Loving your child's mind: Four years of Alana's development

Hello, I'm Michael Strong, founder of Expanse, an online program for children ages 8 and up based on Socratic dialogue. I'm also the author of The Habit of Thought: From Socratic Seminars to Socratic Practice, and I have spent most of my adult life engaging in intellectual dialogue with children. I love the minds of young people. I love the minds of all people, but I especially love the minds of young people. And I'm going to share with you some adventures I've had in intellectual dialogue with a young woman named Ilana. I began having conversations with her about ideas when she was 4. She is now 8, and we will look at sample clips on YouTube of her when she was 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. And ultimately you'll see her development, and I think that the kind of interaction that she and I, along with her parents and I, have engaged in have helped her to become a thoughtful, articulate 8-year-old. So we'll start by hearing Alana at age 8 discussing a book she's read, and then we'll go back to Alana at age 4 and gradually come up. To the present again. A while.

Yeah, I did.

And usually would you write a whole chapter in one sitting, or did each chapter take you several days or several weeks?

Uh, mostly a chapter would only take me one sitting, so yeah.

It seems like all the chapters kind of fit together. It's like one adventure. Um, And then of course they build to the big battle. So how soon did you know that you were going to have a big battle?

Um, I wanted to have a really big battle before I even started writing it, to be honest.

So, so you kind of knew, so you knew you were going to have a big battle, and so did you think you'll have 4, 5, 6, 7 little kind of little adventures first? And then sort of build up to the big battle? Did you have that, that logic for your story built in?

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's how my mind processed it.

Okay. So again, in a sense, just very natural ordinary conversation with her, but I want to call attention to a few little things. One is it's wonderful to have an 8-year-old child writing a 20-page book with 8 chapters. The other thing is I dig into her writing process much as if she was an adult, as if she were— was being interviewed by— on Fresh Air on NPR. What was your writing process? What were you thinking? And this is the most basic and obvious aspect of loving your child's mind, is focusing on the mind, taking her mind seriously, taking her mental processes seriously. So to say the obvious, if a parent focuses on a child's misbehavior, they might get more of that misbehavior. If a parent focuses on a child's appearance, they will delight in appearing good to the parent. If a parent focuses on the child's athleticism, they may show off to get more praise for their athleticism. If a parent focuses on right or wrong answers, um, you know, what is the name of this animal, the child will strive to get more right answers. And if one focuses on the process of thought, the habit of thought, the interior of their mind, then it's my belief that you will help develop and expand— that's why my school is called Expanse— the mind of your child. And so we'll look at some more examples, but remember, attention is love. What you give attention to is what you will get more of. With respect to your child. So Alana, do you think that Logan knows his own name?

Yeah. I'm just like, "Um, let me call Logan." Call Louie or Logan, he like looks to us and then I think he runs back.

Wow. So you're saying that when you call Logan, you think he understands and he responds to it one way or another.

Is that correct?

Yeah.

Super.

So that's one.

So again, this is very simple. Here she is at 4, charming as can be, and I'm asking how she knows that her brother Logan, age 1, knows his own name. And first, you know, initially her father was tempted to answer the question, but I wanted to know what Alana thinks. And so another simple guidance with respect to loving your child's mind is There will always be other people ready to answer questions. I want the child to answer the question. I want the child to receive the full focus of my attention. And you'll also note that I'm asking how she knows, how she knows, how she thinks. Whether or not those words completely make sense to her at this age, 4, I have no idea. But I'm introducing examples and talking in the language of thought, understanding, and so forth. And you'll also notice I'm asking how she knows, and when she gives me an answer, I repeat it. And so I am trying to once again expand on her own answers in ways that might make sense to her. So in some respects, the notion that she would know how she knows her child's name, her little brother, how she would know that her little brother knows his name, might seem a little bit advanced for a 4-year-old. And maybe it is, but it's my belief that if we talk in a way that expands the child's mind, we will expand the child's mind. I'll go back to a personal experience that I had. My parents were uneducated. My mother was a high school dropout. My father was an elevator repairman. But I remember at the ages of 4, 5, 6, my father explaining concepts to me— volts, amps, all the, these sorts of electrical things. And I Initially, I had no idea what he was saying. I remember working hard to understand what he was saying. And I think the effort of working hard to understand what he was saying actually did develop my mind to a considerable extent. And the analogy I give is that at present, if I go to a Spanish-speaking country, my Spanish is strong enough that with very hard work from my brain, I can kind of understand. But my Spanish is weak enough that without really hard work from my brain, I cannot understand. And so if I spend a week trying to spend the whole week in Spanish, my brain is exhausted. I'm so tired. I am focused. I'm thinking. And to connect this to another well-known example, there is a huge literature on the 30 million word gap where parents— children from educated homes enter school with an alleged 30 million, having heard an additional 30 million words. There's some controversies about that, but there is no doubt that being raised in a verbally rich environment is valuable. More recent research has begun looking at the nature of the interaction, that it's perhaps not just words, but some of it is looking at, are there responses back and forth between children and what kinds of responses? So without a full research base on exactly the impacts of the kind of thinking and talking that I'm doing with Lana, I want to point out that 3 pieces of evidence that lead me to think there's something here in addition to what you'll see with Alana. One is my own experience of just working hard to understand with my father when I was this age and finding it, I think, a really powerful experience. And another is my own experience of trying to understand as an adult in contexts where it's challenging for me to understand, but with effort I can, as in learning or updating my Spanish in an immersion situation. And finally, the notion that there is a research base showing the verbal environment in which children are raised makes a big, big difference. So let's go back and look at a few other examples with Lana and see what might be going on here. Pterodactyls, right?

