Why We Feel More Connected but More Alone with Tony Cho

The US Surgeon General declared loneliness being as toxic as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. You had a beautiful reframe saying that loneliness isn't a personal failure, it's a design flaw.

Theoretically, we're more connected than ever because of social media and technology, yet people are reporting the highest levels of loneliness, disconnection, suicide are at alarming rates. And so why is that? It's because we've designed our societies to optimize for automobiles, for disconnection, for gated communities, for nuclear families. I really believe that authentic, connected community is the antidote to loneliness.

Tony Cho, welcome to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you, it's so good to be here, Mona Sharma Sharma Sharma. What a pleasure.

What a pleasure. It's so funny, you think that you know your people, and yet still you came across my path, and I just had to do a deep dive to see who that you who you are and fuck, how do we not know each other?

Super surprising. We have so many people in common too, which is awesome. Not surprising at all.

Not surprising. Yeah. So I'm excited to talk to you about all of those things today. So, you know, a bit of a backstory with the podcast. I really wanted to merge ancient wisdom with modern day medicine and my own healing journey. I had 2 heart surgeries that took me back to living on an ashram, which you know about. So for our listeners, it's really about supporting everyone in becoming more rooted, rooted in themselves, who they are, their life, their happiness, and what I think is this inner knowing that we all have to heal ourselves. So to kick things off, can you share 2 or 3 things that you practice every day that help you feel more rooted in who you are?

Absolutely. So I grew up on an ashram, so I was force-fed spirituality. Which you have— we have some, some common threads there. But one of the things that has been a through line in my life is meditation. And the first thing I do every morning when I wake up is meditate before I look at my phone, before I do exercise, before I do anything. I just want to get grounded. I want to get connected. I want to feel gratitude. I want to feel the newness of the day and the opportunity. So meditation is is probably number one, is always number one. And then number two, particularly, actually I live in Miami Beach and I live at my retreat center. I split my time between the two and they're both in nature, even though in Miami Beach, I'm in a city, but I'm on the ocean and I'm very connected to the ocean frequency and the water energy and the sunrise and the sunset. So for me, that's, Those two, those two habits and those two practices are kind of fundamental to getting my day off to the right start. Meditation and walking in nature.

So I hope this is landing, guys. Every practitioner that I have sitting in that seat, they mention modalities that are free and they love hovering on this because I think that we're overcomplicating what it means to actually feel my best every day. Nature, meditation, being outside, connection with others. So I think that that's a beautiful practice. On the flip side, being on the journey that you're on, opening the centers that you've opened, do you catch yourself feeling uprooted or dysregulated?

Of course, absolutely. I'm human. And, you know, my, my, my late wife Ximena, who we'll, we'll talk about because she's, uh, such a beautiful goddess and inspiration in my life, um, but she always used to, you know, advise me to simplify and, you know, lighten the load and You know, not try to do too many things at once because that, you know, that dysregulates us and it puts us out of balance. And at the end of the day, I think what we're all striving for is that rootedness, that balance, and how do we get centered. And that's really the work that I do in real estate and in placemaking is really how do you connect with yourself and how do you connect with the place where you are in the world.

It's funny, this is the first time that I'll really be able to go deep with someone on this. Unfortunately, a lot of the people that I work with, when they do get off-road, they identify with that and they think that they failed, that they've fallen off the wagon. It defines them. But for me, and I think the translation that I've had with the clients I work with, true health and optimization and feeling their best, it's almost become a spiritual journey, how it was for myself, because it wasn't beating yourself up. It's kind of like a feeling of just needing to go back to source energy. Which is what I try to teach a lot of people. So we'll dive into those similarities today. Let's start off with some rapid-fire questions. Whatever comes to your mind. You always surprise me with these.

Let me take a sip of the chlorophyll to get prepared.

All right. So finish this sentence. A healthy city should feel like—

Should feel like joy.

What a concept. The most overlooked factor in human health today.

Presence.

One design choice that instantly improves well-being.

Immersion in nature.

Third places in one sentence, why do they matter?

Community.

A city that you've experienced that truly felt alive.

Medellín, Colombia.

Hot take: what is modern urban development getting completely wrong?

Modern urban development is getting a lot of things wrong, you know, and I often talk about the difference between smart cities and wise Cities, because I think one of the main design flaws of our modern era is trying to let technology supplant our ancient wisdom and our inner knowing of who we are. And this is the whole biohacking movement, or the whole, you know, death as a disease movement. And for me, it's about going back to the basics and remembering who we are in that ancient technology, that ancient wisdom, that you and I are very familiar with, but many people forget. And you know when you've had a good night's sleep, you don't need your Oura Ring to tell you. And I'm not advocating for not using technology. I'm a big fan when leveraged properly and in the right context, not when it's controlling us or making us a nervous wreck or giving us more anxiety. But how is it actually calming down our nervous system? How is it grounding us? How is it making us feel more connected? And so cities have noise pollution, air pollution, water pollution, the food is poison, the soil is poison. So when you look at how we've designed our society, we've designed our society to harm people. And it's not intentional, it's actually by default because what are we optimizing for? We're optimizing for profit, we're optimizing for efficiency, but we're not optimizing for health and human connection. And in an era where we're theoretically more connected than ever through social media and technology and AI and all these things, people are reporting the highest levels of dissatisfaction, of loneliness, the highest levels of suicide ever reported in human history.

Why?

Why? Because most people are going to AI for their community or for their therapist or for their, mentorship. You know, that's the number one use of AI, is therapy. Yeah. So if your therapist is your phone, then where is the human connection?

And now even blood labs, right, to uncover the perfect healing protocol that comes with a laundry list of things without even recognizing who you are. I think a lot of people listening will understand everything that you're saying cognitively. I think often, you know, people can understand when I say the power of Source energy or plugging in or tuning into who you are and your frequency. There's an understanding, but a lot of people haven't felt that. So here you are, myself included. We had this— and it's funny, I like your choice of words— I don't know if it was divine guidance that took me to the ashram or if it was forced spirituality in some points because I was there for so many years. I'm going to say it's I have like a beautiful relationship of both. But growing up, we had this blueprint installed where we understood the power of connection and nature and living in community and being outside. When we can strip away materialism and success and, um, success markers and wealth and just be. And I find that when I am in need of my greatest healing, It's not the biohacking that brings that. It's not the hardcore protocol. It's remembering the feeling of when I go back to the ashram and that feeling of source energy. So please share a little bit about your upbringing and how that's shaped you and how that's sort of like moved this into being able to translate it so that people can actually have more of a tangible experience instead of the cognitive mind that I'm speaking to.

