Loving your child's mind: First week at The Socratic Experience

So how has— this is your first week back to school. How was this week?

It was awesome. I really enjoyed it.

Great. What did you guys discuss in Socratic?

Some of the, um, or yeah, some of the things that we talked about, um, were about Emily Dickinson's poems. I don't want to mispronounce her last name. I've had trouble. Um, we also had a tiny discussion about, um, environment and what and how it affects other people. Not like all, like the Earth included, but also just figurative and smaller environments. Uh, we also talked about M.C. Escher and some of his art pieces.

Excellent. That's a lot. Um, so first with Emily Dickinson, what do you think of Emily Dickinson so far?

Well, I don't know much about her personal life, but I mean, I— we learned about her a little bit, and she seems very, uh, not open to other— or she doesn't really want to be around other people, and she'd rather just be by herself. I forgot what the word for that is, but, um, I, I thought her poems were great. We did this assignment where we had to pick a different Emily Dickinson's poem and write about what we thought it was about. And I picked this really short one, but I think it was called "Fame is a Bee." I thought it was really interesting. It was only like 4 lines.

Going back to just— did you describe her as an introvert, somebody who doesn't like to be around other people?

Yes.

Okay. Yeah, we can talk about introvert versus extrovert at some point. Well, actually, maybe it's worth doing that. Have you heard the word extrovert?

I have.

Do you think of yourself as an introvert or an extrovert?

Um, well, I'm not really an introvert. I like to be around other people, so I guess I would call myself an extrovert.

The best description I've heard of the two terms is, although you can say about liking to be around people or not liking to be around other people, We're liking to be alone versus liking to be around people. I like the description that extroverts gain energy from being around other people, whereas introverts gain energy by being alone. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Would you say you gain energy by being around other people or by being alone, or a little of both?

Um, I mean, I would say a little bit of both because I do love being around other people, but it does help when I'm alone and I get to think, just try it.

Yep. Um, yeah, I would say I'm actually very much an introvert. I enjoy being with people, but I gain energy by being alone, you know what I mean? Um, whereas there's some people that totally— total extroverts. Some people actually hate being alone. They always want to be around people. Um, do you know anybody who's a real introvert?

A real introvert?

Yeah.

Um, uh, I can't— I don't know. I can't think of anybody currently. I mean, there— I've met a few really, really shy people, but I'm not sure that's the same thing as being an introvert.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. And one way I think about that is I've met some shy people who are super shy until they get to know you, And then once they get to know you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes they actually love being around people, but there's, I think, a certain amount of fear and anxiety around new relationships. But once the relationship is no longer new, then they're very open and talkative and so forth.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I would agree it's different. How about, do you know anybody who's an extreme extrovert, who's just always about being around other people?

I think I could name a few. Maybe one or two that I can think of right now. Definitely.

Yeah. No, there are people like that. I want to go back to Emily Dickinson's poetry. How would you describe her poetry in general?

Well, it didn't make very— the first poem that we read didn't really make much sense. But we did sort of— there were some lines that we could make something out of. And so that kind of gave us a smaller picture. I think I could tell that it was written just by her and by nobody else, nobody else helping her. I liked it like that.

What do you think she cares about? Do you have any idea of what she cares about?

Well, I know that she was in nature a lot, so that's one possibility. But other than that, I'm not sure.

Okay. And since I don't know the particular poems you read, I'm not in a position to kind of go more deeply. We could look them up, but instead I want to skip to Escher. What did you think about Escher?

I really liked his artwork, and I think that his passion for those shapes was really interesting because he would carve them out of wood and then print them. Which seemed harder than just drawing them. So I thought that was really cool. And some of the drawings he made were so realistic, I was just blown away.

Had you ever heard of M.C. Escher before or seen his art?

No, I hadn't.

No, it's very interesting. And what do you— what— how would you describe what he's trying to do as an artist?

Well, he's— yeah, I mean, the first drawing that we— or yeah, the first artwork that we looked at it. Yeah, it was sort of an illusion. I mean, there was different— same shapes but going different angles. And even if you turned the paper the opposite way, you'd still see a picture. Yeah, I think that's really cool.

And how do you— do you understand how the illusions work? Could you do a similar illusion?

I think I couldn't. I don't think I could draw something that like that yet, or at least have a picture of it in my mind. Um, I think that with a lot more— I mean, he must have just practiced and practiced. I mean, that was beautiful.

What do you think? Why would somebody be interested in illusions like that? Do you have any idea?

Well, I mean I guess I'm not sure, but I guess one would like looking at illusions. They trick your brain and it's fun to think about. It's also— it'd probably be fun to actually make too.

Mm-hmm. So kind of fun to trick your brain. Have you seen other kind of illusions like that before?

