Dr. Uma Naidoo x Mona Sharma | LIVE Podcast Recording & AMA

So initially when there was a connection we thought we would be doing virtually. And then I realized that it was going to be here and there was. I mean, I could carve out time today because the rest. Rest of the conference is down.

Okay. I was so excited to.

Yeah, I was excited to do it.

So do you think it's more of a general. I mean, I listen to your podcast, but do you think more of a general conversation? How do you want to frame it?

I think we'll go into specific, have a really good sense of speaking to the government for bio and they want to know a little bit more. And honestly, even having you on, I was repeating myself that the wisdom that you have, especially as a woman, I think is something that's incredibly valuable. And now more than ever, I don't.

Know if you feel this way, but.

There'S talk about the perfect time and place for your work and for your book. The rise in adult issues among adults and kids, which I think is outrageous.

Yeah.

I have a nephew who's been diagnosed with addiction on medication. They're going within having, you know, tons of caffeine. My niece in Canada, so Toronto. The dietitians there follow the Canadian food.

Guidelines. Yeah.

And on that, aspartame is safer than splenda. So they're saying to her to, oh, try have as much aspartame as you want. It's just like what must be happening to her effect.

And now.

Exactly. We're so.

And I understand, you know, I guess in their mind there's been a longevity with studies on aspartame versus spun up. I think at the end of the day, these are common sense.

Yeah, right.

None of the music common sense. I mean, there's more research now. You know, a lot of people talking about alulos. And so far research has been okay. And I had to make a decision to use a smidgen of monk fruit in our little powder mixer.

But I did it very soon and.

I really try to get the sweetness from the other ingredients naturally. But it's also of the level that it wouldn't impact someone. However, you know, in conditions like anxiety, stevia, even though stevia is natural and all that process is an artificial sweetener, it can impact people with anxiety.

You know, it may not be as.

Bad for other conditions. So it's very much like what I in the US is.

And they're volunteers.

So, you know, we come up with an artificial sweetener and the moment it's popular, then we make a baking mix.

So instead of putting two cups of sugar.

I can put a whole cup of something in just. It throws, it throws everything off, all of that.

So what I really appreciate about your book Alto is the fact that you really go back to basics. Like there's foundations that all of us know to be true. But I think we're finally getting to a point where we're sick and tired of looking for the next quick fix or cure. There is no cure. There's no perfect red pill that's going to support us. I think we need to go back.

To what works and I appreciate it. Coming back to drinking milk.

It's, it's, it's just even if you have a little bit of overlapping, I'm not Gary. Yeah.

I think it's the secret of that mentality in this country that throws everyone out because people just do not know what he. And I think therefore helps to go back to some of those things.

Are you vegetarian?

I actually was born vegetarian, so my parents and, and outside of family, vegetarian. So I honestly, I cook anything.

Yeah. And three needs anything.

And then I went to culinary school. So I was okay cooking anything. I just don't eat it.

So yeah, I remain vegetarian.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't qualify that because people.

Oh, what was that you saying? You know, there's a big conversation at.

My conference around, you know, protein, protein.

The amount of protein, it is so divided. It's so divided.

And it's funny, I'm on a board with some medical doctors who are very much on this protein kick. But when I look at my, both of my ancestors, you know, the people who live the longest, they weren't counting rounds of protein. There wasn't this obsession also over food. Like if you go to den, one of the waitresses found out that I was a nutritionist and she, she said, what is your obsession with bread over there? Eating bread for breakfast, lunch and dinner here. Yeah, protein.

I don't know.

When I healed the ashram vegetarian, I grew mostly vegetarian. I believe we're live. Oh, we're live. Okay.

We're going to go live today.

I'm going to go. What does that mean for us?

So people are just witnessing conversation, getting.

A glimpse of what we're going to be able to, to share with them.

They won't ask me asking questions or they will.

Hi everyone. You can join us live. This is exciting because I have one.

Of my incredible mentors here with me today, Dr. Uma Naidu. Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

I was so excited.

You have been dying with follow up for so many years now. 1. Your medical background, your experience at Harvard, the fact that you were talking about food as medicine at Harvard, which I would love to dive into.

Also. You have so much wisdom in your.

Books that you deliver in a really tangible way in a world that we were just talking about is so confusing. A lot of people are so overwhelmed, including nutritionists. We're getting so much insight from so many different places. So we're going to dive into everything that's in your book today. But before we do that, this podcast is all about ancient wisdom in our modern world and really how we can become more rooted again. That's rooted in ourselves, our happiness and our health, and also our ability, the knowingness that we have to heal. So do you have any practices every day that you have that make you feel rooted in your health and happiness?

It's some simple practices that I sometimes struggle to adhere to, but I really push myself. I always drink a tall glass of water in the morning because just wanting to reset my body after sleeping. And I know that it keeps me calmer because being dehydrated in the morning, our bodies are naturally dehydrated instead of anxiety. And I did experience that level of anxiety a few years ago and I think it helped me to rebalance. I try to do at least 20 minutes of meditation in the morning because it also sets up my day in a better way then I notice the.

Days when I don't do that.

So those two things are very much empowering to just actually get up early. So I love seeing sunrise and if I can combine those with the sunrise and I literally have to leave my phone somewhere else because it's so distracting and I have to be baby. And they're much better about that.

So.

Because if not, I reach out and I want to check messages and get ahead of my day and it's not. It's not the thing to be doing.

No, you sucked in.

No, exactly.

Just like for user day.

And I have to ask this question, why every expert who sat in that chair mentions these beautiful rituals that all tend to be free.

Yes, that's free. And then.

Yeah.

And do you drink coffee?

Actually, I love coffee. I will have coffee earlier in the day.

I firm believe that that is what.

You put in coffee that matters. Of course, sourcing a better coffee and coffee bean is important too. But I also grew up drinking and learning my grandmother's golden chai, which is why I developed more food mixes because I think that kind of golden shri.

Has had its moment.

But the ingredients are so special.

And I love that flavor.

So it's a nice way to either start my day or end my day as well.

Absolutely.

That coffee is in there too.

Let's call that out right now. So moodfood Mixers is a beautiful mix that you've developed for grounding for mental health, for mood optimization using really pure ingredients. I absolutely love.

Thank you.

To try that.

So on the flip side, I think.

That so many of us come to this journey because of our own personal healing stories. So you have one of those.

I do, yeah.

It was one of. Definitely one of the aha.

Moments that drew me more deeply into industrial psychiatry. You know, I was. It was pretty healthy.

I had.

Was involved in running my clinic, which I had. You know, I'd been doing this work in nutrition and mental health for a while in an unstructured way. So in an outpatient setting as part of the clinic. But I had the opportunity under good mentorship to form my own clinic and clinical services. And lo and behold, I found out into running my clinic that, you know, I find a lump and I was otherwise feeling healthy. I would probably say stress was positive because there's something about when you're reaching or feeling successful, stress also increases.

And I haven't figured out that the.

Cure for that yet. So I went from lump to line IV line within about seven days because I was very blessed to have excellent care. And one of the things I realized when I just felt extremely. The anxiety was built up because I was facing chemotherapy and I knew the.

Medications and so knowing that was actually even worse and the side effects.

But I had to find a moment to actually ground myself and really root myself in what I grew up culturally doing what I was saying to my patients every day. And I had to remind myself to do that for myself. So I said, you know, rather than.

Maybe I'll peel back on coffee and.

Go deeper and try golden lattes for that time. Grandma's golden chai and golden milk. I will prepare my meals at home because it was safer anyway. I made small adaptations that I couldn't manage and that I knew but did not grow up, maybe. And then every week my doctors would say to me, what are you doing? We want to know so we can tell other people. Yeah, but take a manual lunchbox. Nobody prepared for that day.

And they were genuinely engaged and interested in my well being because they knew I wasn't experiencing the side effects.

Right.

