Why Wellness Feels Overwhelming and What Actually Helps with Kate Prince and Jo Woodhurst

If wellness feels complicated for you, you're doing it wrong.

I think trends in general have trends, hacks, whatever you want to call them, they have over complicated what wellness is and it's in our brand name. Wellness is ancient. It's been there for a really long time.

I've never worked with so many people, men and women who are anxious, who are waking up at 3 o' clock in the morning, who are doing all the right things, the checklist, every single day. And yet they're wired and they're tired. All right, Kate and Joe, welcome to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

I'm so excited to have you. So, one of the best parts about this job, I've fallen in love with podcasting, but one, the friends that I get to bring into this, and two, meeting female founders like yourself who are so deeply rooted into the essence of what I want to bring into the world. And as we were just talking about ancient wisdom in our modern day world, and I really think that women own a really special place in this category because it's wisdom and I think it's something that we all know. But for a long period of time, we tried to lean into this very western world and now we're coming back. So welcome to the podcast.

Oh, it's so exciting to be here.

Yeah.

We're going to be talking about some key things with obviously womanhood and wellness. I wanted to point out that your brand, ancient and brave, not only are you mission driven, you are a B corp brand. And you just shared with me that 85% of your company is women.

Yeah, that's right.

Like hell, yes. Surely that I'm so excited. I'm not even starting the podcast the same way that I usually do because that got me so excited. So let's start off with the basics. This podcast is all about, as I mentioned, ancient wisdom in our modern world. And really showcasing all of the practices that help us feel more rooted, that's rooted in our health, in ourselves and our happiness, and what I believe is our kind of inner knowingness that we have to heal our own bodies. So if you guys want to share maybe one or two practices that you have, each that help you feel really rooted in the mornings, I love that.

Well, I can start with this morning. I always try and get some morning sunlight as soon as the sun comes up this morning because we are also battling with some jet lag. I was really waiting on tenterhooks for that sun to rise and it was so beautiful to see the sun rising. This morning. And I also just try a little bit of connection. So it could be connection to myself, bit of meditation, connection to my kid, a bit of a hug in the morning. Just something that brings me back into that present moment.

I mean, similar, I think, very much like we've. We arrived in LA a few days ago and actually because of the job, the first thing I did was like get up on the rooftop in the sun, came up in LA and had a lovely swim actually, which was fantastic. And even though it's January, the weather has been very kind to us here. And actually daily I at home, I'm very early riser, sometimes too early, I mean, 5:00am, probably even earlier sometimes. And actually, depending on when I rise, I will get up. I have actually fortunate to have two saunas and an INFA and the Swedish. And actually, if I've got the time before work, I'll go in and I'll get up and go in and then I have a very old, very cold pool, never heated, ever. And often I'll drop in there if I've got time. So I try and get out very early. And I love it when no one else is awake.

Isn't it the best? Yeah. When women answer this question on the podcast, I wish we could just shout to the rooftops the importance of prioritizing those morning things. And we hear about it so often in morning, in social media and stuff like that, but our physiology actually shifts. Right. If we can fill ourselves or ground or root first thing in the morning before we go out into the world.

Definitely.

And I think it's also very personal, like we have different practices and the last thing I'll say is that they're always free.

Yeah.

The experts sitting in that chair always mention modalities that are free.

Totally.

So that says a lot. So being in this world and growing a brand which takes a tremendous amount of effort, what causes you to feel uprooted? And do you notice when you're uprooted?

I mean. Yes, yeah, definitely. I think modern world is just extremely uprooting. You know, we, as you mentioned, we evolved to be in quite a simplistic environment. You know, just that morning sunlight, a little bit of a calmer start in the morning. That's part of our physiology and how we would have evolved. And the modern world throws all sorts at us to disconnect us from how things were once used to be. So even just, you know, the bright lights of a city, being in a high rise building, you know, not being close to the ground, all those things really do make you feel uprooted. So I think as often as possible, just creating something that's a bit more simple, bringing things back to the basics, that kind of brings me back down from feeling uprooted. And when things are almost. The pendulum swings too far the other way in the modern world, that's when I start to feel a little bit discombobulated.

I love that, what you said, that essence of bringing you back, which I think is what healing is. I think we are so focused on getting somewhere with healing, but it's actually complete return to.

It's a remembering. Right. Yeah, totally agree.

And I often think that's why, you know, partly why people start their own brands because they want to create their own environments in their own space. So when I first started the brand, it was, you know, kitchen table. But I'm fortunate. I live in 10 acres and I live in nature. And I think, I mean, even now we've, We've. We don't. The brand isn't in London. You know, we've made it out in the countryside and then we've taken it now into a market town, but very much on a river. So we've got nature right outside our windows. And there's a whole river life going on that I would never experience if I hadn't moved the business there. And I think there's a calmness to that. And for me, that's been so important, Creating the right space and the right environment, not just for myself, but everyone who works with us and the whole team. And I think we all benefit from that.

