Mollie Eastman x Mona Sharma | LIVE Podcast Recording & AMA

Audiences to kind of tune in or learn about each other, which has been really fun.

Oh, that's so fun. Okay, Is this a newer thing or if you've been doing this for a.

While, kind of within the past month or so. Yeah, it's been really received also, so we're going to go with it. Why not do things differently? Hey.

Yes. Here for it. Well, happy to be a part of it.

What city are you in?

I'm in Austin, actually.

Cool.

Yes, I saw. You know, Kanya, so small world.

Small world. I know we have a few common connections, which I absolutely love, but also, I'm not surprised at all. It's probably one of many, many more.

There's a lot more. You got it.

All right. Well, I'm so excited to talk to you today.

I know. I feel like I've been following some of your work and excited to just connect further. So much to discuss.

You got it. Okay, so let's first welcome everyone who's able to join us live if they pop in in the next few. Otherwise, we'll start for the official podcast recording. And I'm going to just welcome you welcome Molly Eastman, to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, we're just kind of jamming on why we're so excited to talk to each other. I've been really loving your. Your page and the lens that you use to kind of be an educator and love that, that you've declared becoming a former insomniac to now sleep educator, which I think, like, lands with so many people.

It's a journey. Yeah, definitely.

Before we dive in. So we start off this podcast by asking or explaining, as, you know, you should know, this podcast, ultimately, it's around my own healing journey, but I really wanted to merge the worlds of ancient wisdom with modern medicine and support people in helping them feel rooted again. So whether that means rooted in your health or yourself or your life or your vitality or just like that, knowing that we all have that we can heal. So let's start off the podcast by asking, what are two or three things that help you feel extremely rooted in your health or your life and why?

Oh, my God, I'm going to get so literal right now and talk about literally being grounded. Because I had been in spent much of my life in apartment buildings, high rises, disconnected from nature. I actually was just outside. I was going to do this podcast outside, but Austin in the summer, it's like a little hot. You would have gotten quite a glistening version. But, yeah, as much as I possibly Can. How can I get grounded? Not from like a woo perspective are nice to have, but from a biologically hardwired perspective to increase the number of electrons that we are having access to, from kind of a quantum biology standpoint. So for me, that physicality really helps with those safety signals. Starting my morning with morning, of course we're going to be talking more about that, no doubt, but having those coupling, so having the grounding. If you saw my morning, you would probably laugh. It's like I have kind of like a granny chair, like the ground. The novelty has not gone away quite yet for me. So I get. I'm outside, I get sunlight, I get healing kind of rhythms of nature. When we talk about having that very clear sunrise and sunset nature to your day. And not just because we're talking about sleep, but because it really helps orient my entire day and helps me to step into the types of thoughts I'm engaging in, the types of activities I'm engaging in, conversations. You know, we can go real deep today, depending on how deep we want to go. But, you know, even our thoughts exist on a circadian rhythm. So being mindful of that, understanding that, and setting up my lifestyle to support that has been so transformative as a former insomniac night owl, all the things, you know, and not to, you know, give a diss to night owls, because certainly we do have variants. And when we start deviating for those extremes like I was, things go awry. So ultimately, nature, grounding, getting outside, sunrise, sunset, but also mindset has become just over the years so crucial. And I think it's one of the next things that we'll see so much more of in this world of health and wellness and understanding just how much health psychology is very real, how much what we think about shows up in our biology, on our labs, et cetera. No place is that more true when it relates to sleep. Because what is one of the highest efficacy levers right now that we have, that we have data on to pull when we're dealing with insomnia? Difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep? Well, it's CBTI at the moment, Cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which is largely based around how we're thinking. And of course there's other components as well, but that's a big part of it. So those beliefs, kind of having these practices that we are engaging in to really be conscious of, and the author of our thoughts, which is an ongoing thing for me as a, you know, I hope recovering type A overthinker, all the things, you know, Very paramount. So those are a few. I don't know if that was an exhaustive list, but those are some.

No, I think you, you nailed it. You had me at quantum biology and I think that you, you really kind of touched base on how shifting your state, right, that like the energy that we get from nature first thing in the morning, shifting your state that way is going to impact your mindset later on. Well, we'll tell the story around all of that because you and I share a similar healing journey with regards to that hyper vigilance to rely on the morning. Right. So because of that and because of your history, then do you notice when you drift? So a lot of people in this day and age are thinking that.

Being.

Well, living well, being healthy are part of this checklist. And they're checking things off the list. Their morning ritual, their evening ritual, to the point where it's not even a grounding practice anymore, that it might actually even be the root cause of what's causing them. Inflammation or lack of energy or unhappiness. So do you notice when you drift and do you have, is there certain habits that you have that cause you to become uprooted?

Yeah, uprooted. I love that saying. Yes. And that is so such an important distinction too, because especially with sleep, we see that a lot because it's actually kind of like red flags, warning signs when we start getting too obsessed with our sleep. And I know that's paradoxical. I know I talk about sleep all day, every day. And the odd thing, the paradox that lies there is that we're actually looking to build this skill set around sleep. And I'm mentioning sleep as an example, but this applies to many aspects of our life and well being. We're looking to build a skill set around sleep so that we actually don't have to think about it. And it just sort of works, you know. And unfortunately, when people are coming my way, oftentimes they've got, oh my gosh, so many things that they are doing to, you know, really desperately try to get that sleep. And I understand it fully because I was there. And so you want to have a 20 step, you know, system to get yourself to sleep. And you've got this whole wind down, right? That can be part of our sign. And then when we're beginning to have flow and ease, you know, I have a close friend of mine who we joke about kind of willow energy. So how can we be both rooted to play on, you know, your terms and rooted and then have those flex flexible branches so that they can ebb and flow. Right. And so. So for me, personally, oh, yeah. This is. Especially as an entrepreneur, a traveler speaker, all the things. There's been so many points in my life when, unfortunately, I might be catching this. When I'm starting to do those things and I'm starting to, you know, overload my calendar. My own things are going out the window when I say, you know, you really need to have that time to wind down and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, just one more thing. One more, you know, and when those boundaries or. And I don't want to use a firm term like boundaries, because it doesn't even need to necessarily land in a, like, hard way, but just workability, design, and when you start going into reactivity. When I catch myself, you know, rushing, you know, that can definitely be one of those signs. It's like, oh, God, I think I need to rain it in. So it's all about awareness. Now with sleep, there's many different ways that we can approach this, and it does depend on what people are dealing with with their sleep. There are times when it's appropriate to bring in wearable trackers and other times when it's not so appropriate. But for what. I'll say there is, for some people, when it is appropriate, that's been a really cool aspect of awareness because suddenly they can start to see, oh, wow, okay. The last couple of weeks, suddenly my HRV has been really drifting and dipping. My heart rate's been up. My sleep fragmentation or the difficulty of falling asleep, sleep latency, the time it takes to fall asleep, some of the quality of my sleep, I'm finding myself waking up and staying up, all of these things, you know, that can really signal more of a sympathetic dominance. And so that can be a helpful kind of checks and balances as well.

