On reading Dickens vs. fantasy novels

Yeah, so, um, I got up to— is it 29? Is that what we said?

Um, yeah, yeah, I believe so.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, so now I'm caught up with you and we'll go ahead forward after this. Um, I want— I'm curious, stylistically, do you enjoy, uh, Dickens style more or Austen style more, or both, or neither? How would you categorize that?

Um, I don't have a preference. I think they're both not, uh, I don't know. I enjoy both. I don't think I have like grudges against either one.

Well, grudges is harsh.

Yeah.

But it sounded as if you enjoyed Pride and Prejudice more than Emma?

Yes. Yeah, well, just because, um, okay, I would say that I did, but Emma's storyline was great, but I really enjoyed the story of Pride and Prejudice because it was like just satisfying how everything turned out.

Got it. Um, well, here, I don't know, I guess part of what I'm wondering is I think it's true that Dickens was one of the first people in Britain to really write about how rough life is. So in some ways, I'm interested in the juxtaposition of, you know, Jane Austen's world is all— well, first you can imagine, um, we were sort of talking about how everybody there is, uh, eager to marry up.

Yeah.

And it's not clear how far they could fall, but you could see how if you fell far, it would be horrifying if, you know, socially, in terms of social status and money and so forth. Falling far could be horrible. And so I think Dickens is the first, there was this general sense you wanted to be well positioned in Jane Austen society, but here we kind of see how bad things can be. And I guess I'm wondering, do you think it's useful to portray how bad things can be like this or why? I guess part of it is forget style of Dickens versus Austen. Are you more interested in the kind of marrying up sort of theme of Austen or the Gosh, how horrible it can be on the— in the underbelly of London and Dickens, or both are equal?

Um, that's, that's a good question. I'm not sure which one I enjoy reading about more, but I definitely think that it's good to see both sides. Um, I couldn't really— I've never been in either of the situations, so it's fun to read about. But if you were only in someplace like Pride and Prejudice and you were reading Oliver Twist, which might not happen just because of the timeline, then that would be interesting. And if— and the same is, um, I think the same would happen vice versa. But I think that reading about, um, balls and gowns and marriages and carriages are— is interesting just because I've never like seen that before, but, um, I enjoy reading both.

Um, and then it sounds as if— would you say what percentage of your, um, recreational reading is fantasy? Is it like 80%, 90%, 100%, 50%?

Um, up until maybe last year, it was about, about a good 80 to 90%.

Got it.

But yeah.

What non-fantasy were you reading?

Uh, okay. Well, first, what counts as non-fantasy? Just so I can—

I'm not sure.

I don't know.

I'm not sure.

Okay. When I describe books as fantasy, I mean more like it's set in a world, like a different world, I guess.

Fair enough. That's a good description. And so, right. What were the things that were not set in a different world?

Um, well, I did read, um, The Iliad a little bit on my own. That was one. Um, and then a bunch of books that aren't very— uh, I, I don't know the titles, but I did read a bunch of books that were like, like Oliver Twist in the, in the same, or with the fact that they were about like fiction stories, but they were set in the real human world, I guess.

Got it.

But yeah.

And then in the last year you've read more. Is that primarily because we did The Odyssey and Jane Austen, or were you reading other things in the, as it were, the real world?

Uh, primarily because of us reading together. Um, I've always, if, if I ever read recreationally, um, like outside of school and in school, I do, or they, I have to read like articles and like short stories that are set non-fantasy-like. But I've always enjoyed reading about like otherworld fantasy type books. But I think going into like Dickens and Austen now is really interesting because I'm a little older and I can appreciate it.

Got it. You know, as you know, I'm very big on reading. I was a huge reader when I was your age and I'm a huge reader today. So I'm all for— in for reading. And my perception is when because I do work a lot with teens, that most of the teens, not all, but probably I'll say 80 to 90% of the teens I know who read a lot usually read fantasy. It feels like it's the most popular genre among young people today. And so I guess then my question is, given that, you know, and there's nothing, again, I'm all for reading fantasy. I love Tolkien back in the day and so forth. What is the case for young people to read to kind of go out beyond fantasy? Why, if you were to explain to another teen who's totally into the fantasy reading thing, why might they want to read beyond fantasy?

I would say, I would tell them that it's interesting to read about different scenarios. I mean, for me, it's interesting to read about different scenarios in our own world. That one that I'm more familiar with. And what's fun about it is you can read books that go back in time. So like what this period was like, what this period was like, even like, for example, I just thought of this, like Island of the Blue Dolphins. That's like based on a true story and that's like something I would never experience. So that's like almost fantasy kind of, except set in the real world with like real people.

That's a good example. And so you would say that although fantasy is enjoyable, there's something satisfying perhaps about reading about things that have happened in the real world or fiction set in the real world. So you get a sense perhaps for the range of experience in the real world.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of saying it.

Okay. And then, you know, you mentioned last time, and I agree that there are people today who probably, young children who probably have lives as rough as Oliver Twist, you know, certainly in Africa and Asia and so forth, I'm sure in Latin America. And some, you know, in the US, sadly. Is it worth knowing about how rough lives are for other people or not worth knowing? Or how do you kind of hold that knowledge?