Yeah. Nature is embedded into our brand in every single element. So from the ingredients we use to the things we believe in, to how we have shaped the ethos of the brand, it's all kind of flaving in. So beautiful.

I seriously fell in love with you when I started reading everything about you, so. Yeah, and that's a really good point. So last year I started a. An online community and I wondered what it would be like because people are calling in from so many different places. But what I'm finding is that the men and the women in my community from different parts of the world were craving the same essence. So even if we can just show up and for 60 minutes hold the essence of tuning in or remembering or mindfulness or whatever that feeling is, is so powerful. Where you live sounds a lot more dreamy.

It's very nice. But I think also what I can tend to do personally is I can go sort of like slightly compound and I'm like, well, I don't need the outside world. I've created the world inside. And actually. But I think what we're all striving, and I definitely feel it in the last few years, is connection to community. And it's something when I think you grow a brand and you're very hardworking and you're juggling being a mother and life generally, but actually I'm really seeking community. So it was kind of completely the right timing that, you know, earlier this year we brought, last year, now we brought the whole brand into a different community, into a town. And that actually has been really special as well.

Yeah. Beautiful.

Yeah.

All right, let's dive into some rapid fire questions just to get the ball rolling. Whatever comes to mind.

Okay.

And then we'll. We'll chat more. So whoever wants to take this, you guys can decide.

I have to jump in.

Yeah, exactly. You can lead a. Actually, the first one's for both of you.

What does living bravely mean to each

of you in your own wellness journey?

I mean, for me, it's the small things and it has always been those things. I mean, I love a long term plan and mission, but I love the everyday, the ritual of the everyday. And for me, that's very much kind of the products and what they were meant to do and weave into our lives. But we always have a bit of a philosophy with the brand and I think internally with the team is that actually for some people, living bravely is running up mountains and swimming oceans, but actually for us, it can be connecting with your neighbour and it can just be doing something completely out of our comfort zone. And I think most founders and leaders, particularly women, we know that almost every day we're slightly being pushed outside of that safe space. And I had to really embrace that and know that that is what I was meant to do.

Beautiful. Yeah. You made me think. It actually does take bravery to connect with other people, especially as you grow older. I don't know if you guys agree, but, you know, friendship circles tend to get smaller and smaller. But now even learning about longevity, we know that connection and community is like is one of the greatest indicators for that.

So.

Absolutely.

That's what you made me think of.

She stole my answer.

Yeah.

It means that we're on the same wavelength. Yeah, same. I would say it's in ordinary and I think bravery can be so inspiring. Like you said, when people are climbing the mountains and they're running the marathons and they're doing brilliant acts of bravery. And for me, at the same time, it is those Ordinary acts of showing up for yourself every day, making sure that you do get your yoga session in, even though you're, you know, tired and trying to do the things that are going to resource you through life. And I think as a brand, we're always trying to see our products and our education as a way to empower and embrace and resource people who are trying to do things bravely. Because you can't be brave if you're tired and exhausted and undernourished. So, yeah, that's how I.

And sometimes being brave is just saying, I'm checking out. Yeah, I'm going to bed.

Yeah.

I'm not, you know, I'm going to say today.

Yeah.

And that's uncomfortable for some of us.

Yeah. I love that the bravery aspect is showing up for yourself every day. We never look at that through the lens of healing and wellness at all. That it does take such bravery to be able to do that.

It does, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that. One inch in healing practice you wish everyone would bring back into their lives.

So I feel like people are doing this now, which is just a dream, but I've been meditating for a really long time, and it was the game changer for me. It really did. And, you know, knowing everything that I know about nutrition and exercise and all those things were really working for me. But it was meditation that really made the difference. And just, you know, that 10 minutes a day of checking in, it's remarkable. So I wish the whole world would meditate because I think it would be in a different world if we did.

I agree. And everyone's going to want to know, do you do it in the morning? Do you do it at night? I do.

I do it in the morning and sometimes at night. So sometimes twice a day, but definitely in the morning. And I don't even get out of bed, which I know isn't like strictly how meditation is always done, but I do it as soon as I wake up. I sit, I have a drink of water, and I sit up in my bed. My little girl still crawls into my bedroom at night, so she's often lying across my lap. And I just have that 10 minutes and, oh, it makes such a difference for me.

I love it. My favorite meditation teacher taught me, rpm, rise, pee, meditate.

I'm gonna remember that one.

