Origin Myths: Bad History or Wisdom Traditions?

So you have had one week of orientation and one week of real school since I've seen you last. How was orientation week and how was the first week of school?

Well, first of all, I loved orientation. I thought there was some really good material presented and all the teachers are excellent. They're really nice and helpful. They detailed or they explained the schedule in great detail. Kind of explained all the classes. We got to see all— we got to learn about all the newer electives and choose them. I think it was great. And then the first week of actual school, I love my class and I love my teachers. I love the electives I have. I'm having a great time overall.

Great. So tell me about your first-year humanities class. Who's your guide this year?

My guide is Karen. Like last year, she's also my mentor. There are a few familiar faces from last year's class, but some are new, and I think they're really smart and really cool to have a conversation with.

Cool. What did you read this week in Karen's class?

Today— or excuse me, this week we were talking about origin stories, so we read a version of an origin story, I think from the Mi'kmaq tribe. And then, yeah, we talked about that. And then we also read two versions of some Greek origin myths and got into a conversation about whether or not the Disney Hercules is valid on all of their mythology.

Got it. No, I love origin stories. That sounds like a fascinating week. And how about STEM? Do you have a STEM class?

I do. We read, or we are reading, a piece called Lockhart's Lament. I'm not sure how to pronounce that. Lament. Lament. Okay. It talks about how math class, or how children are learning math, is fractured and what he thinks mathematics really is. My bad. So I think that's really interesting. And then Joshua, our guide, he's creating this math game. I think it's called Math Arena. It's sort of like D&D except it's experimental right now. So we played it the first time on Friday and yeah, we're learning. It's awesome.

Great. I'm glad you had Joshua. Did you know Joshua is one of my students and now he's teaching for us? So, yeah. And just on pronouncing words incorrectly, so does lament. Somebody once said that we should always appreciate that when people pronounce words incorrectly, it probably meant they learned them by reading. It's a sign they're a great reader. I think that's a great thing. I remember I was reading you know, origin stories, Native American origin stories when I was a bit younger than you are right now. And I kept wondering what ocean was. They kept talking about the ocean. What was the ocean? And only eventually did I realize it was ocean. But, you know, I didn't know that. And then, oh, that's what ocean is. So I think it's interesting, the difference between reading and learning words and then speaking and learning words. Your electives, tell me about which electives you have.

I have student self— or art and then finance. In art, I had a really great time. We were focusing on drawing the fundamental shapes and complex drawings. So we went off of a few references, I think like 3 pictures.

Mm-hmm.

So Kenton is our guide and then Jason helped out with the class. They're awesome. And then finance, my guide is Jeff. His name is Jeff. We only got into one class so far, but it's really interesting and I think I'm going to take a lot from it.

It's interesting. What led you to pick finance?

I want to learn more about money in general. I think it might be useful to just have it going into middle school.

Well, and what's— I agree. And what's interesting about that too is, you know, your dad has a business and you've worked a little bit with your dad's business and you've sort of thought about your own businesses. Um, and so would you say you know a tiny bit about finance already?

I'd say I have a lot to learn. I'm not sure where I stand right now.

No, fair enough. That's why I said tiny bit. I know you know I don't know very much, but maybe just a tiny bit. What did you learn in Jeff's first class about finance?

So the first class was sort of introductory. We got into the Google Classroom and Slack. Jeff presented us a presentation containing some activities he wanted us to do over the week and weekend, and also just some questions like why do we have money and different, um, or why does it exist.

Really interesting. Do you have you made any progress and why do we have money and why does it exist?

We talked about that in class. Um, as for the why does it exist, we were talking about how humans always traded, uh, valuables and then yeah, why we have money. It's pretty important in our economy today.

And then those— the only two, um, electives you have is art and finance?

Yes, as of right now.

Got it. Um, well, let's go back to origin stories then. Do you think that you have an origin story, or the Americans have an origin story, or is it strictly, uh, traditional peoples and the Greeks who have origin stories?