Yes, I do.

And you said that pterodactyls are different from birds, right?

Yes.

Remind me why you think pterodactyls are different from birds.

Because they have hands on the wings.

Like those hands on the wings. So that makes, that makes it so no way is a pterodactyl a bird. Um, okay, so how about our— and we've talked, I'm trying to remember last week. Is it okay if we go over last week's conversation?

The definition again?

Yes. I'm trying to remember. So you said that dragonflies are not birds either, right?

Yes, because they have 4 wings.

I see. So how about this? Suppose you pull off— and this is a really mean thing to do— if you pull off 2 of the wings on dragonflies so they only have 2 wings, is a dragonfly then a bird?

No.

Why not? So a couple of things here. First, one of the things I'm always trying to do is, even at the age of 4— so this is still when Alana is 4— I'm trying to get her to use her own judgment. And I think that's worth focusing on for a little bit because, again, very often those who educate young people are very focused on making sure they have the right answer. The typical pattern with many teachers and many students is to tell them what something is, then ask them if they know what it is, and have them give us a right or wrong answer where we are the judge of whether or not the answer is right or wrong. I'm doing something very different here. I want her to come to her own understanding And with respect to, you know, I know she knows that a bird is not a pterodactyl. I want her to explain why to me why she thinks a bird is not a pterodactyl. I know she knows that a dragonfly with, well, first a dragonfly is not a bird, and then a dragonfly with two free or wings is not a bird, but I want her to explain it. And part of the trust basis that I'm working on with her is that I'm letting her know implicitly by the nature of our interactions that when we're engaged in these kinds of conversations, I'm relying on her to come to her own conclusions. I want her to think things through on her own. And I would make the case that this is another form of loving your child's mind, loving their reasoning powers, loving, loving how they come to their own conclusion. So, let's get a few more examples and discuss that more. But first, let's look at a regular classroom and see just how different an environment it is.

Can you tell me what 2 2 is? Who's got it?

Mm-hmm.

4. Excellent, Donna, it is. 2 2 is indeed 4. Okay. Who wants to try 3 3?

So again, in a standard classroom, what's the right answer? And one of the things that I'm always looking at is not any particular interaction with the child, but what habits are being formed. Again, my book, The Habit of Thought, or to use a different term, what experiences are they being pickled in? So if their only experience is recitation, reciting the right answer, then their judgment is not being developed, their autonomy as a thinker is not being developed, their own process as a thinker is not being developed. And there are certainly people whom I respect who don't believe that we should, um, worry about this aspect of a child's mind until they're perhaps in adolescence, and some people even later. I actually think there's tremendous value in starting earlier, and one of the reasons I believe that is, in my experience, when I begin— the younger I begin helping a child develop his or her their own judgment by means of these conversations, develop the habit of thought, of thinking for themselves, I find that over time they become extraordinary. And that by the time one does enter secondary school, middle school, and wants them to begin thinking more abstractly, they've got a much richer foundation for understanding ideas than does a child who's only seen right or wrong answers, who's only had the experience of that kind of interaction with an adult. I've worked in hundreds, literally hundreds of classrooms across the US, public, private, parochial, and very often I can tell those children doing Socratic dialogue, that's my thing, I can tell immediately those children who come from homes in which this kind of verbal interaction, discussions of ideas, thinking about ideas is the norm, and those children that do not come from such homes. And the children who are used to this kind of thought are able to become much more readily capable of, say, writing an essay where they have a thesis and they need to defend it, of expressing their own opinion and defending it in a conversation. I actually see this kind of verbal development and cognitive development to be a tremendous advantage with respect to high-order thinking skills as they become much more valuable and necessary in adolescence. So I'm an advocate of beginning with this kind of interaction when they're young, not in a stressful way, not in a, um, I'm going to, you know, try to get you to be a genius or anything kind of way, but because it's fun. I think if it's fun for the child and fun for the adult, and it can be casual, friendly, warm experience, why not expand their minds? They're pretty amazing. They're one of the best toys ever, I think.