Yeah, that is such good insight. And I think you said something that would probably hit everyone, which is becoming obsessed with sleep. We're living in a world. Yeah. And believe it or not, even as a nutritionist, sleep is actually the first category or pillar that I kind of tackle with with my clients because it's so essential. It's so much more than just this passive restorative state. It's your detoxification. It's when your hormones calibrate. It's when your systems kind of are able to restore. So I guess from your lens, what actually happens in the brain and in the body when the body's sleep deprived, because I think a lot of people don't really notice how serious it is. And, you know, for Entrepreneurs, the hyper vigilant people who end up listening, the people who are really busy. Gosh, the parents, for crying out loud. It's so easy to be busy in today's modern world that we don't notice the impact of too much blue light or the travel or the staying up late or the Netflix. So what happens in the brain when we're sleep deprived?

Oh yeah, okay, well, a couple of things. One for brain specifically, when we are not getting our total amount of sleep, and it does depend on what does that look like? Are we cutting into our nights? Are we staying up too late? Many people might be familiar with revenge bedtime procrastination. This like fancy word or phrase to denote that we're pushing out our own bedtime and it's really just harming us, if anyone. And so when we push out our bedtime, that tends to lob off a very important part of sleep, which is known as glymphatic drainage with a G versus lymphatic drainage with an L. This is with a G. And this was discovered around 2012. So that's really helped to put sleep more on the map, if you could say, even though we've always been doing it. But in regards to starting to get more pretty press or information out around sleep and interest and intrigue, why? Because if we are cutting into our opportunities to get sufficient glymphatic drainage, what happens? Well, we set ourselves seemingly with. We have enough research to suggest that it appears there's a correlation between not getting sufficient deep sleep and Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, dementia, these neurodegenerative disorders. And that's on kind of more potentially a long term perspective. But if we also think about short term, we think about cognition the very next day, if we think about that ability to recover. A lot of things happen during deep sleep that are incredibly restorative, including human growth hormones. So all the efforting that you might be putting in at the gym might be somewhat in vain because we're not able to take advantage of that. For men, we often share too about testosterone and some of the massive hits that can come there, getting the information out around that. And then of course for women as well and all human beings, disruption in our hormonal balance, but from the brain specifically, then we're not able to bring about some of that clearance in the brain. And that is so, so important something that we need to facilitate every single night. Now that's on the first half of the night. Now if you're someone instead that says, oh, I move around my sleep schedule. And sometimes I have the Tuesday Thursday wake up workout or something. Or some reason why they need to get up earlier. Well, that is cutting in more often to their rem. And REM is so crucial too. I mean, you just can't get away. There's no free lunch. And so REM is really our inner therapist is how we refer to that. So that's so. Can be so challenging too, because when people aren't sleeping well, often they're dealing with kind of a stress loop, to put it mildly, or the sympathetic nervous system state. And I have absolutely been there. And what happens often we might deal with more wake ups or just early morning awakenings. And now you're awake. Well, the problem is that then we have this vicious cycle where now night after night we're getting insufficient sleep. We're not getting that inner therapist time to kind of process some of these things that we might be dealing with. And then unfortunately it can exacerbate those problems, which can be wildly frustrating. The last thing I want to say about all this is that it does depend on who is listening and what they're dealing with with their sleep. Because I don't want to freak people out. If you're in one of two camps. Right. So the one camp we actually do kind of want to alert, you know, the negative impacts. And that camp is kind of what you were speaking to. Right. Like the entrepreneur, the busy person. The parents, they're just. Sleep is not even. Well, I shouldn't say that for parents. They're probably definitely thinking about sleep. But you know, for the people that are maybe not putting sleep at their forefront and it's kind of an afterthought. Absolutely. We want to educate and share all these things that can make such a difference and really share. Okay. If you get under six hours of sleep routinely, we do have lots of evidence to support many deleterious effects. All cause mortality, heart disease, stroke, cognitive decline. Many things come about just from having insufficient sleep. And we've got meta analyses to support that and lots of information there. Yeah, right. However, an insomniac, while insomniacs difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, often they really want to sleep. And so they're the ones with the 27 step routine and they bought all the products and they desperately want that sleep. So then when we share all this stuff about this, then they get even more angst and then even more pressure to perform and then it becomes kind of a performance anxiety situation.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, Whether you've dealt with insomnia or not, you've been through periods in your life where, or seasons, let's call them, where sleep may have been more challenging. And you question, and I'll never forget the feeling of anxiety that comes with like, oh my God, I'm not sleeping enough. I'm not getting enough rest. What is this going to lead to? And if that persists for a few days. I love that you brought that up. No sleep shaming. We're not allowed to sleep. Shame. It's indication from your body. But I just love how you make the association with sleep as being one disease prevention. But to your therapist, by going to bed, your REM is your therapist. I just, I love that so much. And from your lines then, what are the top reasons why people are struggling with sleep?

Oh, geez. Okay, well, here is one that I don't think is getting enough press or it might get sound bites, but it might be kind of belittled or diluted. And how I like to frame it is that in 2001, the EPA did a study and they found that the average American was spending around 93% of their time indoors. And that broke down to in indoor spaces and automobiles, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So what does that mean? That means that they're in this environment that is not native to how we would have lived in nature. And as a result, what happens? Well, we begin to go off kilter with our normal rhythms that we kind of started the show about, you know, the sunrise, the sunset, and kind of the having somewhat of our day be aligned with these. Now people might hear this and they say, oh, come on, what could be, could that really be that big of a deal? Yes, it can be that big deal for a couple of reasons. So one, we're looking for really high amplitude light that signals to the body. And this is. You could get really down the rabbit hole on this conversation. We can make the entire episode about light and dark and the major facts are on health and well being.

