Redefining Autism Recruiting and Retention

Okay, hello and welcome everyone. You're here watching our Industry 4.0 Club, uh, on LinkedIn Live. And this is our Thursday weekly room on people, process, and culture. And today we have our first episode on a new series on autism in manufacturing. And we have our 2 co-hosts, Jason Bean and Scott Phillips, on here, as well as Adam Heckman from Microsoft. So we're gonna have a A little introduction both on the actual series itself. Jason's going to go through that, and then we're going to have a, I think, a very, very engaging conversation with Adam about how recruitment is a little bit different today and what Microsoft is specifically doing to increase probably the staffing and the talent within Microsoft with new methods, etc. Just a little bit about myself. My name is Jan Pingel. I'm in the product management space. I work for Ingersoll Rand when I'm not here with these great, great people. I am a product leader for digital solutions where we are utilizing IoT to make our equipment smart and connected. Over to you, Scott, for a quick introduction.

Great. Hey, thanks. I'm Scott Phillips, and I'm also a founder with the Industry 4.0 Club. Spent most of my career with Whirlpool Corporation. When I'm not doing activities like this today, I consult with manufacturers and I help them build Industry 4.0 roadmaps.

Thanks. Jason?

I'm Jason Bean. So when I'm not with the Industry 4.0 Club, I am the IIoT market specialist for Prepper and Fuchs. where I just help our customers understand what they need to tackle first in their digital transformation strategies. And now we can toss it over to Adam for a quick introduction.

Terrific. Thanks for having me on here, folks. I'm Adam Heckman. I am with Microsoft Philanthropy. I am a director in Microsoft Philanthropy. I focus on global workforce ecosystems. I've been with Microsoft for almost 31 years, based in Chicago, actually, Scott, right down the street from Whirlpool. And it's great to be with you all. Great topic.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for joining us today. We're looking really forward to our conversation. But Jason, you wanted to just quickly introduce our new series, which I think we're all going to be looking for here with very different aspects of this topic with different guests. And again, here Adam is our first guest, but we'll have a couple other guests coming on. So if you want to just quickly introduce the series to our listeners.

Okay, so I was diagnosed with autism at the age of 37 as an adult when I went back to school for management engineering. Throughout my— since I've been diagnosed, the one thing I've kind of noticed that does not get talked about within the employment space is people with neurodiversity. So, people with autism, people with bipolar, people with learning disabilities, these are not issues that we hear regularly. So, I've been anxious to actually run a series on autism and hopefully get this conversation started within the workplace. And help employers realize that people with autism actually do bring a great deal of strengths with them into the employment space and can affect change within the society for the better, within the employment structure. For those who maybe don't know what autism is, maybe you've heard the name, you've heard autism, Asperger's, or ASD, which is Autism Spectrum Disorder. It generally refers to a broad range of conditions characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviors, speech, and nonverbal communication. It's great words, but what do they really mean? So, the tasks, the social skills that most people naturally learn from going to school, in elementary and have mastered at a very early age, people with autism spectrum disorder struggle with those skills pretty much for their entire life. They can learn them, but it requires effort, and it also requires a great deal of thought and control of certain behaviors to be able to actively participate within society. And according to the CDC, autism affects an estimated 1 in 44 people within, within the US alone. So there's a large number of adults out there with autism. I believe the last number I looked at was an estimated 5, just over 5.5 million adults on the spectrum. Just in the U.S., and out of that, those num we even get some scarier numbers, which is 80 to 85 percent of adults on the spectrum are underemployed or unemployed. So we have a massive workforce that wants to work and it's capable of working, but our general process to hiring, that whole interview process plays right into a lot of the weaknesses in autism. And that's why we decided— I decided to start the series off with Adam from Microsoft, because Microsoft really has taken a different approach than a lot of other companies into how they hire autistic individuals. Adam, would you mind sharing with us why it's important for yourself and Microsoft to, you know, talk on this aspect of autism and why you guys have decided to take a different approach?