So I was born in 1978 in Central Florida in a small, very remote town called Sebastian with which now has 10,000 people. Back then it probably had 3,000. And the sign when you enter Sebastian is 10,000 friendly people and 6 old grouches. So it's one of these Central Florida, you know, it was the citrus state. So for a long time before we had whitefly and a lot of die-off of the citrus, but it's also known for the NASA space program. And it's also known as the Treasure Coast because of all these Spanish Armada ships that crashed in the 1500s. On our shore because of hurricanes. So we're nestled between the Space Coast and the Treasure Coast. And my grandmother, Mājāya Satī Bhāgavatī, also known as Joyce Green from Brooklyn, the Holy Land, as she called it, was married to my grandfather, a Guinean Italian from Brooklyn. And they had 3 children, my 2 aunts and my dad. And when my grandmother was in her 30s, early 30s, she kind of went through a midlife crisis. And started doing Jack Lalanne and yoga, basically to lose weight. She was 300 pounds, she was overweight, and she was going through this crisis. And as she reported in her stories and in her biography, that she started getting these visions of Neem Karoli Baba, who was Steve Jobs and Ram Dass's guru, and then all these different saints, Indian saints and sages. This was a girl, a Jewish girl from Coney Island who had no education, didn't finish high school, and is starting to have these downloads and these connections and these visions of Jesus Christ and Neem Karoli Baba. And her vision was validated by the Jesuits, and then Ram Dass discovered her. And then she had a fiery relationship with Ram Dass, which you can read in his book The Brooklyn Detour, and his most recent book Being Ram Dass, a whole chapter dedicated to my grandmother. Um, and she— that's how she kind of you know, had her awakening in the '70s. And my grandfather was not happy about that, of course, you know, as a traditional Catholic family with 3 kids in their teenage years and all these hippies with blankets coming for darshan and satsang and all of these things in her home in Brooklyn freaked him out, understandably, you know. What do you expect? And so it got pretty intense between them, and ultimately she decided to leave. And she took all of her disciples and they packed up and she left to Florida. And then they went to— in search of their utopia, their ashram, their community. And she found this land that had a 7-limbed tree, which was an oak tree, and that was kind of the anchor point of the reason for being there. And that was in 1976, 50 years ago, and My grandmother— my mother and my dad were too young when I was— when my mom got pregnant, they weren't married, and they weren't in a position to take care of me. They were in New York, and so my grandmother naturally said, "I'll raise him on the commune. You know, we've got the whole community. This is my first grandson, and I want to raise him." So she did just that. And so I was born on the ashram. My grandmother adopted me at birth. When I was 2, she remarried a Korean martial arts master, hence the last name Cho, which is actually Japanese because the Japanese occupied Korea in the '50s. And Master Cho is a world-recognized martial arts master, Taekwondo master. And so then it was kind of like having two gurus essentially as your parents. And then they adopted four children from members of the community that became my adopted brothers and sisters, which I didn't know about until I was 10. At which point my sister was taken into custody by her birth parents and in a movie theater in a very dramatic turn of events because her adoption wasn't legal. And that's how we found out that we were adopted.

Wow.

So that was an intense moment.

Very.

Yeah.

How do you feel like this all led to your sense of purpose?

You know, so I mean, it was like, it was living in a fairy tale, especially, especially as at my younger years growing up on the ashram, because we're in nature, we're on this beautiful river connected to the most biodiverse lagoon system in North America, and we did everything together as a community. There was a school on the property, and so birthdays and anniversaries and of course all the Hindu holidays, Durga Puja and celebrations, Everything was done together as a tribe. So we were living back in a tribal environment, which I think is the most natural state for humans. Not these nuclear isolated families that sometimes have single moms, single dads, or even a unit of two parents and two and a half kids with a white picket fence and the car in the garage and the suburbs, which to me, everybody talks about the American dream. I call it the American nightmare, but we'll talk about that later. But my life was not that. Growing up. And, you know, also the aspect of death and celebrating death and reincarnation and how death is viewed in Hinduism, for example. You know, anytime somebody was passing on, the entire community would gather around and chant the Hanuman Chalisa or kirtan or other types of beautiful songs to help that soul transition through that process, which is a very sacred process in Hinduism and with community. And then I look at America and how we put all of our elderly in old age homes to die alone. And I say to myself, this doesn't make any sense. Who designed this concept? This is really ass backwards, right? And so there's a lot of elements of growing up on the ashram that was just much more human to me than what I've seen in modern society, particularly in the West. And so naturally, that, that type of experience of being raised in essentially glorified homeschooling with your aunts and your uncles being your teachers, essentially eating in, in a cafeteria or, you know, a community kitchen every single night, you know, creates certain bonds that is very unique and different to what, you know, we see in our modern world. And, you know, you talk about, you know, this show is rooted in wellness. Well, being rooted in community is very grounding because it's something that's very stabilizing. And many people, they move around, they move schools, they move neighborhoods, they move communities, and it's very difficult to become rooted or grounded in a place if you're moving around so much and you're not necessarily very grounded or connected to yourself or your, your own sense of place and purpose within yourself. So the ashram really helped me understand the value of community, and it also showed me the value of creating and evolving the concept that fit my values and belief system, because I no longer live in the ashram and I no longer follow that tradition, although I honor and embrace it and respect it. And I feel many people talk about my grandmother's teachings, which were very similar to Neem Karoli Baba's teaching, which was love, feed, and serve everyone. And I feel that I'm living my life as an embodiment of that teaching, but I don't necessarily practice Hinduism in the same way, although when I meditate, I often lean on Ganesh as the remover of obstacles, and there's things that are culturally very— I'm very connected. My spiritual name is Vajra Hanuman, which is the lightning bolt or the clear light of Hanuman, the monkey god of service representing humility, and so many of those things now that That's mythology, right? And so people sometimes get dogmatic about mythology, but I look at it as very sacred teachings that we can learn from. And when you worship something, whether it's a mythical monkey god or whatever it is, or a tree that you worship, you empower that to have sacredness. And so you can worship this glass of chlorophyll and make it heal everything in your body. The same way you can worship an imaginary monkey or elephant, as long as it doesn't become, in my opinion, dogmatic.

I agree.

That's, to me, that's the evolution of where I see, and in a way that we've kind of achieved, we're kind of getting to this post-capitalistic, post-religious, hopefully post-political environment. That's when we truly transcend as a civilization, as humanity, is when we can look— it's not that we tolerate or we embrace other traditions, is that we move beyond that and getting back to being human.

You're a great storyteller. I feel like I could sit back with a cup of coffee and just listen to you. Did you ever find your sister again? I jumped ahead. I can't stop thinking about her though.

Yes, I ended up— we ended up reconnecting with my sister after being disconnected for many years, and it was a very traumatic experience for all of us. And she has turned into a wonderful, beautiful person that got married. She lives actually in Switzerland with her husband and her family. So it's— yeah, yeah, she's, uh, she's turned out really well, all things considered, you know, of what we've been through. And many of us go through a lot of trauma, and it's what you do with that experience that makes you who you are.

Ultimately trusting that it guided you, right? I'm smiling so much, my cheeks are already hurting just at the similarities on our story. I went through a period, as I was mentioning, you know, was it divine guidance? Was it, you know, a little culty? Was I being brainwashed growing up? And I was back leading a retreat at the Shivananda Ashram on the Bahamas. And one of the swamis afterwards said that I was carrying on the torch of Swami Sivananda. And I'd never heard this before, but Swami Sivananda was a medical doctor, right? Trained medical doctor in India that saw in Mona Sharma another way to heal the body. And so he wanted to bring ancient wisdom and the path of yoga to the Western world. And that ultimately was the mission. And then flash forward, I think about the intention of my podcast and oh my gosh, here we are. It's the exact same thing. Now, the reason why I want to hover on that is a lot of people, we hear stories about people who've had a journey with like a deeply spiritual root often go through a phase where they want to rebel or work against it. And then here you and I are who have actually gone back and kind of really gotten into it. I find myself leaning into it. Do you find that you're doing the same?