Right.

But in short, the light that's hitting our eyes is basically right near, even just in, in the setting of where your super chasmatic nucleus is. And so it makes a lot of sense that it's so connected to that signaling of the light and then that is communicating like a conductor to all these other trillions of other clocks in virtually every cell and organ in our body and helping us to stay on top of time. And when we are getting that through a window, like I've got these windows, and so that's why usually my desk is outside when I'm not sweltering. Because when the light is coming through these windows, then it's adulterated light. So it's not going to have that full spectrum. That can help really signal to the body because it changes dynamically all throughout the course of the day. Opposite rules apply in the evening because getting that marked kind of drop from sunset into total darkness is absolutely such a huge cue for many reasons, but also just the physicality. So many people are taking melatonin without the realization that fairly recently we've discovered this element of how the sun helps us create subcellular melatonin. Right? So if we can, if we're not outside enough, we actually have impairments in our ability to create sufficient melatonin at night. In addition to the quote unquote hormone of darkness, how we might traditionally think about brain based melatonin, one piece, but also temperature is a very important zeitgeber or time giver to the body. And if you're in an indoor environment that has static temperature 72 degrees or whatever it might be morning and night or some version of that, that is not helping to give our really clear signals to the body of what time it is and what to be doing when. And that really helps us to create that sufficient melatonin at the times that we need it and cortisol at the times that we need it in the morning, which is crucial as well. So that's a primer because I want to point to that. Because then we see downstream effects because when we have 24 hour light opportunities and temperature opportunities, what we see, people start drifting out and they drift later. So they're eating later. Then they're having cortisol because of that artificial non native light sources at night. Glucose. Oh my gosh, what you were speaking to of the power of nutrition just we want to jack up your blood sugar and mess with your metabolism, sit under non native light sources at night and you know, sit in pretty much the dark by day. And that's going to really, really confuse things. We got really interesting research around that. So that's a starting place.

Girl, you're talking my language. We just spent a month in my rooted academy just focusing on circadian rhythm. And I think a lot of people were really shocked that we're not focusing on just the nutrition and what to eat and movement and stuff like that. But I think if people truly understood how. I love that you say non nature light sources is beautiful how the screen time at night, the blue light is going to suppress your melatonin, as you said, how it's linked to blood sugar crashes, high cortisol, waking you up. You know, in my world, we talk about waking up between 1 and 3am and the impact from all of those things on the circadian rhythm, not only for your sleep, but on every single organ within your body. So I think that this is beautiful and I think that this is why like sleep really needs to be part of like the number one thing that we're working with, with our doctors or practitioners or just within our own homes. And I guess from that, if people are starting to understand this, that was a really beautiful picture that you painted. What are the common myths that you think that people believe about sleep that are actually keeping them stuck? So if they're stuck in this, like sleep trauma or sleep shaming, what is the, the myth that we've normalized?

Oh, well, you said so much gold in there. So one I just want to address real quick what you said about and working in conjunction with our doctors. So I want to point to some of the breakdown in our current system, the way it's set up. And I think by no, on no account necessarily of doctors, they would love to learn more about sleep. And unfortunately the average doctor, even out of Harvard Med right now is getting about two hours of training as it relates to sleep. Two hours of this thing that we do. A third of our lives, on average 26 years are spent asleep. And yet it's kind of thought or something the two things that keep us.

Alive, sleep and nutrition. There's minimal, minimal training, minimal training.

We got a couple hours. It's like maybe an optional Saturday or something, I don't know. So, so what do we think about that is so important because one myth just to throw out there real quick is that, well, my doctor would have caught it. I mean, I go in, I share with him. I've been tired, I've been this, I've been that. And you know, you might be met with, well, here's some melatonin, you know, if you're lucky, maybe cbti. But often it's might go into, well, how is hazard, stress, antidepressants, sleeping pills, et cetera, et cetera. So, so that's a current modality and a current way that we're addressing things. And that's really, really broken. So so many people right out of the gate are already at a disadvantage because if you have a sleep disorder, which there are over 100 sleep wake disorders, then you are really set up for problems because why? Because if we're talking about, you know, sleep anxiety, sleep frustrations, all the, you know, lavender in the world or what have you is not going to impact if you've got severe sleep apnea and you might have so many people have no clue and it can masquerade or sometimes look like you are dealing with insomnia and frequent awakenings or what have you. Because there might be a component when you do have those stress loads. And who wouldn't be stressed if you've been low key, you know, strangling throughout the course of the night, all night long, talk about your opportunity to get that inner therapy. All of those things is just, you know, really impacted. So, you know, compound that for many years. And unfortunately we're seeing that all the time. And I just want to sound the alarm too. For women especially as we start to navigate these different, I love how you said seasons, different seasons of life and our hormones start to shift. We do see that as we venture into perimenopause, menopause, post menopause, that we begin to come more one to one with our likelihood of being diagnosed with sleep apnea as it relates to, to men. So, you know, maybe when we're a bit younger, we might not be as equal as a high likelihood, although it doesn't very much still happen. However, as we age, it starts to really go up because of this change in hormones, change in weight, change in musculature, Many other aspects of things shift. So we really want to get that message out. Because I am biased, I would like to see everyone tested for sleep disorders not just once, but multiple times. I think we'll see that in the future sometimes. Same way we get tested for our blood pressure just time and time again. Because why that's very important. These are important markers. So I think that will be coming. And the access to these are so much easier than they ever were before. We're talking like 100 bucks, 150 bucks to be able to get in the United States to get these at home sleep tests, to at least get some information to start and that can be truly, truly life saving. So that's a place that I would absolutely have people begin to start to advocate for yourself. Unfortunately, at the moment, at the state of the system as it lies today, and to point to what you shared, of course, like, then we start to see this trauma that can come when our sleep has not been working. Time after time, again and again, we can start to get into some of these stories of, well, maybe I used to sleep well, but I guess something happened and now I'm broken and now I can't sleep again. You know, you start to have these thought loops. So this is where I think a couple things can really shine when we start talking about kind of sleep anxiety. Sleep anxiety was absolutely something I dealt with. Now, ACT or acceptance commitment therapy, specifically for insomnia can be a helpful resource because that can help us lean into. And I know this is going to be so, so hard when you're in the thick of it. I understand. But it's, you know, the Chinese finger trap of the more you try to like, you know, get out of the trap, the more stuck you are. The age old analogy and similar kind of thoughts or rules apply or the thinking is with act is that you're looking to accept. Okay, I'm going through this season, this rough patch and I likely to have some of these nights that maybe are not quite as I would like to see them. However, I'm going to have faith and trust and commitment in myself and my abilities. I've seen myself rise to the occasion on whatever five hours of sleep and I know I can do it again. Do I like it? Maybe not. But I can accept that that is the case at this moment. But not putting a cap on what's possible, but simply acknowledging and dropping the resistance because often the resistance is what flares it up even more.

