Metacognition: From Novice to Expert

Good morning, Alana. How are you?

Good. How are you?

I'm well. Are you excited for the new school year?

I am.

Good. What do you look forward to the most?

Um, I mean, to be honest, everything. I love all the classes and the things that I'm doing, so I'm really looking forward to it.

Got it. Well, I'm glad. I don't know what to check in on your book. Any progress on your book?

Yes, progress has been made.

Say more, tell me.

Um, I've gotten closer, or I've kind of started the higher climax, or the, like, the kind of the biggest action point. Yeah, but I'm quite at the top yet.

Excellent. Um, do you know how you're going to resolve the book, or do you discover that as you move forward?

I think I have a faint idea of what I'm gonna do, but it might change, so—

Got it.

We'll see.

And then, um, how about, have you had any time to code, or you, you kind of took a break from coding?

I'm still coding with, um, uh, I use a program called Juni Learning. I've— I'm right now, I'm just, I'm doing problem solving with Python. My teacher is really great. And then during the school year, I'm looking forward to doing more Harvard CS50.

Got it. What kind of projects are you doing with your coding teacher?

So I just started the level that I'm on right now. So it's more introductory and then kind of getting back into it. Right now, I'm creating a really simple— or not simple, or I'm creating a project where you put in a word and it translates it into ASCII. So I'm learning more about that. So we'll see how that goes.

Is it Python? Is the language?

Yes, it is Python.

Would you say you're starting to feel like you're a little bit fluent in Python, or is that an exaggeration?

I think it's a bit of an exaggeration. I think maybe later once I move up, I can say I'm better at it. But right now I don't think so.

Do you have to look up functions? Do you have to learn about new functions? Or I would accept— I imagine there are at least— I didn't just notice I didn't have my video on. Sorry about that. There, you know, I would imagine there are some functions that you know. And other functions you have to learn about? Would you say you're mostly using familiar functions, or are you learning about new functions all the time?

For now, since I am in the beginning of the level, I am using functions that I'm familiar with. But as I progress, I'm hoping that there will be— or I know that there will be unfamiliar things that I'm going to get to work with.

How many lines of code are your projects typically?

Um, I'm— I mean, I don't know. I don't— if there is an average for the projects that I'm on right now, I'm not so sure.

But is it more like 20 or 30 lines of code or 100 to 200 lines of code?

Well, these projects are really small just to like kind of get you used to all the functions and things like that. And I think as I progress, it'll be bigger. So right now, maybe less than 20 or 30.

Okay.

Yeah, less than that.

And then can you envision what you need— once you know what you need to do, can you figure it out in your mind, or is it a lot of trial and error? You have to try stuff and see if it works or not.

Right now in this particular project, I think it's gonna be trial and error just because I've never done something like this before.

Mm-hmm. Do you like the trial and error process when you code?

I do. I, I like it.

Mm-hmm. Can you— do you kind of have a hypothesis, or do you predict, I think if I write this line of code, this is gonna be what happens?

For some, yes. For others, I'm not quite sure what it's gonna do, and I just try it.

Got it. And I would say when we talk about being fluent with coding, I would imagine that with more experience, I expect there are some maybe very simple functions where you, you do know what it's gonna do, right? Are, are there some pieces of code you're like, I know this, don't even have to think about it?

Something like that. Although I'm, I haven't used them so much to the point where I don't have to think about it.

Okay. Yeah, no, that makes sense. A lot of this is experience. I would say I'm fascinated with how we learn things and how we develop expertise. Because there's a whole literature, a whole academic literature, lots of articles and books and so forth on how we go from being a novice to an expert. And, you know, our brains kind of learn to chunk certain bits of information as we go from being a novice to an expert. So for instance, you play a little bit of chess, correct?

I know how to play chess.

I do. So often beginner players, novice players in chess, they're kind of thinking through moves one by one by one, and they have to think through every single move. Um, often, and I assume that's kind of where you are, is you're kind of thinking through every move.

Um, yeah, sort of. I've sort of played enough to where I plan out like maybe 2 or 3 moves in advance, but to be honest, I'm not No, no, that makes sense.

But then, as, as, you know, when you get to be an expert, you can kind of not only see more moves in advance, but you're sort of looking at the whole chessboard and you're kind of thinking about, um, the whole position and everything. And so it's sort of like once you absorb the details— you've heard the expression, um, you know, you can't see the forest for the trees. Do you know what that means? You're muted.

