Loving your child's mind: Sankara struggles with Vygotsky
A facilitator guides a child named Sankara through a difficult Vygotsky passage about why direct mind-to-mind communication is impossible. Using questions, analogies, and careful parsing, they work through what thoughts, meanings, and words actually are, and why the gap between them matters.
Chapters
Direct communication between minds is impossible, not only physically but psychologically. But psychologically, communication can be achieved only in a roundabout way. It must pass first through meanings, meanings then through words.
Great, thank you. So I always like to check, first of all, was that easy to read or a little bit difficult?
Um, a little bit difficult.
I thought so. It's college-level reading, so since you're probably not yet in college, it's probably more difficult than what you usually read. Is that accurate?
Yeah.
Okay, so I also like to think of between a perf— suppose we said 100% understanding is you understand every word every phrase, every sentence, everything. 0% understanding is you're not even sure what language it's in. Maybe it's in Polish or Swahili or Mandarin. You have no idea. So I expect since you know it's in English, you're above 0% understanding, but you're probably not at 100% understanding. So what percent would you say you understand that right now?
Um, 50. 10%. Yes.
Okay, terrific. Well, one way I often like to work, work through difficult material— this is even as a grown-up— is I read it very slowly, piece by piece. So let's start with the first phrase: direct communication between minds is impossible. What do you think that means?
Um, you can't read each other's minds.
Okay, that's a good hypothesis. I often, when I'm reading something difficult, I like to kind of think of a hypothesis. So we can't read each other's minds. That's your hypothesis. The next clause is 'not only physically but psychologically.' Do we have any idea what, um, what he means by that?
No.
Okay, fair enough. Sometimes if you're not sure, I also like to fill figure out what I can figure out and then leave for later the things I'm not sure of. So let's just acknowledge we're not sure about that clause and maybe we can come back to it. Let's try the next sentence. Communication can be achieved only in a roundabout way. What do you think that means?
Um, it has to be a two-way conversation.
Okay. You want to say why you think that means it has to be a two-way conversation?
Um, I don't know.
Okay, no problem. Again, it's great to have hypotheses when we're uncertain. We, we, again, you know what a hypothesis is, right?
Yeah.
Okay, um, and usually we talk about hypotheses in science, but also I think we have hypotheses when we're reading. So then we've got the last sentence. Thought must pass first through meanings and then through words. What do you think that means?
Um, I don't know.
Okay, um, you know what thought is, right? So thought must pass first through meanings. What are meanings?
Um, Like understanding.
Okay. And then through words, would you say words and meanings are identical or there's a distinction? Can we think of a distinction between words and meanings?
Um, um. I didn't understand.
No problem, no problem at all. Um, so let— maybe let's have an example. Um, well, thought, T-H-O-U-G-H-T, the word thought is a word, correct?
Yeah.
Would you say the word T-H-O-U-G-H-T is the same as what it means?
Um, yeah.
So those, um, 7 letters— and what is the thought?
It's something I think.
Okay, so those 7 letters are the same thing that happens to be going on inside your head?
Yeah.
Okay, so if I say A dog? A dog is going inside your head?
Um, no.
Okay, so what's— so a dog is a thing in the world, right?
Yeah.
Is the word D-O-G the same as the dog?
Um, no.
Okay, when you think of a dog, is that the same as either the dog and the word or the letters D-O-G?
No.
Okay, so maybe what if we were to say that, um, we can try with other things, but with the dog, there's that thing out there that wags its tail and so forth, the dog. There's the word or the three letters D-O-G, and then inside your mind you have some either sense of a dog or memory of a dog or picture of a dog or something like that. Does that sound right?
Yeah.
Um, so let's, let's try that last sentence again. Thought must pass first through meanings and then through words. Do you have any better idea of what it might mean?
No.
Okay. Um, So if we say dog, dog is a word, right?
Yeah.
Is the image of a dog in your head the same as that word?
Um, no.
So could we say the— is the image in your head a meaning or an understanding, or what's the image in your head when we say dog? What is it? You say it's a meaning or something else?
Something else.
Okay, so is meaning— is the word meaning, does that refer to the thing in your head or to the letters on a page or something else?
Um, something else.
Can you say what it is? What is meaning?
Understanding.
Okay, and is that— is understanding either the word on the page or the thing out there or the picture in your head?
That's the picture in my head.
Okay, if that's the case, thought must pass first through meanings and then through words. Let's reread it as understanding. Thought must pass first through understanding and then through words. What is that? Does that make any sense?
No.
Okay, this is really hard. Again, it's college level. Sometimes it's useful to get the whole chunk all at once, so I'll read it, um, the whole chunk and see if we can understand it. Direct communication between minds is impossible, not only physically but psychologically. Communication can be achieved only in a roundabout way. Thought must pass first through meanings and then through words. Does the whole thing make any sense or not at all?