Well, it's that mindset again, right? Whatever you believe to be true and then you're just expecting it. And I think that it's almost like your subconscious is proving or ego even is wanting to prove yourself to be right. So let's hover on two things that you said there. So one, what are the symptoms of sleep apnea and where are people getting this test?

Sure. Okay, great. So now you can probably think of your average avatar that you might imagine for someone with sleep apnea, kind of the, you know, the dad that's maybe has a little bit of a belly and maybe bigger neck, clearly snoring, very loud snoring and certainly even those aggressive snores where there's a disruption, but certainly the presence of that snoring. These are all kind of key indicators. And even anatomically sometimes we might see recessed chin and that's kind of other things to discuss. But there's a whole myofunctional component that happens often with airway, so that's a longer conversation. But you might see that as part of the list of things that you might notice. However, there can be so many other things. So one morning headaches you might not kind of connect that as, you know, source point of sleep apnea. You might not also connect that you are dealing with persistent sleepiness throughout the course of your day. And I get, it's hard to distinguish. It's like, well, if I'm not sleeping, of course I'm going to be tired. But if there's this dramatic fatigue and for some people that truly are getting their sleep but they're questioning the quality for those people, if they're experiencing, they're always like whatever the mom or the dad that's falling asleep in the movie and you're always elbowing them or what have you. It might seem like cute or funny, but it can point to that something's going on. Either we're sleep deprived, poor sleep quality and or could be a lurking sleep disorder. And then we can also look to things like our bmi. We can look to things like is it exciting extending itself to other aspects, bruxism, other ways that you're so to teeth grinding, other ways that you are trying to get that airway to have access to air. And then are you waking up in the morning with kind of dry mouth, maybe a little drool, you know, these things that are pointing to that something is happening with that airway. But particularly because we're looking to foster nasal breathing. A great resource. Many people might have seen his from James Nestor who wrote Breathe and that book really speaks to his almost masochistic approach where he went through a period of time, you know, plugging up his nose. So he was exclusively mouth breathing. And what happened? Well, his sleep fell apart. We see that all the time and yet people are doing that all the time. So the test, multiple tests that you could take and they're very easy to use. One is called the Watch Pat and that's an age old option that's really well established. Another one is called Sleep Image. The Sleep Image ring is also utilizing hrv. So that's a novel component. So it's giving us a little bit of more information around the quality of our sleep. Now you can get these from different providers now, companies like Lofta, Empower Sleep and others, we're about to be offering this because, you know, I can't keep talking about it so much and not have that offering as well. Yeah, but so most of these are going to be very, very affordable. If you're outside of the United States, there's different providers for you. So like in the eu, Night Owl and other things, but kind of check in your area. But usually Watch Pad is One of the most long held and established things that you might get even from your doctor. So often this can be covered by your doctor. Just might take some, some time. But we are seeing more doctors offer these at home tests too. So in case that's a barrier because some people say, oh, I'm not going to go in that lab. No thank you. And then they miss out on like a life changing opportunity.

Oh God, I couldn't agree more. These are just symptoms from your body. Right. And often we don't think about sleeping a symptom because it doesn't feel like bloating or headaches or migraines, but it's something that we've got to tune into. So notice how you wake up in the morning. That's a really, really good piece because it can give you so much of your life back. God, your mental clarity, your focus, your energy, your happiness, your joy. I love that you're hovering on that. And we'll link out to the test as well. I worked with a client last year who she had some weight to lose after being pretty sick with an autoimmune disease. And while she was sick she was relying on alcohol to help her fall asleep. And gosh, the re education. I think a lot of people, well here in LA and perhaps in Austin as well, people are starting to understand, gosh, especially as we get older, you know, you have a drink and you're waking up many times throughout the night. So I had to like really help her understand that alcohol may sedate you, but it destroys your REM cycles and it causes this like fragmented sleep. Does anyone wake up feeling rested afterwards? But I think it's another one of like a bedtime ritual that people aren't connecting the dots with.

Yes. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up and real quick too because I'm glad you called out the weight piece just to further. And then I'll get off my test yourself soapbox is that one. Just to know there's so many cases too of slender individuals that then find out they test. They're like, I don't even have this, why am I even testing? And yet what comes back is that they are dealing with some form of sleep apnea or endor. Well, not endor but upper airway resistance syndrome, uars and some of these different disorders that can point to that respiratory based issues there. So I do just want to point to. Sometimes people will say, well I'm not, I'm not overweight. But it absolutely does increase your likelihood and or severity. We do see that correlation, of course, But I just don't want people to cut themselves out of the conversation if they think that that's a component there.

Such a good point.

Yeah, yeah, it's an important one. And then the last thing I don't think I properly also distinguish is that these wake ups, when people say, well, I wake up to go pee. So it's not a sleep disorder, but that can be a huge misattribution error because if you've been asleep for many hours and you wake up, it can make a lot of sense that you would have to go pee. But. And there are cases, of course, where we play with the volume of the liquids that you're intaking and then we can move that around. But often that is just that happens to be there, but it's not the source point and it's really the disruption of, you know, these sleep disorders. So when you're talking about alcohol. Oh my gosh. So good. So one, I would say that wearables, that's a place where they've really shined when it comes to alcohol. And just really making this point for us. So clearly, because I have seen over the years. So when I went through my period of insomnia almost a decade ago, and over the years I've seen a lot of conversations. Well, you know, moderate drinking, it's not, you know, everything in moderation. I'm not, I'm not meaning to take it away. Of course there's absolutely time and a place and I get it. And I just want, as a, as a representative for sleep that I'm just anointing myself right now. I would like to say that we just. There's few things that I see. We have one, a very large OURA rig database. There's few things that I see time after time just obliterate your sleep. Like alcohol in the hours before bed and multiple hours. Even if you say, well, I'm kind of, you know, happy hour person and it's early enough and what have you, very commonly we still see that show up. And even if it's not overt in your sleep, because some people can still get away with still sleeping, but the quality of that sleep gets all out of whack. So what do we often see? We often see heart rate go up markedly. We often see HRV go down, you know, really noticeably. We see respiratory rate go up noticeably, body temperature often go up. And then if you are dealing with sleep disorders, then we start to see the snoring component really go up and the severity of some of that sleep apnea. 110%. Also, if you're ever at altitude and then you throw alcohol. Yeah. You know, goodbye for the next.

