Status Systems and Virtue Cultures in Jiu-Jitsu and The Socratic Experience

Okay.

Um, so yeah, uh, I was gonna summarize, you know, we read the, um, the first part of this review of Judith Rich Harris' No Two Alike, and then today, for today, we read the second part. Um, do you wanna summarize for our audiences kind of where we are in this?

Yeah. So, um, my impression of it was that in the beginning of the article, it kind of went over and summarized the 3 groups that we talked about last week, which was the relationship group, socialization group, and then status. Um, it kind of went through that again, and then at the end, the general idea that I got from it was that each individual human— and this article was about how each human like has different personalities and how we're all different, right? So I, I got that, um, we're like that because of these groups. Like, even though we might be around the same people or same peer groups, it was talking about peer pressure, and actually I want to talk about that after because I thought that was interesting. But I think that the reason we're all different is because we perceive these things differently. Like, we gather different information, like in our— like the big— I think, I don't know why it's called this, but they called it the lexicon of like all the data you've you've gotten for different humans over your life. That's all different, even for twins, which I thought was interesting. And then, yeah, they were talking about, I think in the socialization group area, they talked about peer pressure. And the general idea of that was that it's not really peer pressure, and they gave an example. It's like if a little girl was near a group of other little girls but wasn't allowed to like talk with them or play with them, she would automatically become more little girlish, they explained it, just because she's near them and wanted to be more like them. So it's not in, in all cases it might not be direct, it's just influence, I guess.

Got it. I'm going to dig into the peer thing but also the status thing. So just to be clear for audiences, we're talking about, um, Judith Rich Harris's analysis for why identical twins have often have different personalities. And you describe them as groups. She uses, and I prefer the term system. So there's a relationship system, how we understand, you know, each individual relationship, a socialization system, which as you say, is sort of like peer culture, but different and more, I would say, ambient and indirect. And then the status system. And I want to get to that a little bit. But you said you were interested in the peer thing or the socialization thing. Do you want to say what you were curious about on that one?

Oh yeah, I was interesting— or interested because when I read it, I recalled that last week we talked a little bit about peer pressure and just like the influence of peer groups. And I thought that the example that they gave was really interesting because I could sort of relate to that. In a little, um, in a way. It's not— it hasn't really happened recently, but I can recall that, um, when I was younger, especially when I was in like public school, I would be around like different kids and I would want to act like them because they seemed cool, or with regards to the status or hierarchy system, I wanted to be in at their level. Oh, and then another thing I forgot to mention was that in the article when they were talking about the status system, um, he gave a point that each human has like an instinct to climb higher on the social ladder, the hierarchy. Um, and that's interesting because I can relate to that too.

Yeah, I know. And one of the reasons why I think it's appropriate to see the, the socialization system is more indirect— peer pressure implies that peers are actively putting pressure on us, which sometimes happens— but I think the socialization system, as you point out, is much more general. Just being around other people, especially peers, you just sort of naturally begin, even without any pressure at all. That is, even if they don't put any pressure, there's a propensity, I think, for people to start to act the way that your peers do. And it sounds like, yeah, even though you're a very independent person, you've kind of experienced that just ambient. Ambient is just kind of, it's in the air, it's around us sort of thing. And so that's why I say it's different from necessarily pressure. But yeah, I want to dig into the status system because that was most of what this article was about. First, how do you understand the status system and how does it relate to your own life?

I think the biggest thing— I might have already said it— but the biggest thing that I got from it was that as— so first of all, we're born and then we grow up a little bit. We have like— we collect data on other people and what they think of us. And those two kind of go together and realizing and shaping like a hierarchy, kind of like maybe in a school, like maybe the older kids would be at the top and then the younger kids would be at the bottom. That's just a really easy example. Um, and then they were talking about how each human has a desire and instinct to want to climb higher on the ladder, hang out with the cooler kids. And I feel like especially like in schools, just as an easy example, everyone can kind of relate with that. Even me, even though I'm not in school. And you can, you can see it in everyone for sure. But that was the main idea.

And then with respect to— because in some ways your primary social group might be the jiu-jitsu thing, and there it's tricky because I think most of the people are older— would you say that status is primarily age? Is it primarily kind of success? Is it primarily training ethos? What gives people status within the jiu-jitsu wrestling world you inhabit?

Um, if I'm just gonna use jiu-jitsu as an example because I'm more into it for now, um, not talking about kids, it's a little difficult because it's not like, oh, they're the oldest and like they win the most, so they're obviously like the top of the chain, right? Um, it's not really like that, um, in my environment. It's more like who is the best partner and who is the nicest and who wants to interact with everybody. And everyone's kind of like that. I mean, if we're talking about me, I mean, maybe I have some sort of instinct or desire to climb the ladder, but it's not like, oh, I want to be at the top because I'm just a kid, right? And I'm surrounded by adults, so it's not as direct in me right now in that environment. But I remember I said that I could relate to that. And in this case, a little bit, because when I started hanging out and training with the adults, I didn't want to just be the kid who doesn't talk to anyone. I wanted to like make friends and be in a group. And that was instinct, even though I didn't know it. So I started hanging out with the women and the girls, right? Um, and that's kind of where I am right now.

