How to Balance Ancient Wisdom and Medicine for Real Results

At the end of the day, if you can't go from inspiration and motivation all the way through implementation to habit, to passion, it's not going to stick. And this is why most doctors don't even bother saying, oh, you should try lifestyle intervention for your high blood pressure. They go straight to a prescription because they've seen so many people be told, yes, you should try these things. But then nothing really changes, and it's because they're not resourced to. To make those changes. You need that community. You need someone to be helping you actually do that. Otherwise, you would have done it before you went into the doctor.

Welcome to Rooted in Wellness. Mike Stone. I'm so happy we could finally get this in the books to get this done. I've been looking forward to it for some time now.

Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited as well. It's going to be a good conversation.

Yeah. So to start off, you know, this podcast is all about ancient wisdom in our modern world, and I really want to help my listeners get more rooted, whether it's in the feeling of themselves or their health or their innocence of being to heal. So I'd love to start off by asking you, what are a few things? Three things that help you feel rooted in your health and your happiness.

I love that. So three things that make me feel rooted in my health. So meditation and breath work, I would count as one thing because I typically don't do both in the same day, but I find that they both serve the same purpose for me. So really kind of ground or root me in the. In the present moment. Reduce stress, enhance clarity. So these are. These are really, you know, practices that I feel like connect me to my own inner wisdom and are pretty essential for me. Meaningful relationships would be another one. So really connecting deeply with. With family, with friends, also with folks that I take care of in my medical practice. And really just seeing people and being seen, I think is. Is a critical part of, of what roots me and is woefully missing from so many of our interactions today. And then I need a third one.

I know you have many, I think.

I think, yeah, I mean, I, I could keep, but it's hard to pick. I think. I think I'd go with. With putting the right foods in my body, I think, in terms of, like, really rooting me, you know, I am acutely attuned to how I feel when I'm not eating things that serve me versus how I feel when I am. So I think nutrition, meditation, and breath work connections.

Yeah. I'm going to hover on the relationship. So meaningful relationship, just for a second, because I feel like in this world of digital everything, we might feel like we're connecting to people so often even larger groups of people. But it's not until we have an experience where we're back, kind of like, you know, whether it's in circle or away in community with people, that we feel how giving it is, how much it nurtures us. And when we feel really nurtured and like our cup is full again, we make better decisions for ourselves anyways. Right. I love that you brought that up. It's so important.

Yeah. And just to get a little meta on it. I mean, I think this is why podcasts are popular. It's a chance to, to even, you know, when it's a single host, it's a chance to connect with the host in a form. And when it's a conversation, it's a chance to come into community and be a part of that conversation, even if the part you're being is listening, which is just as valuable, if not like a lot more valuable than speaking. So I think we are, I think we're starved for that meaningful interaction and meaningful connection.

Yeah. And to that point, so on the flip side, I don't know if you notice also the people that you're working with, people have these habits that they might not even notice are uprooting them. So they become part of this checklist that they check off every day. So for some people, breath, work and meditation. A lot of my clients will drop into meditation. All right, check done without actually dropping into the practice. So they don't recognize that these could be things that are uprooting them from how they really want to feel. So could you shed more light? Are there things or practices in your life or things that you notice with your clients? Practices that are uprooting them?

Um, yeah, I'm going to, I'm, I'll, I'll speak to ones for me. Um, because I, I, I think it's for everyone who, who knows me and works with me. It's, you know, I am, we're all on, on our own journeys and paths. And I'm very cognizant of not wanting to seem like I've got it all figured out. So I'll focus on things that uproot me because there's, there are plenty. And for me, I think, you know, number one would be like, over committing and multitasking.

Yeah.

So when I get pulled into, oh, I can handle this at the same time that I'm doing this, like no, I can't actually like all of us can. I know this really well from my background in emergency medicine. You know, we can rapidly task switch but we can't multitask. So you know, rapid task switching just makes you not pay really deep attention to the thing that you're working on or the multiple things. So I think multitasking and over committing, I'd put in the same category of just making me feel scattered and disconnected when I've got too much going on and there's a vulnerability and a humility in that of like I have too much going on. Right. And just being able to admit that and say I need to back off. So that's, that's one thing. We chatted a little bit about this before the official record button got hit. But disconnecting from nature, you know, if I find myself not like feet on the ground, at least in, around trees at the very least and then like really off in the woods. Last month I was in Ecuador for 10 days and was climbing and you know, like that, that's the ideal, but it also doesn't really fit into, you know, being a good, you know, husband and father and working and being connected to, you know, talk to people I take care of. So I can't be in Ecuador all the time. But at least just being in the woods is a great first step. And when I find myself, you know, let's say traveling for work or you know, visiting family who are in New York City, I feel that uprooted feeling creep in almost immediately. If I'm sort of concrete jungle kind of, kind of environment and then yeah, poor sleep and, and, or over reliance on caffeine to compensate for poor sleep, I think that is like the, the single most uprooting lifestyle factor for me is the day I have after a night of non restful sleep is I, I'm, I'm all over the place. I'm, I'm like a Tasmanian devil. And it's not a, it's not a good, it's not good to be around, it's not good to be me those days. So I, I really focus pretty hard on, on minimizing the times that that happens. But again with the lens of, you know, I'm also just, you know, a human being living this human existence. Like sometimes I travel and do time zone changes and sometimes, you know, a kid gets sick and you're up because somebody has a fever and you know, you can'. But to the extent that you can try and plan. I really do prioritize getting, getting a good night's sleep.

So good. And I think that these are so good. Especially I love learning about your story and your journey from traditional western medicine into more of an integrative practice. So can you share a little bit with our audience, like what triggered you or inspired you to this change and you've had your own healing journey. Also, can you share a little bit more about what inspired you to take control over your health? Because I know for me when I look at my pre health and wellness, my over scheduling, my over caffeinating and the things that I would commit to while being over caffeinated, there's no reward on the other end. Right. Like it's all this like self inflicted abuse that I had to like, oh, I don't have to do that anymore. I'd love to hear more about your story.