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, the alcohol beast. I mean some people we hear the stories of, oh, my grandmother in Italy has wine every single night and she's totally fine with it and she's trained herself to be that, which is totally great. If you're that person, you do you. Majority of the people that I work with though, with that like glycemic load at night, not only are they waking up a lot, those are the people who are on this glycemic rollercoaster the next day constantly craving carbs and carbs and carbs. Or there are people who we've noticed that if they're waking up a lot throughout the night. I've actually made the association with food allergies. Have you heard that before?

Yes. So food allergies and HRV often can be a nice coupling to get some data around that as well. Not to mention the types of food that might flare up more. Histamine is naturally. What is one of the number one ingredients of over the counter sleep aids is often anti histamines to aim to lower that histamine load. But if we're eating things that to your point, might be inflaming us, having that allergic reaction and or have that histamine sensitivity, then that can be yet another thing that can activate us and make it harder to fall asleep, to stay asleep and can impact our airways and how we're breathing through our nose. Even if you're not dealing with a sleep disorder.

Such a good point. Which makes sense. Your body's trying to purge a toxin. It's alcohol or if it's food. So something to think about. Let's move on to the triggering question. Do we really need eight hours of sleep or is it just a myth? And how do we know how much sleep that we actually need?

So good. Okay, so just to kind of zoom out on what do we know as of right now, which also by the way, I'm hoping that this leaves some element of fascination or intrigue around sleep as well, because it's a relatively new field in a lot of ways. So what I mean by that is if you want to look at the history of sleep as an area of study, you can check out a really great relatively new book called Mapping the Darkness. And. And they kind of go back in history of understanding the prevalence of thought leaders in this arena. So when we think about sleep in general, we Want to understand a few things. So one, we want to kind of go back and understand that non native EMF piece that I was speaking to that was really the advent of when we started dealing with more issues around sleep was when we all went indoors during the Industrial Revolution. So that changed the amount of sleep that we were getting quite a bit. But seven to nine hours is what we're dealing with for the amount of recommended sleep that we say for healthy adults. So when we say eight hours, that's just really kind of pigeonholing us into getting something that is problematic for a lot of people because we might not need that and we might need less or we might need more. So that seven to nine hours is your starting place. What do you see for people with that too? Are you getting pushback there?

Yeah, I think it's for, you know, the hyper vigilant people and you know, these people who are seeking perfection. So this is when things like our reigns and trackable wearables can be kind of can work against you because you're chasing these numbers that might have nothing to do with your constitution. Right. So I try to hold back and I always go back to that seasons lens. Like what is the season that you're in right now? Are you getting enough time outside? And to put it from my personal history, when I did my healing living at an ashram, we actually don't sleep for eight hours a night. We sleep for a lot less. Yes, but I didn't need a lot of sleep because we spent so much time, you know, calibrating our nervous system, living outside in nature, eating real foods, dealing with, you know, moderate, managing our stress and stuff like that. So I'm with you. I think it's different with everyone and I love that you brought up that, you know, being such kind of like a new science that is being thoroughly researched and the differences between men and women as well. But I think that the consistent finding is that people who consistently sleep for less than five or six hours a night have increases in all cause mortality by like 20% or something like that. So. Yeah, But I think that person also knows they're probably waking up tired every day, they're probably having a lot of food cravings, they probably don't have a lot of recovery, like all the symptoms that you recommended. You know who you are and you know, it's time to work on optimizing yourself as well.

I'm so glad you pointed to that because. Yeah, I was just curious if you were getting a lot of people kind.

Of fighting But I think that person also knows you're probably waking up tired every day. They're probably having a lot of food cravings. They probably don't have a lot of recovery. Like all the symptoms that you recommended, you know who you are and you know it's time to work on optimizing your sleep as well.

I'm so glad you pointed to that because. Yeah, I was just curious if you were getting a lot of people kind of fighting for that, you know, oh, no, I'm a short sleeper. We hear a lot of that at different points. And statistically the likelihood of being kind of that quote unquote, short sleeper is fairly rare. And so to your point. Yes, the big cut up, because we do see that it's kind of this U shaped curve. Now what I mean by that is that there might be a smattering of people that do fairly well a little bit below seven hours. And so it seems to be a little, you know, smattering there and then like any U shaped curve, a little smattering a little bit over nine hours. Maybe athletes or people that are really requiring lots of extra sleep. Right. However, when we start going further out outside of that bell curve, that's where we start to see problems. And so what that can look like is exactly what you pointed to. So it seems to be around six hours below that. So six hours and below is where things start to go. Right. If you're having that consistently. Now, I understand everyone's. You're traveling, you're stressed, you have some nights. Like, I'm not trying to stress people out if you have a one off, but if it's every single night, couple things that I would say, because I also see a big red flag that we see for a lot of people is when they say I'm a great sleeper. Oh, how cute. You have a sleep company. I don't need that. I fall asleep the minute my head hits the pillow. Well, the minute the head hits the pillow, people. Those people. I actually. Ding, ding, ding. We want to really check on them because there should be a bit of sleep latency when you do lay your head on the pillow. Now, you know, there's a bit of a Goldilocks effect here, but typically, you know, say it's like 10, 15 minutes or so, a little just stretch of time to kind of transition from an awake state to an asleep state. And if we are someone that says, oh, I fall right asleep and I'm, you know, out for nine hours or what have you, so there would be some discrepancy there. So one we'd want to understand. Are you dealing with sleep deprivation? Is that part of why you're just out so quick and the body is really forcing you to sleep? Because it will start to do that with kind of built up adenosine, the sleepiness component. So it's helping to impair or impact your ability to keep staying up. It's going to help you get yourself to sleep. So that's can feel nice in a certain way. So you just, you don't even deal with sleep because you're so sleep deprived that you don't even think about it. So just work for you. So that, and or sleep disorders, that, that's because of those sleep disorders, you're so sleep deprived. So you fall right asleep. But then sometimes when people are sleeping so long, that can be a sign for us that you are trying to cope with something that's at play, whether that's what speaking to, maybe there's alcohol involved, maybe there's, you know, kind of poor quality, there's some sort of underlying health disorder. Could there be environmental things, mold, you know, things in your space that are impacting you, allergies, et cetera? So could the body be seeking out more sleep to try to help repair itself? But maybe that's example of something that's broken. So we want to address that too. And so it's really understanding if we start to enact all these things that we're talking about. And when you talk about quantum biology or circadian rhythm and trainment, the way we work it with sleep as a skill is basically light, dark, temperature timing, meal timing and type, exercise timing and type, thought timing. We talked about how thoughts exist on a circadian rhythm. And then drug timing or chronopharmacology, the timing of your drugs. And that can look like caffeine, alcohol, THC supplements, prescription, etc. And so when we start bringing all those things into play and really having sleep regularity where you're getting up at about the same time, if you get nothing out of what all this entire podcast conversation, then please be left with we want to try to have consistent wake up times around seven days a week and plus or minus around 30 minutes. Now, ideally we're aligning this with the rhythms of nature and this is in tandem with sunrise and in alignment with that. I'm not saying everyone needs to immediately be waking with the sun, please don't come for me. But what I would say is how can we start to have some alignment there now? And when we start to do that over time because this can even that practice in and of itself having that level of consistency, that can take some time for most people. And once we start doing that, that's when we can start to identify and distinguish your sleep need. So your sleep need is akin to like a shoe size. It's going to be very different between individuals and there's always asterisks. If there are. If you're dealing with the over 100 sleep wake disorders, then that can really be impairing that as well.