I'm not such a great meditator. I think my brain just starts whirling, and at some point very soon, I'm gonna learn how to be better at it, I've decided. But actually, I started in lockdown. And this is a bit more random, but I went, prior to lockdown, went on Covid shamanic drumming retreat. And I absolutely just fell in love with the drum beat and the vibrations through my body and the kind of tension that you can get out of your body by listening to it, but doing it. And I started having drumming lessons. And I've never been musical. I was not a musical kid at school. I didn't. I can't read music very well. I'm like, basic recorder, which is terrible. Terrible. I'm terrible at it. No one would want to hear that. And I found an absolute kind of joy for drumming. And by drumming and having no ability to think about anything else other than what my eyes are doing, trying to read them in my hands, my feet, it's so immersive for me. It's like everything. And so I think for me, that is my meditation. Oh, that absolutely is not for any of my family. You hear the noise? Yeah. For me, there's just. It's. I think a meditative state for me is an immersive moment where I'm very, very present. And that doesn't happen a lot in my day.

And the drumbeat is so healing. Sound is so healing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a double whammy.

And I love that you brought that up because I want everyone to know that meditation can look different for all of us. Yeah. All right. A daily ritual both of you swear by for energy and balance. I'm guessing your morning ritual. Sauna.

Yeah. I mean, I love that. And I think for me, early mornings are my jam. And if I. If I get up, I've always been a morning person, even for a very small child. So for me, it's just completely what I do. And I would rise with the sun and go to bed, you know, as the darkness comes in. So I get ahead of the day. And I love all, you know, doing those things first thing in the morning. That's my thing, definitely.

I would say doses of nature, definitely. And I think I see it as a different pattern across the week. So daily I'll just get quick doses of nature. I live quite by the sea, so I might go down to the seafront, taking a few deep breaths, or just step outside, look up at the sky. And then at the weekends, I spend longer stretches out in nature, and I find it so recharging. Just that moment you step into the woods and you have shoulders drop, and you can just feel completely different. Because I think those moments to recharge give me the Energy for the rest of the week and then whenever I can for the longer, longer stretches, I'll do some longer times in nature, like camping and those kind of things to really get back.

Isn't it crazy that we needed a study to prove to us that forest bathing is something?

I know. I mean, tree hugging is the best. Yeah. That's just like the best thing ever.

I know you feel it as soon as you step there, though, don't you? Your body knows it.

Be the person who hugs trees.

Yeah.

All right. Creatine for women. Overrated or underrated?

Oh, underrated. I think it was underrated and now people are understanding it. So I love that. I think it's really been a delight for us to see that women are taking hold of it.

We'll dive more into that. And last one, what's one wellness trend that that's actually making health more complicated than it needs to be?

Can I say all of them?

Yeah. Right. I am with you.

I think, I think trends in general have trends, hacks, whatever you want to call them, they have over complicated what wellness is. And you know, it's in our brand name. Wellness is ancient. It's been there for a really long time. And often our ancestors, the hunter gatherers, it was just part of their day. It was woven in. It wasn't something they had to go and find or do as a hobby or try to optimize or make a plan out of. It was just how they lived. And I think we forget that sometimes.

I agree. And I think wellness, and I really want listeners to own in on this. If wellness feels complicated for you, you're doing it wrong. Right. I think there's our ancestors, as you mentioned, it wasn't something that they tried to do. It was something that they were. They embodied it. And today in my work, working with clients, I've never worked with so many people, men and women who are anxious, who are waking up at 3 o' clock in the morning, who are doing all the right things, the checklist every single day, and yet they're w and they're tired. Right. So can you tell us and maybe from the lens of your consumers or the inspiration for the people that you communicate with in your communities, you know what's happening and what's really going on in the body that you wanted to create, products to support them with, modern

life is happening to them. And I think in every single one of our products that we create, we try and think about what our bodies are up against. So whether it's our true biome product, which is for gut health. We can see the gut is really under attack from all different angles. So trying to support the terrain of the gut is really important for us, for our creatines, it's all about the energy terrain. We want to really support that part of the body for our collagen, it's a structural terrain. So we're seeing all these kind of aspects of modern life that are really challenging for the body and trying to give people simplistic tools to be able to just support them alongside all the other things that they do. We're never saying it's a magic bullet. We want it to be part of their sort of allies and toolkits to support them through modern life.

So. Good. And I have to ask for you, Kate, before this all started, were you that person? Were you wired? Wired and tired? Were. Sure, yeah, for sure.

I mean, I started life as a city lawyer, then I was a media lawyer. So I worked on in television for a long time and lots of reality TV and like. But I think I've always been very driven and so I have to be, which is good and bad. You know, it means I achieve a lot. And I'm very proud of everything we've done as a team. But I think actually it's working with amazing people like Jo and her team. And now we have about 12 nutritionists and innovators and scientists in the brand. And I'm learning all the time. And actually it's. If there are days, and there are definitely days and weeks where the brand itself, the company, the running of that is relentless and I have to check in and check myself. And actually, Jo and her team are amazing at that. And we do, you know, before we have big meetings or we come together, we'll do breath work and. Or meditate. So we're kind of quite tribal about it. So we're all kind of leveled and we're all coming together in the right moment and. And that way, I think we create something quite beautiful and it's a real leveler for me to go, I'm quite frantic tendencies. Just calm down and just enjoy the moment.

