Episode 165: People Do Business with People with Andrew Wynn

Welcome to the Unstoppable Profit podcast. This podcast will give independent insurance agents all of the tools to grow your business and live life on your terms. Wherever you are today, if you're starting with nothing or well on your way to the success you desire, with the right people, processes and promotions in place, you will be unstoppable. And now I'd like to introduce your host, Mike Stromsol.

Greetings, everybody. Welcome to the next episode of the Unstoppable Prophet podcast. I've got a very special guest with us today that's going to share some information that is brand new to my mental marketplace. And they've got some cool stuff going on within the industry that's going to help you not only grow your business, create wealth so you can have more freedom, but it's going to give you more freedom. And if you're a fan of accounting, my condolences to you. If you're not a fan of accounting, you're in the right place today because, Andrew, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Mike. It's great to be here.

Yeah. I'm excited to learn more about Ascend and what you guys have going on. You've got some really cool stuff and I'm going to let you tell the story, but just so we can get to know you a little bit, tell us who you are, where did you come from, and how did you land in your current chair.

Sure, sure. Yeah. Well, I am not an insurance agent or, you know, by trade or by family or anything, and I think that's actually really important to lead with because what I am is someone who's built and worked in the technology industry for a long time. And what we're trying to do is not pretend like we know about insurance and as I think we've seen with some of the previous insuretechs, but to think about how we can actually apply technology with your expertise of insurance. And so, you know, we start with that very important distinction. But I grew up in Indiana, small town Indiana, went to college at Purdue, and after college I was actually in the Peace Corps for a couple of years, which was a great opportunity to sort of zoom out on, you know, really the entire world and decide where I wanted to be. And as a, you know, 22 year old who loved computers, looking at the whole world, California in 2011 was the place to be. And so I moved out to the Bay Area, not too far from where you are today, and started working in a bunch of different startups and small companies. And the first one I really worked at and where I actually met my, my co founder of Ascend was Instacart, the grocery delivery company when it was 20 people in a house, you know, very small. And that was kind of where we got our startup stripes, I guess, and learned about technology and things like that and really just trying to make something from nothing in the technology industry. And so did that for a few years. And then Praveen, my co founder and I started what we thought was a similar business. We wanted to create some of that early fun again. Right, because as companies grow they get a little, you know, you have to deal with stuff like accounting. Right. Which gets boring. So we said, never mind, let's, let's start something from scratch and so make.

It extra boring, right?

Exactly, yeah. And so the, the company we started was a marketplace for home services. And so we would essentially help people kind of like AAA for your home. And we wanted to work with folks to distribute it because we were like, we don't want to go and find customers and sell ads. And you know, we were very bad at what we tried. We were just very bad at it. So we're like, can someone else give this away for us? And that's how we got into insurance. We started working with, you know, high end brokers who were, you know, wanting to provide some additional services to their very wealthy homeowner clients and then eventually found ourselves working with MGA's and carriers who wanted to use our service, our proactive home care to be another touch point with their customer. Right. Really important as we know in insurance as well as mitigate risk. Right. So we did that, we ended up selling that business to an insurer, a startup insurance carrier. And that's where we kind of not just saw the industry of insurance, but the business of insurance. And what we realized very quickly is this is a tough, tough, tough business and it's impossible to do it. All right. So we saw that new Insurtechs had really good customer experiences and very bad insurance products as we've seen bear out and conversely that, you know, some of the legacy folks have had, have really great insurance products and coverage, but no customer experience to save their life. And I think, you know, we say company meaning it could be a carrier, could be an mga, it could be a broker. It's sort of true of all of them. Right. And so we wanted to build tools for the insurance industry that would allow folks to focus on, you know, what they are good at, which is the people element, which is, you know, going out and being that trusted Risk advisor to their customers and not worry about some of the infrastructure stuff like accounting, like payments. And so that's where Ascend came from.

And we tell people in leadership in any industry, specifically the insurance agency industry, you should only be doing the things that only you can do.

That's right.

