John Ellis 7

We've all been influenced and inspired by our heroes in the trade. Some of them are well-known industry experts. Some are local professionals who may only be known in their communities. All of them share a passion for shaping people into the tradesmen and women that they should be. This show celebrates those who have taken the time to help us be better at our jobs and sometimes for our families. This is the HVAC Mentors Podcast.

Podcast. All right, friends and HVAC family, welcome. We are here with our very own John Ellis, IAQ expert, sales and customer service instructor. Pretty much if it's HVAC related, he can teach it to you. And of course, most important title I think he holds— well, maybe second most important to father and husband— Is friend to many of us. John, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

So you know, John, the the gist here of this HVAC Mentors podcast is of course, you know, honor those and who teach us and help us be better at our trade, but then also kind of learn a little bit more. About you. So, you know, so often we have teachers, people we look up to, but we don't really know their backstory. So tell us a little bit to get started about you and how you got started.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity, and I'll keep this to the elevator version. So I've had an illustrious career in HVAC. 43 going on 44 years. That's a long time. I've seen it done a whole bunch of different ways. I got my start in HVAC stocking shelves and sweeping floors and doing UPS at a supply house. That is about as entry-level as you get. And a friend of mine said, hey, John, I got this job. Come on, come on. And so he got me the job. I did that for about a year, which was kind of cool because I got to understand and learn what the parts were. I didn't understand what they Did, but I knew what the names of home warmers were, for whatever that's worth. He got picked up by a company and it wasn't a month or so later, he's like, John, we need help. Come on over. So, so I did. And that's how I got— I jumped in, you know, both feet up to my neck and just OJT, on-the-job training at first. And so I crawled under houses and changed B60 gas valves on floor furnaces. And it's like, that was how I got started in changing, you know, thermocouples or pilot generators. And then, uh, we got to work on, uh, on, uh, window units. And then I graduated into evaporative cooling. And just like each stepping stone was just the building blocks of experience and hands-on and learning some bad habits, and then later on learning some better habits. And then of course embracing training. And so I owned a business in California, and it was called SoCal Air Dynamics. But the cool thing was it didn't say SoCal Air Dynamics Heating and Air Conditioning. It said SoCal Air Dynamics Performance Contracting. So working for several different companies coming up, I was in— I was in the Sheet Metal Workers Union. I was in the Pipefitters Union. I was in the Engineers and Operators Union. I was a stationary operating engineer at UCLA, which is Cogen. And so each step was just learning and learning and learning. You know, I was, I was involved in HVAC during the building boom, 2007, 2008 in California, where we were doing 300 or 400 houses at a time. And that was crazy. And I learned production. It's like, go, go, go. And boy, if I knew then what I knew now, I would know what a terrible job we were doing. Because it's just production. Low bid got the job and it's just go, go, go. We go up one side of the street, down around the corner, and people are moving in the first house. I mean, it was really high production. And then I got involved with commercial. So I was doing schools, prisons, hospitals, water treatment plants, hotels, you know, big, big construction. I was running ductwork as big as my office here. And, and so that was just, you know, more building blocks on learning. And then I was working for a company and I went to the owners and this is a show about mentors and Phil Brown was his name and he's a salty old dog. And he had a mouth like a sailor, but he treated us really well. And he taught me a whole lot about HVAC, some stuff on the business side too. And then I went to him and his wife and I said, hey, you know what? There's a part of this industry. That were missing, and I said, "Here's here's what I think," and I kind of drew out a little business plan on a napkin, and they're like, "John, we believe in you," and they invested on getting me started. And then that started my company with SoCal Aerodynamics. Now within that company, I started taking all kinds of training, any kind of training there was. I did Nate training. I did NCI training. I was an air balance technician. I would commission commercial kitchen exhaust. I was a LEED building commissioner, commercial system performance, an economizer specialist. But those were all just building blocks for my career. I was a QII inspector, which meant as a HERS Rater, I would go out and inspect companies doing insulation during construction and remodeling. And then I became a level 1 thermographer and an IAQ, and it just kept going and going and going. And so that would— that's been amazing. I first, uh, Phil being one of my very first mentors, once I got started with NCI, I've been working in and around NCI for the last 18 years. Rob Falk was another one, bless his heart. He's no longer with us. Just poured into me. And so having those mentors— another one was Scott Johnson. He was a building science guy, and he's like, John, come along with me, we're gonna go fix houses, and took me under his wing. And this is a gentleman that was writing standards. He was a proctor, he was a super proctor, and really taught me building science. That's And I work with some of the top fielding sciences and scientists in California. So that, that was amazing. And then, uh, another gentleman, uh, David Holt, who was with NCI, he saw something, took me under his wing and started teaching me kind of more like kind of what I'm doing now. Taught me the importance of having multiple streams of income and how to be out there. And I got my first taste of teaching. Through NCI at one of their conferences. They're like, yeah, John, come in and go ahead and present. And then I co-presented and then I was doing more. So again, these are just building blocks that you just build and build and build. Then I've had other mentors that some are with us still, some are not. My associate Gene Sperling was a respiratory pharmacist by trade. He really Helped me understand the medical side of building science and indoor air quality. And then, as I was building and building and building, I had an opportunity to bid on a really high-profile indoor air quality job. You know, I often, in my sales classes, you know, guys are like, oh, hey, I did a— I did a, you know, $1.4 million in sales this year. And I'm like, dude, that is so awesome. I sold one job for $1.4 million. And so then you talk, and you talk about doing things at different levels. When you, when you're at that level, I had to go in front of a panel of 5 people and explain to them why I thought I was the one that they should put $1.4 million in my bank account and why not my competitors. That is a whole different level. And that came with knowledge, expertise, and experience, and just all those building blocks is all Those mentors teaching me and pouring into me to give me the confidence to be able to do something like that. I won the con, like I beat United Technologies for the job. They were deemed technologically unable to do the project. So think about that. United Technologies was technologically unable to do the, and we all know who United Technologies is, correct? That is, that's Carrier. And so that was fun and it was, it was really cool. So, and so fast forward, I, I, uh, I sold my company in California and, uh, kind of semi-retired. I moved, uh, here to wonderful mountains in New Mexico and then had some wonderful, wonderful opportunities present themselves. And of course they weren't just given to me. I had to go get them. And so one of those opportunities is I teach indoor air quality for Daikin Amana Goodman. When they approached me, they said they wanted to create curriculum for the industry. And I said, I am absolutely your guy. And but I do not want to stand in front of a group of people and sell products because that's what everybody else does. And so, you know, Daikin is the largest HVAC manufacturer right now on the planet and they're making some big moves. It's been amazing. Took me a year to write the curriculum and then go through several Several rounds of editing, and then when just when we thought we were done, it's like, well, we need to take this through legal. And I'm like, really? I've never done that before.

