Socratic educator Michael Strong with Alana, Age Five

You are reading lots of books, I hear.

Yes, I am.

You finished Harry Potter, is that true?

Yes, it is.

How was that?

It was really good because it was a long book.

How much did you read on your own versus how much did you read with your parents?

I read 2 chapters. I mean, I read 1 chapter by myself, 2 chapters— I mean, 1 chapter with my mom, and the rest of the chapters by myself.

Wow, that's very impressive. And you're also reading a book about Greek myths, is that correct?

Yes, I was just reading it.

Okay. So tell me a little bit, what are you reading in the book about Greek myths?

So the chapter I chose was the Trojan War, so I'm learning about the Trojan War.

And what is the Trojan War about?

So the Greek, so Paris, the one who is trying to Who took the apple to Aphrodite, the golden apple.

Mm-hmm.

That— so he gave the apple to Aphrodite, and then Aphrodite made, made, made his dad, Pelops— I mean, the king, I forget his name though— to, to make him to go to to Menelaus and Helen, the most beautiful woman in the world, mortal, I guess. And then once Menelaus didn't know, he took Helen away, and then the war was all about taking Helen back.

Got it. Um, and did you like this story?

I did, and that's why I chose it. I was thinking about the last one for a little while, and then I was like, oh yeah, I really love the Trojans.

Okay, why do you love the Trojans?

Because they want— because they have like something, uh, homeland and everything they need, and the Greeks also too.

Mm-hmm.

But except the Trojans didn't win.

I see. And, um, so it talks about a myth. What— do you have any idea what a myth is?

A myth is something that didn't happen, but, but people know and made it up. Like, if this really happened, the Trojan War, then everybody would wanting to find all the treasures that they found and their homeland where it was.

So is the myth the same as a story or is it different from a story?

It's different from a story because a myth is something that didn't really happen.

But a story is something that did happen?

Well, a story sometimes can be fictional, but some are not.

Did Harry Potter really happen?

No, there aren't any wizards in this world.

Okay, is Harry Potter a myth?

I would say yes, because there's been no magic brooms in this world ever.

So would you say everything that's fictional is therefore a myth?

Actually, it's non-fictional.

So you're saying myths are non-fictional?

Yeah.

So what does it mean for something to be fiction?

Fiction is real, like it's, it's been happening.

Okay, I think usually we use the words the other way, that Fiction is made up and non-fiction is, is real. So it sounds like you kind of got those two confused.

Yeah, because I can't remember by myself, so I have to read a lot.

That's okay, that's okay. So if fiction is the made-up one, does that mean both the Greek myths and Harry Potter are fiction?

Maybe, but we could ask someone who made it up if it's real or not.

Do you think that, um, there are Greeks and Trojans in the real world, or that there used to be at some point in time?

Maybe there used to be, because no one knows. Maybe it's a myth.

Okay, um, so what is history? Do you have any idea what history is?

History is also something that didn't happen, but everyone knows about it.

Have you— do you know any in America?

Not everyone knows about it though. Sometimes only a little people know it.

Do you know anything about the history of your family?

History of my family? I'm not really sure.

That's okay, that's okay.

Because it happens in all of my family.

How about American history? Do you know any American history?

I'm learning about that though. I need a— I don't really know much history, so I need— so that's why my dad is putting on more podcasts.

Okay, what kind of podcasts do you listen to?

Well, I listen to like kids podcasts, but like the word kid podcast, but my dad listens to history podcasts.

What kind of history podcast does he listen to?

Well, Jocko Podcast, Joe Rogan, um, and I forget what else.

Okay.

Or the Sam Harris.

Okay, so going back to the Trojan War, I'm looking at it and, um, it starts by saying when the goddess Eris, a notorious troublemaker, was not invited to the marriage of Peleus and the sea nymph Thetis, she created strife. Do you remember that part?

Yes.

So do— what do we know about this goddess Eris and why she wants to create trouble?

Because she didn't get invited to the marriage of Pallas and Thetis.

So does that make sense that somebody would be a troublemaker because they weren't invited to a wedding?

Well, it wouldn't make sense to me because it's not really making more sense to me right now.

Is that because you would never be a troublemaker?

Yeah.

Do you think that some—

Nobody ever calls me that.

What's that?

Nobody ever calls me that.

I see. Um, do you know people who've been called troublemakers?

Um, let's see. I don't. I don't know anybody that's been called a troublemaker.

So how do you know what a troublemaker is?

So a troublemaker makes trouble because maybe they want to do stuff that, that is bad to others, or maybe they're just angry and they have feelings inside them.

So do you think that usually people only cause trouble when they're angry, or what other things might cause people make people cause trouble?

Well, there is some other things that can make people cause trouble, like feelings that they're hurting their parents or they're bullies, so maybe they're doing bad stuff.

So why do you think bullies are bullies?