So you take that off the plate. The things that we don't want to do, that we're not good at. You know, I would say accounting, give me a gun, I'm not interested. And like we were talking about before we went on today, I started in the industry before computers, so it was a while ago, but I'm grateful for it. It really taught me how to rate insurance policies manually, which helped me understand the back end. But you're bringing it full circle for all of us now. So you have your feet fully in the water, your hands fully inside of whatever you want to call it of the insurance industry. What's currently happening with insurance agent broker tools and what's going on based on your experience so far and what kind of tech is being built to help and complement the agent's position in today's world to ultimately, like you said, make the customer experience even better. Because I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's about, right?

That's right. Yeah. I think we're primed for the golden age, maybe the second golden age of agent distribution. Right. And I think we're going to go into this world of super agents who are so effective using technology much more than they've ever been. You know, whatever metric you want to measure, right? Whether it's premium per producer or something, right. Like sort of efficiency metric, those are going to go through the roof relative to where they were 35 years ago because of technology. And I think as we think about the industry, it was, you know, whatever 50 years ago, carriers, manufacturing policies, agents doing all of the distribution, right. And then we saw that first generation of agent focused technology with the amss, with some of that digitization which you surely saw and were a part of. And then the focus kind of shifted, right? And then we started investing in or technology, started investing in carrier focused stuff, right. And there's an important efficiency to be built there, right, in terms of like policy admin, but it maybe went a little bit too far and I think that's how we ended up with a lot of insurtechs and carriers focused on direct distribution, which didn't really bear out in the way we wanted it to. And so now that focus has, you know, the third wave is, oh, wait, that thing that we did 30 years ago of building AMS has got this huge, you know, sort of efficiency boom. There's probably the opportunity to do that again. And so that's what I'm really excited about. And we're seeing that throughout the industry. Right. Whether it's CRM, new AMs ascend with payments, you know, end to end to end, raters, everything to really make agents much more effective and again, do what they do best, which is focus on people, which no computer will ever be.

Able to do, a hundred percent. And, you know, insurance, I learned this years and years ago and I still believe it to be true. Insurance is a mystery.

And when people don't understand what they're dealing with, they may not want to deal with it. And we found that to be true in today's current world. But I'm looking at one of my favorite quotes from the late, great John Wooden of UCLA basketball fame, if you've.

Heard of him and Purdue.

Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be. Yes, and that's what I just wrote down and what you just talked about, the efficiencies and the further revenue per team member as an example. Continuing. The opportunities continue to go up. But, you know, like Will Rogers said, if you just sit there, you're going to get run over. So you've got to be willing to change. You've got to be willing to continue to go forward, to have that opportunity.

That's right.

And if you're not willing to change and not willing to go forward, you're going to get left behind. So you're breaking into some of the new frontiers in the insurance industry, infrastructure. Talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I mean, as we looked about a year and a half ago when we thought, well, what are some of these opportunities where we can help use technology to drive efficiency? It wasn't, as we talked about, we're not insurance people. It's not underwriting. We don't know what that is. Right. Like, I mean, we know what it is. We're not good at it. Right. We're not going to pretend like we're, we're not going to learn in a year to be the world's best underwriters or anything like that. So that wasn't our world. What we did know about, you know, from these early days of Instacart and these other companies was essentially E commerce. Right. Like, how do you make it easy for bot for people to buy the things they want online? And obviously, you know, the market is generally moving digitally, right? That doesn't mean you're going to. But what that doesn't mean is that you're going to just buy from a computer, your insurance, and that's it. You will buy from a person who's going to be enabled through technology. So how can we enable those people with the technology that the best brands and companies in the world have implemented? And so that's how we got to working on essentially checkout or payments for insurance. And so what Ascend does, and the way we're working today is for agents, right? And typically, you know, we start with people who are doing for their existing agency bill business. We power checkout. And what that means is the insured, that customer gets an email or a, you know, a portal page where they can go and pay for their insurance from Andrew's agency or whatever it is, right. And so it's not a third party. It's not the carrier, it's your customer. You've worked for them, it's your relationship. They should pay you. Right? But traditional agency bill is a huge pain, right? Then you have to take the cash and then you have to reconcile, then you have to net your commission, then you have to pay the wholesaler, the carrier, whatever, right. It's a lot of time and money. And so that, that isn't something that you need to be good at. And so what Ascend does is it powers us checkout, so the insured is paying you and then what we do is handle all of those funds flows on the back end. So we'll just net you your commission into your operational account within 24 hours and fund the market, whether it's a carrier, wholesaler, MGA, whether it's premium finance or credit card or ACH, within 48 hours. So that you kind of get the benefits of direct bill, meaning you get your commission instantly. You don't have to do any extra work, but. Or rather the convenience of direct bill. But the benefits of agency bill and that you own your customer and you're not giving up that very, very valuable real estate to a carrier, right?