And what we're achieving, what an incredible structure for a company, right? It's like if every CEO could just build that into the ecosystem. No matter what office you work in, just build that into the ecosystem. We know that everyone's suffering from stress. It's the new pandemic, right? And I think where I'm seeing also working with clients is that there's this inability to be consistent, right? Whether it's the stress that's overwhelming, life gets too busy. I hate the term falling off the wagon, because there is no wagon, but just the full embracing of every single day. So you've obviously created that culture within your ecosystem. Right. Which trickles down into the products as well. Why do you guys think that so many women struggle with consistency?

It's what we filled our days with, isn't it? It's not the things that give us health anymore. So I think we're trying to pile things on top of a very busy, full life already. And that's so difficult. And I think often we're trying to do it as brilliantly as we can because women being women, we love to do things well. And sometimes enough is okay. You know, I think a morning routine doesn't have to be this fully optimized. Three hours of, you know, amazing protocols. It can just be a quick 10 minutes here and there. And often you find when you're a busy working mum as well, that you do manage to fit in these little kind of movement snacks and 10 minutes meditation, the things that kind of get you through. And I think consistency can be really, really difficult when you want things to be just so, just perfect, just right.

And I think we. We always talk so much, or we're talk too about it. It's balanced. And I'm a bit like Ivan. That just kind of feels like a challenge as a word. And then I've heard so many more people recently talk about blending, and I thought that is such a more sympathetic and understanding word to use in our lives. And so that's something that I'm trying to do a lot more, is how I blend my life. I love that I manage it that way. And rather than achieve balance, which is probably out of reach every single day, definitely.

I love that we're definitely in an era. I think we are catching on to the concepts that we're talking about today. But for many of us, I know for me specifically, hyper vigilance was my comfort zone. Doing more, showing up as the best, doing things fast, getting to the top. And, you know, a lot of people are talking about trauma. It's our internal traumas that we're ready to let go of, which is a beautiful thing. But do you feel within you there's like a resonance of the way that you think you should be versus a knowing of, I don't have to do that anymore. Yeah. So this is why. And just speaking with both of you, seeking environments or cultures or communities that remind you of being that Way, I think is so key because I think it's going to be a while before corporate America or, you know, corporate aspects of every part of the world really touch into that. Right. It's going to take a lot of time.

I mean, I think. I think you're completely right, actually. And for me, some of that is age and shifting into just feeling, becoming the person I probably was always meant to be, or being more comfortable with that person who is not at all perfect in any way, shape or form. And we were talking, the brand, about progression over perfection, which I really stand by. And I think that's why the brand moves forward. So I think these are kind of key things, but I think, again, it comes back, back to. I've probably created my own brands because I wanted my. I wanted. Well, it probably starts with control, Right. Probably because I wanted to control my environment. But with 160 people, mostly women, you can't control that.

Yeah. There's no way.

And thank God.

Right?

Thank God, because I have to learn and I have to learn to give and nurture and be. Do that with grace and generosity. And I'm. I'm learning all the time from other amazing, beautiful women in my business. And I'm very grateful for that.

I think that's such a beautiful part of our business, actually, is that, you know, in wellness in general, it's quite individualized. You can see people on their own a lot of the time. Even on social media, there's people on their own doing a yoga class. And our brand is like how we work together. We're such a community. We're such, like, this brilliant band of women. And there's a few men as well, who we've allowed in. It really does feel like community. And just banding off other people's ideas and inspiring each other, it's pretty special.

But I feel like that's how we're meant to operate all along.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

My community has heard me joke. I feel like I would have been the witch in the village with the teas and the herbs going in.

Love the witch.

And actually what they call my team.

Yeah, you can come and join us anytime.

It's really enticing, I'm not gonna lie.

Yeah, yeah.

So I guess the next question is, let's go into the brand. So as a reminder for everyone listening, when I ever showcase a brand, if they see me, if you see me talking about a product or a specific supplement or something, it's because I've researched the founders, where the products are made, how they are Made the intention behind them and also efficacy, my use and my love for them. And I intentionally waited a little bit to kind of connect with you guys because I, I wanted to use your products and I love them, I love them and I see the formulations and I really see the attention to the diversity of ingredients that you use to work as cofactors that bring synergy to the body instead of these like mono ingredients that so many people, you know, especially on social media. Now we're catching onto singular ingredients and we're buying them in bulk and we think that they're going to heal us and it's just another fad and marketing is really tapping into that. But you guys are focusing on synergy. So tell me about that. And how did you know as a founder to really focus on how the body works synergistically?