Sure, absolutely. Well, the first reason should probably be a simple premise that should be of surprise to no one. Diversity enriches our performance. It helps us make things better, helps us make better products, helps us attract new customers. It supports the communities that we live and work in. It supports the lives of our employees. And this, you know, our neurodiversity hiring program, which is one channel for bringing in neurodiverse talent, is related to our efforts around diversity inclusion. We also believe that there is some great untapped potential in the marketplace and roles that would set future employees up for success. And the neurodiverse talent pool is certainly an undertapped pipeline of great talent. Specifically, neurodivergent individuals, people, neurodiverse individuals, they strengthen your workforce. They bring innovative thinking, they bring creative solutions. Diverse teams positively impact our company culture, our working environment, how we served our customers. And I'm really proud to say that, you know, Microsoft's been seen as a thought leader in this space. And we built this neurodiversity hiring program on the belief that neurodivergent individuals strengthen the workforce with that innovative thinking, that creative solutions.

What benefits have you guys actually seen from this this program and taking this different approach?

Oh yeah. Well, for one thing, like I'd mentioned, it's an untapped talent pool, but people are starting to recognize and it's becoming less untapped. People are starting to tap into it. So it's, it's a competitive advantage to make sure that you have access to employees with the most potential. And neurodiversity certainly is one of those talent pools. You have benefits not only to the company in general and the employees specifically, but, you know, think of our— think of the teams that neurodiverse people work with. Think of the managers. Managers have shared with us that once they've hired people from this program, I've been more thoughtful about my communication with the whole team. I see myself clarifying my intent more frequently, which is something you want a manager to do. I doubled down on sending emails with expectations, which benefits the team. I'm giving more feedback now to everybody. So when you bring in neurodiverse talent, all members of the team benefit from the skills that the manager is getting, and then the team itself grows as a result. We provide training to teams that everybody says is very positive and very supportive. I've heard more than one person on our team Speak about being more educated and aware of different communication styles and then conspicuously applying those learnings to other personal and business interactions. And the team continues to learn from each other. We learn from our neurodiverse employees, and this is helping to foster an inclusive culture. So I think there's a lot of benefits, and I think people are really starting to— employers are really starting to recognize that. We've just been a little bit ahead of the curve.

So when did you start with this? I mean, when do you really put this program into practice? I mean, are we talking 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? Well, when do you start this program, do you think?

That's a really good question. I'd say that it was less than 10 years, but more than 2 years. And it's evolved. And as I mentioned before, this specific hiring program is just one pipeline for the people, neurodiverse people to come into Microsoft. We every single day, we through the standard hiring process, we see neurodiverse talent coming in. And, you know, we're committed to neurodiverse hiring practices no matter how that individual comes to us. That's cool.

So, so can—

are—

would you be willing to share what some of those changes are that you've had to make to, to be more neuro— to have a more neurodiverse hiring practice?

Oh yeah, sure. So, you know, the— we've had the opportunity to do some really interesting things on that hiring process. Some people, some neurodiverse people struggle with The social dynamics of an interview process, new environments like traditional job interviews. Traditional job interviews, like, I think you brought this up, Jason, it kind of stacks the deck. And when it highlights social skills and the ability to answer these vague questions like, describe a challenge that you faced, you know, for one thing, applicants engage in virtual interviewing process. So they have control over their environment. They may be more comfortable in their environment. For another, it's spread over several days, so it's not all crammed into a single day. It's an extended interviewing process, and it focuses on workability. It focuses on interview preparation, skills assessments. So even before the candidate interviews, they have the opportunity to showcase their unique talents while they're learning about Microsoft as hopefully the employer of choice. One of my favorite parts is that we hold these hiring events sometimes that candidates spend a few days learning what it's like to work at Microsoft while working on the skills development and the interview prep. They also meet with the interviewing team that they're going to be interviewing with both formally and informally. In advance, as well as other employees that were hired through the program and members of the neurodiverse community at Microsoft.