Molly, you're amazing. I love the level of empathy that you're putting into this. Just thinking, I can see you thinking about the people who are listening and what their life might be and the season that they're in and stuff like that. I think that that is, you know why?

Because oh my goodness, the amount of times that I would just be trying to find all this information and really in this panic state of how do I get out of this help? And then you would hear some of these things that could land as, oh no, there's no hope for me. Okay, right. And that's really what we want to provide is that not only is there hope if you're struggling with your sleep, and I would like to propose that if you're struggling with your sleep, it could actually serve as a guide gift. And I know that can sound ridiculous, but I really believe it. Because when our sleep isn't working, often something in our life isn't working. There's kind of a barometer of the workability of our lives lies in sleep. And so if our sleep wake system is off and that sympathetic nervous system and the ability to just feel safe and at ease, to fall asleep, if that is starting to go off the rails, then we want to look at what is that area. Is it your finances, Is it your relationship, is it your friendships, Is it loneliness? Is it health, well being? And often there's spokes of that wheel that kind of overlap into lots of areas. So it can be an opportunity.

I love it. So we're not looking at ourselves as, oh, I'm not good in this area. I'm a terrible sleeper. I don't do that well. I'm not good at it. It's not about that. It's about looking at it through the lens of what is my body trying to speak with me? What is it trying to tell me? How do I need to change what I'm doing right now and using resources like this in order to get there? And it's a process. Right? Like it really is a process. I always talk about the concept of having to sleep train yourself as you do a baby, takes time to sleep train a baby, and then all of a sudden you get it. And I think as adults, we have to sleep train during and after times of stress or big life changes or, gosh, states of the world and the state that we're living in.

2025.

Good lor.

Have to sleep train. So. Well said. Sleep train for adults. Exactly. Yes. You know, I purposely, I don't work with people on kids and newborns. Beautiful area. And that's a whole other conversation. And so that's exactly the conversation we're often having is how much of. There can be those similarities with. For ourselves, of starting. We dim the lights, we turn things down, we do this in the evening and start to signal those things. But then on the daytime, getting that message that if you truly want to sleep well, it really starts in your day. It starts from the moment you wake up. And I hope that lands as a empowering place, because for so many people, and I was one of them, it would be the nights where I would just be in a battle with, well, what is the supplement? Just tell me. Cut to the chase. Tell me the supplement I need. But it doesn't work like that, or the gadget or the gizmo or this or that. And it's not about having a whole, you know, kind of litany of things or procedures at night. It's really about shifting our focus to how we're living in our days and how that can make all the difference.

So to that, what do you do if you're one of those people, and for our listeners who, if they wake up in the middle of the night and they can't fall back asleep, or maybe you're sleeping with your partner in bed and that's. That's them. They're up every single night and they can't get back to bed. What are you supposed to do? Stay in bed, toss and turn until that happens? What's the strategy?

Oh, that's so good. This is a very popular question in the world of sleep. So love that you hit on this because there's a couple schools of thought and I'll share my take. So, cbti, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is very clear that if you are awake for, you know, you're in whatever, 10, 15 minutes or what have you, and it's evident that you are awake, that you are supposed to get up and go to another room or another location, do something calming, relaxing for a short period, of time until you start to actually feel the sleepiness kind of starting to emerge. Your eyes are drooping, you start to become more attuned to your body, and then you notice, oh, I'm feeling the signs of sleepiness and the physical component of sleepy, fatigue, etc. So that's CBTI. And now I can tell you that there can be cases, and I was one of them. When they're in, when you deal with some overthinking and you're the person that's trying to go by the rules. And so now you're doing this, but you're doing this, like, again and again and again. Because now you say, well, okay, I'm gonna go try again. Shoot, I'm not falling asleep. Do I have to go out again? How long do I have to stay out? I don't want to be out. I want to be in bed. Like, you know, So I also share that there has become a bit of a softening that I've been seeing with the many. We've had almost 300 sleep experts on the podcast speaking to different approaches with sleep. And I do see a bit of a merging, kind of a Venn diagram of CBTI and acti, Acceptance commitment therapy for insomnia, where acceptance commitment therapy is different. So it will point to accepting that you're awake and it's 3am and you don't awake, and it's, this is how it is, and that's okay. And so. And then you accept and you lay in bed and you start to just get present with like, okay, I'm in bed. I'm feeling the sheets on me, you know, kind of almost like a body scan.

And.

