Socratic educator Michael Strong discusses Vygotsky with Alana, age 7

Okay, I can hear you and you can hear me, correct?

Yes.

Excellent. How are you?

Good, how are you?

I'm very well. You're at the beach, it looks like.

Uh-huh, I am.

Are you gonna have fun?

I'm sure I will.

I'm sure you will too. So I sent ahead a couple of sentences for you to read. Did you get a chance to read them?

Uh-huh.

And they were by a man named Vygotsky. Do you— have you ever heard of Vygotsky before?

No, I haven't.

I wouldn't think so. Do you know what kind of a name that is?

I don't think so.

It's Russian. So have you heard Russian words or Russian names before?

No, I don't think so, but I have heard of Russia.

Okay, so Vygotsky was a Russian. Why don't we start? Do you have the text in front of you that I sent you?

No, I don't. Maybe my dad can set it up, but he's way over there right now.

Okay, in which case I will read it, but you have read it in the past, so if I read it, it'll be kind of familiar, right?

Yep.

Okay, so I'll read it slowly and then we can talk about it.

Okay.

So thought, unlike speech, does not consist of separate units. When I wish to communicate the thought that today I saw a barefoot boy in a blue shirt running down the street, I do not see every item separately: the boy, the shirt, its blue color, his running, the absence of shoes. I conceive of all of this in one thought. But I I put it into separate words. A speaker often takes several minutes to disclose one thought. In his mind the whole thought is present at once, but in speech it has to be developed successively. A thought may be compared to a cloud shedding a shower of words. Okay, so does that make any sense at all or no sense at all?

It makes pretty much sense to me.

Okay, can you explain what it means to you?

For me, it just means like, like he's expressing what— for me, it just, it's just like he's expressing what he saw and what he felt, what that boy was running and what he was like.

Okay. Do you think thoughts are the same as words or is there some kind of difference between a thought and a word?

For me, a thought is like saying it in your brain, like, wondering, and a word is like saying out loud, like this.

I see. And do you think that— so suppose you're at the beach. Do you see anybody running, by the way?

I don't see really anybody running. I just see them walking to the water, but my brother's running right now.

Okay. And when your brother's running right now, let's see, when you said that, you said, "My brother is running right now." 6 words, right? Mm-hmm. When you saw your brother running, was that the same as the 6 words? Was it faster than 6 words or slower than 6 words? What's the difference between the words you used and what you, the experience of seeing your brother running?

Like in what way experiencing the experience of my brother running?

So you saw him running and when you saw him running, did your brain like instantly know, oh, that's my brother running without the words? Or do you have to have the words in order to understand what's going on in your brain?

I think my brain just instantly knew he was running because I saw him running. Yeah.

So is it fair to say that at least with things you see, your brain is just like instant, like boom, got it?

Yeah.

And is it fair to say that words take a little bit longer?

Yeah, like I see a boy in blue shorts running. That would take longer to say. In your brain, I see a boy with blue shorts running.

Okay, so I'm going to go to one of the later sentences in Vygotsky's paragraph when he says, a speaker— and that could be you or I or anybody, anybody who's speaking, any human being speaking— so a speaker often takes several minutes to disclose one thought. In his mind, the whole thought is present at once, but in speech it has to be developed successively. Does it make sense when he says, in your mind, your whole thought is present at once?

Uh-huh.

Um, but when you use words, they have to be— it has to be developed successively, kind of bit by bit.

Yep.

So then the final sentence is, a thought may be compared to a cloud shedding a shower of words. What do you think that means?

Like a thought is maybe like, like he's expressing what he thinks, like a thought is kind of like a cloud showering words into your brain or out your mouth.

Does that seem like an accurate metaphor to you or an accurate analogy? So when you see something like your brother running, it's instant. How about I'm trying to think of a different kind of idea. How about you had the idea that you want to go to the beach. Is that instant like seeing your brother running?

Yeah, like I'm gonna go to the beach tomorrow.

Okay, would you say the thought is more instant than the words it takes to talk about it?

Yeah.

So So yeah, for you, but do you think for most people, do you think some people, do you think some people only think in words or do you think for most people they have thoughts and then it's a different step to put those thoughts into words?

Excuse me?

So for you, you have thoughts that are instant, whether it's going to the beach or seeing your brother run, the thought is instant. But Putting it into words takes a little tiny bit longer, correct?

Yeah, like saying it out loud, like, I see a boy wearing blue shirts running. And then in my mind, it would just be, I see a boy, like instantly saying those words in my brain really fast.

Exactly. And do you think that most human beings are like you?

Maybe.

In that respect? Okay.

I don't know.

Yeah, I know it's hard to know, but I would say that it certainly is the case for me, that's my experience as well. And if Vygotsky wrote this, I think it was probably his experience as well. And so it's an interest, I think it's interesting to wonder if all people kind of certain things they think instantly, but words take longer. Does that seem likely?

Uh-huh.

Okay. Do you think it's interesting to think about the difference between your thoughts and your words?

Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting.

Okay. Anything else you want to say about it before taking a day at the beach?

Not that I can think of.

Okay.

But I think that the person who made it must be really good at making poems.

Oh, tell me more, tell me more.

Like, I just think that his personality in like writing poems is great because if he could write that poem, I think like he's just— I just love that poem. So I forget the name, but whoever made that, I think has— I think It's pretty awesome.

A wonderful— Vygotsky is his name. So I just— I don't know if this is your favorite part, but for me, my favorite part— well, do you want to say what your favorite part of the poem is?

For me, when he— I have two favorite parts. When he said about that boy running in the blue shirt, and when he said a thought is like a cloud of of like showering words.

I agree, I agree with both of those. In some ways I think, yeah, they're both really, really good. I like the cloud showering words, that's like my favorite, favorite part, but the boy running in blue shirt, that's pretty important too. So I agree, those are both kind of cool, and can you say why you think they're so cool?

Just like the definition of him saying that he saw something running, I just think is pretty cool because maybe there actually was a boy running down with a pair of blue shirt.

Mm-hmm. Well, and I love the fact that you see it— whoops, sorry, an airplane. No, that's a car. It's a loud car. I love the thought that you see this as really great poetry. I love the fact that you called that out. Because especially I remember I read this many years ago, but I always remember both the boy in the blue shirt as well as the cloud shutting a shower of words. I think one mark of really great poetry for me is when you remember it for a long time. Does that make sense? Yeah, because it's just a powerful image, and it's a powerful visual image, you know. It's the sort of thing that I can just instantly picture a shower of words coming down. Even though it doesn't really exist. You know what I mean? All right, well, thank you for a wonderful conversation, Alana, and I'll let you have a fantastic day at the beach. Okay?

Okay, see you next Sunday.

All right, see you next Sunday. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you. Bye.