I know I can speak from my personal experience with the interview processes. Majority of the jobs— actually, I could say all the jobs I got before I knew of my diagnosis, I never got from a job interview. It was somebody that knew what my skills were, Yes.

Yes.

There was a particular manufacturer that their interview process, all the initial steps were skills assessments.

Right, right.

The final step was a large panel interview. And everybody on that panel interview was— I had never met before. I didn't know who they were.

It was you. It was you facing the panel.

It was me facing a panel in person. And I, like I said, I, I flew by all the skills testing, no problem. Like, even one of the skills tests I finished in like 5 minutes, which just blew the person administering it away. But then I just failed at the interview. Like, probably one of the worst interviews I ever did in my life because it was an environment I was unfamiliar with. It was people I had I was unfamiliar with. And the more the stress built, the more my autistic traits came out.

And yet you had the skills to do the job.

Yet I had the skills.

It wasn't just you that lost out. It was that hiring company, because they put some artificial barriers in the way of hiring good neurodiverse talent.

That brings another question I've had when I was listening to you guys is You have a process, but I'm assuming you, you also kind of coach the interviewers in some way. Like, if you have the hiring manager and, you know, a couple peers or whatever, you have a special program for them to understand, hey, there's different types of questions you got to come up with. Not too much open-ended, maybe a little bit more specific. Or here's a list of questions for this particular candidate because of of their— how do you do that today?

Yeah, we have. In fact, this is one of the more popular courses that we have hiring managers take. And that is, it's part of our inclusive hiring program where we have this toolkit for hiring for neurodiversity. That's it. At first, it starts out by exactly what Jason did. It starts out by defining neurodiversity, explaining how it works, explaining the difference between neurotypical brain functions, etc., talking about how you may think you know what neurodiversity is, but it's really broad, right? And then they go into not only interviewing, which is the main focus of the the training, but then also what happens after that. You know, Jason hit the nail on the head. Interviewing for a job can be an incredibly stressful experience for anybody looking for employment. Neurodiverse candidates who may have social difficulties or may miss nonverbal cues, the experience can be absolutely paralyzing, and the social anxiety can cause individuals to freeze up and not be able to think on the spot. And ultimately unable to respond in ways that communicate their knowledge and communicate their experience. And that's all in the hands of the interviewer, right? The hiring manager has that in their hands. You didn't need to be put in front of a panel. So we give them recommendations that help the interviewer feel confident that the interview process doesn't put the neurodiverse candidate at a disadvantage. In doing that, we're also more effectively contributed to Microsoft building a diverse workforce that benefits from the productivity and the innovation that comes from neurodiverse talent.

Are there particular jobs you found that the neurodiverse talent tends to fit better, or can neurodiverse pretty much function in any job?

Neurodiverse can function in any job. And we see them in a lot— see people with neurodiverse people coming in at all types of pipelines at Microsoft. For this particular program, Even for this particular neurodiverse hiring program, we see a very broad swath. It's everything from data scientists to finance analysts to support engineers to software engineers, services engineers, program management, product management, IT operations, customer engineering, consulting, content writing. It's just a really big group of roles that we have focused this particular program on. But as I said, we see neurodivergent people coming in through every different type of hiring channel that we have.

Hey, Jason, this is Scott. I had a question for you. Could you talk about the current state of neurodiversity at your employer, the Perelman Have you had an impact on that?

