Loving your child's mind: How can we tell if animals are intelligent?

Okay, so one of the things I wanted to think about was how can we tell if an animal is intelligent or not? Can we tell if an animal is intelligent or not?

Um, maybe in a way.

Okay, how would you tell if an animal is intelligent?

Um, maybe you could tell if it uses everything that it has. For example, some animals use tools like we do.

So using tools might be an indication. Any other ideas on whether you can tell if an animal is intelligent or not? Do you guys agree with Alana's hypothesis that if an animal uses tools that might be a sign of intelligence. So Sankara, you disagree? Go ahead. What are you thinking, Sankara?

Um, the intelligent, um, form of life have to work together and that has to make, um, some structural or— yeah. All have to have a, a home and is not like a, um, move to place from place to place. They have to live in one place for a long time, then move.

Okay, so I'm not sure I understood everything, but let me see if I can summarize what you said. Uh, intelligence means people or animals would have to work together. That's one, right? Is that one of your things? Yeah, they also have to have a home. Is that your other thing?

Yes.

Did you have a third one?

Um, they have to— like, they, they shouldn't be moving around and looking for food as much as, as like, um As birds, they have to migrate in very— yeah.

So I'm trying to understand exactly your point here. You're saying they shouldn't have to move around, or they shouldn't have to migrate for food? Is that what you're saying?

Mm-hmm.

OK. So Alana is saying using tools is a sign of animal intelligence. And Sankara is saying— I'm trying to figure out how to find my hands. So using tools, that's Alana. And then Sankara says, work together, don't move around too much, and have a home. Did I get it correctly? In which case, Marwa, what do you think? What do you think is a sign of animal intelligence? Can we tell if animals are intelligent? And if so, how?

Good mannered.

So good mannered. Okay, so good mannered animals are intelligent, listening, listening, listening.

Okay, and, um, one more.

Yeah, I think that's all.

A good manner and listening. Okay, well, let's, let's try some examples and see what we think. So do you guys think that chickens are intelligent? Uh, no. Well, Anas kind of no. What do you think, Sankar? Do you think chickens are intelligent?

Um, it depends. It depends on, on, on what type of intelligence you're looking at.

Okay, so tell us about what— in what way are chickens intelligent? Alana, go ahead.

Well, some of the chickens or hens or roosters on, um, on Hawai i, they always figure out where the most food is because people always feed them.

So they figure out where food is. Um, do you agree, Sankara? Is that a sign of chicken intelligence?

Yeah.

Did you have another one?

Um, no. I mean, like, they easily adapt to environments too.

Adapt to their environments?

Yeah, because of their small size.

Okay. Marwa, what do you think? Do you think chickens are intelligent or not?

Nope.

Why not? Tell us why the no.

Because once a chicken, when it was being released, chased a person all around the compound trying to peck them.

Oh, I see. Um, chicken—

and I saw that with my bare eyes.

I see. So chickens fail on the good manners point? Is that your Is that what you're saying? Okay.

Yes.

So let's compare. So Alana and Sankaras think that chickens are intelligent in a way. Marwa is saying no. Let's compare chickens to dogs. Do we think that chickens are more intelligent than dogs or less intelligent? You want to go, Sankaras?

Less intelligent.

Okay, Marwa is clear, less intelligent. Go, Sankara, what were you going to say?

Um, chickens, chickens are as dumb as ants to us compared to dogs.

As dumb as ants are to us compared to dogs. Okay. And Lana, what were you going to say on chicken intelligence compared to dogs?

Um, I think chickens are a lot, or just less intelligent than dogs.

Okay. So it's interesting that even Sankara and Alana, who made a case for chicken intelligence, are saying chickens are less intelligent than dogs. So how— what makes you guys think that chickens are less intelligent than dogs? Go, Sankara.

First of all, sorry for putting my hand up. And I think the reason that chickens are more intelligent— I mean, are less intelligent than dogs is because wolves are really intelligent, and dogs evolved from wolves, and wolves and chickens evolved from— actually, it might be the other way around because chickens evolved from our form of bird, which evolved which are similar to dinosaurs, which were clever.

So one of the things I'm wondering about is early on Alana said tools. How do we know animals are intelligent? They use tools. Sankara said they work together and they, um, they don't move around too much for their food and they have a home. Um, and Marwa said they have good manners and, um, What was the other thing you said, Marwa, in addition to good manners?

They listen.

They listen. So based on those, each of you have your own set of criteria for what counts as animal intelligence. Um, maybe we'll start with Lana. Do dogs beat chickens on your tool use criteria— criterion?

Um, I think it does at least a little bit because I've seen Some dogs try and use either other things or just things that they have to open things. Like for example, there's this dog toy that you put food in it and then there's this little hole. The dog tries to shake it and then the food comes out. That's maybe one way.