I think it is because for me, I kind of live in a bubble and I don't like go on the news or anything. They show all kinds of bad stuff, but I don't really watch it. So I don't really know if they showcase stuff like that, I don't really know what it's like. Um, and everyone I know and am surrounded with is just as privileged as me. So I think even though it's fiction, reading about like— reading about things that could happen is, is interesting and maybe educational in a way, but I wouldn't say that. Um, but yeah, I think so.

So why— so again, suppose you're persuading a teen to consider, um, reading about either Oliver Twist— well, actually, what is the case you would make to a teen for reading Oliver Twist? If you were gonna— or would you— would you try to persuade somebody to try it or not? And if so, if you were going to make a case, what's the case you would make to another teen to read Oliver Twist?

Uh, yeah, I would. I mean, I would say that Um, I mean, I would say it's interesting. I would say that it's, um, happening all over the world. And also just appeal to them and say that it's got big plot twists and stuff like that, um, and makes you mad, and the characters are good, and, oh, there's this one character that I like.

I would say the plot twists, you know, that's classic Dickens. Um, by the way, uh, you know what a cliffhanger is?

Yes, for sure.

So, uh, all of— most of Dickens' books, maybe all of them, but certainly this one was written as, um, kind of, I think, a weekly serial, sort of like a magazine. And so it was not originally published as a book, right? It was written kind of as a— and people would buy the weekly thing. And so part of the whole history of the cliffhanger, and the thing where Dickens was super effective, is in order to get you to buy the next one, he would try to end each chapter with a 'Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next?' sort of thing.

Interesting. And so I didn't know that.

Yeah, you can sort of see almost the business case, so to speak, for having these plot twists. And in some ways, you know, would you say that Jane Austen did that a little bit or not at all? Or to what extent would you say she was doing that?

I think it depends on the area, or I mean, the part of the book you were on. I think maybe in the beginning just talking about maybe like Pride and Prejudice. In the beginning, it was mostly talking and balls and stuff like that. But closer towards the end, I would say yes, because I believe that she ended a chapter with the— oh, I forgot the sister name— with the sister running off with the guy.

Lydia.

Lydia. But I'm not too sure. Lydia, yes. Yeah. Maybe she didn't end a chapter, but you still wanted to see what was next.

That sounds right. It does seem like— and Jane Austen's books were published as full novels, and so she did not have that incentive to try to do this. But it does sound right that there's a lot of kind of scenario building, character building, the first maybe third or half of the book, maybe longer in Emma. And then you get these kind of more plot things going on towards the end. But Dickens, it feels like almost, maybe not quite every chapter, but like there's almost a plot twist every chapter. And that's because it's serialized. But would you say that makes it kind of faster paced and therefore more enjoyable reading or not necessarily?

Yeah. Yes, I would say so. And it makes me want to read more, which is good.

Yeah. And in which case, given in some ways, I think the language It's hard for me to know if the language of Dickens is harder or the language of Austen is harder, because they both have long sentences. You know, it's not the kind of prose we read today. But I guess I'm thinking that I was wondering if maybe the plot twist action in Dickens makes him a little bit more accessible to people today, whereas with Jane Austen, you kind of need to be slow and patient. Or is that not necessarily the case?

I, I think I agree. Um, both of them are different from modern authors and fantasy books that I read for the— for most of my life. Um, so it was a little difficult going back and like rereading the longer descriptive sentences and like trying to deduct what they're saying because I can't quite understand the first time. Uh, but it's a nice challenge.

Yeah, no, and of course I think it's really good for you. I think it's good for everyone to learn to read these long complex sentences. And my take actually is, although it's initially difficult, that it gets easier with practice. Is that your experience?

For me, not yet, but maybe, maybe a little later.

Um, did Austen get easier over time?

Over time, especially as we like got to the ends of the books, because that's when it was interesting. But, um, I think overall my old writing style of reading has to get a little better.

Yeah, no, it's— it does, it does take practice. Um, by the way, just for the SAT, I recommend teens read a lot of classic novels because the language is so much more complex, the sentences are so much more complex, um, you know, and I would say hang in there. It— I think it does get easier. It's a little bit like learning a foreign language, you know. Um, how are your foreign languages coming, by the way? Are you still cultivating those?

I'm taking a high school credit class of Spanish so I don't have to take it senior year, but yeah, so Spanish class.

Would you say your Spanish is getting better?

Un poquito. A little bit.

There we go. Yeah, I think it's a little bit like learning a language, you know, you learn the style and of course Austen and Dickens' style are different. But, uh, yeah, let's, let's see if gradually it becomes, uh, easier to kind of enter their worlds. Um, anything else you want to say about Dickens or Austen?

Um, nothing other than that I'm enjoying it.

Okay. Um, yeah, we'll set a target. I don't know. I, I don't know. I forget how many chapters there are total, but we, uh, via WhatsApp, let's set a target for next Sunday. I'm thinking 10 to 15 chapters, something like that. Does that sound good?

Okay, all right, sounds good.

Have a good week. Happy Easter.

Thank you. Happy Easter. See you soon.