What did you play on Skype?

Um, some puzzles.

Really? So I have a question. You ready to start with questions?

Yes.

So I always, I always think about things. So when you say a puzzle, I immediately think, what is a puzzle? Does that seem like a weird question?

Yes.

Do you mind weird questions?

Yes.

You do mind. It means you don't want me to ask you weird questions.

I do.

Okay, so tell me what a puzzle is. How do we know if something is a puzzle? Hmm? How do we know whether or not something is a puzzle? Are Legos a puzzle?

No.

Why not?

But we can build stuff on it.

Could you build a puzzle out of Legos?

No. Yes.

No or yes?

Are you thinking about it? Maybe both?

Yes.

Okay, so let me think about other examples of things that might be puzzles. Is a book a puzzle?

Yes.

What makes a book into a puzzle?

Like when you read.

So reading is a puzzle?

Yes.

Okay.

How about eating lunch? Is eating lunch a puzzle?

That's a funny one.

So now we'll give you a very simple technique. Um, concept teaching— there's a traditional form of concept teaching where one gives children an example of the concept, an example of the concept, an example of concept, and a counterexample of the concept. This is a dog, this is a dog, this is a dog, this is not a dog. This is a table, this is a table, this is a table, this is not a table. One approach to questioning that I often use, and if you watch my Four Years of LANA videos, you'll see using this approach with dozens and dozens of concepts. What is a puzzle? What is a song? What is music? What is justice? What is truth? What is a bird? And so forth and so on. And often in order to get a child thinking independently, as I'm working to do here, often a child, especially a young child, can be very agreeable and they'll say yes and yes and yes and yes. And so here I'm deliberately getting her to the point where I offer her such an absurd question— is lunch, eating lunch, a puzzle?— that she knows it's not. And once she realizes that I am going to ask her questions that may or may not make sense, and that she can't count on me to give her a hint as to what answer I want, then she's going to start realizing that I really am asking her questions. I want to know what she thinks. And she'll come to her own thought processes. So one of the big victories I see in my years with Alana is seeing her become a significantly more independent thinker as she gets older. And I mean significantly more independent such that by the time she's 8, she is expressing her own opinions and articulating them remarkably well. So let's get another piece. So, I have a question for you. Are you ready to start thinking about stuff?

Yes!

Okay, I've been wondering, why do you think that some things fly? So, you know, normally I've got a little ball here like a seed and I drop it. You know, normally things just fall, right?

Yeah, but some animals fly.

So why is it that some things drop and fall, but other things fly?

Because other things do not have wings.

So if something has wings, then they fly, is that right?

Yeah.

How about, have you ever played with soap bubbles? You know what soap bubbles are? You blow bubbles and then they sometimes float up into the air.

Mm-hmm.

I played with them before.

Are they fun?

Yes.

I think they're really cool. Sometimes they're really huge soap bubbles. What's the biggest soap bubble you've ever made? This big. Wow, that's huge.

Mm-hmm.

Or maybe this big.

Wow, that's really big. So why is it that sometimes soap bubbles fly? Because they don't have wings.

Well, they don't have wings because they're not an animal. They are just little bubbles.

That's true, but I guess I'm wondering why is it that a soap bubble doesn't just drop like that?

Well, because of the air, it pushes it.

