Loving your child's mind: Alana on persuasion

Are you going?

Actually, today I have a tournament and I'm just getting ready for that. Um, and just right now I'm in the car just so I can have some privacy.

Got it. Good. Are you all ready for your tournament? Are you feeling like you're in good shape for it?

I am. Yes.

Good. Excellent. Well, good luck with that, uh, and I'm sure you'll do wonderfully. I was thinking about persuasion. You know, we've been talking about connotation and denotation and how in your stories you might think about the emotional response of your readers. You remember all that?

Yes.

And it's a different topic, but it occurs to me that it's related to the issue of persuasion. And so I thought I'd check to see how do you think about persuasion if you wanted to persuade somebody of something? Something? How would you go about it?

Um, if I wanted to persuade somebody, maybe sometimes I would bribe them, or maybe just get them to really want to do it.

Okay, so bribe, one possibility. So what I'm thinking of is the process of getting them to want to do it through words. How would you use words to get somebody to want to do something?

Oh, you could tempt them with like— or you could tempt them with one of their favorite things, or you could tempt them with a prize or something, or you could tempt them just with something, or tempt them with the excitement of something, or that the idea that something's going to happen.

Okay, and so I would divide these into kind of external things, like things like prizes and bribes are external Whereas the excitement, that's— you're trying to get them excited on one side of themselves or something like that. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And so I'm thinking of, you know, again, using words. If you use a prize, that's not using your words exactly. The prize is doing the work, the bribe is doing the work. So if you wanted to use words, how do you use words to help somebody get excited about something?

You could use words like big or surprising or like superpowers or things to either intimidate them or make them want— or exciting, exciting. Any type of words that make them, that person that you're talking to, want to do it that you think.

So maybe let's play with a particular example. Suppose you want to get a friend to go to an event The friend is sort of maybe yes, maybe no. How do you get the friend excited about going to the event with you?

Maybe you could say there's gonna be whatever you like the most, or there's— or I'll cover it, I'll pay for it, or something.

Okay, um, and so this goes back to the excitement. Whatever you want the most, would you say that, um— well, I want to drill back into words. So do you think there are ways to say things that are more persuasive than others?

Yes, I do.

Has anybody— have you ever met anyone who's really, really good at persuading you of things?

I think I have. I just can't—

okay, how about going the other direction? Well, when you say you have, so how did that person— how did they use their words?

They made me very— or just to like do something, maybe like even if it was just small things, they would tempt me, not in a bad way, in a good way, like a good activity. And then they would not bribe, but they would make it sound super, super fun. And in reality, maybe it was kind of boring.

So they would use their words to get you to think that it was really exciting?

Yes.

Okay. And how about going— looks like maybe we've got Magat joining us. How about going the other direction? Do you know anybody who's just terrible at persuading you of something? That they, they just, even if it sounds fun, they make it sound unfun?

I've never really met anyone who makes things seem unfun. Or maybe they were trying to make it seem unfun, but Do you think that all people are the same with respect to persuasion?

That is, everybody is equally good at persuasion, or some people a little bit better?

I think some people are a little bit better because I've also known people that cannot persuade me. They may not be— they may not make it seem like it's going to be boring, but I'm— I just don't do it.

Okay, I want to bring Maga up to speed. So Maga, how are you? I'm fine, thank you for asking. And you? I'm well, thank you. Um, Alana and I are talking about persuasion, um, why it is that some people can persuade people of things and other people are not so good at it. And, um, she was just saying that some people are better at persuading people than other people are. Does it make sense?

I don't understand.

Okay, um, let me see if I can, um, get the word for persuade because that word is critical. So I'll look for it. Persuade. Persuade. Persuade. Persuade. Yes, yes, we're talking about how different people are better or worse at Persuadé. And Alana, apparently that's how they pronounce persuade in French. Do you see it? How it's the same word, but they just pronounce it differently? So going back to people that are different at persuasion, Alana, what's the difference between somebody who's good at persuading and somebody who's not good at persuading? How do they do things differently?

Someone who's good at persuading might have a more cheerful attitude, or he or she might maybe actually like seem excited about it, or they maybe bribe you with like, like I was saying, bribe you with like, "I'll cover for it, I'll pay for it," or just make you really want to go. And maybe people who aren't as good at that maybe won't be as truthful or state maybe the obvious instead of some of these heading facts.

