Loving your child's mind: Socratic dialogue

Good. How are you? How was your trip?

My trip was excellent, thank you. We went to Greece. Have you ever been to Greece?

No, I haven't.

What do you know about Greece?

Um, I know about some of the mythology. I know about the Trojan War, or some of it, and I know of it, and I know some Greek myths, sorts of things like that.

Excellent. Greece is also the home of philosophy. Do you know what philosophy is?

No, I don't.

Have you ever heard the word philosophy?

I've heard it before.

Um, how about the person Socrates? Have you ever heard of Socrates?

It sounds familiar, but I don't know.

Okay, so, um, Socrates was a person in Athens. Have you heard of Athens?

Yes.

So He was a person in Athens who used to go to the marketplace and have conversations with people. And sometimes he would just ask them questions. He would ask them, what is truth? Or what is justice? Or what is piety? Or what is beauty? And he would get into conversations with people. And that is the foundation of philosophy.

Philosophy, like, like an opinion.

So that's a great question. So if I ask you what truth is, would you say that's just your opinion?

Um, like my opinion on truth?

Yeah.

Um, well, I don't know if it is just my opinion. Because it could be shared with a lot of people that I don't know.

Aha, got it. Do you think that some opinions about truth are better than other opinions on truth?

Um, I mean, they're all opinions, but maybe some make more sense or some are simpler, and I don't know if I could make that better.

So when you say they're all opinions, Are you saying there is no truth about what truth is?

Well, there has to be some truth, like maybe one person got it wrong.

So you're thinking there is something, there's a truth about truth. And when you say one person got it wrong, are you thinking that most people know what's true or know what the truth is and only some people don't?

What is the truth though? Like any truth to a lie?

So this is a good question. So do you think there are any things where it's perfectly clear what's true and what's false?

Cats are not dogs.

Okay, you'd say that's a pretty clear example of something that's true. A cat is not a dog, correct?

Yeah. Yes.

Would you say in that example you know what truth is?

Yes.

So do you think most people— and for now we could just say people who speak English, because of course, um, un gato no es un perro en español— um, so just in English, would you say most everybody knows that a cat is not a dog?

Yes.

In which case, do you think everybody knows that that's the truth?

Um, or everyone with common sense, like maybe a toddler would think, "No, a dog is a cat," or something.

Okay, so there's maybe a baby who either doesn't have common sense or just has not yet learned it or is confused, but at some point, is it fair to say all kind of regular people— and it's funny, you can say common sense or regular something Pretty much everybody knows the truth is that a dog is not a cat, right? Yes. That's one example of a truth where it sounds like you would say there is a truth about the truth. In this case, one example of a truth about the truth is that it's true that a dog is not a cat. Can we think of other examples where it's definitely the truth?

A pencil. Is not made out of metal. I mean, I guess there are mechanical pencils, but just a regular pencil, it's not made out of metal.

Okay.

Or the wood anyways.

That one is a little bit trickier just because, as you note, there are mechanical pencils that are in fact made of metal. Um, and, and in which case a regular pencil for you necessarily means— well, actually, this is interesting. Do you think a regular pencil is necessarily made out of wood, or it could be plastic or rubber or some kind of, you know, other substance?

I think that pencils are made out of many different things. Like you said, there's wood, there's rubber and metal. Actually, no, there is kind of metal to hold the eraser to the pencil. I'm talking about like the thing you write with, like the handle and then the lead.

So do you still like, um, a pencil is not made out of metal as another example of a truth that is definitely a truth?

That's kind of a bad example.

Okay.

A toaster toasts bread.

A toaster toasts bread. Um, do some toasters toast other things?

Yes.

Go ahead.

Muffins, bagels, stuff like that.

Do some toasters not toast bread?

Um, not that I'm aware of. There could be some type of toaster that toasts fries or something.

Okay, but at least as far as you know, it is a truth that a toaster toasts bread?

Yes.

Okay. So you started by saying— when we were— I started by explaining what philosophy was, and I used the example of Socrates asking questions such as, what is truth? And you said, oh, it's just about opinions. And with your first example, are you saying it's only an opinion that a dog is not a cat, or is it a truth that a dog is not a cat?