Yeah. So is your primary, and correct me if I'm wrong, is your primary position.

In a retail insurance agency. Retail independent insurance agency.

Yep.

To help them with the agency bill functions.

That's right. And so that's where we focus today.

Not necessarily direct bill.

Well then it's interesting, right, because what we then see is like, okay, let's say I'm an agency and I'm in Florida and I do 20% agency bill because of all my ENS risk. Right.

Right now I'm probably working with a premium finance company. I'm probably working with a digital payments company. People are probably still dropping checks off, right. I'm sending invoices and then once all that money comes in, I have to figure out what to do with it, right? And so I probably have a bookkeeper who I'm paying to net that commission and pay those markets. Ascend combines all those things into one and makes it very, very simple. And so that's great for that 20%. But because we make it so easy where folks are able, we've actually seen people start shifting their direct bill to Ascend because they want to own that customer experience and they want to get their commissions up front, right? They want to get their commissions within 24 hours and not wait for a carrier to pay commissions and for there to be a billing issue. And so where they're able to, they're moving some of their stuff to Ascent.

How do the carriers feel about that?

Well, so it's, you know, tbd. We're figuring it out. You know, I get it. We're trying to work with them, but we're not trying to be.

Here's the other thing. So are they Totally.

Yeah. And we're. But we're not trying to be like we think that this industry will work better if, you know, something like this, right? Payments. Everyone just needs to get paid. That's all they care about, right? People want to get paid as fast as possible with as little work as possible. That is true for carriers. It's true of agents. And so if our technology, technology can facilitate that, it doesn't really matter, right? Like this idea between agency bill and direct bill, like if you can combine the benefits of both and collapse them, the carriers don't care because we fund them within 48 hours. Right. And they also don't have to deal with their, with the collections themselves, right. And running service centers or anything like that. So it's kind of a win win. But we very much believe. One thing we do believe is, hey, that checkout though, you know, that should be owned by the agent. Cause it's their customer, right? So that's where there's a little bit of rub. Cause sometimes they say, oh well, we want it. Why don't you power our direct bill, right? It's like, well, it's their customer, not yours.

So yeah, we have a little joke inside of UPP circles, but the summation of it is.

Listen, my carrier friends out there, I love all of you Unconditionally. However, they are control freaks, and they do want to be in control, meaning the carriers. And I get that. But truly, at the end of the day, they should also be practicing the same thing. They should only be doing the things that only they can do, which is protecting people financially. And when that claim rears its ugly head, taking care of them.

That's right. And look, you have to. That's exactly right. And I think you can look at other industries that aren't insurance, and they don't have the complexity, of course, but as parallels. Right. Like, could you imagine if you went to Footlocker to buy some running shoes and the person there, you know, evaluated your gait and you said, hey, I want to run a marathon? I said, these are supportive shoes, and they help you through that process. And they say, great, now send a check to Nike. You'd be like, what? Why aren't I paying you? Right. Like, you helped me. You worked on this. And, like, it's kind of crazy. And so we're just trying to create that same sort of consumer. And we sometimes forget this. Right. Because we're in the insurance industry, but trying to bring back that, like, standard consumer and digital experience that people do expect, whether insurance or not, to our world.

Yeah. I have to go off course here because you're an entrepreneur, just like I am. So, Shoe Dog, do you like to read books or listen to books?

I do. Very, very good book.

Oh, you've been through it. Me, too. That was. I heard you say Nike and immediately brought my mind to Shoe Dog.

Yeah. Yeah. What a guy.