So you said a lot, but I want to go with the simple one of kind of their emotional attitude. So let me try to give you two examples to see if I understand you correctly. Person A, suppose you want to get somebody to go to a birthday party tomorrow, and Person A says, hey, do you want to go to the birthday party tomorrow? It's going to be so much fun. And Person B says exactly the same thing, but you want to go to a birthday tomorrow, it's going to be so much fun. Would you say Person A is more persuasive than Person B?

Yes.

So part of it is kind of communicating emotion and excitement with nonverbal cues. Do you think those nonverbal cues make a big difference in persuasion?

Um, I think so, because they would be more interactive with me maybe, and they would, um, and they would catch my interest more.

Okay. The reason I started thinking about the words you use is because we have been talking about writing, as in, you know, your, your book and so forth. And I'm thinking sometimes writers try to persuade their readers of things. Does that seem accurate, that sometimes writers persuade their readers?

Yes.

And that's why I think you're right that kind of emotional tonality in interpersonal conversation makes a big difference in persuasion. You see I'm talking with my hands. It would be more boring if I didn't talk with my hands. You know what I mean? But as a writer, you don't get to be expressive. You don't get to talk with your hands. As a writer, all you have are the words on the page. And so my question is, as a writer, how can you use strictly words to be more persuasive?

You could add a lot of— not maybe dialogue, if you were— or a lot of information, a lot of information that you knew that, that you know that the reader would like, and maybe that would get them to do whatever your writing tells them to do, or maybe if just your style of writing, or maybe there could be explosive pictures that they like.

All of this is interesting. You know, in a way, pictures are almost like cheating because pictures are also another way to communicate emotion. But you said things that the reader would like. How do you know what the reader would like if you don't know who's going to read it?

You could just— you could just like not know ahead, but you could try and maybe ask different people just to see what they think.

Okay. So that's one technique, and you can ask different people to see what words are effective in persuading them. And then you said more information. How could information help persuade a reader?

Because information tells them more, and maybe if you put more information, then they would be more likely to listen or read and actually do what you're telling them to do because they know what to do. Because of the information.

So when you say information, some information is really interesting and other information is really boring, right?

Yes.

So how do you know which information is going to be interesting and persuasive versus which information is going to be negative?

Um, you could Actually, that's hard. I guess you could actually test it on yourself because you might have similar preferences with other people.

Okay, so it goes back to testing. It was which words— how do you know which words are persuasive? You test it on other people. And how do you know which information is persuasive? You test it on other people. Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay, Magat, there's some noise in the background, so I'm muting you because it's hard to hear. We've got some noise in the background, so I'll check in with you in a minute, but right now there's noise in the background. Um, so yeah, I was having a hard time hearing. For some reason he has this noise. So I think you said something else: if we want to persuade the reader, we use words and we test the words We use information, we test the information, we use pictures, and I said that was sort of like cheating, and not really. I mean, it's great to have books with pictures, but it's like, you know, we know that you can convey persuasive information by the excitement and energy people have. Are there any other ways you can persuade people with words?

You could maybe act like it's a big deal that they're coming, or maybe that they'd be so sad if you didn't come.

And you're talking— you're speaking as a writer, that as a writer you can say it would be a big deal, and you— what you want is maybe suppose in the book you're writing there's a birthday party and you want to persuade the reader that it's exciting to go to the birthday party. Are you saying that you could get them to care about the character and be motivated about whether the character goes to the birthday party? Is that kind of what you're thinking?

I meant like if another character like acted all sad and then if that— if the other character didn't come and then that could also make the readers, like the reader feel sad. Scared for that character, maybe something bad or something good.

What I'm getting is that, um, if the reader is experiencing this emotional dynamic between the characters, then that might persuade the reader. Is that a fair summary?

Yes.

Do you think that your readers, when they read your dialogue, are engaged in the emotional dynamic between your characters? Mm-hmm.

I think so. I do. And I wrote this new part in the new book, and it kind of played with my emotions, and it was cool.

Excellent. Excellent. Well, again, I want you to send it to me so I can read it, and I can see if in your language your characters are playing with my emotions. That would be really cool. I want to just check in with Magat because he has had bad internet. So Magat, let's go ahead and bring you back in. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Go ahead and unmute, Magat. Let's see if the— are you there? I think he's there, but for some reason I'm not hearing his voice. Are you speaking? Try speaking, saying something, Maga.