Oh, okay. So you would say, and that's an example of a dog kind of using a tool, or would you say that's definitely a tool?

Kind of using a tool or using what he or she has.

And you don't think the chickens could do that?

They might be able to do it. I've just never seen them do it.

Okay, so it sounds like according to your criterion, you think dogs are smarter, but it's not, not for sure. Is that accurate? Yeah. Okay, Sankara, how about you? According to your criterion— criteria, because you have three of them— are dogs more intelligent than chickens? Um, Like working together, do you think dogs work together better than chickens work together?

Actually, I've changed my mind about all my stuff because there can't be a species that's more intelligent than each other. A species can only be an intelligent species if it's wise, which nature is, and humans are very dumb because they're just ruining the whole planet. So yeah.

So wait, are you saying that no— all intelligent— all animals are equal intelligent? No animals are more intelligent than any other?

Yeah, besides humans is basically the runt of the pack because basically they're destroying everything and they think that nature can't survive.

Okay, so I'm hearing your piece about the humans, but I guess your bigger point about all animals are equal and equally intelligent, you're saying that A mosquito is as smart as a dog. A worm is as smart as a dog. A fish is as smart as a dog.

Yeah, in their own way. In their own way.

Okay. Okay. So Sven Kara has introduced something new and radical. Before we kind of discuss that in general, Marwa, how about for you? Do you think that dogs, based on your criteria, the politeness and listening, do you think dogs are more intelligent than chickens or chickens are more intelligent than dogs?

Dogs.

Because dogs listen better and work and, uh, are more polite. Okay, well, given that Alana and Marwa are both saying dogs are more intelligent than chickens, now Sankara is saying no intelligent animal is more intelligent than any other. They all have their own unique kind of intelligence. What do you guys think of that, Alana and Marwa, or all animals? Are worms and dogs equally intelligent? Are, you know, mosquitoes and dogs equally intelligent?

I think that's— or I don't really think that because if you go— I've seen much animals be more smarter than other animals, and I've also seen them just online or in videos, like for example maybe the orangutan. And just, this is just according to my feel, but they use lots of tools if they have them. And like you said, comparing dogs to worms, I don't think that's very, very much the same.

Okay. Um, and so very specifically on your tool comparison, you would say orangutans use tools more than worms. Therefore, by your criterion, orangutans are smarter than worms.

Yes.

Okay, um, Sankara is waiting. Do you want to answer, Marwa, before we give Sankara a turn about why— do you still think that— do you think all animals are equally intelligent, or are you not persuaded by Sankara? Can you say why you're not persuaded by Sankara?

It's because, like, if a worm was smarter than a dog That won't be possible because dogs are obedient animals. Like, a long time ago, they used dogs for hunting. Instead of cars, they used the dogs for slaves and other things that dogs would do. They are very obedient animals.

So now you're saying obedience is a sign of intelligence? Okay, go, Sankara. How do you respond to Alana and Marwa?

I shouldn't have said the clever, I should have said the wiser, which is better than being clever. So yeah, that's all.

Okay, so intelligent, you're— I, I use the word intelligent. Now you're differentiating between wisdom and clever. And so Sankara, would you say, leaving wisdom aside, would you say that dogs are more clever than chickens or worms, or not?

They are.

Okay, so it sounds like everybody now agrees. Well, I want to check with Lana and Marwa. So Sankara has moved from the word intelligent to clever. Um, do you guys agree that, uh, dogs are more clever than chickens or worms?

I do.

What do you think, Marwa?

No.

Dogs are not more clever than chickens or dogs?

I think dogs You think what? Chickens are smarter than dogs. Dogs are smarter than chickens.

Okay, well, I'm sorry, Sankara, now you're using the word smarter. Sankara wants to say more clever. Um, are you happy with that one too? Dogs are more clever than chickens? Okay, well, how about wisdom? So Sankara started off by complaining or I would say saying that humans are not wise. If I understand you correctly, Sankara, you're saying because humans are causing problems, therefore humans are not wise, therefore humans are not more intelligent than other animals. Did I understand you correctly?

Yes, and because humans have had a lack of experience, they've only been around for modern humans, but the human in general as a species has been around for only about 400,000, a couple million years. And I know that sounds big, except compared to other animals like fruit flies, they outlived the dinosaurs. So They've been living for tens, tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of years. That's why we have a lack of intelligence.

Okay, so Alana, what do you think of Sankara's argument that, um, humans are— sometimes he says not wise and sometimes he says not intelligent. What do you make of Sankara's argument humans are neither wise nor intelligent?