And I would say right now, I'm probably the only employee I know of that is open with the fact that I'm on the autism spectrum. But in my interactions with other engineers and salespeople, I'm pretty sure there are other people on the spectrum. I see the traits. And I recognize the difficulties that they face. It's just this is most people on the spectrum are really actually afraid to come out and admit that they're on the spectrum, and that's because most throughout their life growing up faced a large deal of bullying or just misunderstanding as being treated as that. Weird, quirky individual. So they, they hide it. And this is part of why I wanted to start these conversations was to get people talking about it, right? To say, you know, there's nothing wrong with coming out and saying that you're on the spectrum. There is nothing wrong for an employer to actually look at employing people from the spectrum. We We bring a lot of unique skill sets with us. We have a higher attention of focus for for tasks. We generally tend to be better positioned for pattern recognition. Autistic individuals tend to be loyal employees. They're they're not likely to jump ship. You know, there's a number of different. strengths that they bring. Although there are challenges that they face, the strengths, in my opinion, far outweigh the challenges.

Yeah, I have a story. It's like 15 years ago, I was— we had an intern in the company, and he was kind of moving around a little bit. And then I was asked if I, you know, would look at finding a role for him in my group. And And absolutely. And then I had a talk with him and I kind of, at the time, I was not familiar with the spectrum of autism. I heard the name from, you know, the movie with what's his name?

Rain Man.

Yeah, Rain Man. But it didn't kind of— that's so different, right? And so specific. It's— I think it's hard for us, maybe more now that we can see some hints of it, but I couldn't at the time. But, but I got a little bit of that. And then it was, for me, it was trying to find out You know, as you say, the attention span is— or attention to details. And so he actually ended up being like our, what do you call it, the manager of the team from a perspective of handling phone calls, templates, making sure everybody did what they were supposed to do, create documents and maintain spreadsheets and stuff like that. And it was just like everybody's saying, wow, They hadn't found a role for him that fit. He kind of didn't work out. And it was just a matter of finding out exactly, well, what is this person? Where do they fit and what are they good at? And I think it's more by accident that I found out that his attention to detail, that was really what was the right part. But at the time, I wasn't really aware of it. And I think it's something that not just Microsoft needs. I think really both companies need to both have from the hiring process, but also just by understanding, you know, people around you and figure out, you know, there's something there that they're not as good at. But there are other things that they're very, very good at, and trying to figure out what makes sense for them in the role they're in, right?

Yeah, that's it. So there's a saying that when you've met one neurodiverse person, you've met one neurodiverse person, because everybody comes in with something different and a little bit of strengths in one area. And the, you know, the, just the, like you brought up before, your perception of what neurodiversity was and what actually it, what it actually was, there's a gap there. And I think people don't realize just how common it is, you know, 10% of the global population are people with dyslexia, 9.4% of the population are people with ADHD, 1. Out of— what is it— 1 out of 44 people are autistic. And, you know, there's— they just bring great skills to different jobs. But you can't put it in a box. You can't say, okay, all of our neurodiverse employees are going to be in this particular role. Just doesn't work that way.

Right.

Like you said, you went— you saw— you You found out what was the strength that that person brought to the company and said, aha, let's find a way to capitalize on those strengths so that the employee is a good long-term employee. As Jason mentioned, they tend to be loyal employees and lower turnover. And then where do they add the most value to your company?

Absolutely.

Aside from changing your guys' hiring process, are there any other changes you had to actually make within the organization to support the neurodiverse?

Oh, absolutely. You know, getting them in the door is— it's a— that's, you know, that's tough because you seek— you have to find ways to seek people out. But once they come in, that's when their career starts. That's when their journey with you starts. And hopefully that journey is a long time. So once they come in, we have special onboarding support. We can provide workplace accommodations. There's the manager and team training on neurodiversity. There are internal support communities. ERGs, employee resource groups, where they can meet with other people that are neurodiverse. There is a special mentorship program. There are career development sessions. I mean, it just goes on and on. You just have to make them and everybody else in the company who may not have identified during their interview process they were neurodiverse, making them aware of all these great resources. It doesn't stop after the interviewing process.

