Is Language an Instinct?

Um, so, uh, I wanted to kind of continue actually from our conversation from last week. Do you remember what we talked about last week?

Um, I think— was it— I remember we were talking about, um something concerning— actually, wait, no, never mind. Could you remind me of it, please?

Yeah, um, you know, I began— we began in one place and I ended at the other, so I'll kind of rush ahead to where we ended. But we began on the difference between why do we learn some things naturally, like talking and walking, and why do we need to be taught other things like reading and math.

That's right, I remember.

Yeah, and we got into a little side detour on the history of reading. That's why I sent you that article. Uh, did you, did you get a chance to look at that article? Article on the history of the alphabet or writing?

Um, no, I did not, but let me pull it up and then maybe we can go over it.

Um, I don't know. I, I, I'm inclined to kind of jump to something else actually. Um, so yeah, I think it's worth reading that, but I would say, um, yeah, that's just cool for you to see. I thought it was cool visually because you could see the history of the alphabet. Visually. But in terms of topics, the place we ended that I wanted to address today was, you know, what is instinctive? And you had suggested that when, like, crying was instinctive, when babies, as soon as they're born, they cry. And then I was asking, are walking and talking instinctive? And do you remember how we landed that conversation?

I think it was something like they may not be as instinctive as crying, but maybe since every single human does it, then it's got to be instinctive on some sort of level.

Yeah, that's a good summary. And you were offering as an alternative hypothesis to the instinct hypothesis that maybe children learn through trial and error. That is, they would hang out, they would see adults and they would kind of through trial and error learn to walk. And then they would hear adults talk and through trial and error learn to talk. Does that sound familiar?

Yes.

Got it. So I realize one of the things, you know, I was sort of emphasizing the instinct because, you know, normally all adults walk and talk. But I realize there are some interesting counterexamples. Do you know, um, The Jungle Book at all?

Yes, I just haven't read or watched it in a couple years, but yes, I do.

You know the character Mowgli?

Uh, yes.

So it turns out that there have been a number of children, babies, who were actually raised by wolves. That is, um, for various reasons, usually it's a very sad, tragic situation Their parents abandoned them when they were very young, and it's interesting that the wolves raise the kids rather than, uh, kill them. I'm sure there are cases where the wolves have killed the kids, but there have been a number of cases where babies were raised by wolves. Mowgli, people believe, was based on a real-life story in India 100 years ago or so where a little kid was you know, raised by wolves. And what's interesting about this from our perspective is that when human beings— I think he was maybe 7 or 8 when human beings found him— he walked on all fours and could not speak a human language. So I'm bringing this up because going back to your notion that trial and error rather than instinct, I guess, what do you make of that? If a, if a human being is raised by wolves and don't learn to walk and talk, does that disprove the notion that it's in some sense instinctive to walk and talk?

Yes, I think so, because, um, that's a special case where the child wasn't raised around humans, instead it was raised around wolves, and so it began walking on all fours, or crawling on all fours, instead of walking on two legs, and that's probably because the wolves use all four limbs to walk. So trial and error instead, through wolves maybe instead of through humans.

Got it. So then to make the story maybe a little bit more complicated, maybe not, bless you, is that after a while he did learn to walk, but he and others never learned to talk properly. So what do we make the case of once these sort of wild children. There have been other children that have been, you know, neglected in the forest and eventually got into human beings. But what do you make of the case that they could learn to walk but did not learn to talk?

Um, the first thing that comes to mind is maybe because talking is more difficult than walking. Uh, maybe— oh, and maybe it's just that walking is particularly easy to understand, you can see someone do it. But at least for me, speaking to a foreigner, hearing a foreign language is like, "I don't even know what they're saying." So maybe though, a wild child who was raised by wolves, who maybe only understood the wolves in some sense, I don't even know how to say that, it would— I would imagine he would have a harder time learning to speak a human language than walking.

There's actually some speculation that there may be a sensitive phase for language learning where, you know how with— maybe you don't know this, but often kids who learn another language when they're young speak it perfectly with that accent. Whereas if you learn the language as an adult, even if you learn, you know, a huge vocabulary and can even be a professor in that language, you have an accent. Have you heard that before?