Yeah, well, you know, in the spirit of ancient wisdom traditions, you know, you wake up to the, what your current reality is. Right. And until you do, it's, you're completely blind to it. Right. I mean it's, it just seems like the way things are and have to be. So yeah, quickly. I was trained as a, you know, traditional allopathic medical doctor, went to med school, you know, was, went to residency training in emergency medicine. I was attracted to emergency medicine because of the, the ability to, to really make a big difference in somebody's worst day. I think that at the end of the day that that's what really drew me there. And you know, if I'd known what I know now, I don't have no regrets about doing emergency medicine for 20 years. But if I'd known what I know now about its effects on my own health, I'm not sure I would have been quite as eager. So, you know, lots of sleep depri, Lots of circadian rhythm disruption, lots of stress. And you know, I was in my 40s and you know, overweight and not sleeping well and very stressed. I was very focused on, you know, sort of academic achievement and professional achievement and you know, I was still present with my family and like I wasn't, you know, just completely off the rails, but I was pretty disconnected and, and I had a moment where I, and it wasn't like one of those, it's not a great story. Like I can't just say, oh, I was climbing the stairs and I got short of breath or you know, like this one second where it happened, but just in, in a sort of spontaneous, spontaneous moment. I was like, yeah, I don't want to really live like this anymore. And I started working on my own health, which included doing nothing I'd learned in medical school. I mean, it was all, you know, nutrition, sleep, stress, resiliency, spiritual explor, physical activity. You know, it was that sort of stuff. And as I got deeper along that journey, it became harder and harder for me to. I mean, frankly, it became really hard to be an ER doctor because I had a hard time not feeling deep empathy. And it's a really challenging place to work when you feel deep empathy for everybody who's in the emergency department. So that was one side, and on the other side, I would. I just felt like I wasn't contributing. Like it could have been anyone else else doing the role I was doing. Like, I didn't feel like I was bringing my own real talents to it. I felt like I was doing a. I'm, you know, here I am. Like, I. Oh, don't remember. I'm. I'm humble. I was a great ER doctor. Like, that's just a fact. I was a terrific ER doctor. I was kind to people. I was good at what I did. And I felt like I probably meaningfully impacted 5% of the patients that I saw in the emergency department.

Transient, right? You see people for such a brief period of time, you're not contributing to, like, their. Their connection to the healing afterwards. You're saving their lives in many cases, I'm sure.

Well, yeah, and in the. In the 5% of times where somebody really needs their life saved in that visit, in those minutes, seconds, you know, half an hour that they're in the emergency department and critically ill, it's incredibly rewarding. And 95% of the time, IT folks are in the emergency department because they're having an acute exacerbation of a chronic condition that isn't being managed proactively. And you can help to fix that exacerbation, but you're not doing anything about the root cause. You don't have the resources to help so many other people who are there for, you know, exacerbations of substance use disorder or exacerbations of psychiatric illness or homelessness. All, all roads lead to the emergency department, and you're just not resourced to be able to really get to the root of what's going on. You don't have the staff, the time. There's 30 people in the waiting room. It's just, you know, I don't. I'm sure anybody listening who's been to a United States emergency department has their own bad Experience to share. And I wanted, I want to say I don't know a single ER provider or doctor for that matter, who went into medicine who doesn't genuinely want to help people when they go into medicine. And the system is just built in a way where it's really challenging and in the error, all the flaws are on display. It's just, it's, it's, it's challenge.

You are also. I just, I have a friend who is an ER doctor and I, knowing him, you are built differently. Like to be able to function at that capacity. You talked about circadian rhythm, the hours that you must have put in training your body to just be, in most cases just so reactionary. Like this concept of the things that you'd mentioned, like your relationships and grounding and meditation and stuff like that. You were living on the opposite, opposite spectrum. I can just imagine your nervous system must have just adapted to functioning at that speed and wanting to give more also. So what was that intensity like on your body?

Yeah, I mean, it's funny that you say it adapted. I think you convince yourself that it's adapted right. When you're on the other side of it, you realize exactly how maladaptive it's been.

Right.

And it's not to say that I think you one couldn't work that career or lifestyle and have a balance. I think, I think it's possible it didn't happen for me. I didn't have that balance when I was doing it. I think I was very over, you know, under regulated, dysregulated and, and super, you know, hyper sympathetic, just, just sort of like in full sympathetic overdrive. And, and it's. Yeah, it was not a, it was not a healthy way to be for me. So as I, as I kind of, you know, went through my own health journey and really addressed a lot of the, the issues that I was having and then started to really get this different perspective on the emergency department and, and what I was doing there. It just was the next logical step to, to pivot into something that felt more aligned and, and really resonated more with what I wanted to do and the impact I wanted to have.

So I'm curious then, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced when you stepped away from a conventional practice? I can imagine that prior to, you know, you're in school and taught these modalities of having to work a certain way under specific protocols and what was policy. I can imagine also the things that you had to do as a part of your profession. What were the biggest challenging challenges, when you pulled away from that.

Oh man, do you have like.

I know, should we do a whole episode on this and like the western medical system And I had to readapt.