Yes. And I think it's, you know, you can't go around the fire to really, to deal with any challenges or trauma that you have. You have to go right through it. And I've really come back to where I grew up and my indigenous land, and with our retreat center that I co-founded with my late wife Ximena almost 11 years ago, or 11 years ago, it's been an evolution and also a real challenge in evolving this concept of intentional community in a modern context that's really rooted in nature, as kind of the nature is the ceremony, and kind of our slogan is Nature is medicine, food is medicine, community is medicine, and those are our three pillars, which is very similar to regenerative placemaking, the framework that I'm working with in Future of Cities and within communities and cities worldwide, where you can connect nature, community, and culture as this symbiotic guild or relationship that creates rootedness, connection to place, understanding, and where regeneration is possible. But to get to regeneration, you have to become— first of all, you have to go from extraction to sustainability, which is just status quo, to resilience, and then ultimately to regeneration. And it's a process. And so I feel like, as Joseph Campbell always talks about the hero's journey, I feel like coming back home, which I, I mean, I wanted to run away from the ashram And I ended up becoming a nightclub promoter in Argentina, Miami, New York, and completely rebelled against my grandmother and the ashram because I didn't want to exist under her shadow and her huge, huge shoes to fill. And, you know, like her, I'm a leader, and I wanted to build a community of leaders, and I don't want followers. Yeah, it's a different kind of you know, evolution of the concept. And Thich Nhat Hanh has famously said now that the community is the guru, right? It's that community intelligence. And so one of the principles that I really subscribe to is this concept of co-design, co-create, and co-evolution. And what that means is that this is not being dictated by an autocrat or a leader or a guru. That these communities are being co-created with a connection to nature and with a connection to that place and the culture of that place.

In English.

And so I think most people are just passing through places and not connecting with places because they themselves are disconnected to their own self. And then how can you connect with where your feet are on the ground if you don't have a sense of who you are and what your purpose So true.

I have a stint like yours. I went into fashion and makeup and partied in New York quite often until I got really sick. I took it back to the ashram. And I'm thinking to all of the times I've said in this podcast, I wish everyone could experience ashram life because, you know, as rustic as it might be, it's the ultimate wellness experience because it taps into all of those pillars. I think because of my journey, I went down the path of supporting people from healing from the inside out. Here you are on this path of helping people lead through, live, and heal through communities from the outside in. And how can we really make this land for our listeners? When I went to the ashram, I stopped hardcore dieting, I stopped hardcore working out, I stopped counting my macros, I stopped the Atkins diet, I stopped hardcore cardio. And instead I just was. And the way that I describe it, it was kind of like when we're out in the modern world and even, you know, let's put this through the lens of someone's wellness journey. We are this antenna that is open to the past, the future, the thoughts, the to-do list, all our responsibilities and expectations and relationships and traumas, as you mentioned. But when you go to the ashram, the stage is set. At your retreat center, the stage is set for healing to begin. And it happens through our environment and through, you know, the tradition, whether your outer world is a reflection of your inner world, your inner world is a reflection of your outer world. How would you say for people listening to really understand, like, it's not even needing a science anymore, like, that nature is healthy? You feel it when you go outside, you go into nature, you take an exhale. Think about your favorite place right now. In nature, you're probably taking a deep breath in and sighing, sighing it out. How did you know that cultivating an experience through an external world was an anchor for people to come home?

So, you know, my work is in the built environment, it's in communities, and I was very much, uh, one of the original investors, pioneers of the Wynwood Arts District, which was a dangerous, dilapidated, neglected warehouse district in kind of downtown Miami between the airport and Miami Beach that no one really paid attention to and was actually kind of quarantined off during the '80s in the Watts riots, in the race riots, such that they closed the stop on the highway to get off into that neighborhood. Fast forward, because it was so undesirable, the property values were really low, and so art collectors like the Rubells and art gallerists and artists came to the neighborhood because it was cheap, it was affordable, it was accessible, and they started to reimagine because it's always the creative class, it's always the innovators that come and reinvent something old. And that's such a beautiful repurposing and upcycling and reimagining, you know, a place, but also respecting the history and renovating these warehouses, which many people look at development as only new construction, but a lot of what I've been involved in from Miami Beach to Wynwood to Little Haiti to now the Phoenix Arts and Innovation District in Jacksonville is adaptively repurposing something that already was, that has that story, because America is so new as it is anyway compared to Asia and compared to Africa and Europe. But when you have historical connections, those are the stories, those are the connections to those places. So I'm not I'm not saying that we shouldn't build new things, but I'm saying before you just demolish the old thing, consider what value a building or a structure might play in the future storytelling of place. And how do you get connected to that? Because we're talking about places that you're connected to, and a lot of it has to do with the story or your connection. I came back to Central Florida not because it is the crucible of modern culture, and it's not. It's completely devoid of culture, but what it has is nature, and it has that spiritual anchor point, and it's got my connection of my childhood and those memories of connection and community, which has evolved dramatically because it's not the same as it was when I was growing up. Because the retreat center, some of the properties were, you know, were part of the ashram, and now they're part of the retreat center. So the names have changed and there's been evolution, but I've kept a lot of the old structure because they have meaning and they have that story. And imagine you're a retreat-goer and you come, and you come into our community center, which was originally designed for these composers from Disney for their organ. And then the ashram had it for 45 years, 48 years, as their community center where every event happened. And now it's our community center. So it's this continuation of that legacy, that richness you cannot create in a new construction opportunity. Now I'm going to build new buildings near it But it's that anchor and connect and that respect and honouring of the culture and the place that I think is part of what regenerative placemaking is all about. So why is the built environment, you know, the built environment is a reflection of our internal environments and our internal landscape. So what you see outside is a reflection of what's happening inside. So I always say that regeneration starts from within. That we have to work on ourself. Like Ram Dass said, "The best thing that you can do for me is work on yourself. The best thing I can do for you is work on myself." So in that vein, I think that's our first task as human is to work on our own regeneration internally. And then from that point, from that rootedness, from that anchor, from that grounded point, we can start to reimagine, you know, a world in which 100% of life is thriving, like Buckminster Fuller imagined. And I truly believe now that we're entering a new era of our civilization, which seems very scary. And there are a lot of threats to humanity, and some existential and external— meteors and other things. Many are by our own demise, you know, nuclear, you know, chemical, all the things that we're seeing. And there's also this golden era, this re-je-naissance that I call it, which is not unlike the Enlightenment period or the Renaissance, where human beings are gonna have all this newfound time to go back to the things that we love to do that makes us happy and brings us joy. Music, art, culture, pottery, woodworking, metalworking, all these things that We've lost all of those traditions and all of those creative outlets that now, hopefully, you know, if you look at the positive side of technology and AI, can create this new spaciousness for us to achieve this, just this renaissance, this new era of enlightenment. And I truly believe that there's going to be a lot of turbulence in the transition and a lot of civil unrest and a lot of fear. And I think that's why having tools that we talked about of being grounded and rooted in meditation and nature is so important to actually help. That's the medicine to get through this challenging period.