Little scary.

That was that was something else. And and so we we survived that, if you will. It's it's been I've been doing that about six years with Daikin. I do it all over the United States. I've been to Canada. I'll be going to Canada again in March to Montreal. to teach indoor air quality again. I've got several classes lined up right now. And so that has been amazing. It's been well received and people are putting into action the stuff that they learned in my class. So real proud and excited about that. Then I had another opportunity to start working with a company called The New Flat Rate. And what that is, is built-for-you menu pricing. We are not a pricing company. We are a software and process development company. I had known the owner, Rodney, for many years through NCI. We actually co-presented together many, many years ago on indoor air quality. He's got a passion for that. Ran into him at a conference. I said, hey, I saw something on LinkedIn, you guys are hiring. He's like, John, you'd be perfect. Gotta talk to my son. I've known Rodney for, you know, 20-some-odd years. I never met his son. And so his son, Matt and Danielle, run the new Flat Rate. I had a meeting with him and they're like, John, you're perfect. Let's get started. And so what that allows me to do is go into the field and coach and mentor technicians, both some technical, but on the sales side and go do ride-alongs and get in the truck and ride around and do that kind of stuff with them. And it's like, it's another building block, you know? And, and, um, that really helped me hone my skills in sales from a process kind of point of view. And so that's been amazing. I've been doing that now for 5 years, I think, off and on. I'm contracted out. I'm not a full-time employee, but that's been great. And then I own a consulting business called Dynamic Air Consulting. And so what that allows me to do is go in the field, work with clients all over the United States, and bring contractors in the field and coach and train them how to use indoor air quality testing equipment and the building science. equipment and how to gather data, look at the data, process the data, and create a scope of work that their clients will buy. One of the things I got to do with The New Flat Rate is create the very first and only IEQ and building science pricing module within the app. And so that's been great. So, uh, working with clients, I had a, I had a client in Houston, Texas, and they, they took my IEQ class. They're also a member of The New Flat Rate. They said, John, we got this high-profile job, we'd like you to come out. So they gave They gave the client my consulting fee. They said, "Let's do it." I went out. We worked with them. They they got to use my tools. We went through the whole job, sat down with the client. They they wanted to observe me on how I have that conversation and explain complex science that's going on their house with the IAQ stuff, and explain it in terms that they can understand. And then at the end of that conversation, I told the client, "Hey, look, you know what? This is not my marketplace. These guys will get you a bid, and I think this is going to get you to where you need to go." So the daughter had what's called an iron lung, and it's a prosthetic she uses to compress her lungs and help her breathe. So this is like the real deal. This is like the real deal. And so 2 weeks later, they called me up. They said, John, we submitted our bid and sold the job, $60,000.

And they were— Wow.

No new equipment. The equipment was only 3 years old. But the installing contractor did a really bad job. So there were several things we did. We added dehumidification, ventilation, high-grade filtration, upgraded controls, reducted everything, cleaned everything, did some air sealing. And so that's really rewarding when you can coach and mentor a company or guys like that, and then they take what you teach them and go out, put it to work, and it's successful. To me, that's gratifying. Yeah. And so one of the other things I get to do for the last 2 years, I worked with the engineers over at Dust Free, and I took a concept for a product to them. And the owner said, hey, John, we like this. Let's, let's do it. And so we worked 2 years. And so I just released my Dust Free 16 surgical-grade air filtration for residential. What I like to say is we didn't invent the mousetrap because we V-cell, V-configuration filtration is nothing new. I just like to say we built the best mousetrap. And so that is available through TruTech Tools. Guys are using it and with great success. And so that has been very rewarding. And then I'm back in, in the lab with the engineers and working on my next product. So we're excited about that. And we're hoping Hopefully a year. We'll hope to get it out quicker than we did the other one because the engineers had several projects they were working on at once.