So again, still Fora, just cute as can be. And by the way, one of the things I often do is ask for her consent. Are you okay with questions? You want to questions? And so I often do want to make sure she's up for this. And as you can see, usually she just loves it. She almost always is. In fact, she always is. But her enthusiasm is lovely. But in addition to concept teaching, where I have concept, concept, concept, and counterexample, or example, example, example, counterexample, Another kind of way that you can find fun things to explore is try to get her, or if it's obviously a boy, his understanding of how the world works. And again, I'm honestly curious. I want to know how she thinks about these things. So I was very curious to see what her explanation for why bubbles float. If birds fly because they have wings and bubbles don't have wings, why do they float? And I thought it was wonderful that she thought about the air pushing it up. But again, I love it when she pauses to think about it. That's my real goal, is to have her pause and think, and to have her know that I want to sit there and think with her. I'm not here to judge her answer, but I want to have— I expect her to provide a rationally consistent response. And if there is contradictory information, I present her with contradictory hypotheses or information and see how she evaluates it. And it's a fun game for both of us. I was wondering if we can— if you're ready to do a little bit of thinking.

Okay, I'm ready.

Okay, good.

So first, what happens when you think?

Think?

When you think.

Oh, when you think, you get smarter.

We do.

How can you tell when you're thinking?

Because of your brain.

So does your brain say, "Hello there, I'm thinking right now"?

No, it just thinks.

It just thinks. Do you think dogs think?

Yes. All the things in the whole world think except the objects.

So give me an example of an object that does not think.

Trees.

Okay, so trees don't think. How about houses? Do houses think?

No.

How about bicycles?

No.

Do books think?

No.

Um, how about mosquitoes?

Yes.

What do mosquitoes think about?

Like when they bite people, they actually think of doing that.

So a couple of things here. First, um, metacognition is a fancy word for thinking about thinking, and there's a huge literature on how often capable thinkers are more aware of their own thought processes. Here, Helana is still 4, and in a certain sense, it's ridiculous to expect her to have that self-awareness about what her own thought processes are. Yet my attitude is, let's go ahead and start talking about thinking and thinking about thinking and reflecting about thinking and reflecting about her own thought processes and get her thinking about what counts as thought in the world. And over time that will expand and she'll become remarkably self-aware. The other thing is, of course, I'm continuing to give her opportunities to separate the world into her own categories. And so I think it's fascinating she has such a clear idea that living things think, objects do not, and pretty good categorization there. But I go ahead and explore different, uh, boundaries with her. And again, it's a fun game for us to play. So what do you want to think about today?

I don't know.

Okay, usually I'll come up with something to think about, but I thought I'd let you see if you had any ideas. Um, let's, let's think about the water.

Why do you think, why do you think there are waves at the ocean?

Because it rains. That's why.

So do you think that if it rains more, then the waves are bigger?

Yes, but I don't think the waves are going to be bigger. I never seen one, but I see one before, but I never seen anyone.

So if rain causes waves, does rain cause waves in a swimming pool?

Swimming pools don't have waves.

That's what I thought, but it rains in the pool and it rains in the ocean, right?

Yes. Well, maybe there's little waves in the pool.

So again, Alana is still 4. I'm doing the kind of logical consistency thing with her, and, um, I regard it as just a really beautiful moment when I'm asking her— her explanation for waves is rain, rain causes waves. I point out that raindrops also hit pools and it doesn't seem to cause waves. And she is thinking through the logical implications. She's there with me and her eyes go round and she realizes that if rain causes— if she's claiming that rain causes waves in the ocean, and she's claiming that the causal factor is rain, then maybe there are little waves in a pool. And again, um, A, I love the way she's already logically consistent, and B, I love the fact that she has a sustained focus on thought—her thought, rational thought. I've worked with much older students that cannot sustain an extended logical discussion And because this is fun for her and it's becoming a habit for her, we could go on at length thinking about this. And it's enough, again, a form of loving her mind, loving reasoning with her. And as a consequence, those reasoning powers are gradually growing. I thought I'd throw that in there just to remind everyone of what a stark difference it is to love a child's mind versus perhaps, uh, being focused on that sort of beauty pageant thing. We are formed by our experiences. We as parents and educators nurture certain seeds within a child, and we're helping some things grow, but and some things not grow. And again, whatever you want to grow in your child, pay attention to what you're watering, what you're nurturing, what you are giving attention to in your child. So actually, do you know how— why do some things reflect? Do you have any idea what a reflection is?

I don't know. But I think I probably know, but it's in my idea.

So, but you know that mirrors reflect, right?

It probably bounces off of the glass so it can reflect.

And what is the 'it' that bounces off the glass?

The reflection that The light comes to the window, but it's actually staying right there. But it's bounced— the light is bouncing off the window so it can show the tree.