It is a truth that a dog is not a cat.

Do you think it's a truth that a toaster toasts bread?

As far as I know, yes. But the toaster also toasts things like bread, maybe muffins or bagels.

Okay, so I guess, how would you describe the difference between an opinion and a truth? When is something an opinion versus when is something the truth?

An opinion is maybe something one person thinks, or just a few people in the population. And then a truth is what is actually, like, the actually right, or maybe a true opinion.

True opinion. You know, this is really interesting. Um, actually, Socrates talks about true opinion, so it's interesting that you got to this notion of true opinion. So how do we know if an opinion is a true opinion?

Research or studies.

Okay, so let's take the example of, uh, toasters toast bread. Do you think that in order to determine if that's a true opinion, we have to go out and research whether or not there exist some toasters that do not toast bread?

Yes.

Okay. And then how about in the example of a pencil is made of wood? Do we have to go out and research if there are pencils that are not made of wood?

Oh, we already know that there are mechanical pencils.

Okay, so we know that that's not a true opinion. Do you think research can always tell us if an opinion is a true opinion or not?

Um, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but There probably are some opinions that maybe research couldn't tell what— tell if it's true or not.

How about what does it mean to treat a person well? Do you know what it is to treat somebody else well?

With kindness, respect. And not like hurt them or hurt them physically or emotionally.

And is that an opinion or is that a true opinion or is that truth?

Um, I think that— what's the difference between a true opinion and truth? Is it just the same thing?

We could call it the same thing. For now, let's say it's the same thing. Okay. So is it a true opinion or just an opinion?

Um, I think, or I think it's right now, I think it's just an opinion because maybe from someone who doesn't treat everyone well, and maybe if they were being just a little bit kinder, then maybe they would think that that would be treating well. Because it's not as bad as before.

I see. So going back to your notion that research is what helps us distinguish opinions from true opinions, um, would we have to research to determine if your definition of treating somebody well is a true opinion or not?

Um, I don't think we would have to research because I— or probably most people know at least one person who does that.

Who treats someone else well?

Say that again.

Everybody knows at least one person who treats someone else well?

Oh, I meant poorly, so that, that, that could back up my opinion.

Got it. But you, it sounds like you were hypothesizing that maybe somebody who generally treats people poorly, if they treat them a little bit better, they think think they're treating them well. Was that your hypothesis?

Yes.

When according to Ilana's standard, they're not actually treating them well at all, correct? Would you say that person has a false opinion?

A false opinion?

Uh, they think they're treating people well, but because they treat people so badly, they treat them just a little bit better and they falsely think they're treating them well.

Yes.

If you think that their opinion is a false opinion, then it sounds like you think your opinion is a true opinion always and everywhere. Is that the case?

Um, maybe not always and everywhere. I— maybe there's a place that maybe this probably does— I don't know if this exists, but like maybe there's a place where people would regard that as good.

Okay.

Or treating someone well.

Actually, this is interesting. So, um, you're getting close to middle school, correct?

Yes.

Um, I actually have met middle schoolers who at least told me they like to insult each other.

Insult each other?

Could you imagine such a thing?

Kind of, but like in a playful way or like a bad way?

That's the, that's the question, isn't it? So do you think that sometimes kids kind of like to insult each other?

Um, I think sometimes maybe siblings, or like if you have a really close relationship with like a friend and then you feel comfortable with calling them something and then it won't matter.

So going back to your definition of treating somebody well, it sounds like if you have a really close relationship with somebody, then maybe you can insult them, but because they know you and trust you, they know you're not actually hurting their feelings. Is that accurate?

Yes.

But would you say that if kids are insulting each other and it does hurt feelings, then they're not treating each other well?

Yes.

Okay, so do you think that if there's a class of middle schoolers and they claim that they want to insult each other, how do we know if they intend to be playful and treat each other well, or if they're actually going to start being mean to each other?

Um, well, you could watch them closely as they insult each other and then watch their reactions, that would, that would tell.

In some ways that sounds like a form of research. Does that count as a form of research?

I think so, yes.

Okay, in which case, um, so you said treating each other well. Can you remind me of your definition again?