So are we hoping to maybe be able to maybe be able to announce the new product like pre-AHR 2026?

I think so.

Yeah, that would be awesome.

Yeah. So there you go. That's, uh, that's the elevator version.

That's John Ellis. Yeah. So You know, you keep talking about building blocks and I love that analogy because, you know, most people in their careers can't point to one particular person or one particular experience. I mean, we are all a conglomeration of the different people that have spoken into our lives and guided us and different experiences. And we are both nature and nurture. Is there anything looking back that, you know, you wish you'd have done better, you know, or a particular experience that you've had that, you know, like, man, I would not be here if it wasn't for that. Is there anything like that that you can look, looking back?

Well, I think we all have those pivotal moments to look back at. And so I'm going to be very vulnerable here. And looking back, my sobriety was one of those pivotal moments because the John Ellis that is here talking to you today is not the same John Ellis 24 years ago. I had my bout with addiction, both drugs, alcohol, and then it, um, although I, I, you know, in your addiction, you think you're fine and, oh, I'm a functional drug addict and everything's peaches and cream until—

There's no such thing really, is there?

Well, until you're sleeping in a cardboard box behind a grocery store. And then it's like, that's a wake-up call. And, uh, I, um, I don't wish, uh, addiction on anybody. But I'm here to tell you there is light on the other side. And so I think my sobriety was pivotal. My giving my life to Christ was another pivotal moment. And then just the people that have stepped into my life, both professionally and personally, were all pivotal in helping bring the good John Ellis to bear. fruit into light, if that makes sense.

No, absolutely. I think, you know, when we look back at our lives and, you know, I know you have a year or two on me, but I do think that in reflecting, you know, there's, there's certainly, there's good, there's the potential for good and the potential for bad within all of us, I think. And the more we choose the good, you know, I think the better. So that, that good John Ellis was always in there. Yeah, I would say it's just those, those, you know, few— those significant people and experiences helped to bring the good John Ellis out. Although I will say, John Ellis the rock star of the '80s, he's been cool, at least, you know, from the YouTube videos that I saw.

Well, yeah. And so we've talked about my professional journey. So there's been some, some pretty cool things in my Personal journey as well. You know, in high school, you know, in 10th grade, I started riding a skateboard. And then I was inseparable from my skateboard.

I had it— Right.

My books and my skateboard all through high school. I got so good that there came a chance to audition for the Pepsi skateboard team. I auditioned, and I made it. And 2 of my compadres made it. And we were the only 3 ever from the San Fernando Valley to ever make the team. Everybody else was beach people. And so I did that for 3 years. It was Skate Safe and Have a Pepsi Day. I did shows everywhere. I was in a movie called Xanadu. And not only did I skateboard, but I roller skated. So I was in a movie called Xanadu with Olivia Newton-John. And now I'm dating my age. So that was— that was the— I was young. And, you know, I'll tell you, I smoked weed because it was the cool thing to do. And then later on, I taught myself how to play a guitar. I, uh, was in several bands. I was in one band called Valentino that was really gaining some momentum. But that whole, that whole rock and roll world in Hollywood in the '80s is brutal and dog-eat-dog. And that was the start of my true addiction and all the debauchery that comes with it. And man, we were just having a great time. But little did we know, we were, we were, uh, feeding those demons, if you will. And so that was one thing I got to do, which was, you know, looking back, it was like pretty, pretty cool. Not something everybody gets to do. And then fast forward, I've been, been able to dabble in some acting and be in some shows and some movies. And I was in Breaking Bad. And, you know, that's—

Wait, you were in Breaking Bad?

Yeah, twice.

What?

Yeah.

Yep.

All right. Like as an extra or?

Yeah, yeah, just as a background person. But I did get a featured role in a movie called Apache Junction. I got to be in a gunfight with the main actors, I got blown up and I got to shoot. I'm dressed in period clothes and I'm in the credits and I got a name. I forgot the guy's name. I got to do some shows, I was in a few. Yeah, but, you know, mostly as background. I got some what they call featured background or core background where like I was townspeople in a movie called The Great American Sausage Heist.

Oh man, that could go wrong quick.

Oh, it's a dark comedy. But as core background, I was in like every— hey, there's John again. Hey, there's John in the church. Hey, there's John, you know, walking in a cowboy hat. Hey, and it's fun.

It's kind of fun because that hasn't actually stopped. For you, because now it's like every HVAC event, every every it seems like every podcast. Well, a lot of podcasts lately, and and just you know it's John Ellis is everywhere, and that's one of the cool things. Like I remember when I was teaching in trade school, I remember that was I think that was the first time I actually heard your name was my department director is. You know, very— he's a very big— he's very into IAQ. And he's like, we would be, you know, full throttle till noon when the students were there. And then at noon they would— or 1 o'clock, they would leave. And the rest of the day was pretty much up to us to self-educate, prepare for, you know, the next day, the next group of students. And he was like— or still is— just hardcore into IAQ, taught himself all the manuals and everything. And he would just be, yeah, John Ellis, John Ellis, John Ellis. And, you know, that's where I first— and then with HVAC School, the Facebook group, then I saw you around and everything. And then, then you're on all the other socials and in the social groups and the HVA Chicks Coalition, our show's sponsor and motivator. And it's just, you know, it's just cool that everybody loves John Ellis. And, you know, thank you. But yet As I've gotten to know you, just like so many of the rock stars in our trade, you're a regular dude. And, you know, you're willing to help anyone, willing to be a friend to anyone. And it's just, it's just super cool. It's like, you know, you could have been Mick Jagger, but you chose this path.