Well, I think you can think about origin stories however you'd like. I think— or the origin stories we were reading about were like mythology, but I think origin stories could refer to like the beginnings, so like how something started. So like your example, the US in the 1700s, that's their origin story.

Mm-hmm. What's the difference between— or is there an important difference between kind of a mythological origin story and a concrete historical origin story?

Well, there is that difference that we know that the concrete historical origin story happened. And then as for mythology, we know they're myths, so they may not have actually happened.

Got it. In which case, why would we be interested in origin stories if they may not actually have happened?

Because it shows the way that other people thought back in the day, because I think every culture had some kind of myth or origin story because they needed something, or they needed to know, and some sort of basis or how everything came to be. And since they didn't have the things that we have or know today, they came to the conclusion with their origin story.

So would you say— that makes sense. So would you say that Other traditional cultures had these mythological origin stories because they needed an origin story and didn't have a detailed factual version. But would you say that modern Americans have a detailed factual version and therefore do not need a mythological origin story?

I think that's one way to put it. Of course, some people A lot of people don't actually believe in the old sort of ways of thinking. So I think that's one reason why we don't have like a mythological origin story. Though there may be, we just don't know about it.

So do you think that the mythological origin story gives people anything It sounds like one way of looking at this whole situation is either you got a factual version or you don't, and you make something up, which is called myth. Is that the whole difference, that either you have a factual version or you make something up and that's called myth? Or is there any other purpose that a mythological origin story serves?

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if there's anything between that. A lot of cultures, or a lot of origin stories in different cultures are really similar. It shows how they thought and just sort of the same ideas they had.

So what I'm wondering about is that the way in the hand, I feel as if you are interested in origin stories. Maybe you even love origin stories. Is that too much, or would you say you love origin stories?

I definitely like, or I enjoy reading origin stories. I think they're really interesting.

So why do you think you enjoy reading origin stories, but in reality all they are are a weak substitute for facts? If all they are are, hey, those poor people didn't have real facts, why would we enjoy origin stories?

Well, for one, I love reading stories. Whether they be fiction or myth or things like that. Two, it shows how people thought earlier, and it kind of gives us a basis for their belief system and what, you know, what they thought about everything. And also, I think the stories are just really interesting in general.

Mm-hmm. Again, I don't disagree. Lots of interesting things. By the way, I love how you are structuring your ideas in terms of 1, 2, and 3. As somebody who believes in essay writing, I think it's helpful to organize your thoughts, and I love seeing that you're spontaneously organizing your thoughts. 1, 2, 3. I do that all the time. I think it's super helpful. But going back to the main issue, so I'm interested in the notion that we wonder about, or we're curious about, or we enjoy learning about the beliefs of other cultures. Why would, why might it be valuable to learn about the beliefs of other cultures?

Well, they may have lessons that we don't, and they may have information, or not information, but they may, uh, well, to be honest, I'm not quite sure, but I think there's a lot to learn from different origin stories. Um, but I've already said the way other cultures think many times.

But, um, well, and again, I think it's interesting. On the one hand, you clearly enjoy them. We can go back to the story piece. And so you started to say lessons, or, um, what was the other word you used? Uh, knowledge, maybe? Um, information. But, but then your other— the other part of your brain, and I'm kind of exaggerating a little bit, is saying, oh, they're just bad facts. Do you see the kind of tension or conflict between we're learning something valuable from these cultures about the lessons and so forth versus myths are just bad facts? Do you see why it feels like there's a bit of tension in how you're thinking about these things?

Yeah.

Do you have a way to resolve the tension, or for now it's just like, hey, There's a tension between these two things.

For now, I don't. I can't come up with the reason right now.

Totally fine. I think it's interesting to recognize and acknowledge intellectual tensions. Let's go to the stories. You talk about how you enjoy stories. Do you enjoy mythological stories in the same way you enjoy fictional stories, or does your enjoyment of those two different kinds of stories Is it somehow different?

Um, I don't think I enjoy them differently just because one's fiction and one people used to believe in. Um, you know, they're not the same, but I don't see that there's a big rift setting them apart.