I mean, my background is not nutritional and so actually it became really important. I knew the brand I wanted to create and I knew the values and the mission that I wanted to drive forward. And one of the things for me was putting out a brand that I was so proud of. I mean, not only visually, but also the quality of the ingredients, sustainable nature, the provenance of where we source from. And actually that meant building out my team really fast in terms of the nutritionists, the innovators, the scientists, the educators. And so for me, that whole moment came together. I think there were some key learnings that I had to get on board with very quickly, but it was bringing the experts into the room and experts who shared my value system and shared my love and passion of putting something out there that was completely therapeutic and actually not listening to the trends at all. We listen to the science, we dig into that, you know, an awful amount and we're really kind of playing with that. But, but mostly we're looking at what has worked for centuries and centuries. And, and I think naturally then that comes with having products that absolutely have no, like fillers or additives or sweeteners and preservatives and, and we still stand by that in every single product. And we blend everything in house. And they're all proprietorial. We don't farm them out to anyone. We take all that responsibility onto ourselves.

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Can you shed a bit more? Let's hover on this for a little bit because I think this is important. We're living in the wild west of supplements right now and the consumer will again see these trending items or brands with a shitload of money pump a lot of cash behind something specifically. And we don't know about sourcing, we don't know where the ingred, we don't know about formulations, we don't know about the intention that goes behind it. So can you tell us a little bit about sourcing of ingredients and stuff like that as well?

Yeah, I mean very early on it was all about the balance of the people, purpose, planet and we became a B Corp very early into our journey and we're one of the highest scoring B corp wellness brands in the world, which we're really proud of and we stand by and we want to just keep beating our record like every year, like what can we do? So the sustainability and the sourcing was just, just so vital to us to actually bring the products to the market in therapeutic amounts that was so beneficial to individuals, but also like use organic whenever that is possible within the ingredients that we're researching and finding. For example, we have a very beautiful bovine collagen, but we Made sure it was EU sourced, so it's not actually pumped with any antibiotics or hormones because that's been regulated within the EU since 1999. And we really wanted to bring out a fish, marine collagen, but actually I wasn't going to do that. So we could find a wild caught, not farmed, had to be from sustainable stock. So we now have that. So we've launched wild collagen which essentially is sourced from Alaskan pollock. So we've come over to your shores. And also white Atlantic, North Atlantic cod and they're from MSC stock, so which is Marine Stewardship Council. And that is just vital to us. If we can't have that certification from third party that is assuring that we're not doing harm back to the planet, then we just won't launch the product. And that intention is vital to our supply chain.

I think it's important for all of us as consumers to really demand that this is a new standard for brands and we talk about controlling with our dollar in the food industry to not pay the pockets of these big moguls who are just pumping garbage out there. But I think we need to do the same for supplement brand. And this is where like I just, I want you guys to go viral for that reason.

It's true. Every decision counts in what we make. There's so many tidy decisions that people would never understand or never know that we're making all the time. But every ingredient that we choose, we've looked deeply into the evidence behind them in terms of nutritional evidence, but also the supply. We look into everything from our packaging and sourcing of that and how we're shipping everything. There's so many tiny details that are all interwoven into each product that we bring to market. And I think that's one of the. You can, you can actually feel it when you receive a product from ancient and brave. There's all these different decisions that have been made by multiple different people. It's just so much care put into each one.

I love that you're the science brain and you're talking about the energy behind a product and how that matters for the consumer, which is so key.

But I mean the attention to you. We're obsessed.

We are.

And we will obsess and obsess us about every tiny thing because it's so important. And we know that, you know, we want to be the brand that shares your value system as a consumer. And we know that if, if we can do that with and, and talk the right language and the language is so important to us for our consumer, then we become such a brand that you can trust and then hopefully you become a lifelong fan, not just a consumer.

I love it so much. One of my greatest pet peeves on the other side of things is right now the lens of aging, of longevity, of ideal weight, of ideal muscle mass. Everything is fear based, fear mongering. Now women are doing these things. We're reaching for these accolades that are based on numbers that don't even have to do with us or physiology or our genetics or our backgrounds or the cycle of life that we're in. It's all fear based. And for you, I know that that part of your company philosophy is living bravely.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit about that intention and how that leads into the plot, the product as well.

Yeah. Well, I can talk about it from a community perspective and Jo, maybe you want to do it from a health one, but for us that living bravely is just absolutely vital for the communication. We've always started with something called the brave lifestyle, which is how you move within your day and how you get out there. And it's, it is absolutely all about movement. And one of the things that we've just launched is something called the Brave Endeavor, which we're so excited about. And we're actually kind of running it as a competition. And what we want to do is challenge everyone in their everyday to do. Is there something that you've always wanted to do and you've maybe never found the time or the motivation or perhaps had the nutritional support or. We're offering some money, putting money behind it and there's. Within the UK there's going to be five. You can be single or with a group and actually we start with one. And there's this group of Welsh women who are larger than life, incredibly fun. Some of them can't really even swim. And in two years they're going to swim the English Channel. So they're going to swim from England to France and they'll do it as a relay. So they're doing it as a team and they're incredibly supportive. And as a brand we've got completely behind them and we're doing filming. Films show that in Inspirational Journey. But we're now looking for four other groups or single people who want to go on their own journey and it could be anything that pushes them out of their everyday. And if we can offer that support as a brand and offer it to our community, then that for me is like the best thing we're ever going to do as a brand and how we show up.