How do you work on identifying? For example, when you go through a process today as a non-neurodiverse, you get some questions around, are you identified as military and then identified as vet or identifying also as if you have any disability? But I've never seen anything around disability. To me, always, it's something like you're physical, right? That's something that's going to hinder you. They got to get extra accommodation, where neurodiversity is really just a matter of finding the right place. So how do you— what's the process? Is there a process? Or is it more like you identified early on by just kind of listening to the person? Or is there really, you know, like, do you have a checkbox? in your process that says, hey, I'm applying for a job at Microsoft, and by the way, my disability, or I don't even call it disability, but I have a neurodiverse scenario, and just identify that upfront.

We're not going to make any diagnoses ourselves. It's the individual self-identifies, whether that is during the interview process or prior to the interview process. Or even when you're at Microsoft, there's a self-identification tool. It's private and we leave that up to the employee.

Because I can assume, and Jason, you can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but if I was a neurodiverse person and it becomes a self-identifying question that I'm identifying, then at least I'm assuming that Microsoft is actually going to be handling this a little bit different and probably more to my benefit as opposed to the opposite way.

That is correct. Was that for me or for Jason?

It was both, but Jason was the one that talked a little bit about his experience coming in where he did not identify as neurodiverse. The question, what would you have thought, Jason, if that would have been a question on on that particular job application. You told me before that people were a little bit hesitant in identifying. But if it's part of the job process, job application process, I would think I would definitely identify because I'm now assuming that there's going to be taking a little bit more, you know, caution around— not caution, but a little bit more specific around how that interview process is going to work for me, right?

I think if I was to apply for a job, and there was something in the application process where I could identify as being neurodiverse, that would personally make me feel better because at least I have the sense that I'm going into an organization that has some level of understanding of what neurodiversity is.

Right, exactly.

There's a better chance that that organization will is willing to work with me to find the right fit and not stick me in a position where it plays to my weaknesses, right?

Right, exactly. Put you in front of a 10-people panel in your process, right?

That also speaks to culture, right? You know, you want to, you want to foster a culture that instills pride in oneself and supports the community and self-identification and ownership. If your employees are not self-identifying, then there's a problem with the culture. It's not— there's not— that's not a problem with the employee. That's a problem with the culture.

That's a good point.

Yeah. If you cultivate an inclusive and diverse culture where everybody has a voice, and everybody's encouraged to bring their full selves, and empowered to achieve more, then you're going to have a culture where people are going to be more likely to identify their needs to bring their best selves.

That's a very good point. Absolutely.

One of the things I found in what I'm When I'm working with other people on the spectrum, because I do spend some of my time volunteering to mentor, you know, post-secondary kids on how they can get through post-secondary education with their diagnosis and helping them to, you know, find that first employer. But, uh, one of the, the problems is there is really a strong stereotype out there as to what autism is, and trying to get that education across is, is very hard. And what generally tends to happen, and what I've found, is most people on the spectrum tend to last About 2 to 3 years in a job before the employer lets them go. It's not a matter of they quit. It's their particular weaknesses were amplified in the workforce because they— the employer wasn't aware of the fact that they were neurodiverse, or the employer was aware and just didn't really actually understand how to address it. You know, for, for myself, before my diagnosis, I think I averaged close to over 20 different jobs. I couldn't keep a job over a year and a half. And it was, and it was those social skills that I lacked that I wasn't aware of that generally led to me leaving an employer. Now that I'm aware of it, I've been able to educate myself and, and train myself on how to address those issues. But a lot of the time, I'm also having to educate my employer as to what they are.

Yeah, probably any coworkers too, right? If they're more aware of that, that this is what it is, this is the background of it, that they're probably easier to also understand when when they approach you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, then they're able to maybe change their questioning or whatever it is to be more comfortable. Once they understand about it.