So maybe, um, myths are just— they just happen to be good stories and you love good stories, so you love to read good contemporary fiction. You also love to read good ancient myths. Is that accurate, that it's just about the story part?

I don't think it's just about the story part. That may be what the subconscious of my mind is thinking, but, um, you know, I think I think different cultures' myths are really interesting, just maybe not consciously thinking about that, but these stories people used to believe in and worship. So it's just a cool fact to think about.

And it is almost sounding as maybe you're saying— on the one hand you said there are similar contemporary stories and myths, but now it sounds as if you're saying maybe there's something a little bit extra about the myths vis-à-vis contemporary stories. Extra or different. Um, are you saying there's something a little bit extra different about myths than contemporary stories, or myths are just like contemporary stories, they just happen to be written a long time ago?

Well, I don't— like I said, I don't think they're the same. Uh, myths were created way back when, when people believed in them, and then stories were created just for the fun of it, but I don't think it's just for the fun of it. For writing and for fiction and for people to read it and be happy and love the story.

Well, thank you. That's helpful. One of the things I just heard was that the fact that people believed in the myths somehow makes a difference. Is that an accurate difference?

I, yes, I think it sets it apart from actual fiction.

Okay. Um, and then just to check in first, how is your story? How's your third book going?

It's going great. I'm sort of, or I'm at the height right now, and then it's slow, it's going to be slowly descending.

Got it. So you had the, the big conflict took place, you've already written that piece?

I'm in the middle of the big conflict.

Okay. Is it fun to write?

Yes.

Okay, cool. Uh, how long is your manuscript so far?

53 pages, just on Google Doc. It's going to be longer than the others.

Excellent. And again, you're becoming more mature. It makes sense that you would write longer and more sophisticated pieces. Uh, and how is the character development going?

I think it's going fine. Um, I think some of the choices that my characters are making kind of show, but we'll see how it turns out in the end.

Okay, and then going back to the notion of myth, could, could you imagine a world in which your story became a myth for a culture, or is that totally absurd? No way could your story become a myth for a culture.

Well, it's absurd right now, but I mean I guess it could happen, or I could see people hailing Abigail or something.

How would that happen?

Well, to be honest, I'm not— and I have no idea how anything would lead to that, but totally fine.

So I totally get it. And I think we've talked a little bit about a hero's journey. Do you have a sense for what a hero's journey is?

Sort of like the journey that the hero takes, ups and downs and lessons.

Do you know anything more specific about it than that?

I don't know the actual route, or route, that most heroes take, but I do, or I am, I do recognize that.

No, fair enough. One piece that I think is worth considering, it'd actually be interesting to know if this happens with Abigail at all. So often heroes kind of have to go away to have their conflict, and then they have their conflict, they kill the dragon or whatever, and then they come back home. In The Lord of the Rings, Frodo goes far away from home to put the ring— to destroy the ring— and then he comes back home, and he has this long journey associated with it. So does it make sense that often part of a hero's journey is going away in some sense, and then engaging in the heroic battle, and then coming back home?

Yes.

Is there any sense in which your Abigail is doing any of those things, or not really?

She is leaving her base and then at the end going back, so I think that matches.

So that's interesting. Did you deliberately design it as a hero's journey, or did that happen spontaneously?

It wasn't, or I didn't, I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote that. I feel like most heroes have to leave a place in order to go somewhere.

So that's interesting. So one of the things, you probably have not heard of either Carl Jung or Joseph Campbell. Have you heard of either of those people?

I think I recall hearing Joseph Campbell's name somewhere, but I'm not sure who he is.

Yeah, no, no problem. Both Jung and Campbell studied both psychology but also myths, and one of the things they both claim is that a hero's journey is something that takes place in cultures around the world. And I think they would argue that it's a fundamental part of humanity to envision hero's journeys. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And if so, then I think they would say, going back to the question of, are myths just, you know, just bad, bad history? You know, remember earlier in our conversation, basically I was kind of pushing you on the, is myth just an origin story for people's bad history? And if we have solid factual history, we don't need the myths. What if a myth was like a hero's journey style myth? There are other kinds of myths beyond the hero's journey, but what if it was kind of a fundamental story pattern for humanity? Does that make any sense at all?