That was awesome. I mean, fighting the federal government and winning. I mean, he didn't completely win, but, I mean, it was a big enough win, right?

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's get back on course. Speaking of winning, there's another comparison, if you will. That guy's name, Bezos, I think it is. Yeah.

Some little guy, Right. Boutique.

Yeah. He's got an online platform that, you know, makes it pretty simple to give him money.

Right. Something like that.

I mean, ultimately, that's what we're creating here for the insurance industry.

That's right. Well, I mean, look, once you've sold, you know, once it's so important once, you know.

To get out of the way when the sale is ready. Right. As a. As you know, Right. From being an entrepreneur and a salesperson, like, once the customer's ready to buy, don't ask for it, like, get out of the way. Right. Make it as frictionless as possible. And right now, in a lot of Insurance payments, like it's kind of another step. Right. It's like one other thing. Right. And so that's what we're trying to make simple. Just like Amazon.

Yeah, well, exactly. And at the end of the day, my 15 year old grandson, who's a high school football player, they're raising money, he sent me a text yesterday and he goes, hey, we're selling portions of an animal, if you like pork and you can buy tickets to get in and how many you want to buy, I'll have my dad, you know, send me his Venmo account and you'll be in super easy. I mean, that's the way the world's going.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's cool.

That's fantastic. So how do you think further if we haven't covered every base here? So how is the future of the Agent channel going to evolve based on this new technology and these new opportunities based on your views so far?

Yeah.

I mean, I think.

You know, every day I'm very focused on our little corner of it, right. Being Ascend. But as I zoom out, Ascend is just a small part of a much, much bigger and more exciting ecosystem that's happening. And like I said, I think we're entering into this sort of second golden age of agent focused distribution and technology. Right. And I think people are seeing that more than ever. Uh, whether that's venture capitalists or carriers or agents themselves, right. Everyone is knowing like this is the direction, right. We've tried these other things that didn't work. Let's try, let's double down on what was working and we'll probably see results there. And so the way I think that's gonna evolve is like, yeah, I mean the phrase I use all the time and I don't think it means a lot to other people, but it checks out for me is like the super agent, we're gonna have these folks who are commanding massive, massive books of business and they're gonna be very, very effective and efficient at what they do. They are going to be.

Probably location agnostic a little bit. They might have. They'll be niche specific, right. They'll be really good at their one thing. But like they don't need to just be in South Bend, Indiana or Elkhart, Indiana where I grew up. They could sell their product or the thing that they specialize into everyone. And so that's a whole different set of customer acquisition challenges. Right. And there'll be technology that helps with that all the way through, you know, servicing customer relationships. And I think it's really exciting.

Insurance is the first virtual product. Right. Like there's no reason we need. It's a virtual product that has long been sold brick and mortar. It doesn't need to be. Right.

100% agree with you. But anybody who's got any experience as an agent, the more experience, the more they probably believe this. Like they breathe. It's still a mystery. People are still under protected and we've all got stories upon stories upon stories of people that have bought online, did not buy the right protection, had a loss.

So of course, yeah, no, I agree with that. But so there'll be. How can we let humans, how can we have. Have the reach of online, but with the power of humans? And that is what is going to be the very special thing.

Exactly. And I wrote down what you said earlier. Enable people to do business with people. So you're to an extent, not that I'm a huge fan from a parental standpoint of enabling, but from a tech standpoint, you are enabling people to. To better do their business more easily and more profitably at the end of the day because of what you're creating at Ascend.

We hope so. We like to think so. What we think about is not the way we focus.

On the time aspect. Right. And the efficiency is not, you know, how much does this time of accounting cost you today? But what's the opportunity cost? Sure, it could cost you five grand a month in bookkeeping fees or maybe you're doing it yourself. Right. What is that? And say it's, you know, 10 hours a month. What. How much revenue can you generate in that 10 hours a month? If you are focused and disciplined and building. And that's much more than five grand. Right. And that's the real. That's the key.

And it's that word, focus. Follow one course until success every day. If you have to take away and losing that focus on being in the groove, if you will, to go deal with something else, that, that there's a lot more cost than the 10 hours.

Totally. And context switching is killer, you know.