My bad, sorry. I said I don't know it.

Yeah, all it means is that if you're like right in the middle of the forest and all you see are trees, you don't see the forest. So you kind of have to pull back, like, you know, go on a hill to look down on a forest. That is, if you're in the middle of details, you don't see the whole thing. Does that make sense?

It does.

So in chess, if you're at the level where you have to figure out each move very carefully and laboriously, maybe you can't see the kind of overall position and strategy and, you know, how the whole chessboard is evolving, you know, in terms of your position versus your opponent's position. Does it make sense that there's kind of a detail level and then there's a bigger picture strategy level?

Yes, I think so.

And then I think with coding, something similar could happen. That is, if you're at the level where you kind of have to figure out and experiment with every piece of code, it's harder to kind of have big picture strategy. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And I think as you become more experienced— and a lot of this is experience. You know, in chess, you can learn the moves. It's not a big deal to learn the moves of chess. But become good at chess is a really big deal. And likewise, you know, to learn the basic rules of Python is actually not that big a deal. But then to really kind of get to the point where you're thinking big picture strategy about how to solve problems just takes lots more experience and familiarity and so forth and so on. Do you see yourself just beginning to do that a little bit?

I think once, or once I get more experience and once I get better, because I'm not— I'm still acclimating to all of the different functions. So I think I, I'm going to get there soon. But I think right now I'm a bit below that.

No problem. And it takes as long as it takes. Let's go back to writing. You know, when you first learned to write, you probably barely remember learning to write. You know, you have to learn the alphabet and then you have to learn sentences and periods and then paragraphs and so forth. And now since you're writing books, I imagine, you know, you don't have to— you, in a way, you think about each sentence, but it's not like when you were first learning to write. Does that sound accurate?

Yes.

Can you remember learning to write, or you were so little you don't remember it at all?

I don't remember, like, first learning the alphabet and learning how to write with a pen, but I do remember like when I was maybe my first few years of school learning paragraphs and how to do that kind of stuff. Paragraphs, tabbing, and just sentence format. I remember doing that, but not the basic, basic stuff.

But now when you're writing, you're— and this is another example of kind of trees versus forest. I'm sure sometimes you're at the level of sentences, but you're able, it sounds like you're able to think kind of big strategy about your books. That is, you can kind of zoom out and think, what is the climax going to be like? What's the resolution going to be like? Bless you. Is that accurate?

Thank you. I think so.

So you're kind of fluent at the level of sentences and paragraphs. Would you say you're— does it make sense when I use fluent like that?

Um, I think, I think you could use that, but it might not cover it fully because I'm, I'm kind of— or I don't really understand what fluent in writing means because I'm thinking, I mean, fluent in just knowing how to do everything. And for me, I mean, I may not know how to do everything, so I'm not sure.

No, fair enough. And I realize that maybe we should dig into what fluent— how I'm using fluent. So, I think that's a really great, you know, implicitly question. Didn't quite ask a question, but implicitly it did. So, you know, often we talk about fluency in language. You and I are fluent in English. I would not say I'm fluent in Spanish. I can speak a little bit. And then French, I kind of learned the rules of grammar a long time ago, but I really can't speak French at all. So I'm not at all fluent in French. And so the way I think about fluency is when you're learning a new language, initially, again, it's sort of very laborious, hard work, learn new vocabulary, learn new grammar. Whereas you and I, when we're speaking English right now, we don't have to stop and think, where's the noun go? Where's the verb go? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So does fluency in languages make sense?

Yes, it does.

So I think, um, the way I think of fluency is, and I should look it up, but I think it might be related to flow. Like, I think when you become fluent in something, uh, it flows smoothly. And so that's why, you know, with chess, you start out by, you know, what is this move, what is that move, In code, you know, how do I call this function? What does that function do? In writing, how do I write a sentence? You know, what's the punctuation? How to write a paragraph? And so, to some extent, I mean by fluency that you don't have to worry about the basics anymore. You can, you know, because we're fluent in English, we can focus on the ideas. We don't have to kind of struggle with the basic grammar. Does that make sense as fluency being a matter of getting to the point where you can just work at the idea level quickly and easily without having to worry about the detailed mechanics.

Yes, that makes more sense.

