The idea of rules in software, classrooms, laws, jiu-jitsu competitions, etc.

Oh, that's right. How far into the Optimist are you? Alchemist, are you?

I'd say about halfway. Yeah.

Okay.

90 something.

Good. And, um, how is STEM class going?

Going really good. I think, um, I'm into STEM and math a lot more now that I'm in that class, and I think I'm progressing more.

Good. Um, and your novel, how's your novel?

It's going really good. Um, I met with my editor Stella. I didn't for a few days because I was under the weather and she's quite old. I didn't want to spread. Um, and we did the first 5 chapters, so I'm fixing the edits right now. And then on Monday or later today, I'm gonna go down again.

Excellent. So I was— well, and finally, how is Harvard CS50?

It's going really good. As well, Aki helped me with the rest of the cache code. And it makes a bit more sense now, but not in a way that I would have guessed. So now I'm going to move on to the next chapter.

Is this lesson 2 or lesson 1 you're going to be into now?

Lesson 2. Lesson 2.

Excellent. So I was thinking about rules. What do you think? What's a rule?

I think a rule is something set that you'd ideally have to follow in order to do something.

Okay. And when you say ideally have to follow, does that mean in some situations you have choices to whether or not to follow a rule?

Yes.

And why, why do you think in some domains we have rules? What's the advantage of having rules?

I think it keeps order in society, um, and even on the smaller level, um, order again. But I think it also just sort of sets a standard, um, and yeah, that's the reason.

What's a situation in which we do not follow rules?

I think that depends on the rule, but this is a simple example. But if a rule told you to always eat ice cream every day, you wouldn't follow the rule because you would make your own decision not to eat ice cream every day because that might not be very good. That's simple, but I think A rule that is silly and doesn't make sense to your, um, rights and ambitions and, um, virtues, I think, is one that maybe you should think to not follow.

So it sounds like you're saying that as individuals, sometimes we choose not to follow rules, and sometimes for good reasons we choose not to follow rules. Is that correct?

Yes.

So how can we determine when we should follow rules and when we should not follow rules?

Um, I think we should follow rules if it benefits ourselves, um, our society and where we live and how we live and how we act. I think you shouldn't follow a rule if it does the opposite or it opposes your virtues.

Okay.

Maybe that's the wrong word, but something like that.

Okay. So for now, I'll put those into two kind of categories. One is we should follow rules if in some sense it is in our own interest, including our own long-term interest with respect to our virtues and so forth. And we should follow rules if it's in society's best interest. And I guess the— they're both complications in both cases, but how can we know if following a rule is in society's best interest or not?

I think if the rule is corrupt and/or is biased, I think in most cases that certainly wouldn't Oh, I think that's, that's the first one that comes to mind.

How do we know if a rule is corrupt or biased?

If, to be honest, I'm not sure. Um, yeah, I don't know.

These are very hard questions for sure. Um, Is it fair to say that when you are programming, that code follows rules?

Yes.

And is it fair to say that when you're doing math, that math follows rules?

I think so.

How about grammar? Would you say the English grammar in the English language follows rules?

Yes.

How about laws like in the United States? Are those rules?

I think they are sort of rules. I'm not quite sure what the difference is at this point, if there is.

How about in your classroom? Are there rules in your classroom?

I know we do have some regulations that you should follow, and I know a lot of classes do this. When I was in school, we had this chart that everyone would sign. Um, in that case, it was be mindful, you know, don't be rude to others, stay on topic, um, make sure you're learning as best as possible and put all your focus into it.

Is there a difference between the rules in coding on the one hand and the rules in a classroom on the other, or, um, are they— is it even fair to call them both rules? Because are they mostly similar or mostly different?

I think I wouldn't call them either one. They're very different but similar in different ways. Um, I think one of the ways that they're different that came to mind is that I think in code, the computer would give you an error if you have the syntax wrong. There's no getting around that. But in a classroom where it's humans and not a computer, I mean, there's ways to get around rules. It's not so compact. Like, I could— or I think especially online, but also in classrooms too. Like, I feel like since it's not— because like a computer won't budge if you don't— if you keep doing things over and over again the wrong way. But I feel like if you're with a teacher, a human, they might not be able to do that or act like a computer in that way.

How about rules on either jiu-jitsu or wrestling? I assume there are rules in both jiu-jitsu and wrestling.

Yes.

Are those more like computer rules or more like classroom rules?

Um, I feel like They have similarities to both. I think when you're competing and then when you're training, it's a different question. I think when you're competing— and I'm just going to speak for jiu-jitsu here because I know more about that— and when you're competing, I think it's more like a computer where someone— I mean, in both sports you have a ref watching over you, but in jiu-jitsu there's, um I mean, I think it's more in a computer in the way that it's hard to get around, you know, the rules of, say, no illegal moves. It's— I don't know if it's possible to get an illegal move around a ref that's not biased. And I assume that if the refs were biased, then they wouldn't allow the illegal move anyways. But, and I feel like same in wrestling, but I don't have too much experience in that.

Got it. So would you say in jiu-jitsu, for the most part, the rules are enforced consistently and fairly?

For the most part.

And does the— does that— no, would you say that in the classroom, rules are way more flexible than in jiu-jitsu enforcement?

I see. So, but there are different circumstances.

Um, why do you think— do you think it's good to have strict enforcement of rules and objective enforcement, or is it good to have flexibility?

I think it depends on the rule. I think overall I would choose flexibility because, I mean, the rules may not be good rules.

Well, obviously, I expect you see how the, the analysis, study and analysis of rules is a really big topic. And we're not going to solve all of this today. I thought it might be interesting for you to spend a little bit of time thinking about rules in different environments. And part of that is code is sort of the most rigid place rules, because you're right, the code will not let you— kind of zero flexibility rules. And so it's interesting. Well, zero flexibility, would you say in some sense the way the code enforces its own rules is also fair, objective, and unbiased?

I think the computer is unbiased because what— I mean, you're following a set of rules that make that makes the computer do something. It's not like it can change those rules automatically. Thankfully, for now, computers don't have a mind of their own. Um, yeah, I think, I think it works like that.

Yeah, I think it's interesting to compare the world of rules and rule following in computers with the human world, um, and, and think about, uh, you say you like more flexible rule environments, and I would say I do too, for sure. And, you know, there are interesting cases where more rigid rules— it sounds like you appreciate the referees in jiu-jitsu because they're objective and fair, whereas if they were too flexible, then do you think they might be more biased? Does flexibility bring bias?

I think it could definitely bring bias. Especially if you have a personal connection to somebody.

Yeah, again, we're not going to solve all these problems today, but I just wanted to get you thinking about rules in these different domains. And in the future, we'll read ever more complex— you can see all sorts of aspects of human existence as relating to rules and the objectivity and fairness or bias of different rule sets, flexibility, In the whole realm of law, law is endlessly complicated. And so at different levels of human reality, we've got a lot of rules going on, and then also a flexibility around the rules. But with that, I will wish you a wonderful day in the wrestling competition. So I hope you do well and enjoy it. Okay.

Thank you, Michael.

All right. Take care. Bye-bye.