They saw you healing of the medications. They saw me healing as I was getting the chemo instead of being nauseous and Sick and developing really horrendous side effects that I. Sometimes it was painful to see other people going through it, but it proved to me how powerful this is in an unexpected moment. I wasn't looking to prove this to myself. So it really has been not only one of the aha moments, but it became the blueprint of the work I do. And I think very important just to live through it yourself in that way. You know, I knew these little tips about managing anxiety. I knew ways to uplift my mood because I'd kind of taught myself those things from growing up. I think we chatted on that earlier. But this was important for the food.

I say all the time, you know, we never know why these things happen to us, but through these lessons, you and I can both say, nothing else matters when you don't have your health.

Absolutely right.

And so it's so important that we share stories. Time stops. Nothing matters. And I think that the fact that you're able to go, go into an office, other people watching to see the foods that you were eating, that it wasn't a crazy protocol. You were trusting in nature. A lot of the part of your heritage that you grew up with eating real whole foods. Right.

Meaning the spices and the herbs.

Yeah.

Just to flavor the food.

Absolutely.

And the healing properties of those and the benefits of those. It's interesting, recently, someone I went for to get my hair blow dry, and the person was so complimentary, said, oh, you have such beautiful hair.

Me too.

And in that moment, I didn't say it out loud because I don't want people to feel bad, but I said to myself, I'm so grateful that my hair grew back, you know, so it's those little things, you know, without your help.

Yeah, there is.

Honestly, there's no life.

So on the flip side, for some of our listeners who they understand when they kind of, they get uprooted, we talked about the world of health and wellness right now being so complicated that it's almost halting. People, they're not knowing, they don't know what decisions. Right. So do you notice now, having gone from that position to healing yourself, growing back this beautiful hair, do you notice are there practices in your life or time, the seasons, that you feel uprooted as a wake up call to go back? And what are some of those practice practices that cause you to feel uprooted?

The. I think that. I think that one of the things I experienced when I wrote my second book, calm your mind with food, is the success, which I was very grateful for. My first book caused a lot of anxiety because it was almost as though the success of it made me more anxious about what I was doing for the second book, how I was writing, what was I sharing. It's an interesting thing. I wrote about it in the book, that it can spiral in a certain way. And I really had to go back to rooting myself in healthier practices and reminding myself, what did I do when I was sick. But, you know, what are those things I remember? What are the things I need to prove to myself? Eating is a very big part of it. Stress management is another. And I feel like for me, stress management is an ongoing cycle. I have to remind myself of that all the time. But if I would name one practice, it goes back to some of those basics, healthy eating, paying attention to proper sleep, none of which in my life are completely perfect. I will share that openly. None of us is perfect. But it also helps me to understand what my patients are going through.

Absolutely.

Because we're real people. And this, eat this, not that dilemma that we live in is very hard.

Yeah. And I wanted to kind of hover on that for a second because you now know the importance of food and how you feel now that we're understanding that there's so much more of a connection to our food and our mood and our mental health. You know, we're not making. It's something that's still not at the forefront of mental health care. So, for example, I know when I went to my doctor and I talked about anxiety, there was no, no mention of food. There was actually no mention of what was happening in my life. It was more just like, okay, well, you know, maybe try to get some more sleep, try to exercise, and here's a prescription of something that you could try. And it's to no fault of their own. But, you know, I'm just to this day shocked. I became a nutritionist 15 years ago, and the fact that for 15 years we've been talking about the connection to our mood, to our gut microbiome.

Doctors haven't had training in this.

So can we maybe talk about this missing link between food and mental health? And do you feel. Are doctors coming around to the. To understanding the importance of food?

I think I'll. I'll start with the last question first, because the. This year I was very, very excited that the American Psychiatrics association, which is also our largest national international meeting, because.

We have people come from all over.

The world, hosted a theme that was really more lifestyle related. And lifestyle, of course, implies nutrition, proper sleep, and I was very encouraged by that because what it brought into focus was nutrition, lifestyle, the pillars that you and I learned.

I lived it as well. But I was encouraged that they were.

Brave enough to bring that theme forward. Now at the conference, there were also.

Those who were saying, eat more protein.

And you know, if you don't eat.

Red meat, you whatever, you know, using.

Some insulting words, you know, you have.

To eat this, you have to eat that.

And again, that was so in every.

Meeting, in every organization, you some of that.

But there were also a lot of.

Doctors because only 20% of our medical schools teach nutrition.

So, you know, people like you and.

Me have, we have studied it in some format. There were also those who are more balanced.

So even if they hadn't fully studied.

Nutrition, they were talking about lifestyle factors, they were bringing forth practices, integrated work that they've done, meditation, you know, and things that were just beyond only pharmaceuticals. And I thought that was very encouraging. I'm hoping that it will lead to more of this mental health, because you're absolutely right, Mona. It's not mainstream.

This is not how psychiatrists are leading.

They're leading with prescriptions. They are even. They're not looking outside of the box.

So, you know, my mission is really to help evolve that and have that even with mental health providers, not just the doctors, but all mental health providers are more inclusive of other, other practices.

There's an epidemic of anxiety and anxiety related disorders amongst adults and children. I can think, gosh, you know, a handful of my clients who have kids under the age of 10 who are diagnosed with ADD.

And given a prescription. And I think that there is time and a place.

We always have to say that each.

Person, each person, each child is individual.

Yeah. And yet here you're mentioning. So there is more awareness. I know, you know, it could just be the algorithm that I'm part of, but parents are catching on to the connection of the impact of foods to their child's mood. When kids go to birthday parties and they eat a lot of those excess calories and those ultra processed foods, we witness the impact of those ingredients on our child's behavior. So knowing this, you know, can you talk to us maybe a little bit.

More about the connection to what those.

Foods are doing to our gut microbiome.

So let's start with those ultra processed foods, because I like to say to people, if you think that mood cannot be impacted by the food you eat, stop for a second and ask yourself if you've ever taken a headache pill and what many people have. And I Said, well, well, what happens? Do you take and rub it on your head because you make a little.

Joke of it and they say, no.

You know, what do you mean? I follow it.

I drink some water and once I.

Start to think about it, I try to draw the connection between the food that we eat, that goes to our digestive tract, works on the brain, works on neural tissue, goes through our circulatory system.

But by breaking that down, it's obviously.

Much more complicated than that. It's a way to make that and then start to talk about things that you heard about.

And I know the audience has heard.

About that connection, which I like to say also explains that mood food connection. So when we're eating ultra processed foods, junk foods, fast foods, this sort of.

Standard American diet called sand for a.

Reason, byproducts of digestion are negative and toxic in the gut microbiome, which houses colons of microbes.

But of those trillions of microbes, there.

Are the good microbes and there are also the bad microbes.

So when we're eating the less healthy.

Foods, bad microbes are fed, and their byproducts are toxic polysaccharides which damage the gut lining, which is very delicate and.

A single cell layer thick.

And over time, what I see in my practice is as that lining gets.

Damaged because someone is living their lives.

They'Re not aware of it. You see an uptick of symptoms of anxiety or more severe mood or more lack of focus. And then someone gets an ADHD medication. So I think that understanding that that process will happen over time, that those breakdown products start to cause inflammation, damage something that people call leaky gut. And now I will have patients who.

Tell me, I said this to my.

Doctor and they rolled their eyes and.

Said, it doesn't exist. It's so interesting because microbiome science has.

Moved immensely and I'm still surprised when.

I hear that, but it's unfortunate.

So it's very real.

It was just last year I wanted to experiment.

So going down the functional health way.

And working with emotional practitioners and also going to.

And just see what would happen.

And I wanted to do some testing on my gut microbiome. And I talked to them about issues that I was having. And the gastroenterologist literally said to me, you know, you gotta stop reading all that stuff online. Leaky gut is not a real thing. And I just thought to publish what must happen to people, right? Because you go in with a little dose of confidence and just wanting to have an open conversation. We have to be able to ask about these things. And I love what you said because I think that a lot of people, when we talk about whether it's add, adhd, anxiety or stress or worry, they're not sold, they're not issues of the brain necessarily.