It doesn't make any sense.
Okay, well, what would you— do you think that you just have to wait till you go to college to make sense of this kind of stuff, or what strategy would you use to try to figure it out? I suppose it's a puzzle. How can you figure out puzzles?
Do I have to go to college?
You don't have to go to college, but it's useful to be able to read difficult material. Would you agree?
Yeah.
Okay. Is this too difficult for you right now?
Um, no.
So what— what if this was a puzzle? And think of it as a puzzle. This is a puzzle. Do you like to solve puzzles?
Yeah, it's cool.
Okay, so if we think of this as a puzzle, how would you go about solving this puzzle?
Um, I don't understand.
So with a puzzle, like a puzzle pieces, like a puzzle, a jigsaw puzzle, when you look at a little piece, you can't— sometimes you don't even know where it goes. Sometimes you do, but sometimes you don't. Is that fair enough?
Yeah.
So here we've got— you can think of each word and each sentence as like a puzzle piece. And, you know, some of the words— I think you know the word, you know the word 'word', you know the word 'thought'. Would you say you know at least half of the words in this paragraph?
Yeah.
Okay, um, so if we know half the words but you don't know the other half, is there a way to solve a puzzle like that?
Um, yeah.
How?
Go into the dictionary and find out the word.
Perfect, perfect. That's great. I could also help you. Are there specific words you'd like to ask the meaning of? No?
Yes, personification.
Personification?
Mm-hmm.
I don't see that. I'm happy to tell you what that means, but is that word in that paragraph? I don't see it. No?
I don't know what that means.
So personification is to personify something, means to make something into a person. So say if there was a a dog you liked, we could make it into a person. If there was even a table or a car you liked, we could make it into a person. So personify is to make something like a person. Does that make sense?
Yeah.
But that seems unrelated to that paragraph— this paragraph. Fair enough?
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, I don't know what psychological Psycho—
psych— yeah, no problem, no problem. Have you ever heard of psychology?
Um, yeah.
What do you think psychology means?
Brain?
Kind of. I would say psychology is the study of the— the study of human beings and how they behave and think. So you know, it's the brain. When I think of studying the brain, I think of like surgery and actually looking at all the brain cells and everything. Psychology is more about how human beings act, and of course I think we believe that the brain is a very large factor in how we act, but not the only factor. Um, does that make sense? As psychology, kind of the study of, of human behavior?
Yeah.
So In which case, does that help you psychologically?
Yeah.
How so?
It tells me what it means.
Okay, so let's go. Uh, direct communication between minds is impossible, not only physically but psychologically. What distinction is being made here between physical and psychological?
Um, I didn't know.
Okay, do you think that it would be easier if, uh, you had Alana here working alongside you, the two of you together figuring it out?
Yeah.
Okay, in which case, because this is difficult and this is the first time I've given you something that's difficult, but I like to challenge your mind. Does it make sense that it's good to challenge your mind?
Yeah.
Okay, how about we, um, take a break because I think you've worked hard enough for now, and bit by bit we will help you to learn how to read really difficult material. What if I said that maybe in a year you could read college-level material? Do you think that's possible?
Yeah.
Okay, how about just high school level material? Would you rather master high school level?
No.
No?
Teaching college and university?
Okay, all right, in which case we will— go ahead, what were you going to say? I can't hear you, say it more.
What's the difference between college and university?
No, great question, great question. To some extent they're different words for the same thing. In general, universities tend to have graduate programs. So college typically refers to the undergraduate program, the first 4 years after high school. And the university also includes graduate programs. So university is kind of a bigger, more comprehensive thing than a college. Does that make sense?
Mm-hmm.
But they're largely the same. It's just university is kind of bigger and has more programs.
I'm coming to Cambridge. There's a Cambridge University, and it's separated in colleges with like King's College and stuff?
No, that's a great question. So historically, each of those were their own community of learners. And over time, then, these different communities of learners all became part of what's known as the university. And universe is kind of the whole thing. And so one way to think of it is colleges are specific things, and then universe or university is the big thing. So all the little colleges together plus their graduate schools is the university. Does that make sense?
Oh, so it's like planets in the universe?
A little, a little bit, or maybe planets in the solar system, but yeah, yeah, like the parts of a whole, for sure, for sure. Okay, so I want to keep these relatively short, so thank you so much for thinking with me, and we will keep you learning to work— read difficult material. Yes, one more question.
So when do you end your Easter break?
When is our Easter break over?
Yeah.
Um, you know, I think it's over for most, most schools now. Is your Easter break just ending?
Yeah.
Okay. All right, I'm gonna take off. Bye-bye.
