Our most Socratic convo in a long time

So, uh, what I'm thinking of this morning, Alana, is you're aware of the fact that adults disagree on many things in the world, correct?

For sure, yes.

So, um, I guess I'm wondering, what is your mental model for why do adults disagree? Um, you know, if there's, if there's one true— if there is a truth, why do not all the adults agree on the truth? And if we all know what's good, why don't we all converge on what is good? What is your theory for why adults do not agree about what is true and good?

I think that if you started with the truth— I don't know if we did, but I think if you started with money, it would go— it would spiral towards where we are now because people want other people to believe things so that that person has more power, I think. Or maybe or influence. I don't know if that's the right way to put it, but that's the first thing that came to mind.

Okay, let me— maybe— did you have more?

Um, I just had an example, but it's okay, you can go.

No, give us, give us your example.

Um, one of the first things I thought of was maybe politics, like maybe politicians lie to get what they want.

Got it. Um, well, and, and I was going to rephrase what you were saying to see if, um, I'm understanding you correctly. So So you're saying even if at some point we all knew the truth and agreed on the truth, it sounds as if your number one, or at least the first thing you thought of as to why adults disagree is basically they're, I'm gonna be harsh, but they're selfish and corrupt. That is because adults are selfish and corrupt, therefore, do you think it's a deliberate distortion of the truth to kind of serve, self-serving? It sounds like you're saying adults redirect the truth to that which— or redirect what they say is true to that which is self-serving. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Um, which again paints a terrible picture of human beings. It could be true, but, um, yeah, is— in which case, let's go to the other extreme. Suppose all— anybody— and I'm picking on adults, we'll assume— well, we can go into later, our kids different, but Assuming adults all just are doing self-serving beliefs, then is there any truth, or is— are all beliefs merely self-serving beliefs?

I think that not all beliefs are self-serving beliefs. I mean, I don't know much about it, but I've heard that liberalism, I don't think is— it's about protecting the rights of people. But I don't know. I don't know if that's a perfect example, but I don't think every belief would be.

So if at least some people are using self-serving beliefs, but you think not all beliefs are merely self-serving, then how do we get to the truth?

That's hard. I mean, my first thought was taking away all the people who like want power or want something under their control. Like they're telling lies just so that they can get something, but then that would probably be everybody, so I don't know.

So let's take it back down to kids because you know the world of kids better than adults, um, and you know, you're in these Socratic classes. So would you say among your peers in a Socratic class Do you think people are closer to self-serving beliefs or seeking the truth or somewhere in between?

Um, well, in my classes so far, for sure seeking the truth. I don't think— I mean, it's, it's not like one person is like leading the others to a false belief just so that everybody thinks that he's right, you know.

So you would say that in your Socratic class, you think most of the students most of the time are in fact seeking the truth?

Um, I think maybe not most. I think it's all. I mean, just for— I mean, my classmates in my community, I think it's all. Um, and we all have different beliefs right now, so that may mean different things. Um, but I mean, I think we're still innocent.

Wow, that's wonderful. If you're correct that all of you are seeking the truth, do you think that in a given class or on a particular issue, you mostly converge on the truth or sometimes converge on the truth?

What do you mean converge?

Do you know what the verb converge means?

Like come together?

Yeah. So, you know, at the beginning of class, I would assume, you know, if you're— can you give an example of something you've discussed? I know it's just Thanksgiving week, but before Thanksgiving week, of an issue you've discussed where maybe it started with some disagreement and then towards the end of class there was more agreement?

Um, actually, I can think of more examples with my old humanities class. Um, there was one discussion we had where we read a text and it was about— I forget who it was by, but it was about the, like, the purpose of living. And about half the class thought that the purpose of living was like to reproduce and make sure your, like, your species survives because that's like the main purpose of all animals. But, and the other half of the class thought that since humans are humans, we're special and we should like focus on ourselves rather than the future. Um, and I feel like in the end we did come a little bit together and we weren't so far apart, I guess.

And, um, that's what I mean by converge, by the way, is, you know, move towards, um, move— maybe not perfect alignment, but at least move towards greater alignment. Would you say in that class you, as a group, you move towards greater alignment?

A little bit, yeah.

Got it. And so in that case, if all the students are pursuing the truth, tell me about how it is, A, that they start off in different places, B, they get greater, more aligned, and then C, they don't get completely aligned. Why didn't— if there is one truth, why didn't they all just start at the truth and end at the truth? Why do they start in different places and then get partway aligned but not all the way aligned?

Well, to start at the beginning, once we were reading the text, I think apart from the text, we might have heard different things from our parents or from other sources that might have made us think that way. Like, I've read and seen a lot of other people talk about how usually with humans and with animals, like, the purpose of life is to put your genes farther into the future and reproduce. Um, but I've other students in my class may not have read or learned about that. So, and so they might have thought that the purpose of life was to, you know, have fun and have experiences, which I agree about. But I just— we were talking about different levels, I think, of that purpose. Um, and then once we started arguing and discussing about which one was right, um, we started go into the fundamentals of our opinion and why, why it was our opinion. And I think talking through it helped us to find some similarities and bring it together. And to be honest, we didn't really want to disagree that much, so I think part of it was trying to find like common ground with the other side. But I think eventually we ended up where we weren't arguing as much and we were just talking about it and we came up and our opinions came together a little bit.

