The Healing Protocol That Costs Nothing And Changes Everything with Caroline Howell

How do we help them understand that the impact of soil and what's happening to our soil is something that matters so much for what ends up on our plate?

I'm originally from Iowa, and so I was really like in the heartland truly of, you know, a lot of those chemicals in the environment. And, you know, I believe that, you know, those chemicals are intended to remove life. They're really blocking life and killing all of the microorganisms, all of the worms, all of the really like kind of micro life forms that are existing, especially in our topsoil, which There's an entire network happening throughout all of those microorganisms that are feeding ultimately what goes into the root systems of our food. And so when we begin to kill off all of those different microorganisms with these chemicals, not only are we killing the, what are quote unquote, the bad microorganisms, we're also killing all of the good.

Caroline Howell, welcome to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

It's funny, when I launched this podcast, uh, it was a really deep part of my desire to speak with someone like you. So I think that this is so perfectly aligned. In the world of nutrition, you know, we talk so much about food, and yet we have zero concept of where our food comes from and the environment that is needed. And on the other side, I think that we're so disconnected from from nature and from a natural state of environment that we don't even recognize how disconnected we are and how that's impacting our health. So, we have a lot to dive into. And as I was saying before we started the podcast, this all— this podcast ultimately is about becoming more rooted. That's rooted in yourself, in your health, in your happiness. And what I believe is that we all have this inherent knowing that we can heal ourselves. So to kick things off, I'd love to ask you, what are 2 or 3 things that help you feel rooted in who you are?

Oh, I love that as a starting question. Um, well, I would say for me, the— so one of those is, uh, you were just talking about your puppy. I also have a golden retriever. Uh, well, he's not a puppy anymore, although I think that they're lifelong puppies for us. And, um, Just, just being with him and how present he is, how in himself he constantly is. He's never reaching for to be anything other than a perfect dog, just his own perfect expression of himself. It really is a nice, um, yeah, it's a really nice model for me to put myself right back into myself and just remember that all I have to do is be the most perfect expression of my individual self as well. So this is always very rooting for me. Um, and Yeah, the second one is, which we'll go into quite a bit, but I'm really fortunate to live in a place that's really connected to nature. We're really living inside of nature, not just kind of visiting it as a tourist attraction, but it's very much a part of the entire ecosystem. And so for me, it's so rooting to just remember that I'm a part of a much larger system. I'm contributing to that system. It's contributing to me. And this has a really lovely way of making me feel kind of the right size in the world. You know, I get to kind of feel small every day by waking up into all of this magnificent biodiversity and land and just, you know, it's all teeming with life. So this is also a very rooting experience for me that I get to feel every day.

[Speaker:MELISSA] I love how you said that most of us, we need to get extracted from life and travel somewhere to where we experience that awe, but you're living and breathing it every single all day. And that's exactly what we want to tap into today. I have a mini golden doodle. She's 5 months. Yeah, so we mix the two. But yeah, you're the first person to ever really bring up animals. And it's funny, the presence that they bring, right? The joy in the moment just by looking at another human being. It's like time stops and allows you to tune in. So yeah, we— I feel like we should have gotten a puppy a long time ago. So healing. So on the flip side, you've had an incredible healing journey yourself and the transformation that you've gone through. What are 2 or 3 things that cause you to feel uprooted? And do you recognize when you feel uprooted?

Great question. I would say that I definitely, I'm learning to realize when I'm feeling uprooted, you know, I'm tapped into that more and more. I think my sensitivity and my awareness around it is definitely improving. And for sure could, you know, continue to improve. I leave room for getting better at it. But I would say the things that make me feel really uprooted are, you know, there are moments where I feel like everything's right on track and kind of following this timeline or this vision that I have. And then kind of out of nowhere, there's this surprise of a thing that puts us off kilter and As much as I would love to say that I'm so rooted in myself that these things just sort of pass through without it having any impact, the reality is I'm still getting impacted by this quite regularly and just little surprises. I would say even today, it's happening all the time, I think, in little ways. But I woke up today and I had plans to leave at a certain time so I could get back and do this podcast and everything else. And then the other life had other plans and other distractions. And so I was thrown off. And as much as I think the biggest north star for me is to just always be able to allow myself to come back to harmony instead of still kind of adding to the stress and adding to the kind of the chaos of what those experiences are. It's like, well, what conditions do I need to set for myself so that I'm able to come back to myself and come back to this place of rootedness? And oftentimes it's not my nervous system high reaction that's creating those conditions. So sort of retraining myself in those moments for a bit more harmony is the ongoing pursuit.

It's one of my favorite words. And I love how you position that because I think for a lot of our listeners, we think of health and wellness or, you know, the second you get to peace or the feeling of harmony that you've made it when that's not life. Like, even as a nutritionist, I haven't made it, you know, I'm constantly on the journey. But I think that the work, especially as I age, I'm finding I'm just quicker to notice when I'm out of harmony, and I just, I'm not judging myself the way that I used to in my 20s and my 30s. Instead, it's like, okay, I'm here and I will be able to move past it, but harmony is the goal. Harmony is the North Star for sure. All right, we're going to dive into some rapid-fire questions. All right, so whatever comes to mind first, and then we're going to go deeper into all of these topics. So the first one is, overrated or underrated? Spending time in nature as a wellness protocol?

Underrated.

Absolutely. What's the worst thing modern living has done to our bodies in one sentence?

Disconnection.

True or false, you can significantly improve your health without changing your diet by changing your environment?

True.

Yes, sister, we do. I agree. What is the one thing about regenerative living that surprises people when they experience it firsthand?

How much energy they get to tap into.

Last one, hot take. What's wrong with how we currently think about wellness communities and retreats?

Hmm. I think the opportunity I see in them is that oftentimes they create an environment of like even more separation. Um, there's, there's, the outcome is a bit more of like, I'm somewhere now that where other people aren't. And whereas, um, I think that there's an opportunity to, um, yeah, build bridges back and to, to find places where we're more similar than even more separate.

So good. Yeah. I'm curious to hear your intake today because I even feel like wellness right now, it's going through this rebrand where a lot of people are going away on these retreats, and they've become so curated that there's still massive disconnection. And I totally get that concept of wanting to get away and unplug, but if there's still disconnection, you never really feel whole. You're constantly relying on other modalities to fill you up instead of nature just doing its thing. So, we're going to dive into that, um, especially because of— if we think of the lens of suffering that's happening today, right? So, you know, that Americans spend probably, what, 90%— is that the latest stat? 90% of their time indoors these days. And right now, I mean, I'm in the bubble in Los Angeles, but we're talking so much about what we're putting into our bodies, what we're consuming, the supplements, the foods, the peptides, all of those things. But what would you say is the impact of living in environment, how our environment can actually shape our health?