I think we all need to remember that through these challenges is— if we look back at history, there's almost always a renaissance. It's such an incredible time for art and resurrection. And a lot of people are calling this era a time of awakening. I really want to reframe it. It feels more like remembering, right? Like remembering what we need as a human being to survive and feel our best in this world. And I really want your work to be showcased as the opportunity to do things right. What's happening right now is that there is a lot of destruction. A lot of people are being called who have the urge to, you know, buy massive plots of land in areas that they don't know about, that they may not know about the history or the cultural roots or seek opportunities to really, you know, keep that as a standard for when they move. I think the word regenerative also, there's some greenwashing that's happened, happening around that. And while I really, you know, I really commend anyone who's brave enough to make a move into a new area to kind of reclaim life in nature. What are some of the things that you see as a design problem when people are trying to do this?

Really good question. And regenerative everything has become a buzzword, hopefully not as diluted and polarized and politicized as sustainability, which has largely failed as a movement and has been weaponized by political parties to define some to other, essentially. To me, fortunately, the term regenerative has not been politicized as of yet. But it has been overused and it's becoming trendy and people really need to understand what it means, you know, and, and what does regeneration mean versus sustainability, which sustainability is just sustaining. I mean, that's, that's the root understanding of it. It's actually not regenerating. It's not, it's not creating more value. And really the idea of, of regeneration is the actualization of potential.

Mm, I love that.

And people, so when you're looking at a new place to go or you're looking to rechart your life in a new land that's not from where you came from, you know, you have to ask yourself, am I importing ideas that are non-native, like a non-native species that can become invasive, or am I going to co-create and cultivate culture, soil, community that is actually regenerative with the place? And the place is not just humans, it's nature, it's animals, it's trees, it's mycelium, it's everything that's there. And is this what's best for the place, or is this what you think is best for you? And I think that there's a lot of bravado around, I'm doing the regenerative thing, and really it's an experiment, right? And because we don't know, and I've had projects that have backfired or had resistance in the past, that you think that you're doing something for the community, or you think you're a hero, but actually what you're offering is not needed or wanted. And so the, the best advice I can give to those who are seeking to do new projects in new lands is to deeply listen. And really, to me, that's a minimum of a 2-year period of what I've experienced before I've gone to other places, is really to deeply understand what makes a place tick. What is the history? What is the rhythm? Who are the people? What is the indigenous culture there? Not the existing culture today, but what has been the historical challenges. I mean, we're in Topanga right now. We're, you know, I— when you drive through the Pacific Palisades, you know, and Malibu, how many times have fires destroyed people's homes over and over again? And are, you know, are the planners listening to what nature is saying, you know? And, and so I think you really have to listen to nature. You have to listen to the community that's there, or the communities, because oftentimes there's diverse, different perspectives. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to be run by committee, because that can often be inefficient. But what it does mean is you need to, if you want to be regenerative, that you have to tap into ancestral wisdom, and you have to tap into the wisdom of nature and of the land and of the people. And it's just good business. If you want to just chalk this down to business advice and you want to get a project approved, well, you want the community behind you.

Yeah, we have a tendency in the US to want to fix everything, right? Fix our bodies, fix our bank accounts, fix everything, fix other people when they didn't even ask. And we go into these places and we think that, oh, you should do this, you should do all of these things, it would run so much more efficiently. I don't think we need any more evidence or awareness that nature knows. Best and knows exactly how to heal itself and how to function on its own, right? So, um, yeah, abandoning that mindset, I think, is something— even with our health— something that we all need to go through. And let's put this through, you know, another part of this. There's the desire to be in community. Now people want to go and live in community, and there's many parts of Asia and Europe, as you were mentioning before, they already have this, like You know, I'm— my dad grew up Hindu in India where, you know, it wasn't uncommon to live with your grandmother and great-grandmother. And then I go to Denmark and to Copenhagen, these families that live in communities where it's not uncommon for one family to take on cooking dinner once a night for the entire community there, right? And I think it's part of what keeps the ecosystem of the family unit happy, healthy, and strong. And yet we're moving into this very modern world where we're shutting down, we're becoming more lonely. We're doing a lot of things online and there are beautiful gifts to that. But, you know, now media is finally reflecting— what was it the US Surgeon General declared? Smoking being as— loneliness being as toxic as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. You had a beautiful reframe saying that loneliness isn't a personal failure, it's a design flaw. Can you break that down a little bit and what that means?

Yes, and you know, theoretically we're more connected, we're connected, more connected than ever because of social media and technology, yet people are reporting the highest levels of loneliness, disconnection, suicide are at alarming rates. And so why is that? It's because we've designed our societies to optimize for automobiles, for disconnection, for gated communities, for nuclear families. You just made a reference to that. You know, what's beautiful is the entire lineages, multi-generational and, and, and, and, and, and different incomes and socioeconomic background being able to engage. I mean, that was what was beautiful about New York in the '80s, right? You didn't know billionaire would dump— we would run into a homeless person, somebody experiencing homelessness, and that diversity really created, you know, something that was magical in a way. And so I think, you know, we've designed our societies to separate generations and to separate people of different castes, of different socioeconomic backgrounds. And so you look at Latin America where, you know, my wife Ximena was from, from Colombia, and you look at other places, families stay together. You know, they have that community and it's not just, the mom, the dad, the grandparents, it's the aunts, the uncles, the nieces, the nephews, and they're constantly together. And so there's this real, the family is a community in and of itself. And then there's friends and friends that become the extended community. So I really believe that authentic connected community is the antidote to loneliness. And if you look at all the longevity studies or Blue Zones, Dan Buettner is a dear friend of mine and our frameworks of regenerative placemaking and Blue Zones are very, very similar in the way that community is one of the highest pillars. And the people that, you know, it's not so much whether they drink wine or not or they smoke cigarettes. It's do they have a reason for living? Do they have a connection? Do they have a purpose? And all of these communities have that connection to their grandkids, the next generation. They have a reason for living. They have a purpose. And so they're not giving up on life and they're not feeling depressed and they're not feeling lonely. And so I think the way— and you talked about Europe and you talked about Denmark and places like that— they're also optimizing for communities and they're really emphasizing, you know, bicycles and being outside and all that urban infrastructure that creates connectivity, like parks and civic places and biophilic design and feeling like you're in nature when you're in the middle of an urban area. It's why people love Topanga. You know, you're 30 minutes from from downtown LA without traffic. And you— I'm hearing the birds chirping, and you know, you said you heard 10 birds this morning, and all this beautiful magic of nature. And we know how much that heals us. So why don't we design cities as a response to what our nervous system wants and what we need, of being connected in communities, being connected to nature, having good nutritious food that's not depleted soil or filled with pesticides. These are not really complicated concepts. Super complicated to execute with monocropping and capitalism that doesn't take into account the negative impacts of capitalism, which is not accounting for social impacts or environmental impacts. And we, we exist within a capitalistic framework. And I, I am somebody who believes in a lot of aspects of the free market and capitalism, but when it's regulated in a way that doesn't make it stifle innovation.

And that's possible.

And it is possible. All of this is possible. We just need to reimagine and reset the current framework that we have and evolve it to something that's more environmentally and socially in balance for what it is. Because there are a lot of good things that have come out of efficiency and free markets and, you know, a lot of positive things, innovation that has happened in the medical field So there's a lot of exciting things that are happening, and we have all the tools that we need to reinvent our society in a way that heals us instead of hurting us and making us sick. Because the way that we have designed society now is it makes us sick and it doesn't heal us.