I would agree with that. And I also, I mean, I haven't, I haven't lived your experience. But I would have to think that that first job can make or break the next 19 jobs. Because if you've had a positive experience, Then you're set on one trajectory. If you've had a very negative experience, then you have another trajectory. And it's the kind of thing that may make you more reticent to self-identify. You know, we, we, we have— I had mentioned we have this self-identification process. It's a voluntary process where an individual has the opportunity to share information about themselves across across a range of both visible and non-visible dimensions. And it's really important to us for exactly the reason that Jason— for what Jason just unfortunately experienced. You know, it's a crucial contribution to advancing both the diversity and inclusion at Microsoft that I mentioned before. But as more employees self-identify or identify during the interview process or for it, we can achieve a truer understanding of our employees and the communities represented within Microsoft. We can, if enough people do it, you can make data-informed decisions about the benefits, the community resources, the support you're going to be providing for the communities across the company. It's voluntary, but we encourage people to do it so that we don't slip into the kind of experience that Jason had with a number of his jobs.

Yeah. And as I heard, you also have diversity groups that includes neurodiversity as well. So like, in our company, we have, you know, the typical, what you expect in large companies, you'll have, you know, the Latin Spanish, you have the Black network, African American network, you have all the others, and you have vets probably as well. But, but, but they're not— no, nothing about general, like, neurodiversity or even, even that, you know, disability or whatever, right? That this— and I can just imagine, especially a company as large as Microsoft, having that kind of diversity groups and have people that both supports it and that also has it, be able to get together and talk about it and be open about it. That opens it up very differently. We just started a group around disability in general, but it's more again physical disabilities. But I can just see the things that, as you mentioned, the non-visible disabilities. That's the part you don't talk about. But if you do, you are really increasing your openness about diversity in your company and you're increasing the value to the employees and the well-being of the employees in the company.

That's right. We do have ERG, employee resource groups, We have discussion groups. It's not just for neurodiverse employees. We have discussion groups for employees with neurodiverse children. Like you said, being able to support one another in that way, you just can't replace that.

No, absolutely.

One of the challenges that people on the spectrum generally tend to face in the workforce is their lack of ability to read social cues tends to lead them to fall prey to internal politics. Do you guys have any mechanism in place to help guide them through the internal politics of the company? And so that, you know, they're not going to fall prey to, you know, maybe somebody who decides that, you know, well, hey, I can easily manipulate this particular employee and they can take the blame for something I've done because most people on the spectrum won't pick that up.

Well, I like to think that people in our company aren't looking for somebody to exploit unless it's exploiting it for the positive. But yes, there's manager training and there is team training and employee training and collaboration tips. What's interesting about that is that these tips have been created by our neurodiverse employees at Microsoft. This is at every level. We share this with managers and they love it, but we also share it with interviewers so they can provide the most inclusive experience for neurodiverse individuals as well. But the fact that it's created by our own neurodiverse employees is fabulous. And then in the interview process, I believe that moving to an entirely virtual interview experience has helped so many candidates because they can manage their environment, you know, through our program or by request. If you're person who's neurodiverse, you can request that the interviewer be given training on how to best work with you, or your manager to be given the training on how to best work with you, or your coworkers. You know, I think interviewers, managers, teammates, if they feel prepared and they feel equipped, they can give their candidates and their colleagues the absolute best experience.

Adam, I had a question. It's clear Microsoft is way out in front on this topic, this initiative from a strategic standpoint. But are there a lot of other large Fortune 100 companies that are making the same headway you are, or are you part of a really small minority? I read a little bit about Procter& Gamble and a few other companies, but If you were together with all your peers at a conference, is that a big group or a small group?

Well, it's interesting you should say that because it is a group. There's a group that was launched called Neurodiversity at Work Employer Roundtable. This is a group of, I'd say it's a little, maybe it's a little over 50 companies with neurodiversity hiring programs and support systems for new employees. Now it turns out Microsoft leads this group. My dear friend Neil Barnett, he heads it. And the group's mission is to decrease job barriers and improve neurodiversity in the workplace. And for a company to be part of the Neurodiversity at Work Roundtable, you can't just check a box and say, yeah, we have some kind of a hiring program. No, you have to have programs that have proven to be successful. to be in this group. And they're the ones who created this job marketplace that connects neurodivergent people with companies that are committed to neurodiversity hiring program. If you look up, if you Bing neurodiversity career connector, you'll take a look at it. It features job listings by US employers seeking applicants across all the neurodiverse areas. autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, dyslexia, other conditions that are typically associated with neurodivergent and/or atypical brain functioning. It's a really great tool. Again, that's called the— I forgot it— Neurodiversity Career Connector.