And you just kind of be with the bed. Now, that's acceptance therapy. What I've seen is kind of two. Like a merging of the two. So. Meaning that if you are at a state where you are freaky, you're frustrated, you are just over this night. And, you know, it's like you're. You're boiling. Like, you can feel it. So that can be a great time to kind of like, all right, let's just reset. Let's go out. Let's take a little, you know, stroll. Let's sit in the comfy chair. Different blanket, different energy. Read something relaxing in a very dim light, please. You know, red light or what have you. And then we kind of ease into going back into bed. I've seen that if you're really frustrated, but if you're not there, if you're just sort of awake and you could practice and lean into that process of acceptance and calming the body and kind of just being with yourself. That could be lean into the bed.

You know what just happened? You're telling that story in that analogy. And I was thinking about yoga. So in yoga, when I used to teach a lot in studio, if there's somebody who's just like so frustrated with the pose and they can't get into it and they just feel so frustrated, a lot of those people will just take a second, get off their mat, take a breath and then just come back into the practice, which I like because it breaks that mental cycle.

Right.

It's like changing the scene, which I think is so important. So I'm guessing you're going to say the worst thing that you can do is look at your phone. What most people are doing and looking at screens.

Yes, we are aiming to. How can we start to lower that connection to that screen? Now this is actually, it's been an interesting topic in the, in the sleep community, believe it or not, because there is certain research that will point to almost like an odd talk about sleep training for adults. Almost an odd like pacifier effect for if we're dealing with anxiety and we get that phone and it's kind of like oh, it's familiar, it's save, oh a cat video. Hahaha. Like you know, just sort of like calm your, calm your nerves. And we do see that there can be some application for this in certain cases. So what I mean by that points to kind of how we were starting some things in our conversation. When I sometimes see people have really strict, they say, okay, well I haven't sleeping well, so I'm going to put away the phone hours and hours before bed. I guess I gotta, you know, start reading some sort of like calming thing and maybe I put on music, maybe I stretch, I don't know, what do I do? And so, but those things that were just normal for them, now they're kind of throwing them all out, you know, baby out the bathwater. And I think they're in our modern society there's some happy medium that might exist. And that's for the kind of lead up to bed, just so that you're not making it a performance, like this big deal thing. Now I would say we're really trying to avoid the phone in the evenings for a couple reasons. One, ideally we want to go kind of timeless in the evenings. So setting up your environment so that you are not seeing what time it is because our mental calculations can start to, you know, play against us. Because then we might say, oh no, okay, it's three o'. Clock. Oh wait, now it's 3:20. Well wait, I have that presentation. I have that thing, I have that, you know, conversation or whatever. And so how am I gonna, you know, make it through the night? And so all of that can be a problem. Instead we want to have a timeless environment because then you can kind of lay, you can allow for yourself the space to find that sleepiness again without pressure. So the timepiece is big. But then also of course, the light, we're talking a lot about the light and it's like, right. The proximity to you and just bathing yourself there. And then the content, because it's a lot of unpredictable content. A lot of the scrolling is even more activating than we used to see with research around TVs. So you know, if someone asked me, would you rather have someone watching TV or on their screens to kind of wind down or kind of have that presence in the evening? I would often go with TVs, believe it or not, because you can, depending on the content, depending on the content, we might see people actually in this odd kind of trance like state because you're just sort of in the situation in the story or whatever. And yet with phones nowadays and social media, et cetera, there's a lot more interactivity and kind of task switching and so all of that can be activating and more so activating. So the long and the short of it is unfortunately, yes, we're really trying to put the phones just in a whole other room. So it's not even a temptation.

I love it. Yeah, I think, you know, we're talking so much about blue light and phone and screens before bed and stuff like that. But the impact of scrolling also. I was at a coffee shop with a girlfriend and the person in front of me, it was like the fastest scroll to scroll to scroll story. And I just thought, how is your brain even processing that? So think about doing that in the, the middle of the night. Just what your brain needs to decipher and where you're going to stay and what's going to get your attention. It's so stimulating, so activating.

Exactly. And you know, we're seeing so much research too about the long term effects of this. And you know, we're also seeing a generation that's coming up and with this as a constant, you know, I think, you know, we're in these conversations where we're a bit of a hybrid where we've had life without this and then now It's a part of our lives. Whereas for some people that are coming up in this, this is going to be a whole new world of data around how this is impacting our cognition and our sleep as well. But we do see that absolutely there appears to be overall a negative connotation when we are bringing lots of screen time as it's closely coupled with sleep. For sure.

You had mentioned something and that was cortisol. And the relationship to your nervous system is being tired. It's not the same as being ready to sleep at the end of the day. I work with a lot of, you know, a type people, CEOs, performers, parents as well, where they're just, they're on all day and they hit a block where they're just, they feel so physically exhausted. But it's not necessarily bedtime. Why do some people struggle to fall asleep even though they're exhausted?