Yeah, so if that's what we mean by fluency, then would you say you're partly fluent, fluent as a writer, mostly fluent? How would you describe your fluency? Or maybe you're fluent in some parts of writing and not others. How would you describe your fluency as a writer?

Well, I think I can flow when I'm writing paragraphs, dialogues, sentences, things like that. But sometimes I struggle— or not struggle, sometimes I'm unsure on whether I'm doing like certain format things right. I have to Google it or go check with somebody. So I mean, maybe not all the way, but I think I have some flow.

No, that, that totally makes sense. And I think that is how we learn, that there's kind of a, uh, maybe one part of an activity that we become fluent at, and then there's still kind of edges and frontiers where we have to still learn consciously. Part of this is going from conscious to unconscious. And by conscious, I mean, do you have to think about, you know, the words in a sentence? Do you have to think about the grammar? Do you have to think about the structure of the Python thing? Whereas again, when you and I speak English, we don't have to think about it. You know, our minds are doing it without deliberate conscious thought. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yes.

So there's a core of your writing where you don't have to think about it, but there are also frontiers or edges where you do have to think about it. And I think partly that's because you're becoming more sophisticated and more polished and more professional. Is that accurate?

I hope so. Yes.

Okay. Noah, had you ever thought of learning like this, of how you develop from an expert, I mean, from a novice to an expert, or does it seem strange to think that way?

I think it makes sense. I just haven't thought like this.

Is it useful? Do you think it might be useful to be aware of the process of developing, developing expertise?

Yes. How?

Why would it be useful?

Well, you would kind of keep track on whether or how you're writing, and that might boost— yeah, just sort of boost your awareness and how you write.

Got it. A long time ago, I think I introduced the word metacognition. Do you have any memory at all of what metacognition means?

I do remember talking about that, but I don't quite remember the definition.

No problem. Do you know what cogni— cognition or cognitive, that word means?

Not off the top of my head. I know we talked about it.

It's a fancy word for thinking. So, uh, metacognitive, uh, meta means to be kind of above, and so metacognitive means to be thinking about thinking or aware of how you're thinking. And it turns out that we become better learners when we're aware of how we're thinking and processing and understanding, um, you know, and so it could be that if you become aware of the process of going from novice to expert, or not fluent to fluent, it could— do you think it could help you become a little bit better at developing fluency or expertise?

I think so.

How?

Well, I mean, once you're aware, then you're aware of how you're learning, and you kind of think, like, if you're aware and maybe you're in a class and your other— your friend or someone else in your class that aren't— isn't thinking about, you know, where they are and if they're— if they flow, I guess, like we were talking about in their writing. I think you, the person who is doing that, might excel better if you're constantly thinking about it while you're writing. Yeah.

Got it. Well, let's take this as an experiment going into the school year. Maybe you could try being a little bit more metacognitive about your learning and see if it helps you become more fluent in the various things you're learning. So, and it's tricky because I know sometimes our brains are just totally focused on what's right in front of us. And so in a way, I think it's almost like running an extra program in our brain to be aware of what we're doing while we're doing it. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Would you say that you're already a little bit capable of sort of running an extra program in your brain while you're doing things?

I think so, but I think I need to do more of that.

And now that you know how to program, um, well, you know, I did a little bit of programming a long time ago. I could imagine having a main program, and maybe the main program is Write this novel. And then the other program is, how am I writing the novel? How am I getting better at writing the novel? And the two programs talk to each other. Does that metaphor make sense?

It does.

Okay, well, and with that, I'm going to let you have a fabulous Sunday. What are you going to do today?

Today, one of my friends is coming over, and then they're leaving. Yeah, and then they're leaving tonight. Or yeah, because she came over. I think she went to Hawaii for her summer break and now she's going back home, but this is her first stop. Um, so we're gonna hang out with them today.

Good. Play is really, really important. Having a social life is important. Would you say it's more play or social life, or they're the same?

Um, well, I mean, play When you say play, I usually think about like playing tag and just like hanging out with friends, and then socializing, making newer friends and making sure those friendships stay connected.

Mm-hmm. And will you do both today with her?

Hopefully. Yes.

All right. All right. Well, have a fabulous day, and I hope you have a fabulous week, and I expect I'll see you a little bit this week. So, uh, can't wait for school to start as well. See you tomorrow.

Same here. All right.