A myth as a path for humanity?

A story pattern, kind of a pattern that there's certain ways in which human beings naturally tell stories. We'll start there. And the reason I bring it up is that without intending to, you gave Abigail kind of the structure of a hero's journey without trying to, which I'm leading— I'm inferring means Alanna's mind has the hero's journey kind of imprinted on it so that even though you're focused in on Abigail and Abigail's battle and, you know, all the details that I don't know about, it kind of has the structure of a hero's journey naturally. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Could you imagine that maybe human beings are, for whatever reason, just, uh, just designed or spontaneously evolved or whatever? We just— our nature is to be attracted to hero's journeys and to think, uh, mythologically in terms of hero's journeys.

I think that the more hero's journeys you read, the more attached you become to it.

So you would say that Abigail has a hero's journey because you had read lots of previous hero's journeys?

Er, I think that's sort of the point, like, because I've witnessed so many examples or different heroes in different books, that sort of gave me a basis to compare to.

That makes a lot of sense. Then the question would be, if it is true that we see hero's journeys in myths from around the world, and those people didn't get to read lots of examples. Why would— why do you think we would see hero's journeys in different myths from around the world?

I think I agree with what you said. I think the hero's journey is sort of how I would assume at least most people sort of depict either myths or stories. The hero has to leave someplace to— if he needs to do something, especially not if it's near him.

So I'm wondering, we earlier— you were at a place where you felt the tension between myths are valuable versus they're just bad factual histories. Do you remember feeling that tension?

Yes.

What if we were to say part of the reason that myths are valuable is that myths show kind of fundamental human nature that is separate from the factuality of a story. If a hero's journey is part of fundamental human nature, myths kind of help us see fundamental human nature. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Um, do you buy that 100% or do you think that it's kind of stretching it a little bit?

I think I buy it. I think it makes sense.

Okay. So, as you mature, I think it'll be interesting for you to read about myths and history and the difference and similarities in human nature. Does this seem like an interesting vein of thought to think about and develop?

Yes, definitely.

So, yeah, I didn't want to be mean by kind of throwing myths under the bus as bad factual history, but a lot of times I think it's helpful to sort of think about intellectual tensions, where that seems true and that seems true, but they can't both be true exactly in the same way. And then we have to figure out, okay, if there's something true on both sides, how can this be true in one way and that be true in another? Does that make sense?

Yes.

Um, and I would also add, maybe this is going a little bit farther, that you can have stuff that are just mountains and mountains of facts, but they don't have any storyline. That, uh, I don't know if you've ever read like history that's just blah blah blah, fact fact fact fact fact fact, but it's boring and it doesn't stick because there's no fundamental underlying story. Have you ever had that experience reading some histories?

I think so.

Okay, um, yeah, so I'm, I'm interested in how our minds are attracted to some kinds of stories, including automatically a hero's journey. And our minds struggle sometimes when there's not a story. And so the whole relationship of the human mind to story is something that interests me. Make sense?

Yes.

Okay. Anything else you want to touch base on before we take off for the day?

Yesterday was hotter than usual and it was great.

Hotter than usual and it was great. Did you go swimming or anything, or do you just enjoy warm weather?

We're going today. Hopefully it's as warm as yesterday.

In the ocean or in a pool?

In the ocean.

All right. Are you going to surf?

I think so.

So I'm so impressed that you are learning to surf. On a real surfboard or on like a little boogie board or something?

On my dad's old one.

You can surf on a real live surfboard?

Not that well. I haven't— we don't— I haven't gone regularly, but I can stand up.

I'm impressed you can do it all. I think it's a really cool sport, and the fact that you can do it all makes you have superpowers. But imagine you're very strong because of jiu-jitsu. Would you say you're pretty strong?

I think so.

All right. Well, be careful and have a lot of fun surfing today. And have a great week of class, and hopefully we'll see you next week.

Okay, thanks, Michael. Bye.

Thank you. Bye-bye.