So Alana is 5 at this point. She's been doing it with me, having these conversations with me for about a year. And I like that she is completely comfortable saying, "I don't know." Every teacher in every classroom says, "Oh, don't." feel free to say you don't know, so feel free to ask a dumb question. And, but I see it a matter of trust, allowing a child— if one wants to really help a child think for oneself, one needs to create an environment in which they can say, I don't know. And yet she is exploring it, she's, she's trying to think it through. And I actually really love the way she tries to reason out what causes a reflection, what is it that's being reflected. And She's trying to do it because she wants to understand it. And she knows that I care. I love her understanding. And so she's right there with me in terms of reasoning through this. We'll jump ahead and we'll get to her 8-year-old self pretty quickly. But I thought we'd stop along the way a few times. It's been a little while, but do you remember talking about magic? Do you remember when we were talking about magic?

Yes, I remember that.

So we were, we were looking at the world of magic in Harry Potter, right? Yeah. And then also magic as in like card tricks and making things disappear, like the things magicians do.

Yeah. And would—

could you remind me what you thought the difference was, or are they the same, the Harry Potter?

I think personally they're a little different.

Okay, explain the difference.

Well, one, we, um, humans have a little different way of doing magic than like, you know, Harry Potter.

Do you— can you explain it? Yeah, so like Um, how about let's talk about what ways are they similar? In what way is human magic similar to Harry Potter magic?

Well, one, um, there can be similar. So, um, one, Harry Potter uses wands and some of the magicians uses wands too.

How about differences? What's the difference between Harry Potter magic human magic?

When we have a— humans have a different, a little different kind of magic because like it can do a little different stuff because every world can do a little different stuff.

So you, you think about it as different worlds can do different stuff? So our world can do some kinds of things? Yep. Um, so here she's 6, uh, you know, getting older. Um, we're leaping ahead a little bit. And one of the things that I often advise, in addition to the concepts, you know, what is a bird and so forth— in this case it's what is magic— but also using, juxtaposing very different examples. I expect, often I ask questions where I expect that she will be able to recognize a difference, and yet it's not necessarily easy to explain why there's a difference. And so I thought, you know, she loves Harry Potter and loves the magic in Harry Potter. If she also loves magic shows, I thought, let's see if she can explain the difference between Harry Potter magic and magic shows. And, um, you know, over time, as the conversation evolves, she becomes very articulate about these differences. And again, I ask her to explain and I want her to explain and she knows that I care about her explanations. And so it's not threatening. Again, I can't emphasize enough how important it is to keep these warm and light and fun and enjoyable. And part of the way that I get young people to focus for longer and longer and longer periods of time is by making it warm, fun, and enjoyable. So we can— she and I can keep going at the age of 6 for you know, 20, 30 minutes easily, probably longer.

We were trying to figure out how to estimate the number of hairs on Logan's head. Oh yeah. Now you remember it?

Yeah. I did not do that. I, like, I don't know why, but like—

That's totally fine. So do you want to keep thinking about that, or do you want to think about something else? We can keep thinking about that. Okay, so one of the things— well, let me give you what I remember we got to and see if it sounds familiar. Okay, so one of the problems is he's got so many hairs on his head, um, if you just counted them one by one, you'd probably get lost in terms of—

oh yeah, I'd probably get lost because I would like probably count them again and like—

exactly. So you had an idea for how to how to not to get lost. Do you remember that?

I have. Yeah, I remember my idea.

What was your idea?

So, so I would like put either a braid or a ponytail on each of 10 hairs on his head. That's exactly right. I don't count them again, and however many tens there are is our answer, because like if there is 2 tens, I mean like actually 10 tens, that would be 100 hairs.

So I could imagine some people thinking, oh, it's kind of cute that, you know, you play these little logic games with children. But one of the things I see logic as foundational really to math and science and much more besides that. So one of the things I start to do is intersperse math and in this case an estimation game. And, you know, a problem estimation is something that's often covered in middle and high school, and many students are not terribly good at it. But I always like to get people thinking about maybe accessible problems. So I asked her, could she estimate the number of hairs on her little brother's head? And as you can see, One of the problems is, initially she said she would just count them. And I said, "How do you— there's so many. How do you count them without getting lost?" And she came up with this answer. She'd do 10 sets, 10 hairs and braid, 10 hairs and braid, 10 hairs and braid. I think it's a fabulous answer. But we're at a point now, she and I, where she can have fun doing math problems, logic problems, you know, little science problems and things. And she's using her reasoning to come to conclusions. So I just want to make the point that gradually these word games, logic games, loving your mind can lead to, as it were, curricular content, or preparing the seeds for giving a child an immense advantage in later curricular content. Kids should be rolled around in strollers?