So if I understand you correctly, the two sides were, um, were just, you know, animals, genetics, reproduction versus experiences, enjoying life. And gradually you decided that in some way they're kind of complementary. That is, it's not strictly a contradiction. Both perspectives have validity depending on how you look at the situation.

Yes.

So at the end of the day, then you mostly agreed that the purpose of life is to reproduce and have a good time while doing so, or is that too simplistic?

I'm not sure if I'd call it simplistic, but we did. Instead of opposing each other so much, we agreed with each other a little bit, if that makes sense.

Got it. And so would you say then, as a consequence of this discussion, your personal opinion became that your purpose in life is to reproduce and have a good time while doing so?

At the end of the discussion, yes.

Got it. And I guess if that's the purpose of life, then why would you be critical of adults who develop self-serving beliefs? Because if self-serving beliefs help people to reproduce and have a good time while doing so, shouldn't everybody pursue self-serving beliefs?

That logic makes sense, but I think that the thing that knocks at it a little is because you might be harming other humans while doing so.

Well, I certainly see how you could harm other humans while doing so, but in your class, and, um, you were part of that class, it sounds as if a discussion of harming other human beings didn't enter the purpose of life. Not harming other human beings did not enter the purpose of life at all. Am I correct about that?

Yes.

Okay. So how did you sneak in this notion that we shouldn't harm other people?

I was thinking about that when you started talking about the self-serving beliefs.

So, but again, assuming you and your class were right that the purpose of life is you know, reproduction and having a good time while doing so. Um, how do you, how do you, what do you do with this other notion we shouldn't harm other people? Is that just a superstition you picked up? Is that something you believe? Is that genetic? Is that a cultural belief? Where do you get that, that we shouldn't harm other people?

Um, I mean, I guess it might be a cultural belief, but I feel like I was taught that harming other people is— I mean, harming other people if they haven't done anything to you is bad.

And so are you— do you think you're going to stick with that, or now that you, um, see that perhaps it's just a cultural belief, you're going to give up on it and go all in on self-serving beliefs?

I'm not gonna go all in on self-serving beliefs, and I don't think I'm going to give up that notion either. Um, I mean, I think it's possible you might believe in both. Maybe try and fulfill your self-serving beliefs while not harming other people. But maybe people don't care if they harm other people if they get through, if they're able to serve their self-serving beliefs. I don't really know. But I don't know, since I don't know what other people are thinking, I don't— I can't know what they're gonna do.

Got it. Have you, have you ever heard of the Golden Rule?

Uh, yes, I just couldn't define it right now.

So the one basic version is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Um, does that make sense?

Yes.

Do you think that you— what do you think of that as a rule for behavior, that, um, you should treat other people as you would like them to treat you?

I think it's a great rule of behavior because since everyone wants to be treated well and, you know, do good, then if you follow that rule, then everyone's gonna be treated well.

And actually, we could wrap that around to self-serving beliefs. Um, do you want other people only to— I mean, you— it's interesting, you've got your, your fellow students at TSC where you're saying they 100% want to pursue the truth. And then you've got this picture of adults where many of them are indulgent in self-serving beliefs. Do you think if we apply the Golden Rule, do we want other people to pursue the truth, or do we want other people to engage in self-serving beliefs?

I mean, I guess by that logic, you want everyone to pursue the truth, right? But people aren't.

So it sounds as if, um, you have some unresolved contradictions. Is that fair to say?

Yeah.

Okay. These are actually big, huge, deep issues. So just being aware of the time and the fact that most people don't want to watch a 45-hour, 2-hour long conversation, I'm just going to leave you with these contradictions, but it sounds like you would agree that your class's view that life is about reproduction and having good experiences does not include, or may not include, do not harm other people. And that insofar as you're sympathetic to the Golden Rule, there's at least a tension there, if not a contradiction. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Actually, to put you on the spot just a little bit more before we go, do you, could you imagine, suppose you had a choice in life at some point where you could have a great fun experience, like this super fun, cool thing. Oh, but by the way, doing so would harm somebody else. Would you choose to do something that was really fun if it resulted in harming somebody else?

Um, I think it depends on how fun the thing is and how much it would harm the other person. But if the thing was really fun and it only harmed the other person, like— actually, no, it depends on what harming is. But I mean, if worse comes to worst, probably not, especially if— I mean, especially if it was someone I knew.

Probably not. Okay, okay. But you can see there are, uh, it's interesting that you, you're, it sounds like you're tempted to say, to take the most extreme case, if you're going to have a huge amount of fun doing it and it only harms people you don't know a tiny bit, then you might go ahead and do it. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's under that case, and I think a lot of people would.

A lot of people including Alana Garcia?

Yes. Okay, probably depends.

All right, you see that there is a lot more to discuss here.

Yes, for sure.

In which case, I will let you think on all this. Have a wonderful day, and we will talk again soon.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome. Bye-bye.