I have goosebumps everywhere. How about this? Even hearing you speak about it, you guys obviously, as women were very aware of the masculine approach of doing hard things and going hard hardcore. And even with their own physiology, right. Diets and restriction and do something that scares you, feel the fear and do it anyway. I think what you're speaking about is having bravery and courage as something that feels inspiring. And you said something about really tuning into something that you've always wanted to do. Right. That's very different. It's not an accolade of something else or media or society or your boss. It's something within. Okay, let's put that out as a call to action for people to listen to because is. That's really exciting.

Is there anything you want to.

Well, I, I was just going to say that in terms of that one, with the Brave endeavor, it's about support, right? So it isn't just about sort of push, push, push, hustle, hustle, hustle. It's putting the support around people. And that is what our brand is all about all the time. So whatever brave looks like to you, however you want to be or live your life, I think I. I truly believe that whatever your purpose is, is just for you to be yourself.

Right.

And so if you can support that, if we can encourage that and bring that out of people with fully resourced, fully nourished, fully, you know, empowered people, then that's. We've totally done our job there.

And also, you know, people are doing these things on their own or may be, you know, very singular or perhaps even quite lonely, I think, to have a community behind them. If we can bring that, that in a very nurturing, supportive way, which I think we do do as a very well actually as a brand, then, you know, that's just thrilling, really. For me, as a founder, I've had

quite a few Eastern medicine doctors come on, highly intelligent, who they really remind us of the fact that ancient cultures, they never separated physical healing from our emotional body, from our environment, from our spiritual body even. And yet this is something that we look at singular pieces on instead of the integration that happens between all of that. Why do you think that we've lost that? And do you feel, obviously you were on this trend before it became a trend, what called you to bring that integration back?

God, that's such a good question. I think, I think I must. I like to think that instinctively I. I felt like something was missing, but there's also a moment of going, I Think as a brand, like what Brands resonated with me, and they were always ones that punched me in the heart. And I think that's where it came from. What listening back to what instinctively feels right and gentle and one size doesn't fit all and that we can be our own selves. And I think coming from a very corporate, male, hierarchical community and work life, I just was searching for something completely different. And so for me, it just felt very obvious. Really. That makes sense?

Absolutely. For my listeners. They've probably heard me say this a million times. We've talked about integrative healthcare for so long, but we're not actually practicing it. And. And what I was thinking about, like, okay, maybe this isn't going to happen through the medical system because we're still a long way from there, but if it can happen through brands and storytelling, as you're doing today, maybe we just have to kind of reverse engineer how it's going to happen, which feels really great. And hearing you guys speak about not only the rituals that you have within, you know, within the office and in your community. Ritual is a word that I really hold deeply to my heart.

Heart.

I always say that habits come and go, routines can come and go, but if you ritualize something, it becomes you. You fall so deeply in love with it. And neuroscience, on the other hand, also is proving that if you have a practice that's rooted with meaning and with intention, then you're more likely to stick with it for the rest of your life. So can you talk to us a little bit about why you chose ritual over routines? Were you reading my mind?

Yeah, it just made absolute sense. And this the kind of the rise and the rest. And for us, like, what products work in the right moments for our body and what we need at different times of the day or even different days of the year. But I think also what came from that was actually the ritual has to kind of start from the moment that you see the brand. So the storytelling, as you mentioned, it's just so important to us, like, almost far more than the actual kind of products, because we want to tell you, we want to give you the understanding of what you're about to take and put into your body. We want you to touch the packaging and open it and know that it was made with absolute kind of love and care and that the packaging is recyclable and, you know, and that the ingredients are absolutely the best that we can bring to the market. And I think part of the everyday ritual is also us understanding, blending the taste and flavor so that health and wellness didn't become a hardship. That actually it's something you could have as whole foods in your everyday life. And we can present it in beautiful packaging and nice, convenient, you know, jars. But actually what we're doing is giving you great nutrients to kind of help you thrive to the best of your ability through the day. And, and I think, you know, even just having small touches that we bring to the brand, which is just things like having our own ritual, ritual scoop. And the ritual scoop is very popular in the UK and it's just kind of that moment of pause, I think when you take the ingredients that we really, really encourage and we deeply believe in.

That's a great perspective, a moment of pause because you really do get that. I'll talk about some of my favorites in a little bit, but you really do get that when you're using your products because they're intentional around supporting the system. So let's dive into, let's talk about collagen first maybe. Right. Something that is trend worthy. There's a lot of collagen supplements out there with a lot of really big claims. But do you want to take us through the background of the benefits of collagen within the body and why someone would choose your collagen?