Yeah, I know that.

So do you think that's a good idea that he's right, or do you think he should sometimes, um, let— you know, he should have put you in strollers or Logan in strollers?

I think actually that's kind of a good idea because like kids need their, um, exercise sometimes even when it's hard.

So you think it's a good idea that he makes you walk?

Yeah. Does Logan complain about it? No.

So I just wanted to insert that because another, I would say, very distinctive aspect of Lana's child rearing is that her father also is very aligned in terms of stretching her. He has her listen to podcasts with him and so forth, so she gets immersed in a verbally rich environment. He certainly engages her in Socratic dialogue. And he also has a no-strollers philosophy where he thinks that kids should become strong and learn to walk. Certainly they did in traditional or indigenous societies where we had no strollers, probably walked way more than kids do today. And one of the things I think is really charming about Alana is how firmly she's bought into this. And I do think it helps her to be extraordinarily resilient. I should also mention jiu-jitsu. She's been a jiu-jitsu student for some years, and it also gives her, I think, incredible courage, fortitude, and resilience. So I have immense respect for her, and the mind is part of that, but I wanted to give this broader ecosystem some of the credit. Movie, say a Harry Potter movie is something like 2 hours. Would you say it takes longer than 2 hours to to read the book?

For me, it takes a few days.

Okay. What if we like the books better because it's a longer experience? Do you think that might be it?

Yeah. Yeah.

Why would we like the longer experience?

To me, I just kind of like— because sometimes I really like the book, so I kind of want a longer experience because I really like that book and I want to stay on it.

Okay, so another way I describe it is sometimes when I'm in a book that I really love, I feel like I'm almost kind of lost in that world, or I kind of go into a different place when I'm reading the book, and I like being in that place. Does that sound accurate?

Yeah.

And would you say that you go in a deeper place when you're reading than when you're watching? Or sometimes, or not necessarily?

For me, it's kind of deeper when I read. For me, just because I can just sit there, open my book, read, flip the pages, and just focus my mind on imagining what's happening. And maybe I could put me in there too in some parts.

I got it. You know, and that's actually one of the reasons— remember when I was asking about the emotions? Whether you felt the emotions more in the book versus the movie. I think for me personally, I think usually I feel the emotions more intensely when I read than when I watch. And maybe it's because it's slower or I get to know the characters. I guess I feel like I get to know the characters more when I read. Does that make sense? Yeah. And if I get to know the characters, you said you kind of imagine yourself in there. You know, I, it seems like you're right, the, if they're happy in the book, they're happy in the movie. If they're sad in the book, they're sad in the movie, but there's this kind of longer, slower, deeper experience of going into the character in the book most of the time.

Does that seem accurate? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Do you think we're doing a pretty good job at figuring out why we like the books better than the movies usually? Yeah. Okay. Seems like you really love reading. Is that true? Yeah. What, what's, what book are you reading these days?

Um, I'm reading Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets right now.

Excellent, excellent. I would say reading, especially when I was a kid, but even now, reading is one of my greatest joys. It's a really— would you say it's one of your greatest joys?

Yeah, other than jiu-jitsu. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jujutsu Kaisen too. So there she is, almost 8, kind of 7 and 3/4. And one of the things that I really enjoy about this kind of an interaction is I feel as if she and I are sharing our joy of reading, almost as if, you know, it was with an adult exploring why books are richer than movies and I love the light of recognition in her eye and the enthusiasm. And it's a shared— we have a shared, I would say, intellectual experience. She and I are in a place where she's 8 and obviously I'm much older, but we can share intellectual experiences and appreciate our shared love of the deeper, richer, longer, more emotional experience of reading books.

Read it, but you have read it in the past, so if I read it, it'll be kind of familiar, right? Yep. Okay, so I'll read it slowly and then we can talk about it. Okay. So thought, unlike speech, does not consist of separate units. When I wish to communicate the thought that today I saw a barefoot boy in a blue shirt running down the street, I do not see every item separately: the boy, the shirt, its blue color, his running, the absence of shoes. I conceive of all of this in one thought, but I put it into separate words. A speaker often takes several minutes to disclose one thought. In his mind, the whole thought is present at once, but in speech it has to be developed successively. A thought may be compared to a cloud shedding a shower of words. Okay, so does that make any sense at all or no sense at all?