And I really appreciate that because I think it's because of my humble beginnings and my hardships that really keep me grounded on where I'm at. I don't know it all. But I know, I know something. And I'm in legacy mode right now. I'm 66 years old. I've already retired once, came out of retirement, and I'm in legacy mode. I have all this knowledge and experience that does absolutely nobody any good if I take it to the grave with me. And I, I am a constant student as well because technologies are emerging and different things. And so you always have to be astute. Learning and and exploring, and you know wanting to learn too. And one of my biggest kicks is just seeing the lights come on with somebody that you're you're coaching or mentoring or teaching to, and it's like hey they get it. And I remember coming up, and I I took I've got certificates and credentials from here to Illinois and back at. Because I was hungry and I was a sponge and I just wanted to learn, right? And, uh, and guys, they still have that passion. And I, I, it just, I get my biggest kick out of that.

I think it's so cool to know too that somebody has literally like been the lowest of low and then because of— and obviously nobody's done— you can't really pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's— we're all a product of our community and the people around us in part. But, but, you know, for anybody out there who's, you know, maybe down on themselves about decisions and about circumstances, they can look to your, you know, your own past and say, wow, you know, he— here's a guy who, you know, he made some bad decisions in life. And but now look, I mean, he's, he's an expert in the field. He knows You know his stuff. He's humble. He loves others, and he's still learning. And you know if if John and if Ty and if you know all these other people can do it, you know why can't I? I feel like that's really motivating to you know Johnny somebody out there in the trade, or maybe isn't even in the trade yet. You know that's just that's just so cool that we have those people out there. So what like one thing that I've I've heard from contractors and just from from other podcasters is that you know they really feel like the younger people getting into trades are just not motivated. I can't remember now which podcast I was listening to, but one of them just blatantly said it: people just don't give a bleep anymore. What are we? What can we do to really? Of course, we just had the recent announcement that Grit is coming live to help. kind of youth find their way into the trades and to help kind of, you know, drive that message home that the trades careers are good. What can we do to motivate people to want to learn? And, you know, the young people out there, or maybe the not so young who want to do a career change, what can we do to motivate people?

So there is some truth to that. And we know that, and there's been a sequence of events. I mean, the pandemic didn't help. And especially at that age where people are impressionable and it's like, well, we're just going to stay home. The everybody gets a trophy mentality is not helping. We're going— we are a mediocrity society instead of a meritocracy based on merit. And so some of that stuff has worked against us. And so there is some cultural things that we're kind of going against. And we can't lump one group into that, you know, they don't want to work. work because there's exceptions. And I, and I think it's a low percentage of those people that don't have that drive. But, but, but having that drive is— that's character.

That's kind of—

it can be developed, but some people just have it. And I've been fortunate enough to have it.

Right.

You know, we, we talked earlier about pivotal moments. I had— here's, here's something that will tie into that. We need to bring shop back to schools. When I was in junior high, We had auto shop, metal shop, wood shop, industrial shop. I even had a plastics shop in my junior high. I got turned on to metal shop and I excelled. I did everything imaginable in metal shop in the first year. My teacher took me under his wing and we started doing special projects that Weren't really a part of the curriculum. And so me and 2 other students built a Windjammer. He bought the material, we built it and took it out to the desert and tried it. And it worked. And then we got to, then we got to have a ride in a commercial Windjammer and the thing was going 60 miles an hour and the sails fluttering. And I think ours did, you know, 20 tops.

Wow.

But it, but it was that hands-on experience. And because of that teacher in junior high sparking that in me, that changed the trajectory of my career. I mean, I was in the sheet metal union. I can go to the bench and make just about anything imaginable, and I can almost make anything over the tailgate of my truck because of that. And so there's, there's things, uh, but grit is amazing. I wish we would bring shop back, put more in, um, emphasis back in the trades. And I think, I think with the, you know, the technology boom and burst and the dot-com that came and went, and people realizing that they can, you know, go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, come out, and that space is real limited. It's kind of— there's opportunities, but you'll be in a cubicle and you'll make— you can make a living. But the, you know, the, the, the select few that really can like blow it up, it's kind of like your chances of Playing high school baseball and then making it into the major leagues.

Right, exactly.

So if we would put a little more emphasis on that, and so you—it's almost guaranteed if you can get into a skilled trades, you can have a nice life, make a nice living, put your kids through school, buy a house, have all the things you want, put your kids through college. There are thousands and thousands of skilled trades people who have done just that. And thank God for Grit. That is a shift that we need. And Brian Orr, just, just his vision, just the HVAC School Symposium and what he's done is grassroots as grassroots can be. And Grit is going to do the same. And I think he can get some good backers behind him and it's going to make a difference.