We all just got that memo, right? When we got into this dangerous world, and it's not just about food. Diet and exercise, right? Connection with others in nature is a foundational pillar of optimization. And one of the reasons that I was excited to find your work also is because I'm noticing the past few years when I'm able to shift my client's healing protocol to a stance where— and this could be for listeners right now— if you feel overwhelmed in your symptoms, right? Your irritability, your bloating, your fatigue, your poor sleep, your hormones, whatever it is. We often start to spin in those symptoms, spin in our suffering, right? Because we are isolated. Or we go out, we meet with other people, and they're kind of mirroring back, "Oh, I'm suffering too. I'm suffering too." And it's like this two-way, you know, synchronistic suffering. But when you go to places like an ashram or to retreat centers or to live in these communities, you meet with other people who are going through suffering in their own way, But it's almost like you're releasing the pressure valve and personal suffering often becomes something that it just, it takes the edge off because you're connected with other people knowing that whatever this part of life that you're met with, there's always two roads that you can take. And one could be the detriment, the suffering, the spinning, which we now know is gonna be part of the demise because that's your nervous system, right? Living that dysregulated state. Or there's the other side of things. Where you don't have to believe it, where you can actually focus on things that are outside of yourself. Going back to that spiritual journey that I mentioned, and I don't want to gloss over— I wish that I had the opportunity to meet your beautiful wife. I was doing some research prior to the show and I read a little bit about her story. It sounds like she had an approach for her disease that was different and maybe surprising to some people. Can you tell us a little bit about Ximena?

Sure. So Ximena was also known as Sharada, which is the goddess of music and beauty, and that my grandmother gave her, who married— my grandmother married us on 11/11/11, so November 11th, 2011. And 4 months after my grandmother married us, she was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer. And she pretty much died 3 months to the date of diagnosis. And I was with her by her bedside with Ximena. And that experience of being with a guru through a passing, with hundreds of people chanting in the temple and the worshiping of the body and the ritual around it and the celebration and the passion and the colors, impacted my wife, particularly Ximena, in a way that I think really informed her own regenerative dying experience. And my whole life is about regenerative living. And I grew up around a lot of death and dying at the ashram because my grandmother worked a lot with HIV and AIDS and during the AIDS epidemic. And so I was— had the privilege of being by the bedside of many people in the last moments of their life because many people came to Kashi to die. And their ashes are in the Ganga, or Ganga pond. We have a pond that's modeled after the Ganges in India. And so that really had an impact on my upbringing of, and really gave me a zest and a passion for life. And my wife grew up Catholic, you know, in Colombia, and didn't have that same exposure to the ritual of death and reincarnation, all those Eastern philosophies. But she, my wife, was exquisitely beautiful inside and out. She was also in fashion merchandising, worked for Hugo Boss in Madrid and other places, and I met her in nightlife. And then she had her spiritual awakening and went to India and Bali and studied Ashtanga. And I, when I reconnected with her, because I had met her in nightlife when I was in my early 20s, and I was not in any position to be in a relationship or, you know, worthy of her at that moment, but she She always was somebody that caught my eye as being so elegant and so classy and so just, you know, light. You know, she was just light. And when we reconnected 7 years later, she didn't know anything about my background of growing up in an ashram. She didn't know anything about me being in real estate at that time. She only knew me as the nightlife guy. And she was on her own spiritual journey. And when we reconnected at an art walk in Wynwood at a friend's place, she started telling me about her journey and that she was going to go to this ashram. And I was like, I was playing it cool because I was like, I was at that point, I was still, you know, I wasn't that reconnected with my grandmother and I was still kind of defining myself in Miami and in business and all of that. And then she asked me if I wanted to go to a Deva Premal concert the next day.

Yes.

And I knew Deva Premal. Of course, she didn't know that I knew Deva Premal, so I kept it quiet. I kept that in my back pocket. And then when we walked into the Unitarian Church where David Perma was playing the next day, the whole church knew me, and they're like, Tony, my spiritual brother, what are you doing here? Vajra Hanuman. And she's like, what? Who is this nightclub promoter? And then 2 weeks later, we were together at the ashram, and my grandmother met her and fell in love with her. But Jimena was the embodiment of this soft power that I call her. And I wrote an article about it, and I'm starting to write a book about the teachings that I learned from our 17-year journey. Although we knew each other for like 25 years, we were together for 17 years, married for 14 years. And so much magic came out of our sacred union that in— that, that really inspired our community because we had— we have a connection and a love that's so deep because our marriage is not, is not between us only. We have this marriage to the divine. It's like this triangle relationship, meaning that our relationship has a bigger purpose to impact more than just us. And that, that connection— and we— and I, and I'm somebody who, who grew up, you know, at the ashram and had a lot of celebrations and then became a nightclub promoter, so I love throwing big amazing celebrations and parties. So, you know, I threw— we've probably had like 10 anniversaries celebrations. And when she got diagnosed with cancer the first time in 2017 on Halloween, and then she beat cancer the first time, I threw basically a festival called the Love and Life Festival, and we invited 300 people, host them at our retreat center, and it was magical. So many musicians and artists, and everybody contributed something. And this event was like a portal because so many people— like, I was even in a vision festival in Costa Rica a few weeks ago, and somebody— and this event was in 2018— came up to me and told me how that event changed their life. And so this bringing together of people and celebrating is an act of regeneration, even though it was— I extended myself from an organizational standpoint, a financial standpoint. It was a very expensive to host everybody, but the gifts that we keep on getting back even today from honoring that. And thank God I did that, because I didn't know that she was going to get cancer again. I didn't know that this was all going to happen. And so Ximena really was, you know, very much my soulmate and, and my, my anchor point, and was just very practical and simple and beautiful. And I never witnessed anybody embrace and go towards death in a more graceful, courageous, fearless, beautiful way than she did. And she taught me and so many so much because even in those last days, she was dancing in place. She was 80 pounds and she was just celebrating life and just thanking God and the universe for every moment and every breath that she had, even though she was on oxygen. She was just— she never complained. She never said, 'Poor me, why me?' And she just really embraced— she didn't want to take any, like, substances to kind of numb the pain. She wanted to go through this process because it's beautiful and it's part of life. And it was— and she manifested exactly the way that she wanted to transcend this world. And she did it at home. And, you know, she had tumors in brain and cancer throughout her body, and she was on oxygen. So anything could have happened at any moment, taking her to the hospital, which is what she didn't want. So she ended up passing at home in a sacred ritual, our shamans, you know, singing medicine music for 6 hours, all of her songs. She had a playlist. She was surrounded by the ones she loved most in the world. The sun was setting. I mean, it was just exquisite.

I don't know why I brought Kleenex down here. And what a gift, right? What a gift. Um, we're using these words sustainability and regeneration, and I often think it's almost like we're missing the mark. We're not, uh, we're not connected to why it's all so important. And another gift from the ashram is the celebration of life and of death. And, you know, I think we're so focused in our society to make it, making it to 120 or 150, and yet we're missing what's right in front of us and the celebration that can come with every single day. And so here we are sharing these stories of the power that comes when we're with other people, when we're connected to other people, when we're connected to the earth, and yet we're still dismissing it. And I don't mean to say this in a way like, you know, whoever's listening is not doing their job. It's to pull back the layers and to see more stories like this of people who truly lived a great life and had a different reframe of what it means to be alive in today's world and the gift that it is and the power that we all have to really make that change every single day. Whereas from my experience in the work that I do, a lot of people We're addicted to the stress, the overwhelm, the media, the clicks, the likes, the to-do, the global politics. And even when we think about our food system, our water system, our air, our soil, everything is just— it feels a little overwhelming and destructive. What would the impact be then with this gift that you saw, this lens that you now have of life? It's translating into your work, obviously. It's part of your purpose. Part of your mission. She was an incredible teacher for you. Um, if you could leave listeners with part of that, what would you want to say to them to remember?