It makes pretty much sense to me.

Okay, can you explain what it means to you?

For me, it just means like, like he's expressing what— for me, it just, it's just like he's expressing what he saw and what he felt, what that boy was running and what he's like.

Okay, do you think thoughts are the same as words, or is there some kind of difference between a thought and a word?

For me, a thought is like saying it in your brain, like wondering, and a word is like saying it out loud, like this. I see.

And do you think that, um, so suppose you're at the beach, um, do you see anybody running, by the way?

Um, I don't see really anybody running. I just see them walking to the water, but my brother's running right now.

Okay, and when your brother's running right now, let's see, when you said that, you said, "My brother is running right now." 6 words, right? Mm-hmm. When you saw your brother running, was that the same as the 6 words? Was it faster than 6 words or slower than 6 words? What's the difference between the words you used and what you— the experience of seeing your brother running?

Like in what way experiencing the experience of my brother running?

So you saw him running and when you saw him running, did your brain like instantly know, oh, that's my brother running without the words? Or do you have to have the words in order to understand what's going on in your brain?

I think my brain just instantly knew he was running because I saw him running. And yeah.

So is it fair to say that, um, at least with things you see, your brain is just like instant, like boom, got it? Yeah. And is it fair to say that words take a little bit longer?

Yeah, like I see a, a boy in blue shorts running. That would take longer to say in your brain. I, I see a blue I see a boy with blue shorts running.

Okay, so I'm going to go to one of the later sentences in Vygotsky's paragraph when he says a speaker, and that could be you or I or anybody, anybody who's speaking, any human being speaking. So a speaker often takes several minutes to disclose one thought. In his mind, the whole thought is present at once, but in speech it has to be developed successively. Does it make sense when he says, in your mind, your whole thought is present at once?

Uh-huh.

Um, but when you use words, they have to be— it has to be developed successively, kind of bit by bit. Yep. So then the final sentence is, a thought may be compared to a cloud shedding a shower of words. What do you think that means?

Like a thought is maybe like, like he's expressing what he thinks, like the thought is kind of like cloud showering words into your brain or out your mouth.

Does that seem like an accurate metaphor to you or an accurate analogy? So when you see something like your brother running, it's instant. How about I'm trying to think of a different kind of idea. How about you had the idea that you want to go to the beach. Is that instant like seeing your brother running? Yeah, like, "I'm gonna go to the beach tomorrow." Okay, would you say the thought is more instant than the words it takes to talk about it?

Yeah.

So So yeah, for you, but do you think for most people? Do you think some people— do you think some people only think in words, or do you think for most people they have thoughts and then it's a different step to put those thoughts into words? Excuse me? So for you, you have thoughts that are instant, whether it's going to the beach or seeing your brother run. The thought is instant, but Putting it into words takes a little tiny bit longer, correct?

Yeah, like saying it, like saying it out loud, like, I see a boy wearing blue shirts running, and then in my mind it would just be, I see a boy, like instantly saying those words in my brain really fast.

Exactly. And do you think that most human beings are like you? Maybe. In that respect? Okay. I don't know. Yeah, no, it's hard to know, but I would say that it certainly is the case for me, that's my experience as well. And if Vygotsky wrote this, I think it was probably his experience as well. And so it's an interest, I think it's interesting to wonder if all people kind of certain things they think instantly, but words take longer. Does that seem likely? Uh-huh. Okay, do you think it's interesting to think about the difference between your thoughts and your words?

Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting.

Okay, anything else you want to say about it before taking a day at the beach?

Um, not that I can think of. Okay, go ahead. But I think that the person who made it He must be really good at making poems.

Oh, tell me more, tell me more.

Like, I just think that his personality in like writing poems is great because if he could write that poem, I think like he's just a— I just love that poem. So I forget the name, but whoever made that, I think has— I think It's pretty awesome. A wonderful—

Vygotsky is his name. So I just— I don't know if this is your favorite part, but for me, my favorite part— well, do you want to say what your favorite part of the poem is?

For me, when he's— I have two favorite parts. When he said about that boy running in the blue shirt, and when he said a thought is like a cloud of of like showering words.

I agree, I agree with both of those. In some ways I think, yeah, they're both really, really good. I like the cloud showering words, that's like my favorite, favorite part, but the boy running in blue shirt, that's pretty important too. So I agree, those are both kind of cool. And can you say why you think they're so cool?

Just like the definition of him saying that he saw something running, I just think it's pretty cool because maybe there actually was a boy running down with a pair of blue shirt. Mm-hmm.

