Starting Jane Eyre

So Jane Eyre, Jane Eyre, first 5 chapters, what do you think?

It was great. Um, I think a little while ago I read like maybe the first 5 to 10, so it was a nice refresher. Um, and I was able to, or since I wanted to think of things to, or think of things extra deeply so I know I would understand them, I had a better understanding of everything.

Got it. Are you looking up vocabulary words or just trying to figure them out from context?

Um, for now I was just trying to figure them out, but, um, when I like sit down and read it again, I, um, I wanted to look up some words. There were some longer words that I wasn't too sure about. I don't remember, but I think I got everything in general.

Okay. Yeah, it is a pretty sophisticated vocabulary and I, I always encourage people to be word geeks. And I know it's— if you're reading along, it takes time and so forth, but I would encourage you to, you know, do you read on a hard copy or a Kindle, or how are you reading it?

Right now I'm reading online, on an online library.

Yeah. But yeah, just good idea. You know, you can copy and paste words where you want to, you know, geek out on them and so forth. But, okay. Yeah. So one of the things this is famous for, actually, and I checked up on this, is this is one of the first major first-person narratives. And so I assume you're familiar with that. Yeah, first person versus third person. Are most of the books you read first person or third person in terms of your recreational reading?

I would say that it's pretty even, and I don't really know what chooses an author to go with either one, but I do know that, um, I, I always mix up the persons, but I know that all the books that we've read together so far have been the opposite of Jane Eyre, right?

So first person is I, just in grammar. First person is I, second person is you, third person is they. Um, and so, right, uh, everything else has been third person. And one of the things that, uh, again, I was reading up a little bit on background, is that although Jane Austen writes in third person, we get some sense of what Emma and Elizabeth are thinking, even though it's third person. Does that sound accurate?

I think so, just like the way they write, kind of.

Maybe. I was trying to remember myself, and I couldn't remember clearly, but for me at least, I would say Jane Eyre is first person. I, I, I, feels much more immediate. I would say therefore compelling and enjoyable. Yeah, you would agree?

I agree. Yeah.

Do you— did you remember the fight scene when she gets in the fight right off the bat with her stepbrother?

Yes. Yeah, I remember.

Do you like such a feisty fighting character?

In Jane, yes, I do. And I was mad at the other kid because he was my age and she was my brother's age. So it just makes me feel a little bad, but it was a good scene.

Have you ever known any kid— I know obviously you were a competitive wrestler and jiu-jitsu, but have you known any kids that have gotten in any kind of fights in real life?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've heard about fights at schools and stuff. My school was still a little different than public school. It was really chill. One class, so all the kids were like friendly with each other, so I never saw any real fights. But all my cousins and my friends who go to regular school, they tell me about real fights all the time.

Oh really?

Yeah, like serious real fights, just like kids, um, or girls or boys or whatever getting into arguments and then fighting. I don't know how common it is, but my friends told me that they've seen Quite a lot.

Got it. And then the other thing I wonder about, first person is great because you have that immediacy of experience. But again, it makes me wonder, is Jane exaggerating things or not? And so I guess, how honest and accurate do you think Jane's account is of her own experience? Do you think we're supposed to trust her 100% or we should trust her? Or is there any evidence we shouldn't trust her perception of events?

I didn't really think about that. I feel like there's no evidence to say we shouldn't, but I also learned about unreliable narrators recently, so you never know. But I feel like, um, I don't really know what she would lie about per se. I was— I would actually— I was a little confused. I didn't really understand the sickness that she got in the Red Room or after the fight. So maybe she could be exaggerating a little bit. She is 10 years old, but not too much, I wouldn't say.

And when you say she's 10 years old, is your expectation that younger children are more likely to exaggerate than older people? That is, you're kind of throwing 10-year-olds under the bus there a little bit.

Um, uh, I don't know. I know some pretty capable 10-year-olds actually, but I guess I was thinking that maybe they would they would exaggerate a little bit. But that's relative because adults can exaggerate too based on their motives. So I don't know.

It's totally true. The one signal to me that she might not be a completely reliable narrator, we honestly don't know, is the discrepancy between— I forget the nanny's— the woman who takes care of her, Bessie. Is it Bessie?

Yes.

You know, Bessie seems surprised. You know, Jane thinks Bessie is mean to her all the time, whereas Bessie seems surprised by that. Do you think that Jane is right or Bessie is right, or maybe the truth somewhere in between? Or how do you explain the discrepancy between Jane and Bessie's perception of what's going on there?

I think that's a good point. Jane is— feels very lonely and feels like everyone is being mean to her. But from what I noticed, I thought that Bessie was the kindest to her out of everybody in the household. So maybe there was just some extra angst or something, but, um, from her perspective, it could be like that.

Her perspective? Jane's?

Yes.

Um, do you think— and I'm going to sort of potentially throw Jane under the bus— do you think some people are kind of dramatic or melodramatic about their own experience, that they sort of exaggerate things?

For sure. Yeah, I think so.

Is there any chance that maybe Jane has a bit of a victimhood narrative going on with the whole household thing?

Possibly, yes.

And clearly her stepbrother is a jerk. I guess my assessment is with Bessie, maybe she's not completely fair to Bessie. With her stepbrother, do you remember his name?

Oh, uh, shoot. Oh, John. John Reed, I think.

Yeah, he's a total— I mean, I'm convinced he's a jerk. And the step— Well, actually, the stepmom relationship is interesting. What do you make of, um, the conversation, the last conversation that Jane and her stepmom have? How do you take that?