They can be, they can be, but it's not. It's not. For example, you mentioned something about anxiety. And anxiety is one of the big ones that hides itself in many other conditions and not only could be masked, but symptoms may present in a different way. You mentioned anxiety earlier and in fact, this increased statistic was proven in research and published in the Lancet that anxiety Is increased by 25% worldwide through the pandemic. So we know it is much worse and we need more solutions. But I think that understanding the connection of what we're eating and doing and how we are living is a way to find our way forward and lower all of the level of anxiety. Because Covid had an interesting effect. One of the effects that it had in mental health is it sort of uncovered the crisis that we knew was there.

Right.

So I think that just having more solutions is so much more valuable and we need to be having the conversation and educating those providers who are not seeing the literature and don't realize the microbiome sciences is, is moving along very rapidly.

So can you talk to us about what you mean? Then in your book you discuss how anxiety and depression, their whole body disorders, not just brain disorders.

You know, it used to be that mental health was considered an above the neck concept. You know, the, the kind of not fun names that people would call psychiatrists and stuff like that. But you know, we've learned over time and one of the things, one of the ways that we've learned is through the connection of the gut microbiome that the gut and brain come from the same embryonic cell line in the developing embryo and they divide path and they kind of these fraternal twins because they've come from the same cells, but they're different organs and they're connected by the vagus nerve. So now we understand that even if, whether it's your gut, whether it's your brain, whether it's your adrenal gland, maybe it's soft tissue injury, all of our body is connected and everything is, you know, I would argue the brain is the most important organ because without the brain your body cannot function and in certain cases cannot move, etc. So it goes through the brain, but it is all connected. And the more we understand that, the closer we will be defining more solutions and Mental health because I speak towards, you know, nutrition, nutritional psychiatry, but lifestyle and metabolism are huge parts of it too. And, and they, you know, for me, it's this triad, its nutrition, lifestyle and metabolism and how those interact in each person's body. And it's different over time. I've understood how much more personalized it is. So, you know, I'm big, a big fan of microbiome testing, except it's, I'm not sure about in California, but I know it's not necessarily covered in regular insurance. Right.

So yeah, I love that triad. And you use the word metabolism, which I really like because I think that metabolism, when we look at ancient wisdom, if it's Ayurveda or traditional Chinese medicine or so many others, they look at what we're metabolizing, how we're metabolizing, and they're really taking a whole person, whole body approach to healing. So I really appreciate that. So maybe for our listeners, I think that we've all been touched with somebody who has experienced a lot of sadness or overwhelm or anxiety or even depression. Depression, I know, runs in my family. You mentioned Covid. So can we maybe break down some of the pillars that people need to be aware of, you know, before they're looking for a solution or the quick fix that you and I have mentioned a few times now, going online and finding the one supplement, that's the cure all, or this way of eating, that's the cure all. You're not eating 150 grams of protein. That's why you're depressed.

That's why you're depressed. Right.

Let's talk, break it down. So you mentioned Covid. So there, I'm thinking there's isolation, there's lack of time in nature, there's lack of connection to other human beings. I'm also thinking of the way that people are eating and you mentioned processed foods also. What else would you add to that list when you're considering these mood disorders?

So Covid, even though it's over, has had long lasting effects in mental health. Long Covid and the subsequent consequences of not only just how people are thinking, their cognitive health, how they are living, has had a long term effect. A very fascinating study done by the MRI center and MRI researchers at Mass Journal showed in Covid, because you mentioned personal connection and social isolation, that people who did not have a COVID infection, so they were otherwise healthy, showed neuroinflammation.

Wow.

And they associated that, of course, you know, more studies need to be done, et cetera, but they associated that they saw it on actual neuroimaging with the level of social isolation that we had, being disconnected from our peers, our friends, our family. And I thought that was fascinating because it really spoke to something you read about the blue zones, you know, the power of nine and sort of like having your tribe, having the connectedness. But Covid also had a massive effect on the amount of processed foods that we ate. When store shelves were empty In March of 3:20, not all store shelves, but Americans started to see that. I think everyone, because that is not something we are very fortunate in this country that most of us don't experience that. And people rushed out process sales increased and they stayed high. They have remained high. So that changed. Even though social connection came back. There's a whole many years that certain generations didn't experience graduations at school, didn't experience things at college. People lived in this work from home mode. There's even a really interesting condition that developed where people developed what they called zoom dysmorphia.

Oh my.

So someone would be on zoom right. All day and they would dislike how their nose looked or they would. They would then start to seek plastic surgery. Now, this wasn't heavily researched, but it's mentioned anecdotally and discussed. So these weird things that came out of COVID but food and how we were eating was one of them. The level of anxiety increased and people were just socially disconnected. And that has. Those effects have lasted and we are still walking ourselves back from them. Even though the infection was taken, you know, in that that particular pandemic has. Has mostly receded.

I was looking at pictures last night of my daughter who was in preschool with her mask on every single day. And now I'm aware a lot of my kids who are older, they miss their graduation. And then here with the LA fires, they're missing another opportunity. So it's just like, oh my gosh, these poor kids are going to go through so much. We've got to get ahead on supporting them. And there's also the rise of CPG brands. You notice that since COVID like the amount of processed food labeled healthy.

Keto, Paleo, this every, every single label. And it's very confusing because some of those labels have very little to do with healthy nutrition.

Yeah.

And they have to do more with conveying to the consumer a health benefit, which is not true. You know, and I think that that really spoke to the rise of the processed foods.

Absolutely.

Processed foods.

So let's dive into some of those ingredients that you talk about in your book. That we should just avoid. And I really want to own in on them with you. I think it's so special coming from you because we hear about these ingredients online. There's a lot of awareness happening right now around food dyes and stuff like that, which is great. It's going to take a long time before a lot of these unsafe ingredients are going to be taken out of foods until we can prove that they're dangerous. So your ownership, I'm talking to all the listeners right now, comes with how you buy foods. So let's talk about some of the ingredients when I flip over the package to the important ingredient label side of things. Let's start off with the sugars first. So glucose and fructose and high fructose corn syrup. Let's start there and then I'll let you lead into some others.

So sugar is hidden in most of our foods, even our savory foods like ketchup and pasta sauces and salad dressings. I educate people that 4 grams of sugar is 1 teaspoon because it turns out that our food labels aren't grams, but we measure and cook and bake and recipes in the US are pounds and ounces. So honestly, if you don't understand what the grams mean, it's because you don't practice that way.

Such a good point.

Right?

Yeah.

So 4 grams is 1 teaspoon. So I have them learn that when they're shopping the ultra processed foods. And oh, so more about sugar though, let me not get distracted. So not only do they have other names, there's a repository online where there are 262 other names for sugar on food labels. Brown rice syrup is my favorite to quote because most people think, oh, brown rice must be healthier, but brown rice syrup is just sugar. I think understanding that and no one is saying don't eat sugar, I don't want to mislead people. Having a fruit, having some berries, sugar and vegetables, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be that you exclude it entirely. It's just where you obtain it from. Right? It's, it's, it's this, the candy and the, the, the other things that we are concerned about. And the high fructose corn syrup. So understanding that is significant because sugar does drive inflammation. So be careful about where you get it from. And just like there's a huge protein conversation, there should be a conversation around can we consume less sugar through these processed, ultra processed foods. Certain fast food french fries have sugar because you don't taste it, but the sugar was proven in research and development that it sells more. And why? Because we want more. Have you ever upsized your fries and then you think the next day at lunch, oh, I really should get more of those fries. It's a real thing in our body. Right.

It's.

It really does tap into our cravings. It's been researched to do that. So I say to people, vote with your dollars. You know, you can choose what you buy because there isn't necessarily. So I agree with you. The movement around removing food dyes will happen and I'm supporting it. And over time that will roll out. But right now it still exists. Not the. Necessarily the dyes, but this. These foods are still not ideal. And the only way we can know that is by understanding the labels better and deciding what we can buy. Because no one's going to tell us.

Yeah. I think also if you really just decide, you're going to make a conscious decision. When you go to the grocery store, if you see any of those sugar ingredients to just put it back down. If you don't buy it, you can't eat it. And I think it's especially important for our children because the marketing that goes behind a lot of these children's foods, including this one brand that I want to like a lot, organic ingredients. They include fiber veggies and some organic ingredients, but there's five different types of sugar that you can find in the ingredients. So just like, be firm. I know it takes a lot of willpower. I think as a parent, it does take.