Yeah, I mean, this is such an important, um, yeah, just focus in my life right now because I'm, I'm developing real estate down in Panama and the entire focus is around how do we develop an entire environment for people to thrive and to be healthy. And I think one of the missing pieces to the story and some of the wellness conversation for me is that like people are always trying to optimize. They're always trying to like, how much more can I I squeeze out of my performance or of my muscle growth or whatever? And they're not asking the question like, what would harmony feel like in my system? Like, what would balance feel like? What would be the optimal state? Instead of optimizing for performance, how am I optimizing just for overall well-being, for overall rest, for overall recovery? And so, I think that there's Yeah, it's an interesting sort of way in which the wellness community, I think, in some cases, not all, not across the board, but sometimes the overreaching, even for this kind of goal for all of us to live until we're 140 or forget what the latest like aspirations are. But like, you know, why? I mean, I think that there is a better question for me at least is What's the vitality of the life that I'm living? And if I am going to occupy this Earth for a really long time, what type of balance and restoration am I a part of? Not just within my, but also in the entire planet, in my environment. And maybe then if we can actually be positive contributors to the entire environment, then we might be worth— it might be worth for us to live to 140 or however long we want. But if we kind of continue to be this extractive mindset as we occupy this earth, I really question whether or not living to 140 is the right goal for all of us. So our environment is continuing to suffer because of that. And I actually think that also influences our ability to live in a healthy way on this earth quite deeply. And that's a big part of the driving philosophy of what we're trying to do down here in Panama. So for me, it's a really foundational piece to the entire puzzle. And I know from my own personal experience living down here, the wellness that I have tapped into because I'm living in a really thriving ecosystem that is incredibly diverse, I can feel the connection to my own, like, diversity in my own biome and my own wellness around that and my own resilience to different diseases or different, what, you know, viruses, bacteria, whatever. I feel more resilient simply because my environment is actually quite resilient. And so I'm a big believer in this as a concept and really devoting a lot of my life to create places like this where people can really feel healthy.

I'm starting to believe, even as a practitioner, that we've really gotten it all wrong. You know, I did my greatest healing when I stopped all the protocols, the hardcore, the hardcore workout, what society and media was dictating me to do. I actually just went and unplugged. And I've said this a million times on this podcast to my listeners, I hope and I pray that people can experience going to visit a retreat like yours or to an ashram so that they can really just experience the impact of filling up. And I love that reframe that you gave around what's the vitality of the life that I'm living, because a lot of us are disconnected. And even around, you know, to your point around what— how long are we going to live? So much of that is fear-based. Yeah. You know, we're terrified of dying. We're thinking— we're so focused on "eating well," "being healthy" in quotations because, "What if?" Right? Instead of living life to the fullest. And I have a feeling what you're describing is, if you can truly show up and have that harmony and vitality every single day, you're not thinking about any of those protocols because you're full. You're coming from a full space. And I was laughing a little bit while you were speaking because I remember once traveling, we were traveling in Europe and we were visiting a bunch of farms. And when we came back, I remember experiencing like a, ah, finally I'm back. I'm back to all the things, right? The places for the IVs and the biohacking and all of that. But immediately I was able to catch myself and think, what if I don't need that though? Like, what if I lived somewhere where the need for that just went away. So, I'm curious in your mind and from the people that you've connected with, how do you think that we've gotten so far away from our natural environment, from the environment that we need? And I think for many of our listeners, let's ask this question, like, have you even noticed how disconnected you are from nature? Do you find that most people notice? Like, you probably find that it takes a few people for people when they come to visit you to settle, to ground and then they finally realize. But how do you think that happened? How did we get so far away from the natural environment that we need?

Yeah, great question. I think so much of it is just we're all on this path that largely has been prescribed to us, right? I mean, we live in an environment where, um, we live in a world where money is the currency. We have to make money. We have to, you know, invest money, you know, spend money in order to receive our basic needs. And so we get in this system that kind of mandates that we live close enough to be able to make those resources and to feed ourselves and to sustain ourselves. And that system is largely designed so far to disconnect us from nature, that it has been that way over the last century. I'm actually really hopeful and really believe deeply that the next century is going to be about reconnecting ourselves to systems that are actually living. There's so much now in the world of artificial intelligence and everything else, which I think is an amazing— I think an amazing tool, but I actually think it's just going to reflect back to us that it actually can do all of this artificial mechanical work better than us. That's what, that's sort of what its function is. And it will redirect us back into environments that are living and that are really thriving. And so I just think that, I'm not sure, I don't know that I believe there was some dark intention behind all of it or whatever else, but I think that we got into this path that kind of led us to what is now what I would call kind of the largest expression of disconnection that at least I have faced in my lifetime and in the world. And I know that I have answered the call, and I know many others are answering the call as well, of really questioning that reality. And is that what's right for us? And do we want to create another option for ourselves? Because finally, our bodies and our systems are I know for you and me as well, really yelling at us and kind of hitting and punching us in the face sometimes, not so gently of like, hey, wake up, you guys are— this isn't working. And what is the environment that I need to create for myself, both the physical environment but also the social environment, my environment, my connection to food, my connection to water, so that I'm actually able to participate in a really healthy system again that is living and not a system that is designed for disconnection and sort of artificial systems that keep popping up all over the world and distracting us. And so I'm really excited to see that people are talking about it. You've been such an important voice in the space for what is it? How do we even remember to ask ourselves, like, do we feel well? Like, for me, this is sort of the first question that so many of us have not remember to ask ourselves is like, how am I doing? Like, what's happening in my body? What's speaking up today? And to really honor the temple that is our bodies and to understand that this is the portal for all of our transformation. And so how do we create spaces that are really encouraging the asking and the listening of whatever those answers are so that we can come up with some new options that feel better, that have better outcomes for everybody. And I'm really excited that that's becoming more in the zeitgeist of conversations because I think people have really reached the end of something in terms of what we're seeing in the world today.

So beautiful. Yeah, I think you nailed it. I think we have to make it part of the conversation every day. And you used a word that's so kind of special to my community, which is remembering. And I I agree with you. Like, there isn't some dark force that's causing us to drift. It's just part of modern-day living, and we can be an equal player in modern-day life and AI. But the unfortunate thing is that we're spending, what, like 7 hours a day in front of our screens, in front of technology, inside artificial lighting, eating artificial foods. And when I describe this process to my clients, I just talk about the concept of drifting. Like, We know what it means to be in our balance, to operate at our best, to live our optimal selves, but then we start drifting and we don't notice the drift until we're too far gone. And when we're too far gone, it shows up as symptoms within the body or overwhelm, or for me it was anxiety, heart palpitations, you know, eating foods that didn't serve me. But then we start to remember and we remember whenever we go back into nature, like it's the simple act of going back into nature, like, ah, instantly you take an exhale and it's like, ah, the cells within your body start communicating with the cells within nature. So thank you. Yeah, I just think that wellness has become just so loud that we've forgotten to witness the power of nature to heal. And I will say it again, like, I think the human body is probably the most intelligent technology on the planet, but we have to give it the resources that it needs.

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm always amazed in my own healing journey as well. And I get to witness this and kind of experience this in our home every day. But it's amazing just how much life wants to come back. You can almost feel the aspirational nature of life, that it's reaching for something. It's reaching for something that wants to express itself, that wants to have health and vitality and wellness. Ultimately, life finds a way to express itself. And I think, yeah, like you said, just finding the modalities to allow the most vitality to come through is really kind of the inquiry that we can all move to versus just how do I continue to extract performance out of myself, which I think is a lot of what the wellness conversation around so far. Yeah.