Yeah, I mean I, maybe I'd break them down into, into sort of business, medicine and like personal and in, in no particular order, I'd say from a business standpoint, I didn't know the first thing about running my own business in my own practice. I'd never, I mean I, like many ER docs, I had a lot of varied interests and you know, certainly on the ADHD spectrum somewhere and you know, had been involved in, you know, a medical, a med tech start a couple of medtech startups, an educational company. Like I. Some exposure to the corporate world outside of, of just being an ER doc, but in terms of being a small business owner and like starting my own practice and all the logistics that go into that, that was all brand new and that was, that was challenge. The medicine side was really fascinating. I actually don't see that as a challenge, but it was a ton of work. So for me it really, I think that fundamentally what it meant was unlearning the sort of reactive, algorithmic, one size fits all approach of Western medicine and learning what it means to create a supportive plan for health for an individual and personalize it and make it really about them and really tailored to them and not have a sort of right out of the box solution for people. So that was, you know, I did a lot of, I did a lot of learning for the first like three, four years of really learning about genetics, learning about epigenetics, learning about best practices for health, learning about techniques that we never learned about in medical school and things like nutrition, learning like a lot about nutrition, which we didn't learn in medical school, shockingly, learning about sleep, learning about cognitive health. So, you know, there was a lot of learning. But I am a total nerd and a lifelong learner. So for me that was actually like, I didn't see it as a challenge. It was really exciting. I kind of felt like I was, I remember telling my wife at one point, like, I feel like I'm like back in medical school, except it's like a way cooler medical school. It's all self directed and I'm not, I don't have to like take a test. I can just learn for the sake of learning. And then.

Personally, I can imagine it reignited this passion for you to finally be able to help people.

Yeah, personally, again, I, you know, it's funny I thought of the, in answering it, I was thinking about sort of the, the big transitions that happened. It was not a challenge. It was more like this, you know, infinite possibility of what does it mean to go to every one of my kids sporting events and what does it mean to have dinner with the family and not have to go put on scrubs and go to the hospital? And what does it mean to work from home and have boundaries where I work, when I'm working, but I also have flexibility to connect with my wife. And I mean, two hours ago we went on a three mile walk with the dog in the middle of the day. Right. Just like to be able to do, to find that balance and you know, again circling back, like to really connect deeply with the people who I'm closest to. Like it's such a privilege to do that in a way where I can do it from home. So that was a. And just to sleep every night around the same time is so liberating that, you know, I haven't worked in the emergency department in, you know, over three years and it still feels almost like a treat every time I get to, you know, get ready for bed.

Yeah, I believe that. Look, we're laughing about this. I'm Indian. I've got a lot of doctors in my family now in this profession. I'm working alongside so many of my friends like you, who are trained in this medical profession with the intention to help and serve and heal and then only to land in these appointments that are 5, 10, 15 minutes long for you. Being in an ER where you're, you know, living this reactionary state, me having gone through the medical system and being sick, the symptomatic treatment that I had to go through without uncovering like why I was actually suffering. I'm still amazed. Like so many other things in this world, why isn't this front page news? Like, we need doctors hard stop. We will forever need emergency care doctors hard stop. And yet we recognize these issues of a broken system. Doctors who are now choosing to find another way because they're not being of service as was their intention. Have you. I can imagine there's been people in your life or, you know, colleagues of yours from the past who are now kind of veering towards your side also. Like, what is your reflection now looking back at that season of your life?

Yeah, I mean, it's. The system's broken, I think predominantly because the incentives are malaligned. And I, you know, gastroenterology, I'll just pick a specialty. A gastroenterologist really doesn't make a living by sitting and spending an hour deeply connecting with someone about their nutrition and their health. They make a living by doing an endoscopy and a colonoscopy. And until outcomes are the predominant motivator for incentives and healthy living is the predominant motivator, it's always going to be that way. It's a sick care system, which is why emergency medicine is absolutely fantastic. If I were to get hit by a bus, like, I don't want to see a functional or integrative or holistic practitioner. If I just had my thigh bone broken in half, right. If my femur is fractured, I want to go and see an ER doc and an orthopedist and get a nail in my femur and be in rehab and be getting physical therapy and back on my feet, right? It's great for acute sick care. It's great for a heart attack. If you're having a heart attack. It is not great for having a healthy body composition and managing your long term cognitive health risk and making sure metabolically you're healthy and that you're connected with mind, body and spirit. And like, it doesn't do any of those things because, because it's not incent, the system isn't incentivized to do that. So, yes, I see a lot of disenfranchised and burnt out and, you know, morally wounded physicians and healthcare providers and patients in the system. And you know, I think it, in a sense, it is front, front page news. I mean, this is why there's so much skepticism about, you know, medical society recommendations. And you know, we're not going to go down a, a rabbit hole of, you know, vaccine denial and, you know, unpasteurized milk and like raw milk. I mean, there's, there's all sorts of different opinions that are being floated around because there's a lot of distrust. And I think it's really hard for someone without the, the training and education and wherewithal to really know what's right for them to navigate that system. So I think we know there are problems. I think just there isn't a great society wide, national, let's say solution.

Yeah, not yet. Especially because we're at a point where we can go. So many people can just go online and they'll find conflicting data at this point. Right. Based on who is controlling the study in the end. And there's just like, I think people are waking up to this concept of the fact, like, okay, you know, the system is broken. The numbers are obviously proving that despite having all this education and awareness, the rise of disease and chronic disease is like this new epidemic. What would you say are the biggest health issues that we're facing today?

I think insulin resistance and obesity are probably the, the biggest. Now granted, you know, the leading cause of death in the US and worldwide is, is coronary artery disease. And the second leading cause of death, which is about to overtake the first, is cancer. So I say, you know, you say what are the biggest issues? And I give you two things that aren't on the list of the two biggest things that lead to morbidity and mortality, or at least mortality for morbidity. You know, really like impacting the quality of your life. I think obesity and diabetes are, are really high up there and diabetes just sort of the end stage of insulin resistance. And you know, if you look at how quickly things are escalating in our society, you know, I just saw the other day something like 40% of 18 to 44 year olds have insulin resistance. We know that numbers for obesity and overweight Americans once you, you know, even in childhood, but certainly at the adult level, like more than half of Americans like these are. And, and it's a complex topic because it's chat, you know, you want to talk to people about their health and you don't want people to feel stigmatized. And you certainly, you know, you know, as the father of two teenagers, you know, you know, disordered eating is something to be really, really aware of and, and, and conscious of. And at the same time, our food, our sedentary lifestyle, our disconnection from each other, our disconnection from nature, our prior, you know, our over caffeinated, you know, environmentally toxic society is having its impact on our health. And I think those are two ways where we're really seeing it quite dramatically.