Um, oh, I think just from the— or I do believe— I do—

I am—

or I do believe that just for the lack of experience and just causing problems like Sankara, maybe we aren't that intelligent. But just from the discoveries that we've made, maybe we are at least a little bit more intelligent, smart, or clever than most animals.

Do you want to respond to that, Sankara?

Because of how long animals have been here, what we found, they most likely either saw it living or they most likely either knew that it was there long before we did.

Did you understand what he said, Alana?

Um, not fully, but I did a little bit.

I, I didn't understand it. Could you repeat, Sankara? I didn't quite get what you said.

Um, what humans found, um, yeah, like fossilized dinosaurs and stuff like that, nature is like, he knew it was there long before we found it and saw it living way before we humans even existed.

So what I'm getting, Alana, is that you suggested humans are intelligent because humans made discoveries. A lot— um, Sankara seems to be focusing on the discovery of dinosaurs, which, you know, obviously were here before humans. Um, go ahead, Sankara, what were you gonna say?

I'm not focusing on them. I'm focusing like the microbes you found, like the ancient microbes, they're like the, the, and nature most likely actually clawed and killed loads of animals. So even though we found it, it doesn't mean we were the first to actually find it.

No, I got that. But I guess my question for Alana was, when you said humans make discoveries, were you thinking of things like discovering dinosaurs, or were you thinking of other kinds of discoveries?

Um, I wasn't specifically thinking about that. I was more thinking about all the technologies that we've made. Compared to what other animals maybe have made.

Actually, that was— I suspected that's what you were thinking. Um, while Sankara is thinking, Marawa, what do you think? Are you being persuaded by Sankara that humans are neither wise nor intelligent, or what do you think of Alana's argument that because of technological discoveries, humans in fact are intelligent?

I don't really know. Keep going.

Yeah, Marwa, we lost you. What were you saying? You don't really know? Is that what you said? Okay, no problem. Um, well, I think this is really fascinating. Um, Go ahead, Sankara.

Before we go, I'm just gonna say one thing. It's about David Attenborough. He said for speaking to be intelligent, it has to be fast, fastly wise. Like in all the movies I watch, like Star Trek, they're not destroying rather than cutting down all the trees, they're actually planting more and living on other planets because they became wise. They And then they could do all the other stuff that took more, more than wisdom and— yeah, more than intelligence.

Go Marwa!

Could I tell you a fact about dinosaurs or even animals?

Can you ask again, Marwa? What are you asking?

Could I tell you a fact about animals?

Can you tell your fact? I'm not quite understanding.

Could I tell you a fact about animals?

You tell us the fact of animals. Go ahead.

Animals started living 76,000 years ago.

Okay. Um, I want— because I—

and the first dog was ever— the first dog that was ever created— yes, pardon me.

Um, go ahead and finish the thought, and I want to debrief.

And the first dog was in Egypt in 1772.

Okay. Um, I want to pause and wind this up and debrief for now, but I like to check at the end. So I want to ask, do we— do we understand anything more about whether or not animals are intelligent? So Alana, do you think that you have any clear understanding about whether animals are intelligent or not?

Sorry, did you say me?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, not really, other than maybe that some animals communicate with each other, or yeah, I really don't know anything besides that.

Do you think that this question is too hard for you guys, or that, um, we got stuck, or that no one knows? Why do you think that we didn't make much progress on this? You frozen, Alana? Is she frozen for you guys?

Because we all have different opinions on this question.

Ah, so are you saying if we have different opinions, then it's impossible to make progress? Is she frozen for you guys? Am I frozen for you guys? I think I'm— Alana, you're back. You're frozen for a minute. I was asking if we all have different opinions, then is it impossible to make progress?

Sorry, can you say that again?

If we all have different opinions, is it impossible to make progress?

Um, no, I don't think it's impossible, but we just have to agree on one.

I see. Um, Sankara, do you think we made any progress on understanding whether animals are intelligent or which animals are intelligent or not?

Yeah, I agree with Alana because, um, it was very slow because you were, uh, you were arguing though. I mean, we want to agree on We are agreeing on very little things.

Okay. I mean, Marwa, how about you? Do you think we made any progress on figuring out which animals are more intelligent? Marwa, can you guys hear him?

Not really.

Why do you think we did not make progress?

Not really.

And why do you think we did not?

Not really.

But why? Why? Tell me why you don't think we did.

Because I still don't understand if animals are smarter than humans.

Okay, um, and I think this is a really good question, so I propose that you guys think about it. If you want, you can research and study it. Either research and study it or ask people or just think about it. And I think this is a question that we can make progress on, but maybe I'm wrong. Does that sound okay? All right, in which case, thank you guys for thinking with me, and I will see you next week. Have a wonderful week. Bye.