So much pressure. So much pressure.

Yeah.

There was a paper in 20— there was a paper in 2024 that introduced this concept that I loved, and they called it nature deficiency. And what that means is biodiversity loss in our environment directly causes biodiversity loss inside the human body. And we know that this biodiversity loss impacts our immune system. It causes chronic symptoms and even chronic disease. So What would you say is the connection between the biodiversity around us to our health and the biodiversity inside us? And I'm sure that this is something that you've witnessed firsthand. Give us some insight.

Yeah, so I get to go hiking in one of the most rich biodiversity environments that exists on planet Earth today on a daily basis. So I feel incredibly fortunate, and I can really sense and feel in myself this connection between the health of the land and the health of me. And so that's been what has been such a driver and such a motivation for us to really restore this land because we can really feel and sense the connection of its restoration and our own restoration. So this is a lived experience. I'm not a scientist around this. We are interested in doing some experiments on people who have interest in moving here to see, can we measure the metabolomics is a really good place to start. Could we measure the metabolomics, which is really understanding how much life are you metabolizing and how much life are you cycling through? And you can measure metabolomics through a simple urine sample and then tying that to the metabolomics of the soil health that exists on the land. And so can we draw some of these interesting experiments going on? So I wouldn't say that we have this quite yet, but it is a goal of ours to see if we can have some guinea pigs who want to participate in this with us and move down here, at least for a little bit. Yes, good. Let's do it. I can't wait to have you guys down. But it's really possible today. And this is what I can see as the benefit of all of this artificial technology and everything that's been created is we now have the tools to actually just turn the lens on all of these resources and be able to use those tools to measure the impact, our own impact on the land, but also the impact on health, impact on, um, real restoration of our environments. And so I think it's, we're actually entering into a really exciting era for being able to use all of this, um, artificial systems in order to really reflect back to us what's true, what's working, and how do we actually enter into an era of even more regeneration. And so, um, I'm very hopeful about all of this. But yes, I definitely have noticed this trajectory of improved health in myself. I'm an entirely different person than I was when I first moved here 3 years ago. And not only that, I think the other exciting thing about it is when you're a part of a system that is regenerating, and that system includes you, the other animals, the other wildlife, plant life, fauna, the land itself that is improving in its health and vitality. The cap on that is really endless. You know, I mean, there's really no cap on what is possible in terms of the different life that gets to be exchanged from an interaction perspective and from a vitality perspective. And so it's so exciting to feel hopeful about, you know, being a part of a system that's really continuing to improve itself and ultimately add value in the form of higher vitality. To all of the people who are a part of it. So I think that not only is it— I'm a big believer that those studies will show that there's a deep connection between the biodiversity of the soil, of our own biomes. It's cool that we now have ways that we can test that. And I just know that my own visceral experience of that same restoration has been an extremely profound experience. And so, yeah, but I'm very open for other people to add to the dataset. I'm excited to do that.

Do you know that you completely light up when you talk about this? Like, your face, your energy, your posture, everything just completely lights up. Yeah, it's so contagious. I love it. And it's really frustrating living in a world where we've become so dependent on the data, on the science, and on the studies to prove these things, right? But I've said for years, and gosh, I'll be the first person to volunteer to come down to see you, because I've always said if I take two people and I put them on the same food protocol, maybe the same supplement protocol, the same mindfulness practices every single day, the one that is in nature, connected to nature daily, the protocol will disappear completely. Like, they will become health and wellness. And I shared with you, I think, or I think someone on our teams did, you know, we made a very bold decision last year to move out of the city into Topanga in California, which is like treetops and mountaintops and and dirt and all of those things for my skid and my kids, and it wasn't ideal at all. It was a big sacrifice, but I'm seeing firsthand the impact on our nervous systems and on my children and how they wake up and their sense of lightness, just not being surrounded by, you know, the LA helicopters piloting and the dirt and the noise and all of those things. So while I know that isn't a possibility for everyone, I think that the future of whether it's travel or tourism or whatever it is, I think that if the focus is on feeling your best with a connection to nature, and this is what we'll dive into with, with your work, the needle is going to change. It's almost like it's, it's nature's law calling us back to heal, and we can't deny it anymore because we're all going to start to feel it. And I think, um, yeah, there's going to be more of a drive to move away from like the all-inclusives where people have to go and, you know, wear this veil of disconnection through alcohol and food and stuff like that into connection through soil and trees and community and all of those things. It's so powerful. So powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. And congratulations on the move. That's really exciting. And yeah, I think that more and more people are just, yeah, answering this call that is nature calling us. I think we can all feel it to say that she wants us to come home. She wants us to heal and she wants to hold us and she wants to nourish us. And you can really sense that. And it's such an important— for me, it's been such an important thing to say yes to. You can really feel how the disconnection with nature really funnels the disconnection in all the other areas of our lives. It's sort of like the original connection. And so if we can restore that, I think that we'll naturally see a lot more peace in the world, a lot more harmony existing between people and relating because that original kind of wound gets healed when we kind of answer the call and go back home. So I'm excited for you guys that you're able to spend more time in the trees.

Tofangos. Well, let's shift this now to talking about our soil. As a nutritionist, obviously I think about this all the time. It's starting to become more of a conversation when we think about where our food comes from, but a lot of people are completely disconnected. They still think of soil as just being dirt. They're not thinking about the organisms and life force energy that comes from the soil, which we need. How do we help them understand that the impact of soil and what's happening to our soil is something that matters so much for what ends up on our plate?