Yeah, I love that you brought that up because those are also precursors for the causes of disease. Right. Like insulin resistance now we know leads to so many other chronic conditions. And can you maybe dive in a little bit? I want to nail this in as much as possible with practitioners like yourself, because when I say insulin resistance to a lot of my clients, they still think it looks a certain way. Like they think it looks like the, the kid who's obese on the playground or you know, the person who is overweight and doesn't work out and eats processed food all day. When that is not the case, we're seeing insulin resistance in people who look healthy on the outside.

Yeah. And much like, you know, cardiovascular disease can affect people who look really Healthy on the outside. You know, many of us, myself included, know people who are, you know, avid runners who had heart attacks or even worse from coronary artery disease. I mean, insulin resistance is a complex topic. I think the, what I, the way I like to speak about it with folks I work with is, is, you know, hyperinsulinemia or just elevated insulin. That when your insulin levels are high and your, your body is working to lower your blood glucose and it's working overtime to do that, you're going to end up with not only a higher risk of obesity and being overweight, but a higher risk of cognitive decline, a higher risk of inflammation. You know, it's got multiple downstream effects on our health. So, you know, there's plenty of tools we have to look at this from, you know, fasted blood work in the morning to a continuous glucose monitor to look at the trends and what's actually happening with your sugar over the course of the day, your blood sugar. But you do not need to be a sort of archetype of type 2 diabetes to be insulin resistant. And there are plenty of folks who have insulin resistance who look very healthy on the outside.

And can I ask too, as a doctor and as a father, how do you guide your kids into making better choices? Living in the world that we live in, where processed food is really normalized and a lot of these really high insulin spiking foods are my sons. There's a boba craze that's happening now amongst him, which is basically just sugar balls and sugar water.

Yeah, the boba craze is real and we've definitely had it. Um, I think it's still alive and well in our area too. Um, yeah, I mean, as a, as a, as a father slash doctor, there's a couple of things that I do, and I'll say that, and I'll, I'll tell you what they are, but I'll say that what's far more important than what I tell my kids about nutrition and exercise and that kind of stuff is what I do. They look at what I do, and I think that kids do this across the board is they see what their parents do and that's what really sticks. You know, my, I don't think I ever told my older son to work out and he started lifting weights when he was about 15 because he saw me in the garage lifting weights. Right. So at the end of the day, I think they just model what you're doing in terms, you know, at the same time, I recall many times being the grocery store and Being asked, hey, can we, can we buy this? And I, we got to the point where the kids just started laughing and they would hold it up and say, is this poison? Because they would hold it up and I would say, no, we can't get that it's poison. And so, so that's an ongoing joke in my family of oh, is this poison? So limiting the, the ultra processed food for sure. And at the same time, you know, it's summertime and we want to go out and get ice cream after dinner and we're out as a family. That is a really fun and fantastic activity and we will definitely go and do that. And it's not about living this perfect manicured. Every moment of the day has to be focused on your health. It's about making your, your habits and your daily practice really healthy. And then you can, you know, intentionally go and have something really as a treat as a family. And that's great. Great. The. And then the other thing which may not be obviously directly connected, but for me it is, is they're not on social media. And I recognize that, you know, having a 14 and a 17 year old and not having Snapchat or Instagram or TikTok can be somewhat limiting potentially for their, you know, social acceptance, although it doesn't seem to be for either of them. And I just think, I can't imagine a world where they would look back and say, wow, I wish, I really wish my parents let me have Instagram when I was 14. So I think from my perspective, just getting that, keeping them a little bit disconnected from that digital substitute for real connection is another part of where I focus.

Because it's not only what they're watching, it's the marketing that goes up and what they're being sold while they're on social media on top of the societal pressures that I remember so clearly as a kid, which are now exacerbated on how you should look, how you should dress, what's perfect health. Right. It's just, it's wild. And then with the filters too. And is there resistance from your kids?

No, it's interesting. The. Well and, and I'll say like one again in, in the spir. Humility like both of my. My kids are boys. And the impact of Instagram and social media does seem to be evidence wise, does seem to be more disproportionately affecting young women. So I. Is it. And I think that from friends and this is just personal experience, not speaking as a doctor, just as a dad, from friends who have girls, my Kids age, the pressures to be on social media and to be engaged there and the possibility for ostracism, and that seems much higher, at least in, in our, in our circles. All that said, my older one definitely pushed back and was disappointed that he wasn't allowed to be on Snapchat and social media. Snapchat and Instagram were the big ones when, when he first wanted to get on. And now at 17, he's like, yeah, I have no interest in being on either of those. My 14 year old I think would still, you know, probably do a backflip, a standing backflip. If I told him he could have Instagram today, but. But not going to happen.

Good to hear. So between that and the education, the imprinting that you're doing was the biggest thing with my parents. They had no idea that by modeling good behavior around food. My mom had severe rheumatoid arthritis, so she would try every Eastern modal between the Chinese herbs and the different foods. And she finally came across a book from Dr. Andrew Weil. And the foundation in her home was like, food is medicine. Since I was a little kid. Now as a 13, 14, 15 year old, I was like, man, this sucks. But now, as you know, obviously with my profession and with my kids, I see the value on just leading by example. They might not follow you now, but they will certainly remember that in the future. So that's a really great tip, going back to Western medicine, because I really want to hear, you know, it's such a big deal for you to have left that world and started down this new path. We could have gone deeper. The third leading cause of death, if I'm not mistaken, is prescription drugs, whether they're used incorrectly or, you know, misdiagnosed or because of overdoses. But what are some other pitfalls that you can really looking back, is happening within Western medicine?

Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately it works. Western medicine is outstanding for acute conditions, like we chatted about, and I think it often falls short in addressing chronic disease management, chronic disease prevention, mental health and overall wellness. And you know, this, there's probably, there's a myriad of reasons, and I'm not a public health expert, but I would say, you know, day one of medical school, you're taught about statistics. It's not the first time you've been taught about statistics. You'd had it in undergrad and you have it again and then you have it again later and you're taught about not applying population statistics to individuals. And then day two, you just start applying population statistics to individuals because it's what people do. And I think idea that the same treatment strategy should be applied to two different individuals with the same, the same condition is, is really a fundamental flaw in, in Western medicine, I think.

Amen. Yeah.

You know, we, that that is a cornerstone of where I think my evolution of my practice has moved is there, there's no algorithms, there's no flowcharts, there's no if A, then B, it's really get to know an individual, get to know what's important to them, get to know their, their environment, their community, their food, their sleep, their everything. And then you can work to try and improve their health and help them, you know, really narrow in on what true health looks like for them because that's also going to be different from one person to the other. I mean, in Western medicine, we work on fixing problems in the same way that, you know, someone will have, you know, somebody can be very sad after the loss of a loved one. And in Western medicine that's called like adjustment disorder with depressed mood. And it's this, you know, very clinical category categorical approach to explaining something and naming and labeling something and then having it, you know, quote unquote figured out. And I think that life is much more fluid than that. And it's a, you know, Western medicine's a great tool for the things it's a great tool for. But you know, in the same way that you'd use a hammer for hammering nails, but you wouldn't use it to carry water, Western medicine's really great for, you know, an acute pneumonia or a broken ankle or a heart attack, but it isn't great for, you know, helping people connect to a vibrant and joyful life. Yeah.

And I really hope my listeners, it's not about anti Western medicine. There is a time, there is a place, and my God, if I need to end up in an ER and there's a prescription that I need, then bring it. Like it's so important. But I think that as much as we're talking about integrative healthcare and integrative medicine, we're just, we're not there yet. And it's why these conversations are, are so important for people to be reminded that like, all of us have this unique constitution and something that I wish about Western medicine that could be a game changer for my opinion is if in Medischool you were reminded that in addressing every single patient, you had to remind them of their own body's resilience to heal, that's it. Something's so Nice.

I mean, and it's, and it's so funny because, you know, I, I have talked about this even in my sort of prior emergency medicine life. When you break a bone, all we do is make it rest, right? You put a cast on and your body knows how to heal. There is an inner healing intelligence to not just our physical bodies, but our psyche. We're in the right conditions. When you remove the barriers, your body knows what to do. You, you know how to be healthy and you know, quote unquote optimized, right? I mean, that's already, that's caked in. That's what we do. We just get, we just muck it up and get in our own way. And just one thing to add on there around Western medicine and like where it fits in. I think it, you know, I've been, I've been saying, oh, it fits in if you're having all of these acute conditions. I also think it fits into chronic wellness and to living a really health life for some people. So I have plenty of folks I work with and you'll notice, like outside of the emergency department, I don't refer to the people I work with as patients because they're much more than just patients. And they're not necessarily, I think patient implies that they're sick. You know, the people that I work with and take care of, there are some who, we use prescription medications. There are some that we don't there. But what it isn't is a, you've got this problem. Here's a medicine, right? It is not a, a prescription first. In fact, you know, even with my own health journey, you know, I went, I was able to reduce my cholesterol to like, I don't know, maybe 60% lower with diet alone. I still couldn't get it to a level that I really wanted it. And I can look around and see multiple family members who have high, I mean, I have genetic reasons why, and I've tested those why I have high cholesterol. And for me, by the time I was ready to take some medicine to help me get it to exactly where I wanted it, it felt like a completely aligned and fantastic decision because I knew what I could do without it. I knew what my limitations were and I had an informed conversation about what I wanted to do next. And that's really like, you know, it is possible to thread the needle between the best parts of Western medicine and the best parts of ancient wisdom practices and not and non traditional healing or not or traditional non western healing. Right there is that it is possible to do that. And you can leave behind the pill first approach and the everything's a disorder approach. And frankly, you can leave behind the snake oil that is unfortunately also out there in the alternative practitioner space. Right. So, like, no, I don't advise raspberry ketones, and I also don't ask people to go on a statin the first day I meet them because their cholesterol's high. Right. There's, like, there, there's a time and place for the best contributions of these techniques. And it doesn't need to be dualistic. It can act, you can actually unify that in a way that I think is really the sweet spot for, for helping to support people.

I love that you brought up cholesterol. So in the past 14 years of me working in this profession, there's person that I haven't gotten off of cholesterol medication. And I'm not saying this with a badge of honor at all. I just, I feel very blessed to work with practitioners like yourself who, when that prescription comes, it comes also with the education on how to lower their numbers naturally through diet, exercise, mindfulness practices. A lot of the modalities that you have talked about, and the person who stayed on it was somebody who, on both sides of his family, there was like this major genetic component to having something severe happen. So it was the right choice. Right. So I love that you brought that up. Thank you. The other thing, you hovered over this, but you said the words chronic wellness, which I want to start hearing that every single day. We're so focused on chronic illness that the words chronic wellness sounds like, oh, yeah, that's like something that I want to chase. So that's incredible. Do you teach your clients about this, Your patients about with this?