Sure. So collagen within the body is this structural protein. It's the most abundant protein in the body. So we find it everywhere from our skin, hair, nails, which is what it's best for, known for, but also in our gut, in our joints, in our eyeballs. Anything that needs a bit of structure normally has some collagen there. And as we age, we do naturally just lose a bit of collagen kind of declines as we go. But if we're talking about ancient wisdom, ancestral health, we would have always eaten collagen within our diets. It's in those kind of fattier cuts of meat. When you've got joint meat and things like that and you're making bone, broth, broth. But in our modern diets we tend to discard those cuts of meat now or people are moving away from meat altogether. So we've got a bit of a lack of collagen within our diets. Modern life also doesn't support collagen production very well. So pollution, stress, sugars, alcohol, all these things also have an effect on our collagen levels. So having a collagen supplement for us was a really great simple way, which was linked to our ancestral health, that we could bring in some a structural support to the body. And our collagens are just type one collagen. And we've got, like Kate said, MSC Certified Marine collagen or a bovine collagen, meticulously sourced. Because it's so important, wherever you're gaining that collagen from, it has to be the best of the best. It's easy to take, odourless, tasteless, dissolves, completely super simple to fit into your daily routine. So for me, it's just such a. A simplistic, easy ritual to add into your day. It's also quite joyful, I think, when you're making a coffee or whatever your drink is and adding in a scoop, it just becomes, I don't know, part of the apothecary moment, which I love.

My husband and I use the collagen in our coffee first thing in the morning. It blends into nothing. There's no bitter aftertaste or anything like that. And I think collagen deserves a bit of the hype, as long as the sourcing, as you mentioned, is there. There are of lots, lots of studies now that back it up. And there's lots of women who will also back up feeling a noticeable difference, whether that's through their skin or through elastin. I wish it was a lot more drastic, but it's more subtle over time.

I think all the best things are, honestly. And, you know, to that point as well, we've made sure that our collagen is clinically tested already, but we invested in our own clinical trial as well, a randomized, controlled clinical trial, the absolute gold standard, to ensure that it was as efficacious we believed it to be.

Yeah, but I think your point about sourcing is absolutely key, and that's the education process that we continue to do. And. And obviously there's a lot of collagen in the marketplace and you don't necessarily have to take ours, but I think what you've got to do is just research what you're taking, the provenance of it, and sometimes when it's blended with other things, it's blended because maybe the quality, not every time, but maybe the quality just isn't there. And therefore, actually there's just kind of a mask that's going on within that product. So just be aware of that and ask the right question.

Ew. So don't. For those in the us, don't go to cvs. Yeah. Don't go there for your supplements, especially for your collagen. And I think, you know, collagen is one of those things. It's an entryway that I think a lot of women will come to for beauty. But to your point, there's such a deeper resonance within the body when we think about our fascia or within our gut and all the rest our of research that's emerging with healing the gut microbiome and in nutrition I would say that 90% if not more of the people that I work with on year to year basis we have major gut inflammation as a result of our modern world or our food system or environmental toxins or poor water quality. So when we think about collagen healing the connective tissue within what a great everyday staple for long term resilience of the body as well.

For me it can was joint health. I when I first started taking collagen I had a really dodgy knee. I could, I love to exercise, I love to move my body and my knee was just not letting me do what I wanted to do anymore. And I really noticed the difference in supporting my, you know, my body structurally with collagen just gave me that extra bit of life back in my knee. And you know, it doesn't always have to be, you know, your skin health. It's the first port of call. I think often people come to but notice the difference throughout their whole body body.

And I'm assuming you were intentional about a powder form versus a capsule form.

We are intentional about powder mostly for many of our products because you get to have that ritualized moment, you know, as nutrients are supposed to be taken within foods and drinks. It makes sense for the majority of our products to be in a powder form. Some of them are in capsule form when it's really challenging. Like we've got a type 2 collagen which is very challenging flavor got ashwagandho it which is just a bit more potent within its capsule dose. But for the majority, you know, we want to make sure people can take their time, make a drink, stack their products a little bit if they want to as well. Just make it a little bit more kind of personalized. And for our collagen that was especially true. We didn't want to add a vitamin C for example, which we know is very popular to do because that would change the flavor. We'd have to add a preservative or an additive. So we wanted to keep that particular one really simple.

Oh, that's a good point. So eat a kiwi.

Yeah, well totally. We are still a food first brand, right? We still believe in the power of nutrition and eating really well. And we would hope that people are having fruits and vegetables and it's really important to do that too. And the collagens alongside that, because collagen's just not as easy to get in our diet as maybe a kiwi. You know, we're not all boiling bones every day. That's a tough one.

That's a good one point. Yeah. So for listeners, the reason why Jo's mentioning that is it can be a CO factor. Right. For absorbability. And if you're taking it for skin health, then focus on food first with the collagen. That's really key. Is there the same protein craze that's happening in the UK as there is here?