And I really understand what you're saying, because when you've bought it and it's in the home, it's hard to not eat it. It's hard to do that. And I think there's also the struggle that parents have where the child wants something. I also feel like it's not a perfect solution, but involving children in food buying decisions early on, taking them to farmers markets, if you have access, taking them to farms, understanding, maybe have a school, community garden. I think that connection can be understood early. Where food comes from and the connection to whole real foods that come from the ground or whatever they eat, understanding the food ecosystem, even having them be involved in shopping, but taking them to the protocol.

I know. Yeah.

Taking them to the, you know, having them shop in a certain way.

Yeah.

You know, because it is hard once.

The item is purchased and it's in front of you.

Because it's something I talk about called environmental controls, which is. We talk about this in. In individuals struggling with dementia. Also something that can be Impacted by food. But if you need to keep them safe and they're still living with family, you know, you don't want them to fall or you don't want them to eat or do something that's unsafe or you want to be there. They turning on the stove. Similar thing with food. You know, all those cookies we stacked up on over Covid need to be turned.

I always say to people, just imagine, you know, Dr. Uma or I myself are with you in your kitchen, and we were just looking at what was in your cupboards.

Right.

What would you want to hide from us? Is probably something you should skip.

That's right. What would I want to hide? Probably the popcorn. I stopped uniformly bad. But it's definitely a snack that, you know, you can sometimes eat too much of or, you know, some processed potato chip that was bought for an event that, you know, was left over and probably should have gotten rid of. But, you know, things that I'm not a perfect eater, but it's more that I think having a sense of balance on what we do is so important. Like I say depends all the time. You know, you might come across a cupcake because you've taken your child to a birthday party and that's what everyone is eating.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you have to eat it or don't have to eat it, but you can always course correct at your next meal. You know, there's. There's also what we talked about, social connection, people enjoying something together. Food is something people enjoy, but over time, you want to start to make healthier choices. So I'm not the kind of person who's gonna say, don't eat cake on your birthday. If you'd like to do that, just don't eat cake every day, three times a day.

You got it. Yeah.

It's important to have that balance in life because if not, we become so rigid that we don't enjoy anything.

I think part of what you mentioned also when you go through a bit of a detoxification period from those foods, you recognize the control that they have over. I will say over your brain, body.

And your body and your brain. You're absolutely right.

Yeah. You stop craving those foods. I noticed when I went to the ashram and I went through that very first trip for my healing, breaking up with processed food. I literally felt like a crutch, like, oh, my gosh, this is really hard. How am I going to do this? And I didn't realize until then the control that food or those food ingredients had over me. And I'd say working with my clients, that's probably the hardest hurdle to get over. Not buying it anymore, getting used to not consuming those foods with the ingredients that they know could potentially be harming them or impacting their mood.

Yeah, it's, it's a very real thing.

It's a very real thing. So what are some of the symptoms? So if people are wanting to, you know, understand what are some of the. How do they know that there's these silent kind of harms to their mental health? What are some of those ingredients?

I think it's important to know that the colorants, the dyes, the ultra processed food stabilizers have actually been shown in. There's a food thickener called carboxymethyl cellulose and it was shown in 2022 in an animal study to disrupt the microbiome. So much so that those mice couldn't produce short chain fatty acids in the microbiome, which is something we want our food to produce as it's being broken down. Because that's short chain fatty acids are healthy. They help heal the gut, they help fend off inflammation. So think about ultra processed foods as just a group that you want to slowly cut back as you can, you know, really be thoughtful, mindful about where your dollars go along with that are. Where do you find sugars? So there are hidden sugars in those savory foods I mentioned, but they're also sodas, you know, iced teas, iced beverages that have added sugar in them or they have the next group, artificial sweeteners, many of which are not great for mental health because they disrupt the microbiome. There are limited, few that in small amounts are actually okay. And stevia, I will say, even though it's generally okay to have it in small amounts here and there. And by that I mean don't buy the baking mixes and bake with them. That's just replacing sugar with something else. But a tiny bit here because you want something sweet. My favorite is actually honey because honey has other properties. And there are a few artificial sweeteners that are okay and not as bad as TVA can actually worsen anxiety. Just so people know. And it's been shown in research. So if you are using stevia, maybe think about that cutting it back, finding a different way to sweeten your tea or whatever you, you know, are using to sweeten. Even cinnamon has, you know, that's the reason I put it in more food mixes, has natural sweetness and then other benefits. So I think thinking that way is going to be important. The wrong types of fats, hydrogenated oils, trans fats, those are the ones to avoid. So you find them in things like shelf stable baked goods. We know about fried foods. This is. It's been shown in research to drive depression. But cutting back on those and finding fun ways to cook instead. You know, oven roasting, air frying, finding. Finding ways that you can avoid deep frying is important too.

Do you have an air fryer?

I use an air fryer. I use it for certain things. And I had to be careful about checking all the consumer reports and all that.

Plastics.

No, exactly. That's right. All of the, you know, there's all always some guidelines about it, but. And I use it for crisping up certain things and foods like that. But I try to, I try to not depend on it. Yeah, I've written recipes for use in the air fryer because for me it's about people not deep frying. And how can I get them? It's almost like if someone's drinking soda. How can you get them to a diet soda? How from the diet soda, how can you get them to a flavored water? From a flavored water, the work bag. How do you get them to water? Right. So it takes its stages. It's stages of change.

Yeah. Okay, good to know. So we've talked about the gut microbiome, then hydrogenated oils and sugars and fake sugars, also food dyes and additives. What's happening to the brain when we're consuming those foods?

The breakdown products damage the lining. We mentioned that earlier. And as you get leakage into the circulatory system, the inflammation in the gut really does spread to inflammation in the brain, which is in over time damaging your neurons, your brain cells. Neuroinflammation is one of the conditions that actually drives the worsening of these mental health conditions. There's also the mechanism that in your gut, two very important things to know. In your gut microbiome are 90%, 95% of your serotonin receptors and serotonin production, but also 70% of your immune cells and immunity. So there's so many functions that that gut microbiome taken care of, we don't even think about. When you have the setup of inflammation. It's one of the mechanisms that drives mental health symptoms. And food, those unhealthy foods all cause this. They feed the bad microbes, they cause inflammation. So you have oxidative stress on the body, you have inflammation being set up in the gut, you have damage to the cell lining in the gut. Microbiome. And over time, you who develop neuroinflammation, and where I see it clinically is an uptick of symptoms. So how do you course correct that and how do you start to eat differently to help heal your gut? Because the whole body is connected and it's a. It's. It's a different. It's a chronic, insidious form of inflammation. It's not the kind, not the inflammation that happens. You're playing tennis and you twist your ankle, fall and scrape your knee. That's acute inflammation, which is important for healing. This is the more silent kind that can be more damaging.

That is such a great point. We spend a lot of time talking about digestive symptoms and issues and bloating and gas and diarrhea and all those things and leaky gut. But neural inflammation. We don't necessarily think that the meal that we had last night could be causing my brain fog and my moodiness the day after or even two days after. Right. And that's such an important concept because, you know, right now, with longevity being such a buzzword, hearing about the rise or, I don't know, diagnoses that we're hearing about Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and stuff like that, would you agree that it's our decisions in the here and the now that are going to prevent the accumulation of neurotoxins in the future and inflammation of the brain?

That's an excellent point because one of the things that some, some research will talk, will talk to you about in relation to cognitive disorders, and we don't have a cure for Alzheimer's, but, you know, there are ways that you can fend off neuroinflammation in your brain early on simply by taking the step to make healthy choices, starting now. So wherever, whichever point you're at, you can start right now to try and help yourself. These conditions are rooted in kind of neuroinflammation and that mechanism. But you have the choice to eat healthier, make your food cleaner, take these steps to start to help yourself. And one of my colleagues even talks about just eat healthier to fend off. Just like we have nascent cancer cells in our body, most people walk around with nascent, inactive cancer cells. Your habits, your nutrition, your lifestyle can either drive those, that's why stress is so important, can drive those and turn them into cancer cells or not. And same thing with neuroinflammation. You might have these sort of inactive cells in your brain that could be driven towards a negative consequence, or you could Help them heal by how you eat and how you live.