So if a company is interested, right, so you say there's a process they got to prove, but do you have ways to share Like best practices, processes, you know, to companies that are not there yet?

Yeah, I mean, we post, we learn things, we are learning things all the time. We didn't get this right the first time. We, you know, we haven't done everything perfect every step of the way. But one of the things that we have been committed to is to be transparent about what's worked and what hasn't. And so if you go on our accessibility blog, you can see some of those stories. And what's even more important is on our site, you can see quotes from both the employees and the managers who hired them to really understand what it is that has worked for us.

Well, that's great. I mean, it— this is, this is something, as you said, 50/50 companies, and there's a lot more to do for sure. Uh, but if there are tools out there, I, I think companies are— and I think you said it best— companies are losing out on talent if they don't think about this as well. And, and, and you can even see with Jason's examples, right, there were companies that really lost out, lost out, right? Jason was acing every single skills test and then he failed the interview. It's almost like when you go to interview process today, that's part of the skills and then you got to fit within the culture of the company. That's probably where people with neurodiverse actually struggle because they would fit as long as there's just a little bit understanding of that they are just a little bit different, uh, and, and, and, but they, but they can, you know, they have some skills that, skills and, and, uh, and, and, uh, background that, uh, that can really help companies in, in different areas that, that others like myself, or, you know, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a whole different scenario. So I think companies should look into this for sure. And, and the question is, are there tools out there and, and resources that they can start looking at. And then I think, you know, especially like Fortune 500 companies, you know, if they can get— if they can get in and prove it, get part of the, you know, your roundtable or whatever, and become part of that whole hiring background, then that's going to make it a lot easier for, you know, people like Jason and others to go and find that job.

Right.

That's right. And, you know, The— I'd say 10 years from now, you're going to see a very different labor market that is going to play very well for people with specific skills than it is today. I think that you're going to be seeing, not just in the United States but globally, you're going to hopefully be seeing us move from a— what's called a diploma-based labour market to a skills-based labour market where you have employers that highlight the skills, not the pedigree. They say these are— it's one thing to say I need somebody with a master's degree or a bachelor's degree or something like that. That's very vague. It's another thing to say I need someone who is going to be able to help me be creative in ideating what my products are going to look like or help me be persistent in understanding what my customers are thinking about my products. That's a skill. That's not a pedigree.

Absolutely.

And so I think that once, you know, when the global labor market starts moving into that direction, people like Jason are the ones that are going to stand to benefit.

Absolutely.

So one of the things that you did mention was that there, you saw improved communication with the managers and with employees. Some people listening might not understand exactly why is it that communication improved Particularly when hiring neurodiverse, and part of that is really the fact that neurodiverse interpret language literally. They don't generally read between the lines. It is you say it; they interpret exactly how it's said or written. What have you? really done to actually help nurture that communication growth?

One of the things that we have discovered is that when we are coaching our managers on communicating with and collaborating with neurodiverse employees, everybody benefits, right? Because you're— what you're doing is you're teaching them how to communicate expectations clearly, you're telling them to avoid potentially confusing language, avoid idioms, don't simplify a question and just make it less technical. You know, you're— when you improve that for a person who's neurodiverse, Tell me any other employee that wouldn't totally benefit from that collaboration coming from that manager. I think that the people who have taken that training have said, yeah, I'm a better manager for it for my whole team.

Yeah, you're just able to communicate your expectations much easier so you don't have the scenario of missed expectations. you're saying one thing, but you really mean another thing. You're now saying exactly what you mean and what you're looking for. That makes it much clearer for everybody to understand what it is that you're going to expect from them. That makes a lot of sense.