I think the thing that Ximena taught me most was presence and this appreciation for how sacred and precious our lives are, our life is, and to have one breath. I mean, she Her wish was that she could just have a little more time on earth because she was so blessed and she was so grateful for her life and being able to dance and celebrate and have community. And it's— I think her approach to death— she called cancer her greatest teacher.

Chua.

So her approach to death made me really appreciate my life so much more. And really made me ground in like what matters. And I'm very much the type A ambitious, doing 100 million things and want to impact the lives of a billion people. But at the end of the day, what am I doing for me? And am I overextending myself, my energy, my financial resources? And oftentimes I was getting ahead of myself into a place where it made me not grounded and made me disconnected and then added stress and anxiety that I really couldn't enjoy my life. I've already made it in life, you know, we've already— it's— and so much of this is about being and stop doing, right? And I think that that was the greatest teaching that Ximena gave me, was just, just being more and just living more and just having gratitude and, and having presence. In every moment, the thing that Ximena had. And, and it was interesting because she did so much spiritual work with plant medicines and all these different modalities and everything to continue evolving. And I think a lot of that helped her really have this very elevated, evolved approach to graceful dying. So I think those were really important tools, but even she struggled because she didn't have a traditional job. She didn't have it, which I think allowed her to be so present with every person that I encounter. People all over the world that either only met her once or had a brief encounter but was so impacted by that moment because she was so present for them. And it's not like most of us that have 100 things on our mind, and we're like, I've got 5 seconds for this conversation. What's in it for me? And then what's next? And that's often, sadly, how many of us operate. And that doesn't make you a bad person. It's just, again, it's a design flaw. We, we think that being busy means that we're successful, and it doesn't. It has nothing to do with that. It's working smarter, not harder. It's been a motto of mine my whole life. And also, when enough is enough, like, it's What is the most important thing, you know, in your life? And it's health and well-being. It's not material things. We can't take any of these things with you. And Ximena spent the last 2 years of her life getting rid of stuff, lightening, because she wanted to leave the world clean. She didn't want to have a path of trauma or, you know, people fighting. And I've never experienced so much light when somebody transcended. There was no disputes, there was no people— like, even the way that we dealt with our state and our will, it was so just— it was so smooth, and it was so like— she really, she really took care of things so that in her wake things would be peaceful and things would be a trail of just beauty and light., and I was just very grateful for that. She really was responsible about what she was leaving behind in her legacy and was very thoughtful about not having anything, like kind of Marie Kondo but in a spiritual way, not having anything that you don't need that's not sacred to you, whether it's an article of clothing, whether it's, you know, a material possession, a car, whatever it is, is does it bring you joy? And is it something that you truly need? You know, because we think we need all these things when we really don't.

Not at all. Do you find yourself when you go back to the ashram, the peace that comes with not having anything? Like, I even think about, um, you know, the yoga clothes and the outfits that we buy, all the things that we buy to try to fit in. And then you go to the ashram, you're wearing a pair of white cotton pants and a cotton t-shirt for days. I think there is beauty in simplification and how that impacts our nervous system and it brings for our nervous system that impacts how we go out into the world. So, can you paint a picture then, one, the inspiration, thank you for sharing Humana with us, how you guys kind of built Chosen to represent that kind of lifestyle and environment for people?

So, chosen. We never intended to have a retreat center, and it really happened by accident because after my grandmother passed in 2012, we bought a house near the ashram on the water, on this really beautiful river called the St. Sebastian River, which is connected to the Indian River Lagoon, which is the most biodiverse lagoon system in North America. And we have 26 endangered species, and and that land is super sacred and super magical. It looks like the Amazon of Florida. It's really beautiful. And we were very inspired by just being in nature, and it was a really amazing contrast and balance for us living in Miami and then traveling around the world and kind of our life. And so, but we never really spent more than, I don't know, like 5 consecutive days there until the pandemic. And then when the pandemic happened, you know, they briefly shut down the beaches in Miami Beach, and we're like, okay, let's go to the retreat center, we'll ground there. And we ended up really connecting with the land at that point. And, you know, we had attempted to collaborate and do stuff with the ashram, but it wasn't really flowing. And so, you know, we have this global community, we've gone to Burnie Man. We've been everywhere. And then we started to host groups, and it just started happening organically. And it was just very much like a retreat center out of your garage. Like, literally, that's what happened. And it was birthed. And then all of a sudden, all these incredible beings started showing up from all over the world. And it was really word of mouth that happened because we were never intending to have a retreat center. And then you know, the ashram, you know, started to contract and started to want to, you know, simplify. And so they started to want to sell assets, and I felt this responsibility to steward that land that I had grown up on and not for it to have some terrible developer come to do what was typical in that area, which is subdivide it into quarter-acre lots and make it horrendous, the American nightmare. And I was like, no, I'm not going to let this master planned community from this urban planner from India, Kim T. Sharma, who had master planned these 80 acres as a cradle-to-cradle intentional community. I'm not going to let this just go to someone unrelated to the family. And so I was determined, and Ximena was not as committed because it was a huge responsibility and an undertaking that has proven to be a major, major undertaking much more than we had ever imagined. And now actually it's evolved into a full nonprofit. It's a bioregional hub for regeneration, which ultimately was the mission, because all I really wanted to do was protect and steward that land in the most responsible way. And in the process, as Ximena and I worked a lot with indigenous cultures— you know, she was from Colombia, we— and she went to the Amazon a lot, and we We worked with the Kogi and the Yawanawa and the Wiwa, and we even have Kogi names. And we're very passionate about the message at this time from the indigenous leaders about our responsibility to steward and protect Mother Earth. And so a lot of our ritual and our new mythology and mythos was around nature.. And so we started celebrating the equinoxes and the solstices and the moon cycles and really leaning into kind of nature's holidays and really wanted to get away from any of the religious connotations of that. Not because it's not beautiful and we don't honor and respect it, but we were creating a new story, you know, for us and for our community. And this weekend I'm going home to celebrate the equinox with, you know, our community that's going are going to come from Miami and from other parts of the world and from the state. And really the things that resonated with us. And so we started just, you know, hosting events and then people started renting the facility. And then the ashram sold another property to us, which was the school site. And then 3 years ago they ended up selling another 34 acres, which was the community center and the retreat center. Which were old homes that were part of it, and it was a very emotional process. And still, there's still a lot of attachment because it was a certain way for 50 years, and my grandmother was running it a certain way, and then when she passed, you know, a lot of things changed because she was the charismatic leader that basically decided everything.

Yeah.