Did you have any understanding of your genetics prior to getting cancer? You're talking about epigenetics?

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't. But it turned out when I did get testing, as suggested by my doctor at the time, and there wasn't necessarily for me, fortunately, any kind of linkage there. But I think that all these conversations are so important because they're related. They all are connected.

Absolutely. I think it's important to understand your genetics, any, any information that you can use as fuel for your own health that will drive better decisions. And I'm a big fan of living your life. You know, if you're going to drink a Coca Cola and it's going to bring you so much joy like you're a three year old child, the impact of that Coca Cola could be beneficial. But every day, you know, that's going to fuel.

I agree with you.

I'm not saying drink Coca Cola, you.

Know, whether it's a birthday cake, whatever it might be. There's this really fascinating study done using spices and they found that the way I'll explain it is more sort of in everyday speak, but basically when you ate something and you were stressed about eating it and felt terrible, actually impacted the absorption.

Fascinating.

And so it's true, like if you have it, enjoy it, move on, always say course correct at the next drink or next meal rather than stay trapped in. I'm feeling bad about it because those things, those feelings don't help you and they don't make you feel good.

Women tend to hold onto that guilt a lot longer. Right. We're thinking about it for a day. Why did I eat that yesterday? It's like, oh, that's the energy that you're carrying with you. One of the most common concerns I get from my clients, especially lately, is brain fog and low energy despite their best efforts. And we talk about this checklist that people have. I'm exercising, I'm hydrating, I'm eating some produce and stuff like that. Can we talk to us about the inflammation that goes behind that? Maybe it's not something that just showed up, but it ties back into that accumulation that you've mentioned.

Yeah, brain fog is fascinating. I'm actually developing a brain fog rating scale because I do think that it's so key for us to understand where we're at and see what we can do to make things better. One thing that I mentioned was long Covid has had and continued to affect some people. One of the things I Hear about a lot is brain fog. But then there's just the everyday human that feels like they almost cannot think clearly. And I think that food is part of the conversation as a stress, as are sort of these everyday things that people are just living with, whether it's environmental. You know, in Los Angeles, was the fires somewhere else, maybe different happening, that it's really stressing the group as a whole. What is the path forward? I think that it's not just one thing. I think it's a combination of lifestyle along with nutrition being the pillar. Because we know that nutrition is the number one driver of illness that we can remediate and that we can walk ourselves back from. I think you're a great example of that. You know, eating and living in a different way brought back your health. And I think that finding a way to think for a moment, like, what have I done differently? I'm experiencing this brain fog. Did it start during COVID quietly, as I was eating ice cream every night. I hear this all the time. You know, we dealt this habit. We started getting two tubs of ice cream every week and we continued to leave it in our instacart cart or whatever it was. I've heard this repeatedly that there was a habit that people haven't. So what have I done? Our instacart. Whatever it was. I've heard this repeatedly that there was a habit that people haven't. So what have I done? Because sometimes it's the things we are seeing and doing that are easier to grab onto. And food is one of them. I know whether I have cookies or chips or whatever it is in my pantry, I also know if I have more apples and oranges and just fresh whole foods, what is it that has changed and can I start to tweak that? So I like people to think about. I like to break it down into what I call so protocol saw. So it's swap ad walk. And the swap is because so many people are experiencing this almost fogginess. What can I swap that I'm eating that I know is not healthy? So it could be the extra cups of coffee with a lot more creamer and lots of sugar sweetener, whatever it is. Or maybe it's that ice cream, or maybe it's the glass of wine, or maybe it's. Now I'm doing hybrid work schedule and I order out with my friends at lunch every single time. Whereas before COVID I was packing lunch five times a day. What is it I can swap? And sometimes it's just one thing. And most People are aware of something bothering them that they're doing that they know is not they want to change. Let's say then add is adding. And it's so easy to add more plants to your diet. Add in plants, colors, textures, helps your microbiome. Or maybe you are vegetarian and you need to pay attention to the amount of protein. I'm not saying the excessive amounts, but amounts that you need for your body. Or maybe you are vegan and you need to check whether you have enough vitamin B12 because B B vitamins are brain vitamins.

Yeah.

So it's adding in something in your diet. And I usually go towards food but for someone else it might be I've stopped meditating, I no longer do my breath work and w. I use the category walk for broad category of what does movement mean to you? What. What can you bring back? Because we know that exercise is very closely related in research to better mood lowered anxiety. So I know that encouraging someone to engage in some form of movement is going to help them. But what do they want to do? Do they want to start with yoga? Do they want to do Tai chi? Do they, do they want to count steps? What works for them? So just breaking down to a very clear three step way that people can start and they can start with any of those three is it is a good way to walk oneself back. And I find the brain fog, it's often something that people are eating and I call what you described earlier as body intelligence, which is I don't usually associate this afternoon fog and need to go to a vending machine or get my fourth cup of coffee for the day with something I've eaten. Usually I'm really tired. I didn't sleep well last night. Well, did you sleep? Because you have anxiety masking under your sleep and it's hidden by the fact that you think you can't sleep. But when we work on other things, you realize that you had severe anxiety and we didn't know it or what is it that we get to really the root of what it might be and help and help the healing.

I love that simplicity. And that's a good question for everyone to think of right now without a complete overhaul and complication around, you know, this shopping a different way, dieting a different way. What's one thing that you know that you're doing right now that could be sabotaging your mental health? And most people probably know.

Most people know. Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, I developed the SOAR method like I said saw because I realized As I went through my practice, initially when I formed my clinic was doing this work, I wanted to give people long lists. And I realized, yeah, early on that's not. You cannot overwhelm people. But breaking it down and making it simple was. Was so much easier. And I discovered through clinical practice and also through research was that most preclinic. I was doing this work, I wanted to give people long lists. And I realized, yeah, early on, that's not you cannot overwhelm people. But breaking it down and making it simple was. Was so much easier. And I discovered through clinical practice and also through research was that most people know a habit that's niggling them and bothering them either it's stopped exercising. Covid gave up people know a habit that's niggling them and bothering them, either it's stopped exercising. Covid gave up my gym membership, went back to work, and now I go to networking dinners every night and, you know, I'm not eating the right foods or whatever it might be. Or the, you know, we mentioned the.

Ice cream and cookies and all that.

Most people know, and if you help them find a solution or translate that into an action step to make it easier, then overwhelming my gym membership, went back to work and now I go to networking dinners every night and, you know, I'm not eating the right foods or whatever it might be. Or the, you know, we mentioned the ice cream and cookies and all that. Most people know. And if you help them find a solution or translate that into an action step to make it easier than overwhelming anyone with a list or rules of, you know, don't eat this. And that's where I think we, in the media, we could, we could do better.

I love that. Also. Okay, the SAW protocol, I love that you include walk. And how I'm interpreting that is you're reminding people to change their state.

Correct. So when I just walk, it's.

It's. Yeah. Because, you know, chances are you're probably not going to go through anyone with.

A list or rules of, you know, don't eat this. And that's why I think we in the media, we could, we could do better.

I love that also. Okay, the SAW protocol. I love that you include walk. And how I'm interpreting that is you're reminding people to change their state. McDonald's drive through. If you're feeling pretty good right after walking and moving your body maybe feeling a little bit more uplifted. So noticing maybe when you have a crutch for those specific foods and try walking before you make Those decisions.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's beautiful. I think of the Soul Protocol as almost a gateway to healthier living.

Yeah.

You know, we talk about gateway drugs and we say, well, people start with correct. So it's not just walk, it's. It's.

Yeah. Because, you know, chances are you're probably not going to go through this.

And then unfortunately, they get hooked on some. But it can also be a positive way in which we use that term. Right. So I find that if people pick up on either the S, either the A or the W, it's to your point, the moment they start to feel better, they're not heading towards that drive through, they're taking a walk with a friend, they taking their dog to the park, they walking to get the newspaper and coffee, whatever it might be.