I saw some comments, some feedback from managers who've gone through this. said things like, I see myself clarifying my intent more frequently.

Right?

So now think about that. That doesn't just help you in the business environment, that probably helps you in your personal environment, because people understand the bigger picture and not just the task ahead.

Yeah.

If you're more thoughtful about overall about your communication, your team benefits, And so do everybody else around you.

No, absolutely. Yeah, it makes sense.

So is, is there something you would particularly like to share or a point you would really like people to actually walk away from this particular conversation and to have them think on and, and go back to work and say, hey, you know what, we should, we should do this, or we should Employers should be looking at this as the business reason to do this.

They shouldn't be looking at this as, oh, this is something that we should do because it's something we should do. No, do it because if you don't hire in this way, if you don't support your employees in this way, if you don't communicate with your employees in this way, if you don't value the diverse perspectives that neurodiverse employees can provide, somebody else will. So if nothing else, think of it as a competitive advantage. Your company is going to benefit, your team is going to benefit, you're going to benefit, because diverse thinking is the reason that great things happen in the workplace and beyond. That's what I would leave companies with.

That's a great point. I mean, improving your company culture improves the morale of everybody, right? And, and if you are more inclusive, inclusive above what, what, what other companies are doing, but really generally overall, you include— you're including the, the different morale and different company culture that Everybody feels much better to be in. Absolutely. I like that.

Your company morale is going to improve, your products are going to improve, your, your markets are going to respond differently. It's just one of the many great things that can happen to your organization when you tap into neurodiverse talent.

Absolutely. Well, Adam, this has been a great conversation. I have I have not only, uh, got a lot of feedback, I also learned a lot, uh, and, and I'm gonna go back and think more about some of these things you've been saying, you know, be more specific around how you communicate expectations, think a little bit more, because I mean, I, again, I, I've known Jason for, I don't know, 6 months maybe, and it's just recently when we started talking about this that he's communicated that he's on the spectrum. It's not like you can see it in everyday life unless you are maybe even looking for it or whatever, and you often are not. I will definitely be thinking a little bit about this, and I've learned a lot about this. I'm going to be also speaking about this to even my company because I think it's really important. It's important for, as you said, morale, culture, And it's important to get, you know, healthy, comfortable employees in your company. Absolutely. Jason, Scott, any last comments from you guys?

Nothing for me. This has been wonderful. Thank you, Adam.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for coming on, Adam. I'm so glad that we were able to start Start this series and actually get this conversation out in the open. Uh, I would, you know, just like to add, you know, anybody that is on the spectrum that is listening, don't be afraid to approach your employer and come open with, uh, the fact that you are on the spectrum. You'd be amazed what'll happen if they— if, if they're open and receptive to it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And thank you guys for what you're doing here. I think this is going to be a great series.

Yeah, I am sure. Jason's put a, put a good list here together for, uh, uh, 5 more episodes. Uh, it's going to be every other Thursday. Uh, and so we are definitely looking forward to, uh, to what's coming next, and we're going to start promoting these episodes as well. And before we close the room, again, thanks Adam, thank you Jason and Scott for joining us here today. I want to thank everyone listening to this, and I'm pretty sure just as me, it's going to have an impact. You're going to think about this afterwards. This has been a great session. Again, this was Industry 4.0 Club on our Thursday room on people, process, and culture. If you like to have these conversations as much as we do, please join our scheduled events. We have them every week, Monday through Thursday. Right now we are on every other week, week. So Monday and Wednesday is next week. This week was Tuesday and Thursday, uh, at 12:30 PM Eastern, 11:30 AM Central, Monday through Thursday again. And you can find our schedule on our website, www.industry40hub.com, or of course also on LinkedIn. Look for the events that we announce on LinkedIn here. So again, thank you, thank you very much, Adam. I have enjoyed it. And, uh, You guys, uh, all have a good afternoon.

You as well. Bye-bye.

Thank you.