Yeah. So I'm learning a lot about soil right now. So I'm kind of in the depths of soil at the moment. And yeah, one of the challenges that I ran into on my health journey was I was kind of diagnosed with every type of autoimmune disorder, which was just to say that they had no idea what was wrong with me. And so I think that's happening a lot and has happened a lot over this last decade. And What ultimately I believe was happening was that I had glyphosate poisoning and that I had, you know, there's chemical poisoning from all of the agricultural chemicals that are sprayed onto our food. I'm originally from Iowa, and so I was really like in the heartland truly of, you know, a lot of those chemicals in the environment. And, you know, I believe that, you know, those chemicals are intended to remove life. They're really blocking life and killing all of the microorganisms, all of the worms, all of the really kind of micro life forms that are existing, especially in the topsoil, which there's an entire network happening throughout all of those microorganisms that are feeding ultimately what goes into the root systems of our food. And so when we begin to kill off all of those different microorganisms with these chemicals, not only are we killing the, what are quote unquote, the bad microorganisms, we're also killing all of the good. And it's just like antibiotics. Antibiotics in the human medical space. I mean, that's ultimately what these chemicals are, is just one large antibiotic, and you don't get to choose which ones you're killing. And so ultimately, I think our solution has gone to a way where we're just going to kill out everything versus ask a different question, which is to say, just to have a curiosity of to say like, why is this microorganism that I think is bad here? Is it actually just a symbol of imbalance in the system? And maybe instead of killing everything, can I actually introduce something new that would potentially bring the system back into balance and be able to overcome the influence that this negative microorganism is having in the system. And so this is, I think, a different opportunity that we could talk about. This would be a regenerative solution to the soil, whatever is happening in the soil with the pests and other things. But ultimately, you know, when we're— those, like, or those antibiotics are getting passed through into our systems and we're digesting those, we are truly just consuming an antibiotic. And I think that that's where we've seen ultimately a lot of these different insensitivities emerge, is that we no longer have a diverse enough biome to overcome even the smallest, you know, kind of sensitivities. A lot of people have gluten sensitivities. I actually think that what's actually happened is we've we've killed the biome in our stomachs so much that we just don't have the health to overcome those sensitivities anymore. And now they've become full-on avoidance patterns that we have to pursue. And it's just even more disconnection at the end of the day. So it's sort of this sort of race to the bottom. Whereas I think that there's a different movement that can happen. We can actually be introducing healthier things into the system so that we're healthy enough to overcome these things. And this is what's so exciting about, I think, a lot of this movement around regenerative food systems, which is really asking those questions of instead of spraying, what needs to happen? How do we actually move from these monocrop industries that have taken over largely the agricultural space in the United States and move back to a biodiverse production system? That's ultimately what the journey that I've been on down here. We're actually making our own soil. We've reintroduced red wiggler worms into the soil systems at Canopy for people to eat from and to be determined on ultimately the health benefits. But I can tell you for sure that the food tastes incredible. It is amazing. The flavoring that gets reintroduced to the food systems as soon as you make this change into healthy food or healthy soil systems. And I know that the consumption of my own or of eating that for myself is having incredible health benefits as well. So I'm not the person that has all of the data yet. We're trying to get it. But I can say that from my own health journey, I'm also just satiated differently. I don't need to eat as much. The flavors are incredible. I'm not hormonally being tricked into eating more and more. So it's a very fulfilling experience. You actually feel good. You feel satiated. And the taste is incredible, which is, I think, a very important indicator Does this actually taste good to my system? And that flavor profile, I think, can actually tell us a lot if we're willing to sort of sit there and be present with it. So I'm a big believer in the soil systems coming back. I also think from a global warming perspective, I think it's the most obvious potential change that we could be making as a society to stop with all of the chemical spraying and start to be able to see small margins of improvement in our soil systems to be able to recycle the carbon that is in the atmosphere. It's really a metabolism issue of that carbon. If we have very living soil systems and living forests, they will metabolize that carbon for us. And if we could just remove the artificial chemicals that we're spraying on everything that are blocking that, we wouldn't be in this same climate crisis that we're facing as well. So to me, it's the single most important thing that we need to do for our own health, for the health of the planet, and to be able to enter into this cycle of living again. And it's so exciting because we get to directly benefit in being nourished by those food systems and soil systems as well. So to me, it's the direction that we have to go. That for me is what needs to happen for sure in the world. And hopefully we'll start to see more and more creative solutions that bring us back to that.

And I hope it, you know, this is something that still needs to go viral. The unfortunate thing, especially living in the US, is I wonder even for our listeners, when we hear about glyphosate, the health of our soil, the health of our water, our environment, shutdown happens. And we just feel there's such a sense of overwhelm, right? And yet the ability to cultivate healthy soil is at our fingertips. And this is something that I think ancient wisdom has known all of our ancestors have known from the beginning. And there's so many incredible educators out there who are studying the microbiome, declaring that what we know about the gut microbiome is so minimal, but it's evolving so quickly every single day. But there is an undeniable force that shows our connection to soil and the microorganisms that come to us with how we grow our food and the microorganisms that they can feel within our body is directly associated. And, you know, even around the bacteria that come from food during different times of the year and how that can support our immune system as well. You and I have a mutual friend, Dr. Zach Bush. Go check out the episode with him that we had where he talks about this exactly. And he's got such a beautiful way of declaring kind of like the emergency and the the state of our soil and the destruction that's come from it and the state of the world today into the potential for healing in the future and the fact that it is right at our fingertips. And I think that's exactly what you're experiencing. And it doesn't surprise me that you taste food with more flavors and that you have to eat less and your body's in more alignment because you're getting more nutrient-dense food. It just— it's common sense. I don't need a study to declare this for me. It just makes sense.

Well, and I appreciate the desire for studies because I I think that there is so much misinformation in the world. So I appreciate this kind of desire to, we wanna prove it. The challenge has been that, you know, a lot of the institutions that are making these decisions for us are now also controlling those studies. And so I think that there, this enters into an entire different conversation around just like how much mistrust there is in the people who are ultimately running these decisions for us and, you know, have so much influence over our food systems, which is why I think people quite naturally feel the overwhelm. It's like we just feel helpless. Like, okay, we understand the chemical agriculture is a really big problem. People don't even know where to begin to go to the solutions for it. So I totally understand the overwhelm that you're describing. I also have that sense. And yeah, I'm just really excited for just creating new options, like however it is possible to get, you know, different options for where the food is coming from to ensure that water is really healthy, health, it's so important to me that we're taking care of the basic needs of humans on Earth in a really high-quality way. To me, this is where all of the technology should be focused. How do we nourish ourselves? How do we make sure that we're incredibly healthy, we live in healthy environments? And it's disappointing that so much of the technology is pointed in other things. And I think that's where we've seen so much distrust in the governments and in the you know, various systems that are controlling all of us. And so, yeah, a massive opportunity, I think, to take back control over some of these thoughts for ourselves.

Yeah. Let's, uh, I hear you're a big puppy now. So cute. Well, let's put this through the lens, you know, let's just say you are somebody who's listening and you're overwhelmed, or maybe you're a parent, you know, we have to think about the, the food that we're getting for our families, for our households, for our children, if it's lacking that biodiversity, and maybe you have a child who has to go on antibiotics or some sort of a medication, who has been on antibiotics multiple times, it's like we're already set up with an ecosystem that isn't at its capacity to do what it's meant to do, which is to heal. And it's no one's fault, but I think that we have to turn that frustration and fear and overwhelm into Action. And like, the environment is going to respond. CPG, big food, all those agencies are going to respond when we make a control. And often the only way that we can have control right now is through our dollar. So looking for the incredible brands out there who are paying the fees that they need to get that glyphosate-free certification, or who are putting money back into feeding the soil or into the land where they, they take their food. I think it's more important now than ever, and it's also something that you can do that's going to help you feel more empowered. I'd love to know a little bit more about how you're restoring a watershed. So you're bringing a seasonal river system back into health. What does the quality of water moving through a landscape affect health and everything living in its ecosystem? What is the impact?

