The Declaration of Independence

So, are you familiar with the Declaration of Independence?

I am.

What do you know about it?

I know that it's a document that declared America's independence from British Empire.

Pretty good. And, um, have you ever read it?

I have read it.

You have? Um, very cool. Where did— where and when did you read it?

Um, every year, um, or not every year, but the most recent years, um, on 4th of July, we— there's an audiobook, not really audiobook, a recording of somebody reading it on Spotify. Um, so we listen to it every once in a while.

Wow. Well, so you're very familiar with it then. I thought we'd look at, uh, the first part of it. We don't have time to read all of it, but, um Maybe since you're bouncing, I'll read it. When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to separation. To the separation. So what does that mean?

Um, it means that— I think I've— I mean, before I've deciphered it as stating that we have the right to separate ourselves from another government, maybe organization. Um, but I remember when I read it the first time, um, in the part that I thought It becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with one another, or with another. It made me think of not quite colonism or America being a colony, more like an ally, but that's not the case. So I'm not sure, but I think it makes sense.

Okay. So there are all kinds of things you said that I'm not completely clear about. Maybe let's just check, uh, when it's— it's one— it is one long— whoops. Oh, you still there?

Yes, can you hear me?

I can, but I lost you visually. There you go. Um, yeah, it's one long sentence, and, um, looking for a way to break it down. It becomes necessary when in the course of human events— that seems fairly clear. It becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another. How do you interpret that?

When in the course of human events, when in life it becomes necessary, and maybe one— when it says one people to dissolve the political bands, I kind of think of not— or nation dissolving with government. Um, I'm not sure if that exactly matches the situation, but I think it does. Um, and then, to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them. Uh, it kind of makes me think of the rights that we have or assumed from it says nature and nature's God. Um, I find that a little confusing. I don't, I don't think I understand it fully.

Fair enough. Um, I think it might be helpful. What do you think? What does it mean? What did it mean for the US to declare independence from Britain?

It meant for us, or for America, to be its own country and not under the rule of the British Crown and the Empire. It's independent, it's free, and it can make— it could be allies with other countries. It can have its own government and constitution. I guess just freedom from on the quote opposing tyranny, I think.

Got it. So when it says, um, to dissolve the political bands, uh, does— would you say that the dissolving the political bands has to do with, um, creating a separate government, or no longer being part— maybe it's more precise to say no longer being governed by the British?

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a better way of saying it.

And then what confuses you is the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. Um, what do you think that means?

I think— I mean, what I'm getting is that I mean, separate equal station. I think they're talking about maybe just rights that they've, that they have from, quote, nature, and of nature is God, but I'm not sure.

Got it. Station in this sense, I think, is, uh, in some ways the position, the, the separate and equal position towards laws of nature and of nature's gods— nature's God— entitle them? Um, does it make sense that a nation would have a position vis-à-vis the law of nature?

Well, I mean, I think so. Nation— I mean, a nation comes from nature, I guess, the people and the land, but Um, I guess the part that confuses me is, uh, the laws, or I guess I don't know what they mean by laws, like rights or things that they have to abide by, just some nature's God. I'm not sure.

Ah, the laws of nature, and you want to translate that as rights. Um, got it. Okay, so laws of nature Well, do you think outside of a political context, does nature have laws? Are there laws of nature?

I mean, I think, I think there should be. Maybe an example is, I don't know, life eats life.

Okay, and then why do you think what's referring to nature is God?

Maybe because, I mean, people believe in God and That might be the base of a nation. Religion. Okay.

The separate and equal station— by station, I'm translating that as position— to which the laws of— I guess the question is, why would the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them to a separate and equal position? Does that make any sense?

I think so. I think entitle them, like entitled laws or rights. I think that's kind of what made me think of rights, but I don't know if that fits this situation. Um, to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them. Entitling them a God or laws?

It sounds like the laws, the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them to be separate and equal. And I guess I'm wondering, Sue, you keep wanting to put rights in there, and I guess I'm not quite seeing rights in there. Does that— do you see rights somewhere, or do you think you're inferring that because you know somehow it's about rights?