I think that one just rolled out. But I mean, for me, you know, I, I definitely want to be diagnosed with as many chronic wellness conditions as possible, so. Great. Yeah. No, I mean, for, for, for me, I think the, the way I think about health is I, I think already kind of clearly a little bit different than, than your, your typical western doctor. But for me, it's, it's an iterative process. Right. The way that, you know, you look at, I don't know, like an executive physical or just your annual check in with your doctor. They're, they're essentially waiting for you to get sick. Right? They're just checking every year. And then if it looks normal, maybe you'll meet with a nutritionist or somebody for a few minutes and tell you to eat less and move more. And whole foods are good for you and then you see them next year. And if you're not sick, you get a check and again, you know, rinse and repeat. And I think that not only can healthcare be a team sport where you actually have like deep friendship and kinship with the people who care about you, but it can also be something that isn't on a timeline where you have something you're working on all year round. And it may not be the same thing all year, but it's a process in the same way that people go and work with a personal trainer. You're not just going in once a year to work with a personal trainer if you're committed to improving your strength strength, you're doing this in an iterative process that you set goals that are time specific. So you actually have goals to work towards. You have compassionate accountability. I work. One of the, one of the partners in my group is a nurse practitioner, Trey, who's who functions as a health coach in my practice. And you have someone to help actually do the motivational interviewing, work on goal setting, work on tackling obstacles when you actually had something you wanted to implement that didn't work. Work. Because at the end of the day, if you can't go from inspiration and motivation all the way through implementation to habit, to passion, it's not going to stick. And this is why most doctors don't even bother saying, oh, you should try lifestyle intervention for your high blood pressure. They go straight to a prescription because they've seen so many people, people be told, yes, you should try these things, but then nothing really changes and it's because they're not resourced to make those changes. You need that community. You need someone to be helping you actually do that, otherwise you would have done it before you went into the doctor in the first place.

Yeah, what an incredible transformation. Like, I'm just listening to the way that you're speaking to your practice now and having relationships with your patients. Do you know, one of the questions I ask my clients is, is who's part of your care team in helping you feel great and age well? And the majority of people do not even mention their doctor. They don't feel that personal connection at all. They're trying to think of like massage therapist, acupuncturist, but personal trainer maybe, but never their doctor. And I want to shed light on that because I think that for listeners who are actively going out to seek a doctor who can be their partner in health, moving forward is so refreshing. Like, it feels like an exhale like the feeling of ease. Like, finally I've got someone to kind of have their back on my, have my back on their health.

I mean, we literally have like either a WhatsApp or a text thread with everyone on my team, with each individual person we take care of. And it could be book club, it could be, hey, we're, show me pictures from your vacation. I mean, like, I don't, I, I refuse to believe that you have to separate a work relationship from a friendship. Granted, there's all sorts of relationships that ethically should be separated if you're providing medical care. Clearly I'm not saying that and I don't have inappropriate relationships, but I have deep friendships and I think that, you know, it is. I think you could ask any of the people I work with who's part of your, who's in your care team and you know, all three of the folks in my practice would be top of the list. And their, maybe their personal trainer or their acupuncturist or their massage therapist or the other people in their lives who are also, you know, contributing to their health.

That's just a primary care should feel like care again. I think we've got to get back to, to those intentions. So I'm curious then, along your healing journey. So here you are, you've got this strong Western medical background. You're seeing this awakening of maybe some ancient healing practices. Where are you striking the balance between those two now?

Yeah, I think of them as equally important. I think they are balanced. I think ultimately whether it's breath work or it's nature immersion or it's meditation or it's energy work or it's sauna or whatever, someone, whatever appeals to someone. I, you know, if it's, let's say somebody wants to go and really incorporate acupuncture into their, into their healing from, whatever they're healing from, or even just general wellness. I'm not an acupuncturist, but I will help to identify somebody who is well regarded, who we can get working with someone. And to me it's just communication then at that point. So I have folks who are working with acupuncturists and physical therapists and at the same time, and we are in communication with the physical therapist, we're in communication with the acupuncturist. They're all tools to help someone achieve what health looks like for them. And whether it's something, you know, Western or ancient, I don't think it matters. I think you find a plan that fits that Individual it, you won't always land on the plan the first time. This is, you know, there is an iterative process to finding that and it really, I don't, it doesn't matter to me one bit if somebody's using entirely lifestyle approaches and non traditional, non Western, you know, ancient practices, or if they're using those and they're also using some, you know, pharmaceutical agents, or they're not doing those and they're just working on lifestyle and leveraging modern medicine as needed. I, I think that the problem with balancing it is everyone's so different that, you know, it's, for some people you're going to take more from pile A and more from pile B and vice versa.

I'm smiling so much because many times on this show I'll talk about my vision for the future where there's actual integration between your primary care doctor and the team that has, he has to really bring back this holistic view of what it takes to heal. So if you're questioning why am I, I'm smiling non stop that that's why.

Awesome. This is amazing.

I'm so happy. So for listeners, let's say I'm, I'm trying to put this through the lens of people who are like, they're so curious about this world of integrative healthcare. They're so curious about having their doctor really be their healer. But they might also be in a position where they've had a primary caregiver since they were a kid or there's some deep family association there and the same primary caregiver has put them on perhaps one, two or three prescription meds. How can you approach, how can you approach that conversation with your doctor to like, you know, without being like, I've literally had a doctor say, oh, stop reading Dr. Google so much, right? Like, stop leaving everything that you're, you're seeing on social media so much to genuinely being like, no, no, know, I'm really curious in this healing, do I need to be on this medication? Can we work proactively together to get off this medication? How do you approach that conversation? Or what are some recommendations you have?