I have. Yeah, I have.

And would you say you like to explore things that, in your language, trick our brains?

Yes, definitely.

Do you have any idea why our brains can be tricked like that?

Um, I think, and I'm not, or I don't know the actual answer, but I guess you could say that your eye, or your brain, or your eyes are just so used to seeing one thing that when they see the illusion, they get all confused because they hadn't— they're used to this being one way and not the other.

No, I think, um, it's interesting to sort of explore. So you were saying our eyes had a certain expectation, um, you know, used to seeing one thing. I described that as had a certain expectation. And I, I do think this gets into how our minds process reality. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And even sometimes I've known people have gotten into how does vision work and how do our brains work and why is it that certain things can trick our brains. Because do you think our brains are ever tricked in real life or is it strictly in these kind of illusions?

Um, well, what do you mean tricked in real life? Can you give me an example?

Yeah, actually, have you ever seen a straw be put in water and how it's crooked? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yes.

What do you think's going on there?

Well, that's the light. Well, yeah, that's the light going through the glass and through the water. It's making it look crooked. But I think that that's because we see it that way. Our mind or our eyes, we see the straw going down and then it cut— it's cut off, and then the other side goes down an inch away from it.

It sounds like you've observed this, um, a lot. Have you just observed this, or did you watch a video about it, or did somebody teach you about it, or how do you know about this?

Um, I think I've always noticed it when I was younger, but I, I think when a few years ago I did get an assignment about that particular illusion Uh-huh.

And how do we know that the straw is— how do we know it's the light rather than the straw is bending? One, one theory would be the straw bends when you put it in the water, but you're saying the straw remains straight and it's light that's giving us an illusion. How do you know which one it is?

Well, first you can take the straw out and, uh, check if there are any crease marks, uh, and second I mean, if it's bending, there is no force to actually bend the straw, which could be pretty strong because it's— most of the straws are plastic.

I don't—

I honestly don't like paper straws. They get all soggy and bendy. It's weird.

Do you think that Escher is doing something in his illusions similar to the straw and water illusion, or are they different somehow?

Well, they're not— the light isn't tricking The light isn't going on to the artwork and then making something happen. It's just the way he creates it. And I do think it's something like that. It's still an illusion where you see something, but then you notice another thing and then it gets all confusing. Like the piece that we were looking at first.

Yeah.

I forget what it was called, but there were different stairways, maybe one stairway, but it had a stairway going upside down and on top. And so where there were people walking upside down and stuff on the wall, it was really crazy.

But so our minds expect reality to be a certain way. And part of what an illusion is, is somehow— I mean, that— he's done several different ones. So I'm not sure which picture you were looking at, but I know Escher has done several different ones where, right, the stairs seem to be going kind of both up and down at the same time, or people are walking on one side walking down the other, and you realize, your mind realizes it can't be both, but it kind of looks as if it's both. Does that sound accurate?

Yes.

So we have certain expectations about reality. That's why it's a— you're a— I think you're right, the straw thing is different, but the way in which it's similar is that because we, we— I, I think everybody believes the straw is straight. I was kind of seeing how you interpreted it. I, I don't know anybody who actually believes the straw bends when you put it in water. But it does seem weird somehow. I think our expectation is straight straw, if it's in a transparent liquid, should still look straight. And so our mind kind of has to figure out what's wrong. Um, you know, that is, it's out of expectation with, I guess, our perception and reality are confused. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

Yeah, no, these illusions and how our minds work and perception and vision and brain function Super interesting. But, you know, we'll dig into that more later. I want to check on, you know, how the environment affects us. Were you guys talking more about physical environment or social environment or something else or both?

Well, we were talking about both, or kind of, yeah, like talking about maybe the social community environment and then the actual environment. And maybe like your house or how you're— how the people around you treat you, the environment around you.

Would you say you were already pretty aware of that, or did you kind of develop new awareness about how your social environment impacts you?

Well, I mean, I guess I knew about and I could figure out all of that stuff on my own, but it did make me think about it, and it did kind of opened me up to it because I never really thought about it before. Because whenever somebody said environment, I would think the Earth. And not just a particular place.

So talking about a social environment is new for you?

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. And one of the reasons I— so I'm glad that you guys talked about that. One of the reasons I think it's important in working with groups, you know, in these Socratic dialogues when it's like a group of 10, 15 kids, How many kids are in your group? Is it like 10 or 15?

Somewhere closer to 15, I think, because we did get a few new students on Monday.

Okay. Yeah, I, I think it's, um, valuable to be aware of how people interact because I don't know in your class, but sometimes there are a few kids who dominate. Other times, um, sometimes kids can be mean to each other. Sometimes people can say something and their comment is ignored. Those are just a few examples, but because I lead this with groups, I'm very aware about how to get everybody— is that your brother? Yes. Speaking of social environments, you've got a brother distracting you. So, but yeah, do you see what I mean about how valuable it is to be aware of the human interactions in a group?