Well, and I love the fact that you see it— whoops, sorry, an airplane. No, that's a car. It's a loud car. I love the thought that you see this as really great poetry. I love the fact that you called that out, because especially I remember I read this many years ago, but I always remember both the boy in the blue shirt as well as the cloud shutting a shower of words. I think one mark of really great poetry for me is when you remember it for a long time. Does that make sense? Yeah, because it's just a powerful image, and it's a powerful visual image, you know. It's the sort of thing that I can just instantly picture a shower of words coming down even though it doesn't really exist. You know what I mean? All right, well, thank you.

So that was actually Alana when she was only 7, but I like that piece in particular. Again, I think many people— Vygotsky, famous 20th century educational theorist who emphasized, by the way, the social aspect of learning, and I think that when we are in relationship with another human being, we both want to learn and we— our neurons grow and build. We're trying to understand each other. But in a certain sense, that Vygotsky passage was insanely complicated for a 7-year-old. Does she understand all of it? I don't know. Is she focused and interested throughout the conversation? Absolutely. When I'm asking these questions and I'm doing most of the explaining and she's saying yes, I had really been wondering if maybe I would— had kind of gone too far this time and given her too much challenge. And I was ready to wind down. Here she is a day at the beach having fun, and she's talking to me about Vygotsky before going to play. I was ready to wind down and let her go play, and then she had this one more thing to say. And that one more thing to say was that she was struck, and this is one of the things I love, love, love, love, love about this, is that it was pure Alana initiating it. It was not me leading her into anywhere. But she wanted to stop and remark on the poetry of those last lines. And in particular, again, I think Vygotsky's image of words, thoughts becoming a shower of words is an incredibly powerful metaphor. And for Alana independently to have called that out shows me that she really is connected to this. She really does have a conception of thought as different from language. She really is thinking about it. Earlier I talked about metacognition and, you know, when Alana is 4, I'm talking to her about thinking. And you know, what is thinking? Thinking is what makes us smart. And, you know, she'd said then that, you know, objects don't think, but, uh, you know, mosquitoes think, but maybe trees don't. Here, at the age of 7, she is remarkably sophisticated about internal thought processes. And I believe that she has become so sophisticated because Her mind has had the experience of being loved by means of attention, and attention to how she thinks, how she reasons, what's going on inside that. And it's not rewarding her for having memorized an answer or coming up with something that I judge to be correct. She has a relationship where she knows I do care about what's going on inside of her head, and so she can sit on a beach and talk to me for hours. One of the— I hope this has been helpful. One of the reasons I like to start when she's 4 is very often people see the results of kids I've worked with and they think, well, of course it works with those kids. They don't realize that when I start, they're whatever age, they're much less well developed. I've seen hundreds and hundreds, perhaps thousands of kids over time develop by means of consistent extended engagement in intellectual dialogue. And again, because the connotations of intellectual are so heavy, by intellectual all I mean is the world of ideas, caring about the ideas in another human's head. And part of that is also sharing my ideas and taking it seriously, taking them seriously as an interlocutor. So again, I'm very passionate about this. If anybody wants to work with me on this in any capacity, let me know. One more comment just on focus. I think what's also remarkable about Ilana at this point is she's capable of focusing on one conversation that's very abstract and intellectual for easily 10 minutes. Again, we could have gone 20 minutes. She could go— I don't know. I haven't pushed her to see how long she could go. But she's ready to have long extended conversations about intellectual content. Um, you know, the issue of focus is really important, I would say, in a Montessori classroom. I think one of the brilliant things about the independent work period in Montessori is children learn to focus. I think in a world of distraction, when, um, you know, games and videos and the world out there is all about stimulus, our electronic addictions are taking us over. I think especially in a world of electronic addictions, dopamine hits, where we adults are often addicted to, you know, notifications from social media, and some people are addicted to video games and rewards and all of that. I think it's more important than perhaps ever before in history to help people of all ages develop the ability to focus and to focus on things that stimulate and develop their minds. So I am a great believer in many different kinds of education, but I think the benefits of having intellectual conversations with young children has been vastly underrated, and really intellectual conversations with children throughout. So again, I'm Michael Strong, author of The Habit of Thought, founder of expanseonline.co, and you may follow my Ilana videos on YouTube, uh, by looking up Socratic Michael Strong. And please share with the world your love of the minds of children by engaging them in conversations about their ideas. Thank you.