And it will. And I really feel like, you know, that is the thing that's missing is we do have an entire really It's almost a generation and a half, 2 generations that grew up without shop classes and stuff. You know, it was not helpful that, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. I was born in 1980. So I'm, you know, I grew up in that era where you were encouraged implicitly and explicitly to go to college, get a degree, you know, doctor or lawyer. That's what you really should be aiming for. But the thing is, you know, just like many of my peers, I would rather be working on the doctor or lawyer's car— well, now their heating and cooling system— or a piece of the doctor or lawyer's equipment than to be actually the doctor or lawyer. If I had to— in fact, law, the idea of law school, just the human body fascinates me. I would love, you know, med school, you know, obviously I never really would have gone. But, but had I, that would have been the direction I'd have gone in because I, I can really relate to the idea of the body as a machine. But, you know, law school would have— or I'm sorry, 2 different thoughts trying to come out at the same time. Med school, all the different memorization, the different names of things, the different, you know, it would have— there's no way I would have been able to figure that out. And then law school, it's all just law. It's all text. It's all, you know, there's no— I'm sure somebody will get on here in the comments and argue with me that no, there's, there's a mechanistic quality to it, and I'm sure that there is. But all I'm saying is, me at the age that a student usually goes to college, no way. And, and I did go to college. I have a bachelor's degree in social work, uh, but You know, I gravitated toward the mechanical stuff. I wanted to, you know, I'm sitting there studying, you know, different, like abnormal psych and different psychological principles and barely got through college. And I'm sitting here watching the maintenance men, you know, fix the heating system and the boilers at the, on campus and repairing things. And I'm just like, oh, that's kind of cool. That's how I ended up actually getting here. But, but, you know, reaching out to people when they're young, where they are, instead of telling them how they need to be, I think is going to be a whole lot more effective. And then the other thing that I was going to say is if we aren't going to have shop classes in school, then boy, isn't it great that Programs like GRIT are going to exist so that maybe we can bring shop class to the students, to the people who would appreciate that. You know, maybe they're not going to want their nose in a book as much. I mean, you gotta spend some time reading, guys, but, um, you know, offering some hands-on opportunities. That, that's— thank you, Brian Orr, if you ever listen to this, for creating that. And then let's, uh, Let's hope and pray that we can get Brian on here someday because that would be, that would be a treat. I'd love to hear his story.

He's very approachable. You know what else I never learned in school? How to balance a frickin checkbook. That might have been good.

Thank you. It's, yeah, all the basic life skills of, you know, like, you know, how does, how does, how does a 401 work? Why should you think about that when you're, you know, 16, working your first job and, and, you know, you're part-time in high school, but the company is still offering you, you know, a 401. Why, why would it be a really good idea to take advantage of that as young as possible? Yeah, yeah, all the things that we should learn in high school. But I tell you what, when you invent a time machine so that we can go back and fix that stuff, let me know. I'll go with you because I've got some things. But, you know, so, you know, all that said, and, you know, it seems like you've accomplished a lot. How can we as the learners, you know, what can we do to challenge, or I guess challenge ourselves to make sure that, you know, all the good information you and others are putting out, you know, doesn't go to waste? Like, that's what you just said, you're in legacy mode. How do we take advantage of that?

You know, that's the million-dollar question. Well, first, first of all, it has to be a want, right? So people, people who want it, they'll find it. And with today's age and, you know, technology, everything is at your fingertips. So having it centralized helps because there's stuff everywhere, but it's real, real easy to find with the technology we have today. So, you know, they have to want it, and if they want it, they're going to go get it. I can't, I can't want it for them. Right. They gotta want it themselves. And, um, you mentioned yourself that you're, you were, you're a millennial or? I'd be a Gen Xer. You're a Gen X, right? So I'm a boomer. I was born in the '50s. And so there's the Gen X, the millennials, Gen Z, and now the newest one is Gen Beta. We have to understand that people learn different too. Not everybody is a book learner. I didn't do so good early in school because it was too slow for me. Too slow a pace. They couldn't feed me the information fast enough to keep me interested. And then once I got into college, and interestingly enough, I was leaning towards child psychology, and so that was my, uh, my major at the time. I even got to go, uh, work with children in elementary schools that were having some challenges. And so that was the direction I was going, and then I accidentally fell into the trades, but that You know, that happens to a lot of people. People learn different. Not everybody's a book learner. What is it called? Kinesthetic learning, where they have to feel it, touch it, see it, smell it.

Yeah. Kinesthetic touch. Yes.

And there's people that are auditory learners. They hate reading a book, but they can listen to a book. I have a, I have a gentleman that I just love his stuff. It's Jeffrey May, and he's got a book called My House Is Killing Me. And it's really like the nuts and bolts of what goes on with indoor air quality in the living space. I have his book on audio and I put the CDs and while I'm driving across the country, I listen to it. Another buddy of mine did the same thing and got his contractor's license in California, which California is the hardest contractor license to get. And so people learn that way. So That's, that's, I think, going to be a little bit of a hurdle because we have all this stuff and learning, understanding how different people need to learn and being able to cater to that, I think is going to be important as well.