Um, well, I said being kind and treating them with respect and not hurting them physically or emotionally.

No, that makes sense. And so then if we want to determine if that's a true opinion of what it means to treat other people well, what we need to discover is if people actually want to be hurt emotionally, or, you know, I use the emotionally because that's the insulting thing. And what you're saying is that people who claim to like to insult each other usually mean it in a playing around kind of way. Is that true?

Yes.

Okay, so are you pretty confident? Let's do it on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 means you're absolutely certain and 1 means you have no idea. On a scale of 1 to 10, how certain are you that your definition of treating people well is a true opinion?

Um, well, from— I mean, just because other people might have different opinions and they think theirs is a true opinion. I think mine is maybe like a 7, just because— a 6 or 7, just because there might be other places in the world where they would treat that or treat insulting each other or just being a little bit kinder to them like as okay. I just don't know of that place yet.

So it sounds like it's not that you necessarily doubt your own opinion, about treating people well. It's just that you're willing to acknowledge there's a certain amount of uncertainty, that is, you just don't know the whole world. Is that a pretty good summary?

Yes.

Okay, so I would say we are engaged in a Socratic dialogue where I'm asking you questions about what is true and what does it mean to treat other people well, and you are trying to use your reason to figure out what the truth is, to Does that make sense?

Yes.

Do you know what I mean by, um, I'm asking you to use your reason?

I think so.

How would you describe reason?

Maybe like common sense. I'm using my common sense and reason.

Okay, um, that, that's a good definition. What I would say is I'm asking you to be consistent. That is, um, if you believe that, uh, if you believe one thing, then I'm asking you, do you still believe— um, I'm trying to explain it, I'm not doing a very good job. Do you know what I mean by being consistent?

Like I'm answering questions repeatedly, or—

well, without contradicting yourself. So it's not like you change your definition of truth, or you change— I'm trying to get you to have a definition of truth that you stick by or a definition of treating people well that you stick by. And when I ask you questions, you think of different cases, you know, and there's the case of the dog versus cat, the wooden pencil or not, the, um, toaster— thank you— the toaster and bread or not. And in each case, you, uh, come up with an answer that is consistent, that is, it doesn't contradict itself. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And also as to what is true opinion. So you started out by saying that philosophy was just about opinions, then you said it was about true opinions and/or truth, and then we decided that maybe a true opinion is a different word for truth. Does that sound right?

Yes.

Um, and then now we were figuring out what does it mean to treat other people well And you are consistently saying being kind, not hurting them physically or emotionally. And so when I gave you the example of insulting each other, of some middle school kids wanting to insult each other, you suggested that it can be done— insulting can be done playfully so that it's not actually emotionally hurting each other, correct?

Yes.

So what I would say is you are consistently saying that treating treat people, each other well means not hurting each other emotionally or physically and being kind. Make sense?

Yes.

And the difference, if you were not consistent, you could say, oh, sometimes treating people well means, you know, being really mean to them, and sometimes it means being nice to them. But you are consistently staying, you're holding the same definition over and over again, even when I ask you kind of challenging questions. Make sense?

Yes.

So that is Socratic dialogue, and you are a philosopher because you are thinking through your own ideas about what is true and what is— what it means to treat people well. Make sense?

Yes.

All right. In which case, I'm going to keep these short, but it's great to see you again. I'm actually going to Africa after this. So we'll be off again till August. I'm doing a lot of travel this summer. Do you have any travel this summer?

Well, I think in a week or two we are going to Florida for a competition, PANS, and then we're going to Harry Potter Land for a few days. And then we're thinking of going down to the Keys. I forget what it's called. We're going down that really long bridge. Near Miami.

Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, the Florida Keys are great. And Harry Potter Land sounds very cool. Have you been to Florida before?

I've been once. It was last year for the same tournament.

Yeah, I thought I remembered you going last year for the same tournament. And do you think you'll do well?

I hope so. And I think I'll do great.

OK, great. Well, I will be cheering at you. And we can touch bases again in August after I've had my adventures and you've had your adventures, okay?

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome, thank you. Bye-bye, Alana. Bye.