Yeah, [Speaker:JULIA] great question. So Yeah, so we have inside of one of our land projects, it's called Canopy, a, what's called a quebrada down here in Panama. And a quebrada is basically like a ravine. It's, you know, sort of the rock formations that are coming, that are really forming the waterway and the watershed throughout different mountains and hills that come through our land. And we own the land around this quebrada, we're stewarding this land around the Cerrado from its sort of origin all the way as it trickles down into the ocean. And so it's been really amazing for us because we've been able to— we've planted so far on our projects around 40,000 trees, all of native species, about 80 different types of species, all really mimicking a wild rainforest. And we've had a really high live rate. So after our first year of reforestation, 95% of the trees actually lived on the land. And so, you know, we talk about kind of the living, you know, how much life is sort of aspirational and how it really wants to come back. We experienced that firsthand in such a deep way on Canopy. We could just feel that the land wanted to be home to so much more life and, you know, to create a shelter for so much more, so many more animals and to really nourish all the residents around. It was just one of the more hopeful moments that I've had in my life. And, uh, this was a really important initiative around the restoration of this watershed because this area where we live in, in Playa Venao, Panama is what's part of a tropical dry rainforest. And what that means is that we go through a pretty significant wet season and a pretty significant dry season. And the The different life forms that exist here are actually really interesting examples for us to study because they go through patterns of needing to enter into periods of deep resilience. So because they have moments and seasons of a ton of nourishment, of a ton of rain, but then enter into about a 5 or 6 month period of the dry season, they have a lot to teach us about how are they surviving these periods of droughts. And It's a very fascinating ecosystem to observe. And what you see is that they're really surviving through collaboration with each other. And so much of that is influenced by the watershed. And so how much water can actually be absorbed and maintained in all of the different life forms on the land so that it can be sharing that, those water resources through its root systems and through the different fungi underneath the ground and sort of the understory of the forest so that it can really share resources. And this is aspirational. Inspirational for us for so many reasons. I think we all could learn a lot. There's so much wisdom in the way that these systems are really surviving together. And the importance of this for our watershed has been really dramatic because ultimately this water system is feeding down into a valley where we're planting a lot of our food systems. And not only are the Is the reforestation initiative ultimately driving down more water just to save into the ground and have it be flowing all year to even during the dry season, it's still flowing almost all the way to the ocean. Wow. We're able to, yeah, we're able to really restore from a quantity perspective of the water with these reforestation initiatives just because of the sponge-like nature of the ground, of the trees, of improving our topsoil so that it's really restoring the the amount of water that it's able to retain. But not only that, it's also acting as one of the most intelligent filtration systems that exists. And so, you know, we as developers are calling ourselves these living systems developers and the water that we're delivering to our residents ultimately is filtered at the home level. But we also, the kind of a living systems way or strategy of thinking about water would be that you restore the entire watershed from its origin. And that's what we've really done at Canopy. With the restoration of this in the reforestation initiatives is that all of these root systems are acting as incredibly important filtration systems as well. And so we're able to stop agricultural chemicals from seeping into the water through restoring the land all around it. And any other bacteria or diseases or anything else that might be flowing through this are ultimately getting absorbed absorbed through the natural systems of the roots and of all of the different life forms that are existing around this. And so it's been a really fascinating project to work on. And so far, we're actually just in our second dry season of observing this, and we've had way less rain this year. But even still, we're seeing that the water is flowing through the Quebrada more and longer throughout the dry season simply because of this restoration. Process. And so, we're collecting a ton of data around this, so we'll be able to see the trajectory over time. But it's amazing to visualize and to have that kind of real-world example that you can see. And we just know that the quality of the water is being improved so significantly because of all of these root systems and filtration systems that are acting naturally. So those are just some of the ways that it's important for us. But there's also a direct benefit for us as humans because we now get to drink some of healthiest water that exists. And this is a huge— this will be, I think it already is such an important component to humans, right? I mean, water is sort of need number one. One would argue oxygen, water. And so, you know, we— to me, it's so important that we're finding solutions to find resilience for these resources in our environments. And as real estate developers, we consider this as important in what we're delivering to our residents as the homes that we're delivering, because it's like, if we're not able to create an environment where people have the nourishment that they need to just survive, that we haven't really created a very safe home. And so, it's been an amazing learning process. We're still learning, collecting a lot of data. So, we're excited to be able to publish some of what we're learning. And, a lot of it though is just common sense. Like, yes, we'll have the data to support it and it feels good. We're seeing it real time that the water is, you know, is flowing a lot longer throughout the year. And so it's amazing to have the data and it is just, you know, we kind of know it's the right thing to do. So it's been really exciting to be a part of the project in this way.

God, it's like, it's so heartwarming. Maybe over here we're just like so desperate for more good news and stories like this because we hear so much about destruction. And thank you for really breaking that down because I think most of us us, we are very aware of things like rainforest destruction. But when I was doing research on this, when you, when you mentioned the tropical dry forests, this is actually one of the most endangered ecosystems on the planet. And we're not talking about this. We don't see it. We don't know about it. All of us want to serve in some way or another. But again, when we pull back a little bit, when you use that word resilience, There's so many fascinating studies right now showing our water quality, how our water is structured, where our water comes from, could actually be one of the greatest sources of our healing for building resilience back into our bodies. And mentioning disease and bacteria and things like that, we have to remember that like 70%, 80% of the drugs, the pharmaceutical drugs that we see out there, actually come from compounds that are found found within nature. So we need to conserve and preserve that. And I'm curious for you, because this is obviously having the studies behind this is something that can go out to so many different parts of the world. Is it within Panama that you're working with people specifically? Was it somewhere in another country that you're able to partner to bring these resources for the healing? How did it come to be? Yeah.

So I have an amazing business partner. His name's Obani Carson, and, um, he and I are both from the Midwest. He's from Nebraska. I'm from Iowa. So we both come from this world of agriculture and deeply in with the food systems. And so we both have a very deep shared passion for planet Earth, for our food systems, for health of the land and health of the people. And he and I ultimately found these projects to work on together, and he's been just an extraordinary ally in the creation of all of this and has been the primary financial supporter in all of these initiatives so that we can really create a community that is nature-based, that's really focused on the restoration of the land that we occupy, but also the, the land in our entire region. I mean, we're really focused on, um, ultimately helping to execute this 80-kilometer biological corridor that bridges two different nature reserves that our development happens to sit within. And so everything that we're doing and we're forming as a community here is all around how do we ultimately leverage the real estate project that we're doing for even larger scale ecological restoration in our area. And we believe we will see immense benefit from this as well. But our focus is primarily here in Panama and through Omani and my networks, we've brought down the different resources in order to implement some of these projects. Panama also, though, has so many incredible research institutions. The Smithsonian Tropical Research Institution is here. They've been doing all kinds of studies in these ecosystems for how to most effectively restore the land. And our partner in the reforestation initiatives is an NGO called ProEcosuero. They are, they're an award-winning, you know, the UN just, just gave them an award for education on going in to teach school kids in schools about ecological restoration in our area. And they've been an incredible partner. And so I would say that how it's really gone for me is that I moved here. I love the land, I love the community, and all of these decisions of kind of how to do all of this has been really inspired from just a love of our home, wanting to care for it. And what's been so amazing is the right tools, the right resources have all sort of shown up right on time. We've been able to really leverage the research that the Smithsonian has done. Yale has been down here and leverage all of that for how do we restore landscapes. And this is what's cool. And I think really what is my aspiration is how do we sort of reframe ourselves as keystone species again? Like, you know, when you would introduce a wolf into Yellowstone, all sorts of life comes back to that land that you can't really even explain. But we as humans have this capacity to step into that again of saying, I can actually design and execute, implement a system that is designed to bring more life back to the land because of my presence and not diminish the life because I'm living in an extractive way. And I think this is ultimately the opportunity for all of us to really consider. And it starts with just simple curiosities. Like you said, these ecosystems that are so fragile, I would say, just invite people to even look up. Like, what ecosystem do you even live in? Like, what's the name of it? What's the nature of it? You know, what are the trees that, you know, that surround you? And to just get curious about the landscape and the system that you're living inside of, this is an amazing place to just begin. And so I've just felt really lucky. It's all felt quite, yeah, just quite fortunate. Everything is kind of very coherent and that the right people have really shown up on time to be able to really do all of this, including my business partner. And yeah, we're having so much fun trying to understand all of this and ultimately see what's repeatable, but I think the, in other places, but I think ultimately the answers are quite actually local. So even though there's maybe framework of questions of how to do this, the answers that emerge ultimately are quite locally based, which is a very fun part of doing regenerative real estate. You know, it's not really scalable, but there are different repeatable systems and questions that can be asked in order to arrive at some of the best solutions. So it's been fun to uncover some of this.