Donald's drive through. If you're feeling pretty good right. After walking and moving your body, maybe feeling a little bit more uplifted.

Yes.

So noticing maybe when you have a crutch for those specific foods and try walking before you make those decisions.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's beautiful. I think of the Soul Protocol as almost stopping at the local farmer's market and buying colorful vegetables or local honey. It's just, it starts to become incorporated in your lifestyle. And that's why this is a marathon, it's not a sprint. And, you know, we, we have to have patience with ourselves and others. A gateway to healthier living.

Yeah.

You know, we talk about gateway drugs and we say, well, people start with.

A big part of your book is focusing on foods that come from nature. Talk to us about this.

And then unfortunately, they get hooked on some. But there can also be a positive way in which we use that term. Right. So I find that if people pick up on either the S, either the A or the W, it's to your point, the moment they start to feel better, they're not heading towards that drive through, they're taking a walk with a friend.

They taking the necessity of fiber and these different phytochemicals and what those do to our moods instead of just, you know, we're saying spend more time in the produce section.

That's what's, what's the breakdown. Exactly. Because I. It's so funny because, you know, we talk about colors of vegetables. Right. To convey this to people. It's the plant polyphenols, the antioxidant, anti inflammatory Conants. So take carotenoids, a dog to the park, they walking to get the newspaper and coffee, whatever it might be, which come from, say one thing is carrots lycopene, pruned tomatoes, anthocyanins from blueberries. All of these have positive effects in the gut microbiome. And by choosing, making those choices of the colors and different vegetables, you're doing two things. You or they stopping at the local farmer's market and buying colorful vegetables or local honey. It's just, it starts to become incorporated in your lifestyle and that's why this is a marathon. So you are feeding your body with these, not only the vitamins and minerals that they have, they also have fiber and they have these added sprint. And you know, we, we have to have patience with ourselves and others.

A big part of your book is focusing on foods that come from nature.

Talk to us about phytonutrients, which are helpful to your gut, helpful for your brain. They're also generally low calorie. So a lot of these colorful vegetables, whether it's cauliflower or purple broccoli or whatever it might be, they are filling you up without that much calorie. And you can use spices to make them very flavorful and delicious.

They are the necessity of fiber and these different phytochemicals and what those do to our moods, instead of just, you know, we're saying spend more time in the produce section.

That's what's, what's the breakdown exactly. Because I, it's so funny because, you.

Know, we talk about colors of vegetables.

To convey this to people. It is the, it's the plant bar. Things like, say, cauliflower have additional benefits like sulforaphane. So you, you adding all this in and the variety of those different colors is giving your gut microbiome diversity that we need to be healthy. So it's not. I like that you answered the question, because it's not just the colors. Sometimes we say that and then people are thinking like, sure, I'll eat some colors, but what does it actually mean? Polyphenols, the antioxidant, anti inflammatory components. So take carotenoids, mean to your body and your brain. Fiber is hugely important because it feeds the gut microbiome. And that's what just like we need food, they need fiber. And you can't get fiber from animal or seafood protein. You only get it from plants, beans, nuts, seeds, legumes, and whole grains. So, you know, instead of, instead of which come from, say one thing is carrots, lycopene from tomatoes, anthocyanins from blueberries. Whichever diet is telling you to exclude entire food group, just eat less of it. Eat a healthier version of it, you know, all of these have positive effects in the gut microbiome. And by choosing the. Making those choices of the colors and different vegetables, you're doing two things.

You.

If you're concerned.

In all my time doing this work, I found that more often than not.

You are feeding your body with these. Not only the vitamins and minerals that they have that also have fiber, and.

They have these added when somebody's really interested. Mona, what's the diet that I follow when we simply increase the produce to 50% of their plate?

Yes.

Often the results come. The cravings dissipate, the digestion is improved. This comes from my own healing journey, too. I think that that's why I'm so passionate about it, because I'm noticing this concept of eat the rainbow. Some people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I eat the rainbow. I get it.

They've heard it so many times. You know, it doesn't really make sense.

What does it.

What does it really mean?

You know, do you know what's happening?

Like.

Like, I think nature is just a miracle. It's designed to help us heal. I'll say it over and over again. I wish that our farmer phytonutrients, which.

Are helpful to your gut, helpful for your brain, they're also generally low calorie. So a lot of these colorful vegetables, you know, whether it's cauliflower or purple.

Broccoli, were put on a pedestal and seen as our first line of defense when it comes to health care.

It has, whatever it might be, they are filling you up without that much care. They are helping us. They're helping us be healthy by. By doing the work that they do, you know.

Yeah. And I think the fiber myth, too, for the future. There's incredible recipes, by the way, in. In both of your books that are delicious. You think that the fiber that you mentioned and the colors that you mentioned, when you look down at a beautiful plate.

Yes.

Of colorful food, and you can use spices to make them very flavorful. And del, they are.

Can you talk to us about that impact on your brain?

So, no. We eat with our eyes first. You learn that in culinary school, which is why they. They teach you how to plate food and all of that. But then, you know, the flavor has to follow. Right. So because we eat with our eyes first. And to your point about colors, I renamed colors and called my salad a kaleidoscope salad because I just want people to think about, you know, when we were children, we looked at are things like, say, cauliflower have additional benefits, like Sulforaphane. So you, you adding all this in and the variety of those different colors is giving your gut microbiome diversity that we need to be healthy. So it's not. I like that you answered the question because just all the colors you can add in. But I also wanted the recipe to be flexible. So say you open your fridge and you have red cabbage and some tomatoes and celery or whatever you might have. You can make your own salad. Doesn't have to be not just the color. Sometimes we say that and then people are thinking like, sure, I'll eat some colors, but what does it actually mean? Specific recipe, you can put it together. So I think that all of that just matters. In terms of the other thing I did with the recipes, I really leaned into spices because a pure spice is salt free, sugar free and almost calorie free. They hold any calories at all. So adding those in also has been to your body and your brain. Fiber is hugely important because it feeds the gut microbiome. And that's what benefits for your brain and for your gut makes it easier.

Can you talk about that diversity also? So I meant, I heard you say we're feeding the good bacteria in our gut microbiome, that good bacteria.

But just like we need food, they need fiber. And you can't get fiber from animal or seafood protein. You only get it from plants, beans, nuts, seeds, legumes and whole grains. So you know, instead of, instead of.

Connecting and speaking to our brain, what's the value in variety and diversity it's making.

So, you know, we now have different levels of microbiome science. I'll share through this example that we. And whichever diet is telling you to exclude entire food group, just eat less of it. Eat a healthier version of it. You know, understand that there are certain microbial groups that if there are under that they're being affected by the food we eat and they there's less of them, that we have less production of neurochemicals like gaba and that infects your level of anxiety. So we know some of the signs if you're concerned.

In all my time doing this work, I found that more often than not.

Science that is emerging through research in a similar way, if you are taking.

Care of your gut microbiome when somebody's really interested. Mona, what's the diet that I follow when we simply increase the produce to 50% of their plate?

Yes.

Often the results come the biodiversity you're.

Bringing in different colors, different textures, different microbes are coming into your body. Through those vegetables, plants, whatever it is you're eating. That's where the colors become.

Everything's dissipate. The digestion is improved. This comes from my own healing journey too. I think. I think that that's why I'm so pad important.

The diversity in your gut will help kind of the growth of different microbes. We know that there are certain species which help inflammation and there are other species that harm inflammation. You know, we know this is passionate about it.

Because I'm noticing this concept of eat the rainbow. Some people are like, oh yeah, yeah, I eat the rainbow. I get it.

They've heard it so much newer research.

Right.

But we know enough to guide us and that's where these. You know, it doesn't really make sense. What does it. What does it really mean?

You know, do you know it's happening? Like I think nature is just a miracle. It's designed to help us heal. I'll say it over and over again. I wish that our farmers general guidelines.

Around eat the colors Pay attention to diversity is all important.