So one thing that, you know, that brings to mind is I've just been reading Brian Orr's book. Is it Unrestrained?

Yeah, something like that.

And, um, The first chapter, he gets into how this whole, like, one-size-fits-all kind of almost like assembly line type standardized teaching is just not really actually beneficial. The only one that benefits really is the Industrial Revolution factory owners who need soldiers who will just obey every command without flinching. And Unfortunately, that, that's not today's learner. I don't think that was yesterday's learner either. And, you know, you're right, there is no one-size-fits-all. We need to tailor our teaching to our students. One thing that I'm realizing, and as you brought up generations, as a Gen Xer, as a younger Gen Xer, so right on the edge between where Gen X and millennial meet, when I was coming up in school, Things like ADHD, autism, neurodivergence, whatever you want to call it. It was kind of just starting to be talked about. And, you know, so recently I've started actually exploring that in my own kind of, you know, I'm at a stage in life where I really want to focus on my own health, well-being, you know, holistic, just the whole self, you know, mentally, physically, spiritually. I want to be well. And things that I've noticed about myself now that I'm reflecting and kind of making sure that I'm taking care of, I'm actually noticing in my own dad. And I'm just like, holy cow, you know, because in your— and this is a man of your generation, John. So, you know, the thought that, you know, these people existed who were just maybe they're wired a little different, they think a little different. Than the average person. They're not dumb. In fact, they're quite intelligent. They're just— they think differently. But they were always there. And it's like, my gosh, the frustration. You know, I'm really— as I'm thinking, I'm empathizing with my own dad and with your generation again. It's like, my gosh, the frustration that these things weren't even talked about when you guys were kids.

There's a couple things that happened with that too. And I do remember that Kind of, if they were, they were diagnosing people with ADHD or, you know, hand over fist. And, and there was a lot of misdiagnosis going on too. Oh God. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it was, it was treated pharmaceutically, which I think was a big mistake. And then later on they learned that they, maybe there's some irreversible side effects from treating ADHD. And there was probably a ton of ADHD when I was growing up and it was treated with discipline. I turned out okay.

Exactly. Exactly.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you to go out and discipline your ADHD kid. I'm just saying that the way we look at things is different nowadays. But, uh, yeah. And is it ADHD or is it just hyperactivity? You know, someone's got, you know, or a little bit of both.

Yeah.

I, you know, I eat a candy bar and I bounce off the walls.

Exactly. And, you know, the truth is that the things I've learned about mental health and psychiatric medications of any kind is that Well, yes, there are some people who absolutely need them and they will not function without it. You know, for probably the— probably at least half everybody, if they actually do need that support, it's just that it's a support. It's to help you to kind of figure out how to cope with these different situations going on within you.

Yeah.

They're not a bandaid. There's no magic pill. They're, it's not going to fix you.

Sure. And not to get too far down this rabbit hole, as instructors where we're at in today's marketplace, basically being a trade instructor, mentor, coach, different things, it's not up to us. No, not up to us at all. And then, um, to your point, understanding that people learn differently. Yes. I had attended a seminar by a lady named Jan Spence. She is a keynote speaker. This lady is everywhere. She was just in Dubai, but she does some coaching and training for Daikin. And so we, Daikin pours into us every year. We have a train the trainer. We've always got materials. We've got different things, how to cope with conflict and kind of like a Briggs Myers kind of thing. And we're just really outfitted, but Jan did this, this presentation called Death by PowerPoint. And to her, the point she was trying to make is not everybody learns the same. And if you're going to be teaching, you can't just use a PowerPoint as a crutch. And I took that to heart, and it changed the way I teach. And understanding that people learn different— in my training, I do have PowerPoints because some people need to read that. But a lot of those PowerPoint are triggers for my conversation. But I have stand-up, sit-down, here's something we're going to work together, we're going to break up in groups, we're gonna, we're gonna do case studies, and we're gonna stand up, hey, we're gonna take a field trip, let's go to the back of the room, we'll go through all my tools. And so that was an eye-opener, and when— and I started to think about it because we've all been there, we've all gone to seminars and different things, and it's a PowerPoint and the person is up there and they're talking and their voice is hypnotic and we're And off. And it's like, whoa, whoa. And she's like, yeah, you got to have jazz hands, you know, put some life into your presentation and your teaching methods. And Ty is another great example of that because he's so animated and with—

Oh gosh, yes.

All his props and different things. And I've taken a little bit of a page out of that and, and, uh, try to combine it all into my presentation because my class is 16 hours of this.

Yeah. And that, and it definitely shows when the instructor is getting tired.

Oh yeah, you can tell. And so, uh, also in, in everything that I get to do, I've really stepped into public speaking and public speaking is a little different than teaching because, uh, you've got a limited amount of time to convey a point or some, some, uh, concepts or different things to an audience. But one of the key strategies of public speaking is you've got 30 seconds to get that audience.

Right.