Um, I haven't heard that, that theory like actually being said, but I think I've experienced it, um, just watching other people.

Not surprising. But you know people who learn the language before they were a certain age and after, and they have an accent even though they're older?

Uh, yes.

So, um, yeah, it's an interesting notion that there may be, both with respect to learning the language itself as well as with respect to accent, there may be sensitive periods when the brain is more ready to pick something up and other periods when they're not as ready to pick something up. But I guess, does that tell us anything about what's instinctive about human language learning versus trial and error? If it's just trial and error, why couldn't an adult speak a flawless— speak a foreign language without an accent?

I hate to bring up this word again, but I can't find another one to match it. Maybe when human beings are younger, learning different languages has maybe adapted or evolved to be somewhat of an instinct. I don't know, an instinct to be able to pick up on things or to pick up on languages specifically when they're younger rather than when they're older. And I don't know if it's an instinct, that's just the first word that came to mind.

And why are you apologizing for using the word?

Because I wasn't sure if it matched my description the best.

I see.

And I've used it a bunch. I don't know.

Got it. Well, one of the things that is maybe coming up for me is, um, you know, originally your mental model of an instinct was cry, and the babies cry right when they're born. But it sounds as if maybe these things like possibly walking and possibly talking, um, there is maybe some trial and error or some exposure, some modeling or some being around models who speak, who walk or speak the language. But what you're just saying is that, I like the fact that you used adaptive as well. Say more about what you meant by adaptive.

I mean that, I guess I brought up that word because I was thinking about how before there was maybe, I mean, before humans, and every single human talked a human language, spoke human language, even just before that, I wasn't sure if it would have been an instinct then as it is now, or if it even is an instinct, which is why I brought up the word maybe. Humans have adapted to have that somewhat instinct.

Got it.

Child.

Yeah, which brings me up to another case. My understanding is that some great apes, I think both gorillas and chimpanzees, can be taught the meaning of a certain number of words so that, like, a zookeeper or somebody in a wildlife habitat can communicate with them using human language. I don't think they ever speak it, but I think they can develop some vocabulary. Have you heard about this?

I haven't heard about how the great apes can speak, but I'm— I think I'm familiar with— I mean, like dogs, you can teach them to do things with commands in human languages, right? But did you say that the great apes were talking as well, or were they just understanding?

Just understanding. But yeah, I think they get— they can understand, they can be taught to understand, I think, a larger vocabulary than dogs, but still a pretty limited vocabulary. It would actually be an interesting question if dogs— I don't know honestly if dogs or great apes can be taught a larger vocabulary. But my understanding is it is difficult and takes a lot of work to teach a great ape this. So what does that tell us if and dogs are an interesting case, if both dogs and great apes may be able to understand human language, but nowhere near with the fluency of humans. Do you think that relates to our question at all as to what the nature of language is for humans?

I think it might be able to relate in the sense that, actually, I don't know because great apes and dogs, or we aren't necessarily gorillas and we're not dogs for sure. Um, I, so I don't think so, but the connection of them being able to understand the human language and then, um, the wild children being able to maybe, I don't know, I don't know how they communicate with the wolves or whatever, but maybe that could be connected, but I'm not sure.

I was actually going the other direction. I think this is an easier case where I was thinking because human beings developed normally, that is raised around human beings, become fluent in their native language naturally. Whereas, you know, dogs raised around human beings might learn a few commands. And then if you teach dogs, they'll learn more commands. But I don't think anyone would ever claim that dogs naturally become fluent. And then great apes, you know, with effort can be taught a handful of words, maybe 30 or 40, maybe more than that, but nowhere near the vocabulary and fluency of a native-speaking human being. So I, I was actually asking, is the fact that human beings, when raised around other human beings who speak a language, naturally become, I'll call it fluent, is that evidence that there's something like a language instinct? As opposed to being purely trial and error within human beings?

