Jocko Willink: Discipline is Freedom

Okay, great. So, um, I wanted to check in on, uh, Way of the Warrior Kid. Tell me, did you read those books? How many of them did you read? Tell me about your relationship to Way of the Warrior Kid.

All right, well, there's 5 of them, I believe. I've read all of them. Um, I read the first one when it came out when I was 4, maybe 4 or 5. 4 and a half. It's actually what got me into jiu-jitsu because the main character in all of the— mixed in with all of the other solutions, or the story in the book, he starts training jiu-jitsu and learns how to defend himself. And after I read the book, it inspired me and I wanted to start too. So without that book series, I don't think I'd be where I am. So I'm grateful. It's also taught me a lot of lessons and stories, and it made my love of reading and learning grow. My brother has read the books, and he's benefited from them too. I think that overall, it's an amazing series, and everybody who reads it benefits.

Mm-hmm. Terrific. I may have lost the last couple of words there, but what is the primary message? If you could summarize, what are the primary message or messages from the book or books?

That's a good question because there's a lot of things that the book teaches, but I think the primary, or like the core of all that, is staying on the warrior kid path, which is Trying your best in everything, making sure you're healthy and responsible and being the best person you can be in all ways.

Wonderful. And do you actually know Jaco Willink?

I do.

How much? Does he know you?

He does know us. We say hi to him at tournaments and things like that. We used to train at Victory MMA, which is his gym where he trains in San Diego. So we met him there and he's a friend that we enjoy talking to whenever we see him.

Cool. One of the books had the label Freedom is Discipline. Do you agree? And if so, what does it mean to say freedom is— no, no, no, I got it wrong. Discipline is Freedom. I apologize. Uh, what do you agree that discipline is freedom, and if so, what does it mean?

I definitely agree, um, discipline is equal to freedom. I think having the discipline to do even the hard things, but if they benefit you and they benefit the people around you, you need to have the discipline to do it even if you don't want to. That's another one of the messages that the kids' book portrays. And I think it's great because I learned a lot from it and it's helped me so much.

Is physical discipline— are physical discipline and mental discipline the same or are they different?

Um, I, I mean, they're different but they go together. I think physical discipline, when you said that, made me think of like working out and doing physical things to make sure that you're healthy. And then mental is maybe, I don't know, school or pushing through those hard things in the way that they go together. If you're doing something very, I mean, physical and hard and tough and it's strengthening your body, it may not always be appealing. I've been in situations like that, but you need to have the discipline— sorry, discipline to do those things and make yourself free. Therefore, discipline equals freedom.

Got it. Would you say that you need discipline to do math or not really?

I mean, it depends, but yes, if you don't like math and it's not your favorite thing to do, um, and I think so for some kids, math is not an enjoyable thing, and for some it is. For those who find math enjoyable may not need— I mean, may need discipline to do the hard things, but overall I'd assume that it's like something natural. But I think to a lot of kids, it— you do need discipline to get yourself together and learn, do math, and do school, um, and not cheat yourself out of it.

And where are you on the spectrum of vis-à-vis math? Do you need discipline? You don't need discipline? You like to do math? You don't like to do math? It varies?

I do like to do math. I find it fun, especially the way um, or the way things are going now. I think if you make learning math fun, then it is fun. I think some kids see it as like a burden that you need to do, or a burden that you need to carry, you know, learning math, doing all those things in school. But sometimes if you just, um, look at it in the right way, then I think it depends and it becomes more enjoyable.

And how many days a week are you doing math over the summer?

Over the summer, it's a variable. I've recently been doing more than I have over the summer, but— hmm. I mean, in the summer it requires discipline because you're not— or I'm not on a schedule, or I am on a schedule and it's hard to fit things in. And then again, it depends. But I enjoy math, so it's easier for me to do it than maybe others.

Is it 1 day a week, 2 days a week, or all over the place?

All over the place. But I try to go a day or 2 a week.

Got it. And then are you spending any time at all on Harvard CS50 over the summer, or are you taking a break and waiting for the fall?

I'd say I'm looking into it. I'm learning and I am— I'm doing my best to fit it in. And I have different resources that I have. And I'm preparing to go into it after everything kind of dies down.

When are you— and after everything dies down, are those the big tournaments?

Yeah, the big tournaments. End of August, I think.

Okay, so it sounds like really, really towards the end of the summer you'll get back into the swing of things.

Oh yes.

And does it take discipline for you to read?