But you know, something you said early on, which I think is important, is I think that in different groups there are different ways to achieve status. And I think the— I really like the fact that you said in your jiu-jitsu group, part of it is being nice and being a good partner, presumably sparring partner, but also just a decent person. Is Is that accurate?

Yeah, that's for sure.

Because, you know, there are groups where it's you get status by being a jerk. Have you seen the famous TV show Cobra Kai?

I watched the first couple episodes, but not anything else.

Got it. But even from that, you probably got that one group gets status in one way and the other groups get status in another way. So even within the world of martial arts, you could have different standards for how to achieve status. Status. Um, and yeah, I, I think that— Will, Will, just because you've spent time at TSC, how would you say people achieve status at TSC? Or is there no status at TSC?

There's a little bit of status, but, um, I think it depends on how you see it. Um, the first thing that came to my mind was like the top would be the most interactive social, uh, nice and mature kids. And then the bottom would be the ones that just don't participate at all. Um, there might be other ways to interpret that, but that's just what I thought of. And I think you could see it because there are kids who like interact more and want to be friends with others, and then there are some kids who just like are there and might still be learning but not learning the Socratic way, I guess.

No, that, that resonates. And I would, uh, want to distinguish I could imagine being social, just like being warm and friendly and engaging, reaching out to people. And I could also imagine in the Socratic experience context, being social and being intellectual, that is engaging in the Socratic dialogues, being a leader in most, almost every class. Would you say the status is more strictly to being social or social and intellectual in class or both?

Both. But the reason I thought of social and not intellectual is because I was thinking of like interactions between students and how another student would feel. But yes, being intellectual and like having a part in the actual discussions definitely makes a difference.

Got it. And is it fair to say that in jiu-jitsu, you mentioned sparring, so you can just be a nice person, not being a jerk at jiu-jitsu, just like you could be a nice person, not be a jerk at the Socratic Experience. But it sounds like you know, being a sparring partner? Well, first, not being there, what does it mean to be a good sparring partner? How do you— how does one be a good sparring partner?

That depends on the pair, but if it's like, even like you spar to go really hard and to get better, then being a good sparring partner in that case would mean going really hard and trying your best while also not hurting the other person and being a dirty fighter. Um, but in a different instance, it would be maybe, oh, you're bigger and better and you're going with a smaller and not as good kid, then being a good partner would mean adjusting and not going super hard and crazy and hurting them. Um, and then being a good partner overall means taking, um, those two components plus lots of other different cases and making sure you're a good partner in every single way. And that might not be the case for everyone, but trying to do that as well as you can makes you a good partner, I think.

No, that makes sense. And so it sounds like there are kind of two things. One is doing your best, but also improving the other person, that is sparring in such a way that it doesn't hurt the other person, helps them develop. Is that a good summary?

Yes, for sure.

In which case I would say, I wonder if there's a similarity in that the Socratic experience, part of gaining status is both being an active, socially active intellectually, but also is it fair to say one should be active intellectually without being a jerk at the Socratic experience?

Yes, for sure. If you were active intellectually but were also mean and not nice and being a jerk and not being respectful to your, to your other classmates, then in my opinion, you would not be high on the social ladder because you wouldn't be— or the other kids wouldn't want to hang around, around you. You'd be like, even though you'd be participating, you wouldn't be high, in, in my opinion.

But so, um, what I'm, what I'm inclined to say, and see how this lands for you, is that, um, in both your jiu-jitsu club and the Socratic experience, in a certain sense, one gains status by being more virtuous. And by virtuous, I mean, you know, being excellent at jiu-jitsu, including helping others become more excellent at jiu-jitsu. And in the Socratic experience, being more intellectually active and helping others be more intellectually active. Is that a fair analogy?

Yes, but there are also cases like your classic high school or school bully where like they might be really mean, but they're also technically at the top of the chain. So I just never been in that sort of situation because I don't know, but maybe I will be someday.

Well, and again, this is why I think it's important to create cultures. I mean, in your jiu-jitsu club, is anybody high status even though they're a bully, or the status hierarchy is such that if you're a bully in your jiu-jitsu club, you're— no matter how good you are, you're still not high status, or would you—

You're talking about just kids? Yeah. There haven't been any, like, really, really mean, actually, like, school bullies that I've encountered. I think that's just because that jiu-jitsu seems to just attract relatively good people. So, but even if there was, nobody would want to train with them. Nobody would like them. Except for like maybe like one of their friends or whatever. Um, and since we have really good professors and coaches, they would help shut down the situation too, I think.

Well, agreed. And I would say, I would actually say that both your jujitsu club and the Socratic Experience, if somebody was a persistent bully and continued to be a bully, um, after coaching and mentoring and so forth, they would get kicked out at both places. Um, and thus the, the, the adults in the room, the leaders, uh, the educators do not allow, no matter how excellent they are at the thing, jiu-jitsu or intellectual activity, that there are cultures where we do not allow bullies. Does that sound accurate?

Yes.

Okay.

Sure.

In which case, lots more to explore here, but I've got to go. Have a wonderful day and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Yes, see you next week. Bye.