And then you need to hold that audience in the palm of your hand for the duration of your speak, whatever it may be. Most of the time I have an hour, but you have to hold them. And then you have to, at the end of your talk, let them go wanting more. And there is a whole science to that. And I've kind of taken that jump into that and learned some of the psychology behind public speaking. It's been absolutely fascinating. And I've been in, in seminars, and you may have too, where the audience got away. Oh, it is painful. And not only when I go see other people speak, I watch the speaker, but I am studying the audience, especially when I hear something that is like That is brilliant. I look around to see if everybody else responded to or reacted to that the same way I did. And it's it's great because you have to be a student of the craft. And and so there's certain people who speak, and just O'Brien's a brilliant speaker. And although he's an introvert and he doesn't like—he's probably an INFJ—he doesn't like to speak, but he does it very well, and he's very good at. conveying whatever information he wants to in the time given. And so—

I'm sorry, there is what?

There's quite a few of those guys out there that just have that gift.

And it's interesting too, because, you know, I've heard him refer to himself as an introvert. And I actually consider myself more introverted than extroverted. If you think of it more as a continuum rather than, you know, a binary black or white thing. Yeah, the thing is, and this is where my wife always accuses me, like, no, you are not introverted. You know, you used to be a pastor, you used to enjoy public speaking, and, you know, you used to prefer a larger group than a smaller group. And here's why. If it's a larger group, it is more just a group. It is not a person or a bunch of people. It is just a group. So if it was— and I've never spoken to a group this large— but if it were a group of 1,000 people, then it's even easier because to me it's just this big conglomeration. If it's 10 people, those are 10 individual faces that I'm keenly aware of. So it's just easier the bigger the group. But yeah, and I, you know, I really feel like if Brian Orr and I got into a room together, we would probably really like Click. Like, I mean, like old long-lost friends. But, but both of our wives would probably then eventually get impatient and say, come on, we gotta go. But—

You know, my, my kids, I, I'm a communicator. I have the gift of gab or the curse, depending on what you want. But when I'm out with my kids, they're like, Dad, do you have to talk to everybody? I'm like, well, they talk, they talk to me, so I talk back. And my, my wife, she knows now just to let it go, but She's a she's an introvert. She doesn't like to walk into a group of people, but she's more comfortable getting there first and having the group of people come in. Yes, she's more comfortable like that, and we know that. So we typically when we go to a gathering will be a little bit early. Make this entrance into a crowd. It don't matter to me. I'm comfortable either way. Right. I am an EF ENFJ through and through. I've taken the Myers Briggs. test several times, it always comes back the same.

And yeah, I think, I think I am actually an INFJ because I score more introverted. But yes, the, the— when you're just used to being in front of people, used to teaching, presenting, and it just becomes a part of what you do. And to that end, um, you know, I think, and it's obvious that part of the reason that you've Kind of gained some notoriety in the HVAC community is that I think you just— I may be wrong, but I think you just love this stuff.

I do. I absolutely love this stuff. And everybody thinks that Jon is like this IAQ guy and everything that encompasses, but it encompasses a lot. Not only is it building science, but it's all the things that have to do with indoor air quality and pollutants and where do they come from and how different things affect people metabolically. Metabolically, but I'm HVAC strong, but I've never been a technician. I've always been on, on the construction side and building systems and designing systems and commissioning systems. Could I work my way? Yeah, I know how to, I know secrets of operation. I know how to read some gauges and a meter. I could get through it, but that's—

I'm sure you certainly know how to read the wiring diagram.

That's, and yeah, schematic and blueprints on like massive buildings and how to design and order materials for multimillion dollar. So I'm pretty well-rounded, but I'm always learning. I love some of the new stuff like MeasureQuick and the TruTech Flow Grid and their forecasting and, you know, some of the wireless stuff and some of the, some of the newer technologies that are coming out now too for IAQ is always amazing. Haven IAQ is amazing. And so I'm always like looking and kind of in awe and just, you know, soaking it up, all the new emerging technology, because that's, that's where we're at now. We've got some great things. That help us turn the wrench better. You get some technology and a wrench, you're in good shape.

Absolutely. And I think the fact that you, you know, you don't consider yourself as ever having been a technician is actually quite motivating to those who would maybe be reluctant to step out as, you know, a trainer. Maybe they have a decade or a few years or, you know, they've accumulated enough time in the field that In one way or another that they could be sharing the information that they have, but maybe they don't have the confidence. But here we have a 40-year veteran who doesn't even consider himself as having ever been a technician in the van going to eight houses a day. But this is one of our mentors and the people that we admire in the trade. I hired some really good technicians, and I just I just think that's you know one of the my key. Accomplishments that I want to do or goals is really to inspire people themselves to step up in the teaching role. Because as I've said before, if we need half a million techs over the next so many years, we're gonna need a heck of a lot of teachers. Bless you.

Thank you.

I mean, even if we couldn't hear it, I saw it, but that's okay. The fact is, you know, with all those technicians that we need as an industry, we're gonna need a lot of people To teach them. So if you're a company guy and you know you feel like you're just a guy in a truck, or if you are a tech in the field and you have pretty good head knowledge of systems and wiring and things, but you know you don't feel like you have the thirty years that you feel like you need to be an instructor, yeah, I would challenge you to rethink that. Wouldn't you say, John? Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, you know, and I've always said, and maybe it's a little bit of hyperbole, but if you have a day in the field, you have something that you can share. In fact, I would love to hear, you know, a lot of first day stories. What was, you know, what was that like? Most of us don't remember, but here's something interesting.