Ah, well, again, that depends. Um, I love reading, um, but I love reading about the things that I love to read about, you know? And I think that depends for each kid. I know my dad and other people I know were super, super into history and Some people are really into fiction and some people are into, I don't know, learning about solar system or whatever. Like my brother was really interested in the solar system when he was younger. And for me, I've always particularly enjoyed reading fiction and, you know, stories, especially because I enjoy making up stories. But lately, actually, I've been reading autobiographies and nonfiction and, um, but it's— but reading, or when discipline comes into, into reading, I think it's when you're reading something that benefits you, like maybe something for school, but it's not particularly enjoyable, or you don't have like a natural, oh, I'm gonna read right now, if that makes sense.

Totally makes sense. Out of curiosity, what autobiographies have you been reading?

Um, I've been reading, uh, I mean, I know— I don't know if it's a, like, a real autobiography, but it's a story of somebody's life written by the person. It's by Roald Dahl. It's called Going Solo. It's not— sorry, go ahead.

About his life?

Yes.

Got it. Why would it not be a real autobiography?

Because— or I say it might not be a real autobiography partly because I don't know the difference between the autobiography and, um, the other term used for it, but it has a slightly different meaning. I forget what the term is. And also because in my view, the other books by or written by Roald Dahl are not autobiographies, which slightly blurs my, I don't know, perception of it, but it is an autobiography and it's written by the author.

Got it. Sometimes memoirs are a little bit different, although they overlap. You know, an autobiography is kind of the story of your life. A memoir might be more reflections and memories, but obviously the story of your life includes your reflections and memories, and, or it could or should. And you could have reflections or memories that also include the story of your life. Is it more of a memoir or more of an autobiography?

Um, I'm not sure because it is a two-part thing. It's basically covering his life. It's not like— I've read a memoir before where it's kind of one part of the life or of somebody's life, but this one spans from when he's born to the part where I'm reading now. I'm not really sure. Maybe since it's that long, it'd be an autobiography, but I'm not sure.

Just going back to the big picture, this issue of discipline and learning. You know, one of the things we try to do at the Socratic Experiences, we like to support student interest. At the same time, some discipline in learning is important. And so that's why I was trying to— and it's tricky too, because I find You know, even with exercise, I find if I've been lazy for a while, then I need discipline to get back into it. But if I get into a rhythm, then I enjoy it and I don't need discipline anymore. And I think maybe it's even the same with math and reading hard things. Does that sound right with it? There's a period where we're lazy and we need discipline, but then we can also get to a point where we enjoy the hard thing.

I agree. Um, and I think for kids, That point is most, or probably mostly usually the summer where, oh, I'm on a break now, I can stop. And then it's hard to get back in, which I've had the problem with a couple times also.

Got it. Well, and some of this is how you view your summer. Do you believe that you should be taking it easy over the summer or do you believe you should be working harder? Or how do you even evaluate what's the right amount of break to take over the summer?

That's a good question. Um, I think I should be starting— I should start evaluating it like that. Um, I think that it depends on what your goals are for the summer. I mean, what you're— what you're getting smarter at for, I guess. Like, during the summer, I'm training extra hard at jiu-jitsu because my goal is to win all the tournaments this summer and this year. And if we're still talking about discipline, if it's— some kids may need discipline to do that, even if they find it enjoyable, even if it's just because it's the summer. If you need to wake up early or really, really focus.

Got it. Do you— what does the word recreation mean to you?

Well, when you say recreation, I think of kids playing at like a rec center, having fun. But I mean, that's the word, or that's the context where I hear recreation mostly.

And that makes sense. The reason I'm interested is at one point somebody pointed out to me the word, that the word recreation is re-creation. That is, we are recreating ourselves by playing. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I do think there's kind of a legitimate role for play. And I think those of us who are very much focused on self-discipline, it is worth thinking, what's the self-discipline part? Do you feel as if some play is appropriate?

Yes, I do think so.

Well, because, right, maybe Jaco doesn't. I mean, maybe Discipline is freedom, as we're all disciplined all the time. Do you think we should be all a bit of discipline all the time or not? How do we even decide that sort of thing?

Well, that depends what you're using the discipline for. I don't think that using discipline strictly means no playing. I think that, I mean, especially for a kid, maybe for an adult, I don't know how you would play, but For kids during the summer, playing is important and it's part of recreation. Taking a break and enjoying and running around. For example, a couple times, or more than a couple times this summer, we're gonna, we have them, we're going maybe to a friend's house or to the beach to go surf and play aside from all the other things we're doing.

Yeah, no, I think it's important to kind of reflect on all these things and get the right balance of work and play, discipline and freedom, all of that. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And of course, you are the world's leading expert on what's right for Ilana. Does that sound right? Do you think that's true?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay. In which case, have a great tournament, and I'll see you next time, okay?

Thank you. Bye.

Bye.