It's beautiful and it's crazy to think of how innovative it is in our modern-day world. But for you to step in and truly see the land as, you know, something that actually has living value for everyone involved, for the land and for the people, as opposed to, I think traditionally was just looked at as utility. It's wild that that's a game-changing concept, right? And I think another way that you are such a pioneer is that, um, I was reading that you're generating and selling biodiversity credits.

Yeah.

Is that true? What are those and what does putting a financial value on biodiversity, how does that change everything?

Yeah, great question. We, so I come from the world of finance. I was in private equity and investment banking before this. And it's been really amazing for me to apply some of that experience in the financial world to understanding how can we align our financial systems with more life. Because right now, all of our, almost all of our financial systems are entirely extractive from life. And so even Bitcoin, pick on cryptocurrency, like it's run on and utilizing electricity that, you know, in power generation that we're, you know, running all of these servers and to generate these coins. And then it's based off of a very finite amount of currency that exists. And this is what's ultimately driving its value. If we could actually align our financial systems with something that has the capacity to grow infinitely, like life, this to me seems like a very abundant system. And so I've been in a really deep inquiry. I talked just before, mentioned this 80-kilometer corridor that our project happens to sit within. And this corridor is largely spanning across two different nature reserves that is filled with all kinds of largely pasture land. This entire area was converted into cattle pasture land in two different phases. One, with the Spanish first arrived here, and then second, when the US arrived to finish the Panama Canal, a lot of this, these forests came down to be converted into cattle land. And so on one hand, it's really fun because it's sort of like the Montana of Panama. We live in like cowboy land and it's wild and the culture is really fun and there's all sorts of like folklore here and tradition that, that goes deeply into the Panamanian roots, which is really fun to be a part of. And also I can really feel and sense the land having this deep desire to return. And in partnering with ProEco Azuero, who really has down how to do that from an ecological perspective, what's the responsible way, how do you kind of fast-track a rainforest returning through kind of these sophisticated plantation methodologies, kind of designing after a wild rainforest, which they really have just an incredible research, they have enormous amount of research on, but also have the execution experience on how to do this. I've become quite obsessed with how do you finance this and how do you get this done, you know, sort of living in today's world. And so that inquiry took me down this path of carbon credits, which, you know, that, that's been a challenging industry to understand. I, I won't go into all of it, but that ultimately hasn't really measured what I consider to be the most important thing, which is life. And so we asked ourselves as regenerative real estate developers, one of our missions is that we create more life on the land as we develop. And so in the effort to actually bring integrity to that and to measure it, we went down this path of like, what's the most effective and sort of high integrity way to measure more life. And that brought us to this methodology that was generated out of the UK called the Wallacea Trust methodology that is actually measuring for biodiversity. And while we are doing this because we want to have integrity around what we're developing and ensuring that we actually are adding more life to the land as we develop, we also will have the opportunity to sell, basically you kind of securitize the improvement of life, uh, through the form of a biodiversity credit, and we'll be able to sell sell those credits to people who are interested in purchasing kind of offset credits for their impact environmentally. And so I think this is cool. It's amazing. It's innovative. I'm really happy that it's a step in the right direction. I still think that there's an enormous amount of opportunity to do this anyways. So as opposed to it being an offset to, you know, a negative environmental impact that we just all decide as people who are producing in the world or who are generating in the world, that we want to include the goal of regenerating more life in whatever we're producing. And it doesn't have to be, you know, it could be that you're impacting land in one area, but that you're regenerating even more land in another area. So we can think about this at a macro level, but ultimately, you know, this was sort of the journey to discover biodiversity credits. We're looking at other nature-based methodologies to really measure more life. Like I said, metabolomics is really interesting. Because ultimately metabolism is a function of things that are living. And so because this is a fairly actually easy thing to measure given the technology that's available today, it's also a— I think it's an exciting next step for us because it also measures things really functionally as opposed to symbolically. Even in this biodiversity testing that we're doing, it's sort of like if you see more monkeys in a certain period, you've improved the biodiversity on the land, which is amazing. And it has. Has roots in being true, but we have the capacity today to really measure this at the scientific level, at the microbial level. And so I'm excited to have these markets evolve even further to be scalable, to be reproducible, to allow small landowners to participate in the regeneration of their land. And this to me is, you know, will be kind of the moment of success for these industries is when everybody who is stewarding any amount of land can really participate in financially in the regeneration of that land. And I think we have a little ways to go before we get there, but I'm excited to be a part of, you know, the creation of those markets so that everyone can really financially benefit as well as we're going through this regeneration period as a species.

I think you're brilliant. Gosh, describing that just gave me goosebumps. And I think that what's so innovative about it is that the entryway is many, whether it's the regenerative aspect, the biodiversity, the soil, the preserving of land, the stewardship, or the primal life that's there, right? Which is so key. So many people, while they may be overwhelmed with our environmental and topics of land and soil and water, you can pull at their heartstrings with diversity of wildlife. So you mentioned monkeys. I know that this is specific, on your land there is an endangered spider monkey. By redesigning community around wildlife rather than taking it down, what does it require? How do you see shifts like that? I'm sure you're forecasting some positive change around this based on what you're seeing.