Ah, yes, and that can be. It feels like cruel and unusual punishment because you know you are not getting enough sleep or that it's time for bed. You know, that you felt the experience of being exhausted and yet now you're kind of dealing with this wired experience. So tired, but wired or meaning that you're having that difficulty either falling asleep or staying asleep. The nervous system is speaking to us that something is awry. And there are two key hormones that we really want to think about with sleep. Cortisol, as you pointed to in the morning, being that strong cortisol pulse in the morning and then the strong melatonin pulse in the evening. So if we're thinking of time of day, so morning, we want to actually cultivate that strong cortisol pulse. That's why one of the reasons why consistent wake up time is so crucial, because if you're moving around that cortisol pulse all the time, you know, or just, you know, during the week, you get up around the same time and then the weekend comes and then whoop, you're moving it out. And so you, not only are you getting kind of this jet lag like experience known as social jet lag, which I really think needs a new name. We're by ourselves, that we're doing nothing. And the reason for that is supposed to be that from societal terms that we're not having to get up for anything from a societal perspective like to go to work or meet people or whatever. And so we sleep in and we have social jet lag. But that can also result in things like metabolic jet lag as it relates to nutrition. So then suddenly we're not Hungry at the same time because we woke up later, everything starts to fall away. What happens? We push things forward. And a delayed cortisol pulse is a signature of poor sleep and insomnia. Because now you're actually getting more stressed as the night emerges. And I was one of those like, and this is coupled with all this sleep anxiety, what have you, the sun would be setting and I'm like, oh no, I can't do another night. And so, you know, you can start to then activate and have all of that cortisol rising in the evening. And what is a missing mismatch between that rise in cortisol is the rise of melatonin. Because when cortisol is rising, it is impacting our ability to create sufficient melatonin. So that can be really throwing things off. Now how do we restore workability? Well, one we think about, how do we cultivate a strong cortisol pulse in the morning? And that is aided by how we started our conversation by saying, you know, getting outside sunlight, no sunglasses, no hats, getting your skin and eyes exposed. And so, you know, you can start to then activate and have all of that cortisol rising in the evening. And what is a mismatch between that rise in cortisol is the rise in melatonin. Because when cortisol is rising, it is impacting our ability to create sufficient melatonin. So that can be really throwing things off. Now how do we restore to both that morning light and controversially dipping throughout the course of the day and UVB light? Because we do need to make sufficient vitamin D. And unfortunately, depending where you live on the what latitude you're at, you might be at a disadvantage to create sufficient light. Vitamin D. Right. And so vitamin D is a process to be able to create ability. Well, one we think about, how do we cultivate a strong cortisol pulse in the morning? And that is aided by how we started our conversation by, you know, getting outside sunlight serotonin. And that is needed to create sufficient melatonin. So it's a lot of that first dig, no sunglasses, no hats, getting your skin and eyes exposed. Part of how we're handling our days that will show us how we can properly make that melatonin instead of cortisol. Now it's another way that we can amp up cortisol at night while blindness to both that morning light and controversially dipping throughout the course of the day, target style light or something, you know, so we don't want to do that because that's also what, what else is happens There well our glucose goes all out of whack. You might start getting hungry. Then you're going to and UVB light because we do need to make sufficient vitamin D and eat then that when the pancreas is turned on we know that that also impacts melatonin production. One of our I'd say it was maybe our second most popular podcast was with Dr. Sachin Panda. Fortunately depending where you live on the what latitude you're at, you might be at a disadvantage to create sufficient vitamin D. Right. And so vitamin D is a process to be able to create out of the Silk Institute. He was on Andrew Huberman's podcast a couple times but serotonin and that is needed to create sufficient melatonin. So it's a lot of that first part of how we're handling our days that will show us how we can properly make that melatonin instead of cortisol. Now it's another way that we can amp up cortisol at night while blind. Or I can also check our our episode out as well if you want to learn more about this and or check out his book the Circadian Code of just how much eating later can mess with things like that ability target style light or something. You know. So we don't want to do that because that's all to create melatonin at night versus cortisol at night. So that would be some Then also a really cool study just came out in nature from Whoop. And so what what else happens there? Well our glucose goes all out of whack. You might start getting hungry, then you're going to eat then that when the pancreas is turned on. We know that that also impacts melatonin production when with tons of participants is insane amount of data just you know, unprecedented. And they found that around four hours before bed kind of ceasing your exercise activity. I'd say it was maybe our second most popular podcast was with Dr. Sachin Panda. But there was also some impacts of around six hours before bed for certain markers out of the Sulkins Institute. He was on Andrew Huberman's podcast a couple times but it was around six sleep. So depending on where you're at and how you're faring, you could play with that four to even six hours before bed for the exercise component. But please don't take this as a sign to stop exercising muscle mass and so many other things. So those are a couple. You can also check our our episode out as well if you want to learn more about this and or check out his book the circadian code of just so much eating later can mess with things like that ability elements.

But there's so much more which just makes sense, right? Exercise for me is my motivation to.

Create melatonin at night versus cortisol at night. So that would be some. Then also a really cool study just came out in nature from Whoop and so whooping.

It's my happy pill. And it's just, it's motivating, it's accelerating. So then makes sense. And even from a digestive point of view, I'm learning a lot with my clients who really are firm around no food, three hours before bed, they'll notice as they transition maybe from one hour before bed they stop eating to three hours, their deep sleep naturally starts to increase because their body can start to.

Restore and that end with tons of participants. Just insane amount of data, just, you know, unprecedented. And they found that around four hours before bed, kind of ceasing your exercise activity. But there was also some impacts of around six hours before bed for certain markers.

Leads me into my next question for people who are listening, who they really just want to focus if they can.

Get their restorative deep around sleep. So depending on where you're at and how you're faring, you could play with that four to even sleep up a little bit.

Do you have a protocol? Are there promoters in order to try to work with this?

Yes. Oh totally. And such a good question because so many people say exactly that, oh, my deep sleep's abysmal, I want to get that up, etc. So one, I would say six hours before bed for the exercise component. But please don't take this as a sign to stop exercising because muscle mass and so many other things. So those are a couple elements, but.

There'S so much more which just makes sense, right? Exercise for me is my motivation, it's my happy pill and it's just motivating, it's accelerating. So that makes sense.

And even how are you measuring this? So just to be aware that currently now this is likely from a digestive.

Point of view, I'm learning a lot with my clients who really are firm.

Around to change very soon because there's some really exciting players on the market for different wearable tech that I think we're going to start to see even higher grade, clinical grade, exciting things coming. But at the moment how we are measuring our sleep stages, no food, three.

Hours before bed, they'll notice as they transition maybe from one hour before bed.

They stop eating our deep sleep and Our REM is not the best out of all the markers.

On most of these to three hours their deep sleep naturally starts to increase because their body can start to restore. And that leads me into my next question. For people who are listening, who they really just want to focus if they can get their restorative.

Deep wearables usually stage are kind of some of the poorer ones and then some other markers as well. Sometimes like blood oxygen is a little questionable with some of them, et cetera. But deep sleep and rem, so it's kind of their best guess because it's not on our brain. So it's not like you know, on the forehead. It's so it's not brain based wearable. And because of that then we're not able to really ascertain our best understanding of these Deep sleep sleep up a little bit.

Do you have a protocol, are there promoters in order to try to work with this?

Yes. Oh totally. And such a good question because so many people say exactly that, oh my deep sleep's abysmal, I want to get that up, etc. So one I would say and REM stages because there really are understandings from the brain. So we get our best guess and when people come our way and they say well okay, I would Even within your wearable, often you can get at least some idea if you see major deviations. Unless they've changed their algorithm, how are you measuring this? So just to be aware that currently now this is likely but if you see major deviations then that can start to tell you, okay, I've either done something to, to change very soon because there's some really exciting players on the market for a different wearable tech that I think we're going to start to see even higher grade, clinical grade exciting things coming. But at the moment.