I suppose I am inferring that.

Okay. Well, just because the next part is exciting and we don't have a lot of time, even though we haven't gotten perfect clarity on that first paragraph, I want to jump into the next one because this is very famous. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. There are your rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights— there are your rights again— governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. But whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, It is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and institute new government laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness. It's a long sentence, but what do you get out of that one?

Um, well, I— maybe I wasn't totally inferring rights there. I mean, the word rights does pop up, but that's not the whole point. Um, uh, something that comes to mind is, um, or obviously, all men are created equal, um, blah blah blah, they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. By Creator, do they mean like a God or a religion or a government maybe?

I would say a God. They're very much Um, there were— yeah, they were mostly all believers in God.

Got it. Um, and then that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. Um, rights, government. I think— I mean, it does— it states that they'd like their own government to be independent. You have your own government, right? Um, So I think this paragraph is saying, um, first of all, that all men are created equal, all men should have their own rights, um, and then down a little, a little down, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, I think That's kind of meaning that the government is, uh, or it's the government's not doing what it's supposed to be doing. The government's not doing what it's there for, um, so it quote becomes destructive, um, and then it is again the right of the people to alter or abolish it, meaning I guess in this case be independent from the destructive government and creating your own, institute new government. Yeah, it's a little— I think it's— to me it's a little confusing, but I think that's what I'm getting from it.

Okay. Um, is it funny that you've listened to this many times but not yet quite gotten this level of clarity before?

We don't listen, or we listen— we listen to it um, not super, super often. So it's the wording and stuff is a little new, but I think I understand, um, the motive of it.

Okay. Um, you know, just on the notion that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, do you think it is self-evident that all men are created equal, or all humans?

Well, especially, especially in the modern age, I think it I mean, to me it was, um, I mean, maybe not— I think obvious is too harsh of a word, maybe not obvious, but, um, all men should be and are created equal. Um, honestly, just me, I think me growing up in the time that I have, um, it's kind of hard for me to see that people wouldn't see it like that. But I think it is.

But you know that in the past people were not, people were not believed to be equal.

Yes.

So this, a big deal was made out of this preamble to the Declaration of Independence. And among these rights, so certain unalienable rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Do those seem like pretty important rights?

Yes.

Yeah, kind of hard to—

I think so.

And, and of course, this was written by Thomas Jefferson. Do you know who Thomas Jefferson was?

Yes.

And he, other people, other of the founding fathers put in, had input into it, but he wrote the first draft. And of course he wants this to be compelling. And so part of making it compelling is Um, who's going to disagree with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Um, and it seems like you got, uh, these rights— governments are instituted among men. Well, actually, does it make sense that the, the purpose of government is to secure these rights?

I think it makes sense. Um, of course, it's stating here that the government that they're under, the British Empire, is being destructive, so it's not protecting those rights. Um, and I know that other governments in the past don't uphold those rights as well. So it could be just a view of government, but yes, I do think that's what they're saying here.

Or maybe an ideal, or maybe that's what government should do, something like that.

Right.

Got it.

Yes.

Because of course you're right, but that's the whole point there. Leaving because of their belief was the British government was destructive of these ends. Well, let's just go to the end because I think you got most of this and then petered out a little bit to the end. So it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness. What does that say?

Um, the government should, um, be founded on principles. Um, I'm assuming part of those principles are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which I think is good. Um, and organizing its powers in such form, um, most likely to affect their safety and happiness. I think basically using the government's power to protect and uphold the rights and the people.

Do you have any idea why up in the first part it said life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and down at the end it says safety and happiness?

Um, I'm not sure. Maybe safety and life and liberty go together.

That would make sense. That would make sense. I'm always curious when a, when a writer changes how they express things. And maybe he intends to be focusing on something different, but I think it's more likely that he's maybe rephrasing it in a different way. But with that, we've kind of kept you long enough. So welcome to the first part of the Declaration of Independence. And now when you listen to it, you'll have a sense for just how complex it is. So Uh, thanks for reading with me and have a wonderful day at the beach.

Okay, thank you, Michael. You too. You're welcome.

Bye-bye.

Bye.