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think for me personally, when I see a list of med, prescription medications, when someone comes to work with me, that's a topic of conversation of which one of these, you know, or ones of these. Are we, are we really needing, and can we, can we get rid of some of these with and, and granted getting rid of them is rarely just stopping them immediately. But I can say in, in the Same experience you've had around cholesterol medication, you know, lipid lowering meds. I, I've had around antihypertensives or blood pressure medication. I think I've taken, you know, a hundred times more people off of blood pressure medications than I have started blood pressure medications for, for folks the. But in terms of how do you bring this to your primary care doc who may be more of a, you know, allopathic, traditional western medicine documentary? I think again, just, you know, despite the system and what it can do to your psyche, as a physician, I do think everybody went into it really wanting to do the right thing. And I think if I would, I would advise someone going to speak to their primary care physician about coming off of some of their medications to, to, to couch it in the, or frame it in the lens of. I'm really motivated to stop taking medication and I'm willing to do the work that I might have to do on my diet, my physical activity, stress resiliency. I'd like to try some alternative therapies as well. And what do you think is the best first medicine for us to work on me getting off of? Right. And it's just, you know, here's your motivation. You're asking for help and you're saying it's really kind of non negotiable like I which one first? So you're giving them some agency to be part of the contributing team and to feel like they're still serving that role of advising, but you're not going to them. And you know, I think most, most docs don't respond well to. I listened to a podcast and they said that I don't need to lower my cholesterol, so I'm going to stop my medication. You know, it's. And, and it doesn't necessarily mean that that's wrong for that person. That may actually be right for that person. But you know, people want to feel seen. And in the same way that people I work with want to feel seen and I want to feel, everybody wants to feel seen. Everybody wants to be in community and valued. And when you go to a doctor and say, hey, you were, you did all these things for me over the last 15 years and I just want to stop all of it because I read an article, you can imagine that this probably doesn't feel very good for them. So that's, that's sort of how I would, I would approach it is hey, I'm really motivated to do this. I want to do the work I'm looking for your Guidance on where to start and how to make this happen.

And from my experience, a lot of western trained doctors are starting to become a little bit more open. Maybe they haven't, you know, crossed over completely, but they're at least a little bit more open. So I love it coming from your words or your mouth especially, but yeah, drop, you know, from your head into your heart. I think a doctor, any human being will, you know, hear a question come coming from your heart. And if the doctor perhaps isn't your partner in healing, that's when you can re approach. Maybe it's time to find a new practitioner. A new doctor.

Yes.

So with the patients that come to see you, are you immediately running a set of blood labs for biomarkers? What is the protocol? Like, what are the pillars that you try to tackle first in your practice?

Yeah, so I mean, a journey for somebody coming to work with us will look like a, like an, a, a meeting with myself, our care coordinator and health coach and the person coming to work with us. So it'll, it'll be the three of us on the, on the care team plus them really just getting to know people, getting to know what's important to them, getting some of the logistics out of the way as people are being onboarded onto the practice. We will get all of their old medical records ingested into our system. So, so that they don't have to go track those down. We do a broad biomarker set of testing, so a bunch of laboratory testing up front, as well as epigenetics and genetics to really get a really personalized look at them. They will start health coaching right away. So in terms of motivational interviewing and identifying the areas we want to work most intensely on or most intentionally on, and then what are the key areas? I mean, the five key areas that really impact our long term health are nutrition, physical activity, stress, resiliency, community and sleep. So we look at all of those, everybody gets a blood pressure cuff and a body composition scale and a sleep monitor and all the data is being fed directly into our system so we can look after it. And the folks we work with don't have to be taking pictures of stuff and uploading and then we're just off to the races, essentially. Mona, like it's, you know, as soon as we start getting some goals clarified, we've got something we're working towards. We have data coming in. We may need to do some additional testing along the way. We can do, you know, everything from biomarkers and gut health testing and genetics et cetera to body composition scanning to CT, coronary angiograms and full body MRIs and blood based cancer screening and dementia testing. And I mean we, whatever fits that person's particular needs and areas of concern or interest, that's where we'll dive in.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I think it's so important to really call out the fact that you're addressing this. I call it the wheel of life or all these pillars to wellness that are just so necessity that should be addressed at every doctor's appointments. You should be talking about your sleep and you mentioned gut health. These are things that your doctor needs to be asking about. Right. Instead of just what might be your perception or your thoughts about certain things. Like it's the investigation that's really important. The other thing. So body composition scale. Is there a type of scale that you really like? I know this is a random question, but is there a specific scale?

I mean, no brands that I'm super loyal to. I think Withings does a decent job. I think Inbody does a decent job. I mean all of these are, are, you know, they have their limitations and you know, they're not perfectly accurate. But trends over weeks tend to be very indicative of what's going on with someone's body composition. And the weight is an accurate measurement. So yeah, we, we find it to be, you know, pretty useful with the right education and context. But if anybody buys a body composition scale and gets on it once and it tells you your body fat is X percent, don't believe that that's your actual body body fat.

Totally. I'm even less concerned about the body fat in most cases and like looking at skeletal muscle mass and stuff like that in terms of working with someone long term. So I think that that's great. So just for our listeners, in terms of perspective, are you doing blood labs annually, biannually, Quarterly. Is it different for, for every person?

Yeah, so it's different for every person. But I would say we're, we're probably on, you know, mostly quarterly would be, would be biomarker testing, although there are folks I work with who, you know, particularly after six to nine months, we may move to twice a year just because there's really no need to be checking something that's been managed and, and is being monitored in other ways. And you know, I don't want people having to get poked for blood just for the sake of it.

So.

Yeah, you're working on something though.

Yeah. Beautiful. And in practice then I have to ask, what are some, you know, what are Some of the immediate lifestyle changes that people listening can make to address pressing health issues or, you know, chronic inflammation or disease that you're seeing. You've mentioned so many.

Yeah, I mean, if, if I were to, I mean again, it depends highly on, on the individual, but if, you know, if I were just speaking to someone or to an audience and, and wanted to give you general things you can do that are going to be likely to promote good health. Prioritize sleep. Make sure you're getting good restful sleep. Move your body every single day. It does not need to be a high intensity, you know, CrossFit style workout every day, but you need to get physical activity going and really, you know, upwards of an, of two and a half hours of, you know, moderate intensity exercise a week. Do some strength training, incorporate some intensity work. Eat foods that your great grandparents would recognize as food. I think that's probably like the simplest distillation of what good food is. Have some sort of stress resiliency and stress reduction practice and if you want extra bonus points, have a spiritual practice of some kind. And that doesn't have to be, you know, non secular. That can completely be just, you know, not affiliated with any religion. And that's completely okay. Obviously. Not that it's my place to say what's okay or not okay, but for folks I work with, I, you know, it doesn't matter to me if you're a religious person or not a religious person. I think when you can tap into, you know, a greater purpose, I think it, it trickles down to all levels of health. And then I feel like I'm, I must be leaving one out in there. Oh, community. Yeah. So, you know, something insane like, you know, maybe 30 or 40% of men over the age of 50 in the US say they don't have someone they could call if something went wrong or they needed help. I mean like the loneliness epidemic is probably not. Yeah. On the rise. And also, you know, loneliness is on par with maybe possibly slightly worse for your long term health outcomes than smoking. I mean, it's just terrible. We are a social, you know, we're the human beings are, are a tribal and social organism. Right. We wouldn't have survived 150 years ago by ourselves. Like you just, it doesn't work that way. And only in today's society where we feel like I, you know, you actually, where you certainly can live by yourself, but you're not living in accordance with the way we're really, you know, psychologically programmed, which is to be part of community. So Having. Having some community, you don't need a lot that. Some of the studies are like a dog will get you pretty close to not being lonely. And then if you can just get one other human in there, you're off to the races.