If you were working with a doctor who had prescribed antidepressants to somebody, were put on a pedestal and seen as our first line of defense when it comes to health care it has or anti anxiety medication, what disclaimer would you also give with that prescription? Or maybe from your experience a client that you've. A patient that you've worked with in the past. Have you seen a big shift?

You know, a great example that I have is someone who came to me. They're helping us. They're helping us us be healthy by. By doing the work that they do. Who'd not been on medication and literally arrived on my doorstep saying please, I need. So you know.

Yeah. And I think the fiber myth too for the future. There's incredible recipes by the way in. In both of your books that are delicious.

Thank you.

You think that the so this young.

Woman identified what she wanted and was feeling very anxious and anxiety had developed over with a life event. But she didn't realize it. She just thought had a new job and she was anxious. What had happened when you traced back.

She had gotten a promotion fiber that you mentioned and the colors that you mentioned when you look down at a beautiful plate of colorful food.

And her promotion took her from being at home packing her lunch, exercising, walking her dog and her routine night. Snacks when she got in late, going to more networking dinners, consuming more alcohol and richer foods that were less.

Can you talk to us about that impact on your brain?

So no. We eat with our Eyes first. You learn that in culinary school which is why they really thrown off from her routine. So although she continued to exercise because she literally do they teach you how to plate food and all of that but then you know the flavor has to follow. Right. So because we eat with our eyes first. And to your point about colors, I renamed colors and call yoga in her room or get on the treadmill. When she got to a hotel, her weight wasn't impacted, but she. Her body had developed some level of inflammation. She appeared extremely anxious. But with my salad kaleidoscope salad because I just want people to think about, you know, when we were children we looked at. When she heard my. My sort of theory around what I thought happened. She was open to either starting really starting on a plan that adapted her nutrition in a lighter scope. Just all the colors you can add in. But I also wanted the recipe to be flexible. So say you open your fridge and you. And through nutrition we were able to over time give her enough tips for her red cabbage and some tomatoes and celery. Whatever you might have, you can make your own salad. Doesn't have to be a change in lifestyle that she could manage and eat more whole foods and step back from some of those habits that are developed in other scenarios. People come to me on medication and be a specific recipe. You can put it together. So I think that all of that just matters and either no longer need to increase the medication by using nutrition, lifestyle and also factoring in metabolism. In terms of the other thing I did with the recipes, I really leaned into something spices because the pure spice is salt free, sugar free and almost calorie free if they hold any calories at all.

Right.

So adding those in also has some. Or over time I'll work with their doctor prescriber to come off the medication. But it's a very careful. It's a very careful thing. And it has to be done with both physicians knowing both prescribers and the patient being, you know or the client being on board with doing that. But some people want to. They want to see what life would be like not being on that SSI or the medication. Because we benefits for your brain and for your gut makes it easier.

Can you talk about that diversity also? So I meant I heard you say we're feeding the good bacteria in our gut microbiome. That good bacteria is connecting and speaking to our brain. What's the value in variety and diversity it's making?

No. That the medications don't help everyone. And that's why we need more Solutions.

I love that you share that story. Thank you. Because I think a lot of people, when we go, you know, out of fear, sadness or intimidation to our doctors and it often comes with a prescription that does make us feel better. I think that any prescription that's ever written should also come with some sort of a holistic plan.

I completely agree.

Because there's dependency that also happens.

So, you know, we now have different levels of microbiome science. I'll share through this example that we understand that there are certain microbial groups that if there are under and to.

Your point of increasing dosages also. I don't think that a lot of practitioners are talking about that dependency.

That's that they're being affected by the food we eat and they. There's less of them. That we have less production.

That's building up over time.

That's building up and sort of tolerance we develop to medications. And someone comes in after six months and that dose of Prozac is not working. Yeah. And they now are still. Were they actually of neurochemicals like Gaba? And that infects your level of anxiety. So we know some of this improved in their depression. Some of it we can tell through the rating scales, but not all of it. We know that the studies of antidepressants unfortunately are just not targeting enough of the symptoms. And the same medications are used for anxiety instead is emerging through research in a similar way. If you are taking care of your gut microbiome, we have a similar problem there. So I feel like what we're speaking the same language. Because what I feel that my clinical work has done is filled out that gap of this is what the research shows. These are elements that we can take from the mind. Biodiversity. You're bringing in different colors, different textures, different microbes are coming into your body through those vegetables, plants, whatever it is you're eating. That's where the colors become important. The diversity in your gut will help at the Mediterranean diet, all of these diets, and tailor it to what you eat in your life. So whatever it is, we can tailor that and make it work in an inclusive way that you feel comfortable culturally adding in spices you like, foods you're used to eating as well. I think that is so important as part of a holistic plan because you cannot hand someone a prescription. Kind of the growth of different microbes. We know that there are certain species which help inflammation and there are other species that harm inflammation. You know, we know this is. And have them leave and then have them come in the next month. And check the weight because it doesn't mean anything. Yeah in that newer research.

Right.

But we know enough to guide us and that's where the in that con it really doesn't you just checking something off to complete your medical record to be honest. General guidelines around eat the colors pay attention to diversity is all important and you know I think that as doctors are so pressured to see people in such a short time and they don't study nutrition so what can we do to enhance that lifestyle plan along with what they eat so that they gain less weight on this medication?

If you were working with a doctor who had prescribed antidepressants to somebody or.

Don'T develop the metabolic side effects of different medications.

Dr. Uma, this is why you were so special. Like you tell these stories in your book and you have such a scientific background and you're able to merge that with this bio individuality that no one is really talking about. If every person or anti anxiety medication, what disclaimer would you also give with that prescription? Or maybe from your experience a client that you've a patient that you've worked with in the past, have you seen a big shift?

You know a great example that I have is someone who came to me.

And was looked at, you know, in their unique way with their own unique genetics and the season of life that they were going through and their expectation or like your patient who was going through a season of so many different changes that she didn't even notice the you know how derailed she was. Right.

That's right.

There's so many factors to consider. So find your care team and if that seems out of reach, just keep asking questions to people in your life who care about you. And then I know who'd not been.

On medication and literally arrived on my doorstep saying please, I need Zoloft. So this young woman identified what she wanted and was feeling very anxious with.

The right decision, the right book, the right practitioner, the right podcast, the right doctor is going to and anxiety had.

Developed over with a life event but she didn't realize it. She just thought had a new job and she was anxious. What had happened when you traced back she had gotten a promotion.

Show up, read and choir a little bit more. It's so important in part of your protocol. You're welcome. You talk about bioactive herbs which I love. Herbs are a big part of Ayurveda. We call it nature's pharmacy. It's also what your food mixtures is based on. So what do you mean by bioactive herbs?

So you Know, we tend to think of spices and herbs, but specifically herbs as just a flavoring for our food. And her promotion took her from being at home, packing her lunch, exercising, walking her dog. They either garnish or, you know, whether it's Thanksgiving or another holiday, what are we going to flavor our herbs, flavor our dishes, and which herbs are we going to use? But the bioactives are actually the nutrients or micronutrients that to are going and her routine. Contained in them that help our brain, help our body, help our gut. So something. Snacks when she got in late, going to more networking dinners, consuming more alcohol and richer foods that were less health. There's some. There's an antioxidant called luteolin, and it's found to actually help people with different symptoms, including brain fog or fogginess. And it can be found in Pascal time and certain herbs that if they continue to add to their diet over time and just include in their food, could beneficially could benefit them in some way. Really thrown off from her routine. So although she continued to exercise because she would literally do yoga in her room or get on the treadmill when she got to a hotel, her weight wasn't impacted over time. So every. I think if we started to think of like. Like you said, but she. Her body had developed some level of inflammation. She appeared extremely anxious. But when she heard my. My sort of theory around what I thought happened, she was open to either the foods, including the herbs, as really the pharmacy in our kitchen that we're just using to heal our bodies, I think would be so much better off. And our food is more flavorful and it and can still be healthy.

You know, does it make a difference if they're fresh herbs or dried herbs?