Um, overall, I think she's pretty dismissive of Jane and like kind of puts her down. And I know that, um, Jane's dad was the stepmom's brother or something, and he made her promise to take care of Jane like a child, and she has been feeding her and housing her, but she's not necessarily treating her like, like her own child, which is an important distinction, I think. So I think that she sees her more as a burden instead of an actual kid. So I feel like she is mean and dismissive and, um, more worried about her own children and will maybe exaggerate things that Jane does.

Fair enough. One thing that comes up for me is, you know, stepfamilies can be hard. I mean, there's a case to be made. I mean, there's certainly natural parents that are perhaps not great parents to their own kids, but there's also a long thing in literature, and I think in real life, where— and again, there are stepparents who can be wonderful stepparents, but I think they're also, you know, certainly in literature, but again, I think in real life, cases where stepparents are not quite as, um, as close and caring as real parents. What's your take on that? Do you think the stepparent thing is, is problematic, or you have no idea?

Do you mean problematic in general?

Yeah, I mean, clearly here it's problematic, but do you think it might be harder? Do you think there's more of a risk that if it's not your own child and you're raising somebody else's child. I know clearly adopted families sometimes work out beautifully. I don't know, how, how much weight do you put on the stepparent aspect of this?

Uh, I mean, it really depends on the, the stepparent, but also I feel like in most real cases, the mother or father of the stepchild is still alive. So there's like, oh, maybe one, someone loves that person, and then so is obligated to take care of the kid. But in this case, um, it's just the kid and it's her brother, and we don't know the relationship between them. So that's the difference. But I feel like most stories I hear, it turns out okay, um, for the kid. And since the stepparent, uh, loves the other parent or wants to be in a relationship with them, they've got to accept it. And then most of the time— oh, I don't know about most of the time— that I hear about cases where it turns out great and the stepparent is absent. And I know there's other cases where that— where it isn't, but I think the biggest difference here is that there is no other parent, so it's just a different situation.

Yeah, she's an orphan, as by the way was Oliver Twist. So in both cases, sort of orphaned. Um, one other dynamic I want to check in on is sometimes when kids misbehave— I guess it's an open question— when kids misbehave Is it the kid's fault, or is there a problem in the family dynamic? And so one interpretation, and this is her stepmom's interpretation, is Jane is a bratty kid. Let's get rid of the bratty kid, send her off to school, glad to be rid of her. Of course, from Jane's side, it's an unfair family dynamic. And so insofar as she might act out a little bit, you know, Jane, it's Jane's right to act out because she's not being treated fairly. Um, do you think that it's a common or a familiar dynamic that sometimes, uh, say a kid acts out, but in fact it's not the kid's fault if they're acting out? Have you ever heard about or seen situations like that?

I think that can definitely be true. I think, uh, sometimes the way or the environment the child grew up in, like, maybe promoted that kind of behavior. Um, in this case, she, the stepmom was always, or most likely was always really, uh, like maybe ignored her or didn't treat her the same. So Jane always felt cast aside and she was always kind of angry and maybe that made her bratty. Or yeah, bratty in the mom's eyes. And then in her eyes, she's just crying a little bit and being mad and lonely. Um, so I think it's— especially at that age, I think it's more of the environment than the kid just deciding to be bratty.

Well, one thing I'm aware of is even in natural families— again, I, I expect that your parents are superb about loving and respecting both of you equally, but I've seen even in natural families where one kid gets more attention than the others, and, or, and a kid who gets less attention sometimes you know, acts out a little bit. Does that make sense as to why simply one kid getting more attention could lead another kid to be resentful and kind of do things?

Absolutely. Um, and this isn't like, or it's not a very big case because the families I surround, or I am surrounded with, tend to be great. But I've seen things like that happen in like, just for example, jiu-jitsu circles. Like the oldest child will be like, oh, or they'll travel to all the competitions and get all the privates and all the good classes. And, uh, the, the younger sibling tends to get ignored because the older sibling is doing very well in jiu-jitsu or whatever their sport. And I don't know if that always makes them act out, but usually they get like neglected a little bit, which isn't great.

Yeah. No, I, I feel like people are— I'm very much of the camp that I think reading novels helps one understand the world, the psychology of human beings better. Does that seem fair that even just thinking about Jane's behavior and the dynamic in a way gives us additional insight into human beings a little bit?

Yeah, absolutely. It's told by lots of different people.

Yeah. One other thing I want to check up on and then I'll let you go for the day is, you know, with Jane Austen, obviously class, who gets to, you know, marry up versus fall into the bottom. Oliver Twist, parents die. He's stuck in the bottom. Oh, it turns out, you know, he inherits and is, you know, everything turns out okay. Any thoughts on this version of, and again, it would seem from these authors that sort of an obsession with class status is a high stakes and real issue. Any particular spins on this version in Jane Eyre after reading both Jane Austen and Dickens? Seem similar, different? What are your— what's your take?

I feel like right now it could be a mix of both. Like, maybe there's like the class thing with Austen involved. Like, I remember them saying, uh, or talking about Jane's poor relatives versus the stepmother's relative wealth. Um, and then mixed with the fact that she's an orphan, has no parents, and is going off to a new place. So I think it could be similar to both, but as for the outcome, I don't really know. I have to read more.

Well, I would say this is actually a good reason to have read Jane Austen first and then Dickens next, is you have some comparisons in terms of, well, with Dickens you saw dramatically how bad it can get, you know, and then with Jane Austen, you know, turns out things turned out fine in the end with her two protagonists.

Cool.

Anything else for now?

Uh, no, that's it.

All right, have a wonderful time in Hawaii. See you next time.

Bye-bye. Thank you.

You're welcome.