And now that decision-making mechanism was no longer in place, and I had a different idea of a way to make it financially sustainable. And, you know, there has been a process and a project to make it happen, but there's been so much beauty out of that challenge that has emerged. As they say, the lotus always emerges from the mud. And I feel Chosen is a beautiful lotus that has emerged through a lot of hardship and adversity. And it continues to because it's working on family dynamics and family constellations, which is where all of our wounds reside, you know, for most of us. And so for me, that's been my work to do in this world on a personal level. But what it's been, it's become a demonstration project for regenerative placemaking. And so Chosen as a Bioregional Hub's mission is to conserve millions of acres of the Florida Wildlife Corridor through education, storytelling, and conservation. To educate, connect people with nature, make them aware of how important it is to protect it, and really promote better ways to develop human settlements in balance with wildlife corridors, green corridors, blue corridors, How do we balance, you know, and understand that what we do upstream affects us downstream? So we pollute the water upstream, which is where we are, of course it's going to have an impact on us downstream. So it's become this beautiful project that's now a full nonprofit, a bioregional hub, and now we're looking at expanding Chosen to Colombia, maybe Portugal, and other places that have these nodes of eco— I would call it eco-spiritual intentional communities. So the alternative to the golf course community, that's— let's call it the modern ashram, where you can have your privacy, you can have modern, uh, you know, amenities, where you can have a beautiful spa, you can have an amazing farm-to-table restaurant, but you have the anchor point of those communities and you can co-create and co-design your own rituals. You know, it's not necessarily— and it can be inspired by any faith, any tradition. And again, it has to be rooted in place because each place is different. Chosen was born out of the swamp and the ashram in Chosen, and it's a limb of the same tree. But what happens in Colombia, what happens in Portugal, is going to have to be informed by the place, the people, and the culture.

I just want to reflect the amount of energy. I mean, looking back, it must feel like kind of divine alignment to got you here, but the amount of energy that it takes for you to have done all this is pretty incredible. It really is. And I think in terms of the lens of timing, when the world needs it most, it feels like now is perfectly aligned. And thank you for sharing such great details, because I think a lot of people, if they're not necessarily invested yet in whatever regenerative and sustainability means, they're starting to understand those concepts. I think that there's so much power when someone chooses to go to a destination that is invested in those things, where it also has the potential to serve your health and serve your wellness and serve your peace of mind and your nervous system as a true getaway. I think that that's pretty incredible. Do you see a lot of design flaws happening in wellness now in terms of wellness getaways and You know, I'm often asked to go and do an audit of longevity wellness retreat centers and stuff like that and what's missing. But I think that there's a lot of them and stuff that are really missing the boat, or sorry, really missing the mark. And what would you like, what if you were to forecast if this were to go right, what should these wellness and retreat centers look like?

It's a great question. And I think it's very place-specific, it's culture-specific. And that's where regenerative placemaking comes in, has to be formed by that place, because it's all about resonance, right? When we talk about are you connected and are you in balance and resonance with that place, are you doing something that's extracting, are you doing something that's going to regenerate? Because if you're purporting to be regenerating the guests that come and visit but you're extracting the local population, the energetics are all off, and it's gonna— and, and you're gonna feel it. You're gonna feel that incongruence and that imbalance with the place. So that's why my work in regenerative placemaking— people understand what that is, but it's really, it's working with place. It's working with understanding where you are, what is the history of that place, why it's important, and what is your connection to that place. And if you don't know who you are, how can you be connected to a place? So that's where it goes back to starting with the individual. But so many people think that regenerative hospitality is all about having the latest biohacking equipment. That's the last detail, and it's probably not that important, to be honest with you. What really creates, um, that healing is the connection to that place. It's to nature, and it's to local cultures, and it's to the people working in those places. So it's the people. So people are the asset. So who do you have working in there? And what are they bringing to the table? What kind of experiences? Because experiences can be traumatic or they can be healing. So your interactions at a hospitality level have a lot to do with who's working at these retreats and what is their knowledge and what is their wisdom and what are they providing. So I think it goes back to place and to people and less about the equipment. And so many— what the wellness real estate industry is now going to be a multi-trillion dollar industry. And what most people are doing is they're just taking a big name, you know, like a starchitect or a wellness guru, and they're branding a gym with a sauna and a cold plunge, and they're saying this is a regenerative or wellness. That's, that's, that's, that's a big red flag. I just— if you really want to understand what regenerative is, it goes much deeper than that. It's in the building materials. If you call yourself regenerative but you're using like you know, toxic paints or using toxic materials, and you weren't using plastics and all those things, it's not regenerative. Because I just went to Portugal and I went to a longevity clinic where I did blood apheresis, and I looked at myself that has a pretty good lifestyle, and I have all these environmental toxins, microplastics, and heavy metals in my blood. And I consider myself pretty healthy. And I'm like, well, it's the environments that we're living that are poisoning us. And our food packaging, you know, our soil, it's everything that we're eating, it's everything that we're breathing, you know, it's, it's the— it's everything that we're absorbing through our skin, you know. It's all of that. You put in all these— people put on all these creams and these, these cosmetics and suntan oils, and it's wondering why we have all these illnesses and why we're so sick. And so if you really want to be regenerative, it's got to go really deep into the connection with place, the people, the culture, the building materials. It's a lot to actually say that you're regenerative. So I would be cautious about who is the person, and it starts with trust. You have to really trust the people that are behind it and what their intention is. And sometimes these solutions, like not using plastic and others, become more expensive. And so it's very hard to make the right choices. And that goes back to incentives and design flaws. You talk about, well, how do we design for well-being? Is we properly incentivize our developers, our investors, our bit— our cities to build things that are going to heal us, because we know that's going to save billions of dollars in the medical and hospital system, that there's so much benefit from doing the right thing by people, that it's worth the additional investment and incentives.

So powerful. Do the research and go to the places, choose the places where— I even hate the word biohacking. Go somewhere where you don't have to hack yourself to feel better. You can just go focus on harmonizing yourself to feel better. Well, I recently went to a very— I mean, they are very expensive wellness and longevity retreat center. Plastic cups, plastic tea bags. I ate dinner every single night all by myself because it was structured that way too. And it just, it wasn't it at all. I want to go over the power of places that you keep alluding to. You talk about third places, and this is very special. It's a place between someone's house and someone's work, I guess, the two areas where people spend the most time. What is the power of the third place?

So third places are very important, and oftentimes, you know, in history, historically, third places have been churches, mosques, and synagogues, a place where community comes together to connect and to pray and to be together. And so what I think we need to think about is what are the temples of modern culture? What are those third places that are not your work and not your home, which many people now are combining work and home, so even less connection, right? Because you're not going to a second place to meet other people. You work from home, right? So you have that, and you were just mentioning that you have a desire to connect more with community. You feel sometimes a little isolated in Topanga, even though you're in nature and has all the other benefits to it. You know, you're missing out on that connection to community in the workspace, and you're missing out on the, on the connection of the third place. So What is the community center that's maybe a little bit more cool and sexy than the Y, than the YMCA? So it's like we have to evolve that concept. And my response to that was the Climate Innovation Hub in Miami that I've created, which is a wellness space, an event space, a coworking space. We're going to have food and beverage there. It's kind of like a hub for community to come together. And so I believe there's this concept and there's this opportunity to create third places in neighborhoods, in communities, in cities where people can come together and commune and be in community and connect. And so I think we've overlooked that. And I mean, you could repurpose old churches, synagogues, and mosques that are no longer being places of worship. Now, those who have those faiths, that's beautiful. And I think that's one of— I would argue that probably one of the main reasons that religions have lasted as long as they have without a new story, without a new mythology, is because of community and less because of religion.

Absolutely.

And I might be called a heretic, and people might— this might be very controversial, and I'm not typically a controversial person, but I think because of my upbringing and because of my experience, I can speak on this topic, right?