You know, the. For me, I think when you have access to fresh herbs, those are beautiful. Or maybe you live near farmers market or can grow your own starting really starting on a plan that adapted her nutrition in this. And you just use less. You use more fresh herbs and less dried of the dried version of it, because the dried version is usually more concentrated. Not everyone can. Can do that. And I find that with certain spices actually prefer like. And through nutrition, we were able to over time give her enough tips for her change in lifestyle that she could manage and eat more whole foods and step back from some of those habits that are developed in other scenarios. People come to me on medication and be turmeric. I can get the root. But I will tell you that on a white kitchen surface, it's gonna ruin it. So as much as I love turmeric. I will buy a really good brand of the powder and work with it that way simply for that lifestyle choice that I cannot be figuring out how to. To not damage my condors all the time. Yeah, but it's always a trick. When I can, I will either no longer need to increase the medication by using nutrition and lifestyle and also factoring in metabolism, or over time, I'll work with their doctor prescriber to come off the medication. But it's very careful. It's a very careful thing. And it has to be done with both physicians knowing we'll use it as well. But I think that those. I almost want people to think about everything, both prescribers and the patient being, you know, or the client being on board with doing that. But some people want things that they put on their plate as helping their health or not helping their health. And that very clear distinction can help that choice.

Absolutely. What you're eating is either serving your health or not serving your health. That's a good reframe. You also, I love that you put berberine into one of those bioactives. And I'm going to tie that in just because I know about it. And the connection to blood sugar regulation. Can you talk to us about that? And you know, why people need to, despite what they're up to, they want.

To see what life would be like not being on that SSI or the.

Medication because we're hearing the concept of, you know, blood sugar regulation on their mood and what it could be doing with that.

We know that the medications don't help everyone and that's why we need more solutions.

I love that you share that story. Thank you. So I think a lot of people, when we go, you know, out of fear, sadness or intimidation to our doctors, and it often comes with a prescription that does make us feel better. I think that any prescription that's ever written, even realizing it.

So berberine is something that has come forward and has been around actually for a while, but it's come forward in different contexts. And I think it's really helpful to some of my patients because they use it as either pill or supplement or drop. But I'm not against supplements. I feel like they form, they fill in some nutritional gaps that we have because especially in the US we're not perfect eaters and could also come with.

Some sort of a holistic plan.

I completely agree.

Because there's dependency that also happens.

They have found it to be helpful in terms of someone who struggles a.

Lot with gut and to your point of increasing dosages. Also, I don't think that a lot of practitioners are talking about that dependency.

That's issues and bloating and finds that when that happens, she has cravings. But when she started taking suburban drops that she found and you know, made.

Sure that's building up over time, that's.

Building up and sort of tolerance. We developed medications and someone comes in after six months and that dose of Prozac is not working.

Yeah.

And they now are still. Were they? Actually it was a kind of a clean supplement that using that helped stabilize those cravings over time. And by stabilizing her cravings, even though she was generally eating healthy foods, she needed to cut back on fruit. Because. Because for her it was driving certain symptoms that she had. And so that food were bad in her condition, she just needed to eat less fruit. And some improved in their depression. Some of it we can tell through the rating scales, but not all of it. We know that the certain food.

Yeah.

So bourbon was helpful for her. And I think it's antidepressants, unfortunately, and just not targeting enough of the symptoms. And the same medications are used for anxiety. We have a similar problem there. So I feel like we're speaking the same language. Because what I feel that my clinical work has done is filled out that gap of this is what's definitely a solution for some people. I just feel that it's related to what your needs are and speaking to your doctor about what that is that can balance for you.

I love it. I couldn't agree more. You also mentioned the anti anxiety shopping trip. Yes.

The research shows, you know, this is. These are elements that we can take from the mind diet, the Mediterranean diet, all of these diets, and tailor it to what you eat in your life. So whatever it is, we can tailor that and make it work in an inclusive way that you feel comfortable culturally adding in spices you like, foods you used to eating as well. I think that is so important as part of a holistic plan because you cannot hand someone a prescription and have them leave and then have them come in the next month and check their weight. Because it doesn't mean anything.

Yeah.

In that, you know, in that con, it really doesn't. You're just checking something off to complete your medical record, to be honest. And you know, I think that as doctors are so pressured to see people in such a short time. So first and foremost, when you go at a venue, I basically set up a list of foods that are ideal to help anxiety. And there's a list in the Book with the mnemonic calming as well. That can be your checklist of what other things you should go toward. So the anti anxiety shopping list is to pick foods that really can be used in the recipes in the book to help not only heal your gut, but calm your mind over time. It's also related to protocol. You can try and you can, you know, if it feels overwhelmed, just start with one week at a time, even just one day at a time. Or start with swapping one thing. But the anti anxiety shopping list, I always say to people, one rule number one, drink a glass of water before you go to the supermarket because you know, there's the thirst and hunger signals overlap and sometimes the craving you feel for the bag of candy or whatever it might be, it could be just.

Be that you're thirsty.

Yeah. So it's hard for that you're going to reach for that food.

Yeah. And then the idea is to get used to those types of foods and start to include them on your diet so that if you have that cupcake at the birthday party, you know that you have healthy food in the fridge at home for dinner or for breakfast the next morning and you, you can balance it off instead of that. And they don't study nutrition. So what can we do to enhance that lifestyle plan along with what they eat so that they gain less weight on this medication or don't develop the metabolic side effects of different medications?

Dr. Uma, this is why you were so special. Like you tell these stories in your book and you have such a scientific background and you're that feeling we tend.

To get and not be able to get over.

Absolutely. All right, so for listeners who are wanting, let's say, what are your five favorite foods for calming ourselves?

So I, I break down the mnemonic into comms. There's a longer one as well. And the C is for citrus fruit because of the vitamin C. Also for things that women love. Dark chocolate, extra dark, natural.

Be able to merge that with this bio individuality that no one is really talking about. If every person was looked at, you know, in their unique way, with their own unique genetics and the season of life that they were going through and their expectation, or like your patient who was going through a season of so many different changes that you didn't even.

Notice chocolate and things like choline, which can be found in legumes or eggs. The A is for ashwagandha, which, which is in mood food mixes. It's also for antioxidants because all those colors we spoke about what we're trying to do is increase your anti inflammatory.

The you know how derailed she was, right?

That's right.

There's so many factors to consider. So find your care team and antioxidant.

Properties to help your gut and your mind. The L is for liquids. We spoke about water. Water when you dehydrate you can be winexious with tea, healing teas, calming teas. Really helpful to sip on during the day. M is for magnesium and more omegas. Now you can get your omegas from salmon, you can get them from different seafood, from mackerel, from herring, there's that smash mnemonic anchovies. But you can also and if that.

Seems out of reach, just keep asking questions to people in your life who care about you and then I know the right, the right decision, the right book, the right practitioner, the right podcast, the right doctor is going to show up, read and choir a little bit more. It's so important in part of your protocol, you're welcome.

You talk, get them from chia seeds and hemp seeds. Magnesium. A lot of Macons may not have magnesium.

Enough about bioactive herbs, which I love. Herbs are a big part of Ayurveda. We call it nature's pharmacy in their diet.

So I'd like them to try to get more through food. And the S is for spices and herbs. So start there. Those are sort of broad categories but things that you pick anything on that list and start to build on that, maybe you add more legumes to your diet. Maybe you don't eat enough eggs and that can bring you some choline. Maybe, you know, you want to add in more hydration because a lot of people don't just don't drink enough water.

Absolutely.

And so it simple, simple habits like that can help.

I think I know the answer to the next question for listeners who, you know, maybe they're stuck in this survival mode or maybe they felt anxious for far too long. And it's also what your food M extras is based on. So what do you mean by bioactive herbs?

So you know, we, we tend to think of spices and herbs, but specifically herbs is just a flavoring for our food. They either garnish or, you know, whether it's Thanksgiving or another holiday, what are we going to flavor our herbs, flavor.

Our dishes and which herbs are we going to use?

But the bioactives are actually the nutrients and micronutrients that are.

They're seeking this calm that you speak so beautifully about. Is there a place, you know, we're looking at this analogy of the calm foods. I love herbal teas you lot mentioned.