Yeah, yeah. So. So what's the advantage of Ascend as you continue to emerge and gaining scale rapidly, say, versus some other people in a similar industry? In our industry.

Yeah. No, I mean, I think what we've seen, and we have a great amount of respect for a ton of the businesses that are adjacent or have come before us and they've built incredible businesses.

What we've seen resonate with our customers and kind of our approach too is, you know, we've essentially.

Combined a lot of those things into one. So it gives you again, it's back to focus. Right. Why work with this vendor for that, that vendor for that, this bookkeeper for that when you can use all in one? Right. And also similar to humans.

You know, like we just said, context switching is hard. Every time there's a handoff between a system or a system and a person or a person and a system, there's opportunity for breakage, there's opportunity for mistake. And so our great advantage is that we are that all in one platform that handles the payment from the customer, whether it's paid in full or if it's premium finance, it's all there. And then we also handle the payable two year commission to the carrier. And so there isn't. Well, what happened there? What is this XYZ that, you know, it's just all, it's all seamless. And so that's really our big differentiator and advantage. And like we didn't invent and obviously any of those things. We didn't invent digital payments, we didn't invent premium finance, we didn't invent aching commissions, but we combined it all together in a way that's really seamless and that's where today's value is fantastic and.

Point of differentiation is big in my world. From a sales standpoint, you just described a lot of ways that you are different. Is there anything else that differentiates you from the rest out there?

Gosh, good question.

I'd like to think there's a bunch of different things.

You know, I think we're. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, I think it's actually a mixed bag in all honesty. And I think it can be really good and also can be like they say.

Your weaknesses are your strengths in excess. We are really, I think, good and have a lot of experience and really sort of technology building. But as a result, you know, we don't necessarily understand insurance as well. So I think we will build the best technology and have the capability to build that. But we greatly, greatly rely on our customers on their feedback and on their input and on their ratings. And we call them and we email them. You know, we want to learn as much as we can because we don't know insurance. So whether that makes us different or not, we care not because we want to care, but because we have to care. And so that's maybe a slight differentiator.

Got it. Great stuff. So why One of the great questions, why?

Right, totally.

What is insurance? Infrastructure. And I've observed this over the years and, and the double whammy, if you will, being an independent insurance agent, you've got multiple why, why, why, why, why? And these carriers. One of the greatest jokes that we used to throw around was, hey, there's a change coming on this, right? It's going to be improved and updated, you know, third quarter. Right. And our internal conversation was of what year.

Why does insurance infrastructure need to be modernized? And what are some of the major issues with this modernization and really moving it down the road faster?

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a couple. There's a lot of reasons as to why. There's part of me that's probably like you, which is because it can and should. Right? Like, that's a good enough answer for most entrepreneurs. Like, it's an obvious thing in which, like, we can make progress here as, as a group of people. So we should do that. Right. Because we're sort of like by the.

Top of the hour. That would be good.

Exactly. Or faster the better. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's one part of it. But there's also like, you know, again, like, when we are myopically focused on these little parts of it, we sometimes forget the bigger picture, which is like, ultimately your job. Right. And our job to help with is to help people protect the things they care about. And you touched on it earlier. People are underinsured. People don't know the amount of insurance they need. Insurance is like a, is a pillar of our financial system broadly and probably, you know, civilization more. So like, it's not a, it's not a joke. Right. And you know that. But like, and it's really important to make that better. And so I, I think there's a duty in that actually, beyond just the should. So that's kind of the why on a sen. And then there's some. Or, you know, the why it matters. Plus then, you know, you have your own, like, entrepreneur. Like, because we've got to do this thing, right? Because we want to prove to ourselves that we can. So that's a little bit in there too.

But it's not just that is we don't like to be told what to do by anybody.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope my wife doesn't listen to this one. She would disagree with that.

I've already told her that. And then there's other conversations that follow that. But back to you.

Yeah.