If everybody, no matter where they're at on their journey and however many years they had, If they could share one mistake that they made and what they did to correct that mistake.

That's right.

And if that's all anybody took about— talked about, hey, one time I smoked a motor. Well, what'd you do to correct that? Well, I had to really dig into the wiring diagram and wire it right. Or one time I grenaded a compressor, you know. Well, why was that? Just the mistakes that we've all made in the trade. You know what? One time I fell through a ceiling. Knock on wood, I've never fallen through a ceiling, but my employees have. And one time I didn't hook up— here's one that I did. How's this for a whoops experience? And it was a learning experience. We were doing a set of commercial, like 6,000 CFM swamp coolers on a roof in California for a warehouse. And so in California, under my C-20 license, my warm air heating and air conditioning license, I'm allowed to do all my own electrical and all my own plumbing to my equipment. Right. And so I have to— so we were doing them across, I think we did 6 of them. And so I had to run the water lines up. So I go into this commercial building, I'm working with the engineer, he shows me where the water line is in the ceiling where I need to penetrate the roof. So Going in, I went right, left, left, down a hall, left, right, came back, went up into the bathroom. Here's the scuttle, go up, here's the isolation valve, turn it off, and cut the wrong side of the pipe.

Oh Lord, John.

Yes. And water was coming. That's a 2-inch high-pressure line. It about knocked me out of the ceiling. I run to the front, shut the whole water off to the whole building. I'm soaking wet. There's an inch and a half of water through the whole half of the, half of the 4th floor of this building. And there I am sitting like with my cutters, like, what, what happened? I'm still here today. It was expensive, right? Cleaning up. But I learned a valuable lesson. Just things like that could really teach a whole wealth of information to people. I recommend don't do that. Yeah, don't do that.

Don't do that. So, you know, before we wrap up here, John, I've really enjoyed our conversation. But, you know, one, we're definitely gonna have to have you back on because, you know, we haven't even scratched the surface of the stories I'm sure you have to tell. Every guest, I like to just ask them, so what are you really focused on learning here? Like, what's the challenge for John right now? What are you learning? How are you challenging yourself? I mean—

Every stinking day I'm reading articles. Yeah. Whether they are technical articles, whether they are product-related articles, whether they are science-related articles, I am constantly reading and researching, especially in the field of IAQ. So that, that helps. And even if, even if I think I know something about a certain topic or subject, hearing it from a different perspective, I always get something. And it's like, oh, that's interesting. And maybe that changed my understanding of of that principle or whatever it may be. So I'm constantly researching and reading all the time, and I'm watching different different podcasts and different things. I mentioned before, I'm really in legacy mode. Yeah. And I am you know, I retired once and came out. I retired. 7 and a half years ago, came out of retirement right away and I had some wonderful opportunities. I'm really starting to walk some of those things back. I love, love, love teaching and speaking. I will probably always do that. I am really, really enjoying the product development side of the industry, which I just got a good taste of and now I'm hooked.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. And so I am, you know, I'm 66 years old. I'm slowing down a little bit. I'm in legacy mode. I'm handing the torch to as many guys that want to be a torchbearer. And so I am just really, really comfortable in where I'm at. I am comfortable in my own skin and embracing getting older. And my health, I've got my health, and that could change tomorrow. And so, you know, I'm focused on that. I've made some changes in the last couple years because, you know, your body starts telling you stuff. It's like, wow, that never hurt before. It's like, oh, and so that's, that's kind of where I'm at. Always learning. Yeah. And just enjoy being here. I enjoy Doing these kind of shows, and yeah. So absolutely.

Well, John, of course we appreciate your mentorship, your your wisdom that you share with us all the time. Of all else, we appreciate you know your friendship, and and definitely thanks for being on the show, John. Where can people find you online?

Well, you know, people think I'm nuts, but call me. Yeah, my phone number is 505-652-89. I get the Best calls, and I don't care. Call me about anything. Guys call me; they're in the field. They're trying to figure stuff out. They call me, you know, while they're on a call, and they FaceTime me and show me stuff. And I've never had a bad phone call, and I've been giving out my phone number freely for the last seven years.

So call me; we can talk. John Ellis also available on Facebook if you want to just drop him a quick note. Yep. So I'm on Facebook.

My company Facebook page is called Dynamic Air Consulting. It's just a lot. of articles and information and I'm on LinkedIn.

But call him, please.

Yeah, call me. It's all good.

John offers friendship freely to all, which is just the best.

Absolutely. So thank you, Michael, for having me on and yeah, yeah, we'll have to do it again.

We will. Thank you, sir, for now. And people, if you enjoyed today's show, please like and subscribe. If you have any questions for John or For myself, feel free to leave those down in the comments. But until next time, thank you very much for watching or listening to the HVAC Mentors Podcast. Signing off for now.

This was the HVAC Mentors Podcast. The HVAC Mentors Podcast is sponsored by the HVA Chicks Coalition, offering free resources for HVAC HVACR students and technicians, along with a free 24/7 tech support line. Check out the HVAC Coalition Facebook page for more information. Please like, subscribe, and share, and thank you as always for listening.