Yeah, absolutely. So we have down where we live the— this endangered species of monkeys, it's called the asuero spider monkey, and it's on the 100 most endangered primates that exist globally. And so, you know, we take quite seriously the impact that we have to the land because it's— there's a significant impact on this very endangered species of monkeys. And given that we're living in the most endangered ecosystem on the planet, there are many endangered species, but this is a really nice character for us to, uh, you know, to promote. And, um, you know, these spider monkeys are so cute. The way that they move through the tree canopy is one of the most inspiring things. They move so much in flow and with so much grace, and they're just jumping around as though every branch is just reaching out to support them. And it's just like, wow, they move so easily through the world. And so it's been an amazing character to really base a lot of our regenerative initiatives off of. And yes, these species in particular, but many species ultimately have a need for a large roaming area. And so this is why a connected corridor is really important because even though these forests that are fragmented are helpful, any forest is really helpful, what most species need is a contiguous roaming tree canopy or landmass. And so one of kind of the unfortunate outcomes of a lot of land stewardship has been is that we've actually put up more fences in the land and this doesn't allow for a lot of the ground animals to trans— you know, to move throughout the land really freely. And so it's actually been damaging to a lot of the species. And I think that when we can think about these biological corridors or these connectivity corridors, both at the ground level and at the tree canopy level, species are able to reproduce and regenerate at much faster rates. And then it also has a really positive a positive effect because these same species are ultimately what is, you know, carrying a lot of the tree seeds. They're germinating them as they digest them, and those seeds come out through their waste. That's actually the natural way to regenerate forest landscapes as well. And so as we, you know, kind of see how this living system all works together, one is really supporting the other. And so in our entire region, the last count was that there were about 140 individuals of these spider monkeys left. We have a goal that this is doubling in population over the next 10 years. And ultimately what will be required of that is a much larger connected forest canopy in order to really support that increase in population. But we have seen, you know, spider baby spider monkeys on the backs of their mothers and canopy and, you know, whatever else, like the data is saying, there's nothing that's more powerful than this. Like to see a baby spider monkey on its mom's back, or they sort of move from their stomachs when they're newborns onto their backs as they get older. And just to witness this and to see life coming back is like the most hopeful thing that, you know, is possible. And so, uh, it's been such a rewarding experience for, to see these species regenerate. And, you know, there are many more as well. We uncovered, we were, uh, cleaning up some of the grasses around some of our baby trees and we found a little baby margay den. So baby margay is this like really small little leopard-looking cat. And this baby margay had like bright blue eyes, and of course it was terrified. And we were like, "You're good. We're good. Everybody's good." But the interactions that you get to have with wildlife are extraordinary. So to see all of this life come back is so hopeful. And whatever the data is saying, I can say for sure that it also just feels good to be a part of life that is restoring. You feel that same energy happening inside of you when you're a part of it. And so I don't know if there'll be a test to measure this exactly, but it is something to be felt and experienced, which is pretty powerful.

I think the storytelling around that alone is brilliant. I have tears in my eyes, and I really love that you hovered on that for a little bit because right now there's no shortage of stories of, I'll just say it, Americans taking off to live in different parts of the world to take advantage of these real estate opportunities in nature without realizing the destruction that has to happen before they get there. One of my best friends, she lives in Nasar. Her name is Dana Shalit. Do you know Dana?

I don't know her.

Have you met her before?

No?

She's connected with a bunch of industries that are surrounding it. You're probably going to meet her soon. But she just shared with me, with all of the real estate developments that are happening in Nasar right now, she can hear the howler monkeys screaming. And yeah, like their homes are just being taken away and, you know, these mansions are being put up and it's like, we just have to consider where we're moving and who we're partnering with. And I think hearing about what you're doing is just, it's so powerful for that aspect in and of itself. And can I ask you, just, you know, being completely naive in this space, I can imagine, how does it feel for someone, for people, for communities from the Western world going and taking up space in places like Panama. You obviously are a unicorn because you're building in deep infrastructure with locals and partnering with them and securing their land and stuff like that. What is the energy around that and what can people expect?

Yeah, I, I think you hit on it with the Nosara example. You know, they're, um, every place is different, including the people, right? So, um, I can say for my own direct experience, which I think is distinct from some of what's happened in some of these other regions where largely Americans have gone down, Asara, Santa Teresa, you know, parts of Mexico. Where, you know, we're in Vinao, we actually live inside of, it's about a 2-kilometer half-moon bay and this entire bay and all of the land around it was owned by really two different landowners. One was a single farmer. So there was a single rancho on this entire bay. As of about 15 years ago, 15, 20 years ago. And the other landowner is actually still the family of one of my partners. We actually purchased the land from him and he still is here. He has a hotel here. He's Panamanian, has an incredible presence all throughout Panama. He's one of the largest hotel developers in the region. And so for us, we as a community didn't exactly displace another local community. We didn't drive out anybody. We really, you know, the people who came in to buy the land around this They bought it from a single person and that rancho is still on the bay and it still exists. But ultimately, you know, all of the development that has gone on here has been new and it hasn't necessarily driven out other locals. That's not to say that we haven't had an impact on our region. We have, you know, and I think in general what we're attempting to do, continuing to attempt to do, is to find ways to include our neighboring communities so that they all also get to benefit positively into the growth of this region. And that also, that includes, you know, finding economic opportunities for them to participate. But then it also includes really understanding how do we participate positively into the entire ecosystem that's here. Because, you know, when we cut down trees for real estate development, it affects the rancher who is our neighbor because it's going to affect his water table. It's going to affect his capacity for cattle graze. And so, you know, just to have a lot of awareness around that, I think is really critical. And we've been fortunate in that we didn't have this dynamic of driving out anybody who was already here in this particular location. So we've felt quite welcomed, honestly. It's been a really like beautiful, you know, opportunity for everybody to really integrate together and to do something cool together. And we're We're just very aware that all of the decisions that we have impact our neighbors, impact the country of Panama. You know, this is a, this is, um, as a country, a fairly small place. And so when we bring a lot of people here, there's a massive impact to that. But so far, I would say that as long as we're keeping that awareness at the forefront, we are thinking about ourselves as positive contributors, that the more life extends not just to the animals, the land itself, the soil, to the humans who occupy that land, but also to our neighbors, that we get to— it at least guides us in our decision-making of how we think through what we do down here. And so far it's been really positive. I would say, you know, it's also like kind of what nature does. Like the first thing a new seed would do if it kind of lands in a new spot is it would connect itself to to its surroundings. It would root down and really get a sense for what's around it before it makes any decisions, before to understand what resources are available to it and how it can participate into resourcing that land. And so I think that, you know, the examples of how to do this are existing in nature all around us. And, um, we're, we're really trying to let that guide us in terms of how we operate here.

I think it's beautiful, and I really do hope that what you're, you're building with becomes a model for people who are wanting to duplicate this around the world. I think it's very special. And a word that keeps coming up today, let's just hover on this for a second because I think there's a lot of greenwashing that's happening around the word regenerative. And I think that a lot of people are looking at this through different entry points, but can we think about this, like, what's the actual difference between nature and the regenerative aspect there versus is the development behind it to actually restore? What should listeners be looking for to really trust the word regenerative?