But the challenges we face a little bit are just, you know, there's a lot of different Folks in this industry, and again, like, there is the duty of insurance and how we. The critical role it plays. And as a result, some people, I think, confuse that with. And thus it shouldn't change. Right. And so we have to sort of work with folks, not, not convince them, not tell them they're wrong, not telling they're stupid, they're doing the right thing, they're coming from the right place. Right. But work with them to say, no, we are actually, we actually want the same thing, which is to take this duty of insurance very seriously. How can we do better together? And that's just a slower progress, you know, process. Right. Like no one is ever all on the same page, all at the same time.

Yeah. And it's, it's always subject to further improvement. Always, always, always. Because something's going to be evolving whether we like it or not.

That's right, yeah. And we have to play the game on the field.

Yeah, exactly. That's a great statement. Play the game on the field and.

The game changes all the time.

That's why we've got to keep huddling up.

Right? That's right. Yeah.

Bench, whatever. So.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Great stuff. And so I guess my first question is because of respect for your time, you've shared a ton of information. I'll suggest for somebody either listening to this or watching this that may want to know more about Ascend and have a deeper conversation about what you can offer. How do they reach you? What should they do?

Totally. Yeah. So you can find us at most conferences, all that kind of stuff, but we're online at www.useascend.com and I very much meant what I said around like we rely need the feedback and questions and interaction with customers, prospects, everyone. Right. And so you can always reach me@AndrewsASend.com and I would love to hear from you and. Yeah. Share more about the product or just hear from you and hear what's important in your world.

Fantastic. Well, it's been an honor and a pleasure getting to know you more. So my last question for you today. Is there anything else that's critical as we continue to advance and help people protect everything that's so important to them or, you know, that's our job. Right. To protect people and everything they work so hard for in helping agents do that, you know, 80 to 90, close to 100% of the time and take the rest off their plates with the Ascend product. Anything else you'd like to add that we missed?

Yeah, I mean, I think similar to what I was saying earlier, like, you know, your weaknesses are your strengths and excess, like don't lose touch with the human element. Right. That is the thing that we cannot ever recreate. Don't sort of fall down such a tech rabbit hole and end up in, you know, whatever that I forget what it is from wizard of Oz or whatever, you know, la la land and where you kind of forget about what you're actually trying to do, which is to connect with and serve people. Tech is only ever an enabling tool. It'll never be a silver bullet. It'll never replace. And you know, just don't forget that.

I love that Saban enable people to do business with people. Yeah, I like it.

That's right.

Andrew, it's been an honor and a pleasure. Good to meet you virtually. I can't wait to meet you in person sometime. I know that will happen in our future. And if you have any questions About Ascend, use ascend.com Go ahead and spell that out for us.

E a s c-e n d.com and I'm andrewsa send.com fantastic.

Yeah, I know a lot of I need to see it because I'm totally.

I'm with you.

Right. And maybe you don't want to misspell it and end up somewhere we shouldn't be. We want to get right to the source.

That's right. That's right. Well, Mike, I really appreciate it. Thank you. It's been my pleasure and likewise, I'm looking forward to meeting you in person soon.

Yeah. Fantastic. Hey, if this is your first time on the podcast, welcome. I am Mike Stromsol. I am widely recognized as the leading speaker, author and coach for the independent insurance agency industry. You can find out more @unstoppable profit producer.com if you're interested in attending one of our virtual or live events. Our virtual events are available@uppfaststart.com and to attend one of our live events, Simply go to beunstoppablebootcamp.com Both events are designed specifically with our best money making strategies developed over 35 years of research in your industry 100% of the time as a proud independent insurance agent. All designed to help you grow your business, create wealth so you too can have more freedom to live life on your own terms. And don't forget again, if this is your first time, please go to Unstoppable Profit podcast.

Go up to the top. Subscribe so you don't miss one episode of the Game Changers like Andrew Nguyen and Ascend. This could be the game changer you've been looking for and we don't want you to miss any of the game changers out there. So make sure you subscribe. And we're available on all the networks out there. Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and of course on our YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and search Unstoppable Profit Producer. Get in there and just go to Videos. All of our podcasts are there for your visual and audio enjoyment as well. Andrew Nguyen, thanks again.

Mike. Thank you.

All right, everybody, thanks for joining us. Until next time, get out there and make a difference. Be unstoppable and leave no regrets. You got this and we believe in you. See you soon.

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