Yes, it is.

Would you say that your group participation is pretty balanced or some people dominate?

Um, I'd honestly say that some people dominate, but while others type in the chat because their mic isn't working or something. But yeah, I think there is like some people who talk more and then some who talk in the chat and then some who talk less.

And then where would you put yourself?

I try to talk a lot. I try to put my ideas in. So I would say I do talk about the subject a lot. I sometimes type in the chat if I'm relocating. Like, I think on Tuesday or Thursday, I was with my mom, so I had to chat a lot.

I would expect that you would talk a lot, both because you're an extrovert and also you've been doing this kind of dialogue forever, so I think it's very easy for you. Um, the other thing is, uh, you know, you might think of ways to— and maybe you already do this— would you say you find ways to help other people feel comfortable if they don't yet feel comfortable?

Uh, do you mean just specifically, uh, in my class or just—

yeah, for now, for now, just in your class.

And what do you mean by comfortable?

Oh, good question, good question. So often I think kids, kids who are new and/or kids who are shy may not— or kids who are not very confident. So new, shy, or not confident might not talk very much. Do you think you have kids who are quiet because they're either new or shy or not confident?

Well, I mean, I think they're— I mean, I don't think they're shy because we've been in class for— I forget how long it's been now, but we kind of all know each other. The newer kids actually do talk a lot and they do try to put their thoughts into it. And I really like that. And some people go on like, oh, they talk a lot, and then the next day they're like, they just don't talk a lot. So it's kind of uneven, and I'm not sure how to answer that.

No problem. It could be that maybe there's nobody who needs support. Would you say everybody, that it's actually pretty balanced participation overall?

Overall, I think so.

Terrific, terrific. Sometimes that's not the case, and every group is different. Every group of human beings is different. You know, there are— I've seen groups where a couple people dominate and they shut down other people. I have seen other groups that are super balanced and everybody is supportive and everybody's, you know, feels welcome to participate. Would you say everybody feels pretty welcome to participate?

I mean, I think most, most of them. Um, and I have this one person in mind. Sometimes, or she just kind of, um, like sometimes she chats and she chats, um, and sometimes when she's called on, she speaks. Uh, but I'm not sure if I would count that as shy or not confident or anything.

Okay, in which case, maybe things are going pretty well. Um, but I— this is one example of why I think it's useful to be aware of the social environment, just because it could be— so I think of groups as kind of maybe sometimes really healthy and sometimes not healthy, qua group, or as a group. And it sounds like maybe your group is pretty healthy, but one of the reasons I'm— I like thinking and talking about the social environment is just to make sure everybody— that it's working for everybody. Does that make sense?

Yes. Definitely.

And I thought that you would be especially good at being aware if maybe it's not super healthy. So if it is, maybe you can support Karen, you know, because my bet— I actually suspect it's healthy in part because I expect Karen's really good at making sure everybody feels welcome. Is that accurate?

Yes, definitely.

Do you ever observe how Karen is leading the group?

Sometimes, yes.

Yeah, you might. Again, you're super young, but, you know, sometimes when I have older students, we have the older students lead groups on their own. Could— and I know it's way early because you're brand new and you're only 10, but could you imagine leading groups on your own?

Possibly. If I had, like, I guess I could, but I'd have to plan everything out.

Of course. I'm thinking 6 or 7 years from now, so a long, long, long, long way away from now. But I'm just thinking, yeah, I think it's interesting to observe the group. So in addition to your own ideas, when we're in these conversations, you know, you're reading Emily Dickinson or looking at M.C. Escher, you're having your own ideas about Dickinson or Escher, you're also listening to everybody else's ideas about Dickinson or Escher, and then sometimes on top of that, you can kind of observe what's going on in the group. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Do you see how complicated it is to have the author, your ideas, their ideas, and then on top of that, what's going on in the group?

Yes. Yeah.

So you're kind of— would you say you're kind of aware of all those different layers?

Um, I think so. Yes.

Yeah, I think it's super— one of the reasons I love doing this is especially in a group, you know, with you and I, you know, you talk, I talk, ideas, my ideas, your ideas, pretty simple. When you have like 15 human beings, it's so complicated. But I like to have my mind super active, and part of it is I enjoy making sense of everything that's going on in the group. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Would you say you enjoy making sense of everything that's going on in the group?

I do. Yes.

I expect so. I would expect you really love it. So, um, I am going to let Logan have you for the rest of the day. So have a wonderful week and I'll see you next week. Okay.

Thank you. See you later.

Bye-bye.