Great. I'm so happy you brought this up because yes, it's been frustrating for me. Even regenerative agriculture, I don't even know what it means necessarily anymore. And I think in the attempt to understand what are we declaring about ourselves, who are If we're going to call ourselves regenerative real estate development, what does that mean? And for me, it means that we are creating a system of development where life increases over time. And so that's why our kind of our slogan at Canopy is more life. And what's nice about, I think, that first initiative of wanting to declare that we're regenerative is that we also We also really wanted to bring with it integrity, and that was sort of what sent us down this entire initiative of biodiversity credits. How do you measure this? And so even just that invitation of making that declaration and really wanting to have integrity behind it has been quite defining for us because it really set us down on this incredible journey. And so I would say that for me, in order for something to be regenerative, It first, it participates in a system that is living and it understands that it is taking from that system, but it's also giving back to that system. And that the end goal of those cycles need to be an outcome of more life for not just for itself, for all of the systems around it. And so that to me was kind of the framework of regeneration that I like to hold as our guidepost.

Oh gosh, I love that. What a concept integrity around that, right? So building more life back into these living ecosystems is something that we need to investigate. So do that. Again, like, the more that we question these, the more that there needs to be, I guess, eventually an official legal term for whoever puts that stamp of approval on it outside of something that's just buzzworthy or trendy. Caroline, for the listener, when we think about the biggest mistake that people have between how they think about their relationship to the natural world versus what actually is, can you just give kind of like, you know, what's your dream for people to really understand the power of that connection? What would you say to them to really help them understand and want to be part of it?

I would say that as much as we, as humans, I think there's been this way in which, you know, even the encyclopedia, I think, defines nature as life forms like outside of humans, like anything that's not human, you know, that that has something like this as a definition. And so like we've entered into an era of language, of action, of systems that we participate in that have separated us from nature, like, as we kind of started this entire conversation with. And as soon as we realize that we are absolutely a part of the natural world, that we contribute to it, that it contributes to us, that this feeling of collaboration and of harmony, of coherence. It feels amazing that, you know, it's, it's like as soon as you reestablish your position, your right relationship into the natural world as a part of it, not separate from it, not designing around it, not seeing it as like a feature over there, but that it's actually like the core infrastructure of our lives, that this allows us to feel a sense of awe, of beauty, of humility. And I think for most people, a deep sense of responsibility because we just have this inherent understanding that the health of it as a system is directly tied to our own health and wellness. And so I think that the biggest thing is that it's fun and it's beautiful and it feels good. And, you know, as much as there is so much kind of fear driven, you know, initiatives in the world. I think the biggest reason to step back into it are all really based in love and really based in, you know, experiencing what feels good again and really being in touch with that. So that's my hope is that it's sort of my, yeah, what I would love to see for the world is that people really get to experience how good it feels, how right it feels, how correct it feels. And, um, yeah, this would be an amazing moment for, for more people to arrive.

Amen, sister. Gosh, I just think that every word that you described, if we go back to literally the roots of how we're meant to live in nature, I think that the future of our health and happiness, the trajectory is going to change completely from the course that it's on right now. We've got an incredible community, this Rooted community. Can you share with us You know, if people wanna get involved, let's say for someone who can't get to Panama, who might not be able to have direct access to Canopy Banau, what are 3 meaningful things that they can do to support you, your mission today?

Yeah, great. So 3 things. Let's see. I would say the first thing is that just like when we connect ourselves to natural systems, you know, when we really connect ourselves to each other who are really you know, driven by the same mission in the world, I think that that coherence and that power of that connection is amplified. And so I think one of the things that people could do quite simply is just to pursue that curiosity of what is my own ecosystem? Where am I living? What does the natural world look like that is sort of native to this land that I'm occupying? And to just begin to expand the awareness of ourselves, our place in the world, and to make that as an initiative that we can do together. That would be incredibly supportive to me because I think expanding that awareness would make it more normal and yeah, and it would just feel supportive, which is an amazing thing. The second thing would be, you know, we, as I mentioned before, we have an incredible NGO that we partner with called Proyecto Azuero. They're doing some of the most important work around execution for really rebuilding these— we call ourselves Canopy Development Company because we actually are rebuilding the canopy of trees. And so this is part of the name, but really it's Croco Azuero who is doing this and they're an NGO. I sent you their link, but any support that people can give them, even if it's just sharing their stories or their research or their, you know, just awareness of these guys, these guys are extraordinary, are doing such important work in the world. And yeah, I would say that the third thing is just to invite— so I invite everybody to go out and find joy in nature. And as soon as they're able to do that and to find their favorite spot, to invite somebody else. Because I think the more that we can take small steps in the world to regenerate ourselves, to fall in love with the natural world again, fall in love with our place in it, this is actually how nature is working. It's working in small ways, step by step, seed by seed spreading. And I think that the more we can bring people back to this, the more we'll really move down this next century of regeneration and a lot more quickly and with a lot more peace and a lot more allyship together. So those would be pretty small things that are an opportunity.

Beautiful. And what's a website that people can go check out right away? We'll link everything up below.

Yeah. So canopyvanow.com is our primary website and then We have a sister development called Coco Bolo. That website is cocobolovanau.com. And then ProEco Azuero is proecoesuero.org. And so those would be the places. We also have a really fun Instagram account. We've got an amazing film crew down here, Mango Fish Studios, who captures the story of what's happening down here. So if anybody wants to see a lot of stories of monkeys having babies and fruit growing and agriculture done in a really regenerative and local way they can follow Canopy Even Now and see the incredible work being done by our teams and by the artist teams capturing it. So those are some fun ways to stay engaged.

So beautiful. I think we all need some more good news in our lives. So monitor your feed with positive energy like that. And for those of you who do need the data, I mean, it's all there for you. Spending 100 to 120 minutes outside in nature, in natural environments. Environments has proven benefits in the quality of our sleep, our energy, our mood, and even our metabolic functions. Okay, so I can't say this enough on this episode: when we remember our connection to nature and submerge ourselves in her, we remember how to heal. It's something— it's resilience that turns on with our body. So, Caroline, I'm so grateful to have met you and learn about everything that you're doing. I am your biggest cheerleader. I know that you've got so many from this episode. I can't wait to share it all. To close things off, can you tell us your favorite ancient or indigenous practice that you're experiencing?

Yes. So I have been, I've been really, so I have all these trees around me and I was realizing though that I wasn't quite slowing down to really like to really enjoy them. And so every day I'm usually on canopy hiking at some point with my golden retriever, Cosmo. You probably heard him barking earlier, and he loves to and really needs to get some exercise. And so the thing that I'm doing every day, and it's so cute because Cosmo joins me, is I just actually put both hands on a tree and I exchange energy with that tree. I witness the tree, and I also ask that the tree witnesses myself. And what's so cute is Cosmo almost always comes comes up next to me and puts his paws on the tree right next to me. And so I'm quite sure it's ancient. I'm not clear that it's ancient, but I am for sure this has happened. And if it didn't happen in the past, it's going to become the future. But this for me has been just a very simple daily practice to witness and to ask to also be witnessed and to allow yourself to be witnessed by nature, I think is such a powerful tool to, to do and so easy to do at the end of the day.

So beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Uh, until next time when I see you in person.

All right, I can't wait. Thank you so much, Mona Sharma.