Yeah, it was very confusing growing up. I went to Catholic school every day, and then we would go to temple on the weekend where everyone would be singing and dancing, and there was beauty in that. But what I'm feeling, I guess the translation, it's the feeling of satsang, right? It's a place to go and gather, and whether you connect or speak with the person next to you, it's sitting and communing together, which is so therapeutic and so healing. Tell us about your book and why the power of this coming out now is so special. What will people gain by reading Generation Regeneration?

So Generation Regeneration is the culmination of kind of my life's work of being, you know, growing up in community, an intentional community, becoming a nightclub promoter in Argentina, Miami, New York, traveling around the world, being in real estate and a pioneer of the Wynwood Arts District, and seeing how creative places. And I started out in really more creative placemaking with, with the likes of Tony Goldman, who was one of the legends in the, in the, in the industry. And seeing how, you know, these places can become gentrified so quickly, and where the heart and soul can be squeezed out of Main Street so quickly. And starting to hold this inquiry of how can we co-design, co-create cities of the future, communities of the future that are equitable, that are inclusive, that are regenerative, that, that actually bring forth life and don't extract from us and don't make us feel sick as our current, the most modern cities and communities and neighborhoods do. And that was the inspiration for starting the Future of Cities, which really aims to impact the lives of a billion people, but really more through the ideas of what talking. Not that I'm gonna do or have the desire to do projects that house a billion people, but hopefully these ideas will spark something in someone that will say, you know what, I can adapt that to where I am in Asia or in Europe or in Africa, and it'll inspire me to create a third place, or inspire me to do something that is more biophilic and connected with nature, because, you know, science and data show that that being connected to nature makes people more happy. You know, you have places like Bhutan with the, the happiness product, you know, and gross happiness product versus, you know, the, the domestic product, right? And focusing on economics. And so I look at regenerative placemaking, which combines regenerative development with creative placemaking concepts, as a framework that's non-prescriptive, because I can't tell anyone what they can do in their own place. I can just give give people examples, ideas, toolkits, which we have in the book, and really inspire people to adapt those ideas and, and adopt them as their own. And it's an open-source framework, and we're going to be teaching courses on it, and it'll evolve. So to me, it's a movement more than a book, and it's really exciting because it's been 4 years of my life. It started with research, and then, you know, my wife got sick, so it was delayed. So I think it is— everything happens in divine timing, and it feels like the right moment on the age of the Renaissance, on the age of this Age of Aquarius of enlightenment, awakening, with a lot of challenges that we're facing. I think this is a new perspective, and I wouldn't say it's the answer or it's any— it's gospel at all. It is an experiential framework. It's something that I experienced and that I'm sharing with the world. And fortunately, I've had experts and academics and people from around the world who have supported it, endorsed it, you know, written the foreword— Dr. Dominique Hess and Bill Reed, who's like the godfather of the, the U.S. Green Building Council and green building movement. And so I've been fortunate to have all these mentors and contributors that kind of round it out. So it's not Tony's framework, this is a collective framework of regenerative placemakers with different perspectives that have helped keep it honest, keep it practical, and it's super easy to understand. It's very simple.

It's so beautiful and so simple, and it's, um, it's shocking that these questions haven't been asked up until now. And it's not just you, it's me too. I have an entire program called How to Build Rasha, wherever you are in the world. And what that looks like, because as a nutritionist, I can tell you we're living in an era where there's never been more information about what to eat, what supplements to take, what protocol to follow. And yet here we are, the rates of obesity, diabetes, mental health issues, disease are on the rise amongst adults and children. Okay, so I want everyone listening to just imagine, what if Look at where you spend the most time. What if it's your environment? What if it was just never designed for health or happiness, for connection or for wholeness? And what if that disconnection is the one thing that has helped keep you in a suffering state, right? And I think it's a really powerful reframe because people can say, well, what if there's a better way? And that really leaves room for optimism about the future. As you've beautifully told stories about today. Your book comes out in August. Um, who, who needs to buy this book?

So I really wanted to make this accessible for anybody. So it's for the average citizen who really wants to be participating in this co-creation of the new world that we all know is possible. So it's for everybody. It's not just for policymakers or urban planners or architects or developers, although I think it will help them a lot because that's their industry in some regards. But we're doing this amazing online summit in July and we're inviting experts from all aspects of the regenerative movement, from regenerative agriculture and wellbeing to regenerative placemaking and real estate. It's really covering the gambit of all the aspects of what regeneration actually means. And that's why we called the title Generation Regeneration, because what are we leaving for the next generation? And I really do believe that the next generation believes and can really embody these principles because this is how they think, this is how they believe. And with all the technology and the tools we have, anything is possible. We're living in this fantastical world where we can create anything that we want, and we know the power of our ideas and how things can quickly become a reality if we manifest them. So from relationships to regenerative dying, everything is going to be covered in that summit. So it's an evolution of what the book has done, which is really focused on regenerative placemaking and using examples not only from the projects that I've worked on, but projects from from all over the world that are examples of what people are doing in the space so that people can get ideas. There's toolkits, there'll be a, there'll be a course afterwards and a certification. And my dream is that we really can impact as many people positively in this world with these ideas, with these examples, with these courses, and inspire the world to just be happier and healthier and more connected.

You talk the right language. And I think from Tuwei, uh, you've just beautifully showcased through the cultivations of the relationships that you have and the people and the awareness of what is happening out there, I think a lot of this change can happen sooner than later. So how can people find you and learn more about this?

Sure, well, you can go to my website at tonycho.com. You can subscribe to my Substack. I, I write articles about a lot of these themes every couple of weeks. Uh, follow me on Instagram, @TonyCho. And, um, and yeah, follow me on YouTube.

To close things off, what's one ancient principle that you believe modern society urgently needs to return to?

I really believe in the power of ritual.

And sorry, that's my word.

I think rituals, but without being dogmatic or religious, I think ritual can be almost anything that you make sacred. And so I think my belief, and what's been beautiful, is creating my own rituals inspired from my background of many faiths that I've studied and I've been exposed to, from indigenous wisdom traditions to Hinduism to Buddhism. I've been fortunate to be exposed to a lot of different philosophies, and I think why many people don't have ritual in their life is because maybe they think it's connected to a religion. And there's been ritual since that predated religion, you know, Wiccan traditions, nature rituals. I mean, celebrating the equinox and the solstice— what's more ancient than that, you know? Nature rituals. So I just find so much enrichment and intention in ritual. And, you know, my meditation is a ritual, by the way. Sometimes my meditation could be just silence. Sometimes I'm listening to Insight Timer. Sometimes I'm listening to other things, or sometimes I'm doing my own guided meditation. So there's no right or wrong, right? I think that's the most thing— create your own ritual that enhances and enriches your life.

You've been all my life, so I say The Secret to everyone's— this perfect healing protocol and longevity it's to fall in love with whatever rituals in your life make you feel whole. And I think that that does come from Mona Sharma. And there's nothing religious about it at all. They're just rituals to connect you to source. Tony, such an honor. I cannot wait to have you back. I cannot wait to learn more about everything that you're doing. We're going to share everything. We'll put a link out to your book, Generation Regeneration, that comes out in August. It's perfect.

Thank you so much! It's such a pleasure to meet you; it has been an honor— thank you, Mona Sharma.

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