So true. I think you're referencing. It's that Harvard study that was done on happiness. Right. Like, your cause for mortality increases. Oh, no. Loneliness is a greater cause for mortality than smoking, like, a pack or two cigarettes a day. A pack. Like, that's insanity. So what I love about what you just went through, when I speak about ancient wisdom and medicine, everything. At the ashram where I grew up, there's a focus on sleep, managing your stress, living in community, being outside, moving every single day, nourishing your body and this, like, spiritual connection. So thank you. This is.

And we didn't. We didn't need that a hundred years ago. Right. And the ancient wisdom traditions, that's just the way life is. Right? You look at, you know, we have this fascination in Western society with, like, the blue zones and places where people live their hundreds. And none of the people in the blue zones are sitting around going, did I get physical activity today? Did I get exposed to nature? Do I have community? Like, going through a little checklist? It's just what life is. And for us, we in, you know, in. In the United States and many other places need to intentionally reconnect to that. It isn't just the way life is. Our life is, you know, Costco and, you know, Instagram. Right. So how do we. How do we get to a place where that just feels like what life is?

I'm so grateful for this conversation and just for you and your story, Shedding light and the transition. I feel like the world. You know, you're a leader. You're really, like, a pioneer. Shifting the way that people are, perceiving the Western shift so you can own it, be part of it. That's okay. It's.

Yeah. I mean, you see my, like, sort of dismissive. Am I a leader? I don't know. I think. Think I'm. I'm. I'm living in a much more intentional way, and I feel like it's much more aligned with my own purpose and values. So if that makes me a leader, I'll say yes.

There you go. I know that this is a story a lot of my listeners will really appreciate. So how do you keep in touch with your audience? Tell us everything. Where do they find you?

Yeah, I mean, easiest way to find me. I'm on. I am on instagram I don't manage my own Instagram account, although I do make my own content. So ikestonemd and then you can find me me@mikestonemd.com and I'm up there as well.

Beautiful. We're going to link everything out. Just a couple of rapid fire questions before you hop off. What are the most common mistakes or misconceptions that you're seeing us make with our health?

I mean just generally that people make with their common mistakes that people make with their health. I think thinking that diving into one pillar of health can excuse you from focusing at least, least somewhat intent intentionally on another. So can you exercise out? Exercise a really non nutritious and toxic diet or environmental exposure? Probably not. So I think that's one. And then I'd just throw in a second which is that running on the treadmill or elliptical is like the best way to get your body physically healthy. I'm not saying that running is, is necessarily unhealthy. In fact it can be great. But we have only in the last 15 years, I think like it's creeping into the popular consciousness that some sort of resistance training is actually really important for body composition and lean muscle mass and you know, aging strongly. So I think that's another one.

Great answer. What's your favorite ancient healing remedy?

My favorite ancient healing remedy, I would again hedge my bets here and say. Actually I'm not going to hedge my bets. I'm going to say yoga. And I'm in the middle of nursing an injured shoulder, so I'm particularly missing it right now because it's not jiving with me at the moment. But I'd say yoga, probably my favorite ancient healing remedy only because it is probably the best example that I've had exposure to of true, like a physical practice that is not even about the physical practice. It's super challenging physically, but it's about aligning your spirit and your mind at the same time. And I think that's just the, you know, what is it here I am talking to you about this with your background in an ashram. But you know, the asanas are like one limb of eight limbs things.

Exactly.

Not even the most important, just a small part of the bigger hole.

I love that answer. And last one, if you had to pick something about modern medicine that excites you, what would it be?

I think the ability to, I think epigenetics would be the thing that really excites me about modern medicine. I mean it is. And not to dive deep into the, the, you know, the background and potential implications. Just to say that we've had this concept of nature versus nurture for so long, and nature, you know, from a biological standpoint, nature is like the sequence of the amino acids or the. The. The constituents of our. Of our DNA. Right. And, you know, whether it's, you know, what your base pairs are, what the code is, and you're born with that. And unless you get a stem cell transplant or have CRISPR technology, like, your DNA is your DNA, that's nature. And then we haven't had a real scientific way of looking at nurture until epigenetics. And I think epigenetics is going to open the door and has already, at least personally and certainly for folks I know, to understanding things that science sort of dismissed for a long time because it didn't have a language to understand. So transgenerational trauma, for example, like, there are epigenetic changes passed from mother to child that are not DNA changes. They're modifications to the overlaying of the DNA through epigenetics. And now all of a sudden, there's a lot of possibility to understand things that were, you know, somewhat. I don't want to say dismissed, but maybe deferred because there wasn't really a good language to understand or a framework to understand. Understand.

And how empowering to know that we can make shifts in our lifetime to not be as impacted by those genetics. Like, wow. I'm with you on that one. Yeah. All right. Dr. Mike Stone, I'm so grateful to connect with you today. Thank you for your time. Let's make Chronic wellness. Okay, I'm gonna hashtag that from you.

I love it. You can feel free to adopt and spread.

I love it. Great insight. Thank you so.