I think so, because if you compare the time it takes for a human being to become fluent in its vocabulary and language, maybe with the time that gorilla does, maybe just to the human language, it's a big difference in time, I think. At least become fluent. So I think it could be somewhat instinctive.

There's a famous book by, um, I'm pretty sure, right, I think there's a book called The Language Instinct by a man named Steven Pinker. I'm going to look it up right now to make sure I'm correct. Um, and the reason— yes, it looks like I am correct. There's a book called The Language Instinct by thinker. But the one way to think about this then is that there are maybe kind of modules in human brains such that they're activated when we're around human beings. You know, and so the case of being raised by wolves is sort of a strange situation. But if we're around human beings, we have an instinct for language that's activated. And then conversely, wolves or dogs and apes don't have that same language instinct to be activated. Does something like that make sense?

That makes sense. But my first thought was maybe to the, the wild child. Like, I remember you mentioned that when he was around humans, or when the cases were around humans, they didn't learn how to speak properly at all. Not at all, but they didn't learn how to speak properly. So, um, is it again the thing that comes when you're at a certain age?

That's where we, we may want to— so it sounds like your suggestion, and I think you're correct, that we need sort of an additional hypothesis. That is, um, maybe these language model modules, um, need to be informed by exposure to language during its sensitive period. That is, the language modules on their own don't simply give us language because otherwise wolf child would be able to speak, you know, a language fluently. But the reason I compared it to accent, learning a language is different than an accent, but I think it's more familiar to us that children can learn to speak flawlessly. Which is your most fluent language, second language at this point? Is it Spanish or Portuguese?

To be honest, probably Portuguese. I think I can understand more.

Do you know if you speak an accent in either of those languages?

Um, I've been told that the phrases that I can say don't have much of an accent, but I'm, I mean, I'm pretty sure I don't have a fluent accent, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it, it's interesting because I think it's around puberty, kind of around your age, when if we learn a language too late, we have, tend to have an accent. You were exposed to both Spanish and Portuguese earlier, and so maybe you have the sounds and the rhythm of the language and so forth such that it's possible you will be able— or you could learn how to speak them without an accent. Whereas if you wait till you're 18, probably would have an accent. Um, do you know enough Hawaiian to speak without an accent?

No, I don't know enough Hawaiian.

I, um, You just know handfuls.

I think I have just handfuls of words.

Got it. Do you know if your accent there is good at least?

I think it's okay. I don't think it's as good as my dad's or the grandpa's, but probably better than my random friend at school, I guess.

Of course. Of course. Well, you should ask people if they think you have an accent in Spanish, Portuguese, and Hawaiian. And see, because it's really about learning to make the sounds, forming the sounds. I think, you know, at some point our mouths, our tongues, you know, we make sounds through our mouths and tongues, they get used to a certain way of making noises, sounds. And so at some point, kind of your muscle memory in your face is sort of locked into, say, English sounds or whatever, such that it becomes hard to make the pure sound. Um, so that's sort of a digression from our core topic, but I thought it's interesting because you do have experience in these three languages. And in the case of Spanish, Portuguese, and Hawaiian, you were exposed when you're still young enough that you might have, uh, pretty much accent-free language in each of those languages. Um, but check, check to see. Um, and it might be something actually to work on because again, if you wait until you're 18, Uh, you'll be like, yeah, yeah. I think a few people with a lot of work can, can develop almost accent-free, but it's, it's a lot of work as you get older. Makes sense.

Yeah, I bet. Yeah, for sure.

Um, cool. In which case, we've already gone long again, but yeah, I think, you know, at some point when you're older, you should maybe read Pinker's The Language Instinct. Um, but for now, it seems like we've come to something where it's not like an instinct when your baby cries. But it's not pure trial and error either, because, you know, an ape or dog won't through trial and error become fluent in human language. But there's some kind of module that with external information leads to fluent walking or talking. Sound right?

Yeah, for sure.

All right. In which case, have a great day. We'll see you next time.

Awesome. Thank you, Michael. See you later. Welcome. Bye.