Because they have feelings inside them, like maybe their parents are yelling at them and slapping them a lot. So maybe that's why.

I see. So when Eris is a troublemaker and she causes trouble, it's because she has feelings inside that somehow make her unhappy?

That she has feelings that are hurt because she didn't get invited.

Would you have— would you feel hurt if you didn't get invited?

No, I would just— if I were Aries, I would just go on with the flow, and I wouldn't— and if I wouldn't be invited, I would just go away and say nothing.

Why do you think some people, um, do you think some people are hurt more than others, or people deal with their hurt in different ways?

Yes, some people deal with their hurt other ways, but some can really have problems with their parents.

Got it. Um, so I'm reading the song, and it right away it talks about, um, You know, outside the gates of the wedding celebration, Eris etched upon a shiny golden apple the words 'To the most beautiful.' She then tossed the apple out into a group of the grandest goddesses who were until this moment enjoying the wedding. The goddesses all grabbed for the apple and it fell. In the scuffle for it, one of the goddesses kicked it and it landed at the feet of Zeus. 'It's up to you, my dear,' said Hera, Zeus's wife. To decide to whom that apple belongs. Yes, Zeus, said Aphrodite. Please use your wisdom, Father, and decide the matter, said Athena, who had been born from Zeus's forehead. Do you remember all of this part?

Yes, I do. So whenever I watch— because I watched Troy: The Fall of a City one time, but my dad never let me— never lets me watch it again.

I see. When Athena said, Athena said, please use your wisdom, father, and decide the matter, what does she mean by please use your wisdom?

Please use your head to figure out who the apple belongs and who is going to choose.

So please, wisdom means basically using your head, like using your head that—

what, like you're smart, like you're smartest, so except when you're invisible because you're a goddess.

Wisdom is to be the smartest?

Well, wisdom is not only the smartest though. Sometimes it can be other things that are better than wisdom.

Okay. Can you be smart without being wise, or wise without being smart, or wise and smart basically the same?

Wise and smart are actually basically the same.

Okay. Um, and then how should Zeus decide to whom to give the apple? Is there any, any way he can make the decision properly?

Well, he chose— well, the decision he chose, that the one who could choose the apple to any of the goddesses, he chose Paris, a shepherd on Mount Ilias. I forget.

Yeah, you're actually— your memory is quite good. He chose Paris. It says a handsome young shepherd on Mount Ida near Troy, and then the ladies agreed that they would submit themselves to the judgment of Paris, and they gave them a gift and promised. So why, why do you think he wanted to give the decision to Paris?

Because he's really— well, I didn't know, but maybe someone could find that out because I don't think my family knows. Okay, I'll try and think of it.

Okay, do you think it's good to think about what stories are saying, or should we just read stories and enjoy them?

Well, I think it's fun to talk about stories with other people too. Instead of just reading them.

Why is it good to talk to other people about stories?

So if they don't understand it, you can teach them.

I see. So you're helping me to understand the story better.

Or, or we all know it.

Or we all know it? Okay, well, there's just all these things about the story that I wonder about sometimes, and it's helpful to think about it to figure out what wise is and to figure out why certain people— why did Eris, you know, become a troublemaker? And why— what's the difference between fiction and myth? Do you think adults know all the answers to all questions?

No, not always.

What kinds of questions do adults not know the answers to?

Well, kids don't really know because sometimes they don't really know the questions.

Okay. Okay. What are you going to read next?

To read next? Read the other chapter after the Trojan War.

You're going to keep going through the Greek myth book? Yes. How do you read? One chapter a day? One chapter a week? One chapter an hour?

Sometimes I read like, sometimes all of the chapters in two days.

And do you like, do you like to read in the mornings or evenings, or when do you like to read?

I like to read whenever like it's more in the day because I have lots of stuff to do in the morning.

What are you going to do today? Are you going to go to the beach again?

I, I'm thinking yes because my dad said we were.

That's fun.

I bet because yesterday we went to the beach in the afternoon and it was high tide when, when we were close, so close to the shore.

Do you always like to go to the beach, or do you get tired of the beach sometimes?

Sometimes we go a lot, so I just want to take a rest, but I love the beach sometimes.

And do you like swimming, surfing, building sandcastles? What kind of stuff do you like to do at the beach?

Well, the only thing my dad lets me do is go surfing in the water. He never lets me do anything else.

I see. Is that the only thing you would want to do at the beach?

No, I want to play in the sand. I want to play on the grass.

Okay. Are you going to go to the park today as well, or just the beach?

I don't know. I don't know all the plans of today.

Okay, no problem. Well, it's great to begin, um, to talking to you about stories. I'll look at the story more and we'll kind of figure out which stories you're looking at, and bit by bit, I think it might be really fun to talk about the stories together. Okay?

Okay.

Okay, have a wonderful day, Alana. Bye-bye.

Bye.