you know, when I think of prioritized tasks, should I put this sentence in the beginning of the paragraph or that sentence in the beginning of the paragraph? Should I put this paragraph before that paragraph? That is, you're, because you're no longer lost in the details of, you know, how to write a sentence, you can kind of pull out and make what I would call strategic decisions about you know, about how you organize sentences and paragraphs. Does that sound accurate?

Yes.

It sounds like with very, very basic coding tasks, you're there. You know, there are maybe— is it like tiny units of coding where you don't have to think about this tiny unit of code, and therefore you can make some strategic decisions about how to organize bits of code within a program?

Yeah, I mean, there's the simple functions and then creating a function. And then I'm— I mean, I think just things like that, more of the simpler stuff that I'm able to do mostly without thinking.

Um, you know, I'm thinking of other places where you're almost surely expert. I would say walking, you're probably expert. That is, you don't have to think at all about, hmm, right foot in front of left foot, right? Yeah, and I think one of the reasons all of this interests me is, uh, you remember when I've talked about your consciousness is kind of like a flashlight in the attic? Does that recall any— do you recall that?

I think so.

Um, you know, one way I think about it is we only have so much bandwidth in our mind to focus on things. You can't focus right now on how to make sure your heart beats in the right way and talk to me and what the text is saying and you know, you're, most of what we do most of the time is unconscious. So for instance, our heartbeat, our heart, hearts keep going and beating regardless. We're totally unconscious of that. But even walking, when you walk to the refrigerator to get something to eat or drink, you don't have to be conscious of that. I would expect you don't, you know, your mind just says, hey, I'm gonna go get something out of the fridge. And you don't have to strategize, walk around the counter, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And I think the interesting thing about learning and having a map of learning or a model of learning is that there are places where you don't have to think. You're so expert, you don't have to think. Would you say it's sentence-level writing? It's like you don't think at all, or only rarely do you have to think at sentence-level writing?

Yes.

Well, and reading, I would say unless it's really complicated text, you can probably, you know, the books you read for fun, you just pick up and read them. You know, you're not kind of, uh, should I slow down on this paragraph or should I, you know what I mean? Uh, so does it make sense that when you think about how you're, where you are at learning to code versus write versus math, math is an interesting example because very simple things, 2 times 2, probably you don't have to slow down and think about that. But what are you learning mathematics right now?

I'm going— I'm doing the math space that TSC provides. I don't know the subject that I'm on off the top of my head, but I am following the curriculum.

Is it challenging for you or not too bad?

It is challenging. There are a few aspects in which I do need to go over again.

Got it.

But it's been really good so far.

So maybe with new concepts in math, you're at the novice stage, and at least when you practice them, you go from novice to advanced beginner.

Yes.

But then with arithmetic, you learned, say, 2 or 3 years ago, you're probably at the proficient or expert phase. That is, you kind of— I think our brains, and I even think of, um, neuronal connections in our brain, that at some point you've got the rules of addition and subtraction pretty solidly in your brain. You don't have to stop and relearn those every time. Whereas if you're just learning, say, order of operations or fractions or decimals— have you already learned fractions and decimals?

There's a section, I think I'm on that, where we're just going over it again. But I do know how to do that.

Would you say With fractions, are you at novice, advanced beginner, competent, or proficient stage?

I mean, for fractions, probably just advanced beginner, but I can, like, if I have a pencil and paper with me and I have a few minutes, and I might be able to do the question.

Got it.

I would be able.

And does it make sense that with practice, usually one goes through these stages? You get farther along? Um, that a lot of it is, you know, doing things over and over again. We get more experience, more familiarity. Our brain neuronal connections connect, and gradually we go from this stage where it's really difficult and you have to learn rule by rule by rule, to the point where it's just invisible and part of who we are and we don't even notice it.

Yes.

Just because I don't know jiu-jitsu, what What are the kind of parts of jiu-jitsu that you're still having to, um, well, are you a novice with some parts of jiu-jitsu?

Yeah, I mean, there, we're learning new moves every week, every day. So I mean, I'm novice in a lot of parts.

Oh wow.

Um, is there always newer concepts and techniques and styles that people use?

I had no idea. That's wonderful. For some reason I thought, you know, it was a more limited set, but it's really cool actually. I love things that have endless depth. Would you say that there's endless depth, endless depth to learning jiu-jitsu?

I think you could. I mean, I think you could say that. I mean, even the— I think so.

Okay. Well, again, part of this is mastery. I'm sure I'm sure in one sense your teachers are an expert for sure. And then I guess the question is, are they as expert as they could possibly be? Or in 10 years from now, will they be even more of an expert? Do you have a sense?

I mean, they'd probably be more of an expert in the next few years just because of experience and, um, I mean, technique and game is always evolving. So I don't think there's one specific point that you stop at.

No, that makes sense. Have you ever tried to learn anything where it was so difficult that you were anxious or afraid of learning it?

Um, I mean, I've been nervous to do and learn a lot of things, but I'm not sure about anxious. Like, maybe if it was like threatening to something, if I was doing something more physical, then maybe. But I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Do you think that if you wanted to learn something, you could learn anything you wanted to learn?

I think it's Yes.

Does it make sense that the process of learning, you know, math and jiu-jitsu are so totally different, but does it make sense that there's in some ways a similar process of going from novice to expert in math and in jiu-jitsu even though they're so different?

Yeah, well, I mean, it's just practice. You have to keep doing it.

There you go. Um, yeah, I'm fascinated with the process of learning, and I think we are we become better learners, the more aware we are of the process of learning. And it's really great to know that. And I, I didn't think you'd be anxious about learning much of anything. My expectation was you would not, but it's always, I, I think it's respectful to check. And I think a lot of people, you know, like with math in particular, a lot of people get stuck in math because they develop math anxiety and probably other things too. You know, anytime people get anxious, that it makes them less effective learner. There's a book I love called Fear is a Mind Killer. The idea is if you're afraid, it prevents your mind from functioning. And so I think it's really good to and important to feel kind of confident and competent as you learn. Cool. And anything else you want to say about learning or this model or anything else?

No, I don't think so.

All right. Well, take it away and keep learning all over the place. Okay, Lana?

All right. Thank you, Michael.

Bye-bye.