It's definitely taking off. And we as a brand actually have just launched our first protein.

There's my question.

Not in the US right now, but. But it's brave ancestral protein.

Beautiful.

So, I mean, Jo can speak to this a lot more, but we've gone down very much a kind of whole animal route again.

We've used a beef protein isolate, we've used our collagen. We've also got beef organs in there alongside a really beautiful organic raw cacao baobab. We've got cinnamon in there, we've got actazin, which helps you absorb the protein a little bit better. So it's a really brilliant all rounder, kind of a more of a top up your day rather than a big, you know, protein load. We don't want to overload the body and that's never our intention as a brand. It's kind of those little additions that you can add in.

Yeah. Beautiful.

And again, we worked a very long time on making that because those are challenging flavors. Yeah. In some of those ingredients. And actually we've worked very hard to kind of balance that out and make sure that what you were going to get was a very nutritious but very delicious, delicious cacao drink. So, yeah, it's a great product.

Yeah. I think the protein craze is going to be around for a while and I think it's actually valid, especially through the longevity lens. But a lot of people just their digestion is not functioning so they're not absorbing the protein that they're taking. There's also a big vegan movement as well and for those people, they're deficient in amino acids that help them absorb or I've worked with people who actually will focus on collagen, but it doesn't give you the full spectrum of amino acids that you need to support muscle synthesis. So that's why I wanted to ask about that. And is there ever a discussion I need to ask for my vegetarians and vegans out there. Have you talked about creating a vegan product?

We, I mean, a lot of our product range is vegan.

Yeah.

Outside of the animal. And we actually have a vegan collagen where we set up to mimic the amino acid profile of the animal. I think we love it. It's got some incredible ingredients in there and very tart raspberry flavor to it. But it's always going to be a little bit more challenging because, because of the ingredients, the nature of the amino acids mean that you, you definitely do have to kind of bring other flavors to the party if you want to really enjoy that every single day.

It really does. It's medicinal at that point. Right. And yeah, these all used to be supplements. They're. They're supplements. They're meant to supplement our diet. So we have to, we have to really consider that which is powerful. So let's think about now creatine, another one of your products that I love. I actually take one of your creatine sachets before every podcast.

Great. What a good idea.

Energy, brain function. And I still think there's a bit of a stigma for women around taking creatine for fear of bulking up or taking a low quality creatine, which is often brought on water retention and stuff like that. So share with us a little about the formulation of the creatine.

Yeah, I mean, we are so happy that creatine is just becoming more mainstream and accepted as well, because we have so much to gain from taking creatine and not, as you said, not just from our muscles, which I think are so important and often underrated, especially for women. We don't always understand the importance of our muscle beyond strength, but which are things like our metabolic health, our energy levels, our immune system, but also for your brain health and how creatine can support brain function. It could support immune system function. So it's brilliant because it's a really amazing, easy product to be able to take every day. We wanted to do our own ancient and brave twist, which we like to do with every product as well, which was to add some other ingredients. So we've added taurine in there for, again, it's become a bit of a longevity amino acid, but for that antioxidant profile we thought was really important. And I think actually for me, the taurine is where I really feel the difference in energy as well. Yeah, you feel the same.

Definitely.

And I feel, I let's hover on that because I feel like if the lens of creatine took a break from muscle and was emphasized on energy production and hormonal health, the buy in would be there for women because, you know, I think every listener would probably say that they could benefit with a little bit more energy throughout the day, a little bit more mental focus or a brain boost in the afternoon. And this is such a great supplement and the studies are coming out specifically for women as well, which is so powerful.

And I see it as a performance helper. Right. And performance, I don't mean just in the gym or if you're doing something brave or you're doing a podcast. It can be any type of daily performance. You might need to show up for a meeting with all your brain switched on. It's that daily performance that it can really support with and give you the energy for. So we've also added a bit of vitamin D in there and a bit of magnesium as well, just to really support, as you said, the co factors of synergy that really makes the creatine work better.

I love it. Another product that ties into energy and function and how you feel, which for me was the line and hook for your brand. And this podcast is not intended to be like a push for sensitive products, but like, I genuinely feel the difference and it's a ritual that I look forward to every single night. So. So for your true nightcap, for all of my ginger lovers out there, just order this asap. So this has become a nightly ritual for myself. I like it hot. I also like it at room temperature. And the ingredient lineup, you put everything in it that I would want in a nighttime supplement.

I love that.

Which is just brilliant. And I don't have to take a capsule, which I absolutely love. So can you talk to us about true nightcap?

I'm so happy that you know what? True nightcap. And it's really hard for me to say because each of the products are like, like our product babies. And I won't want to choose a favorite.

Yeah, exactly.

It's my secret favorite too. And I also have a nightly ritual. And if I don't have my nightcap at home, I start to panic a little bit because it's such a comfort for me now. But in terms of the ingredients, what we didn't want to do with our nightcap formula, but with a sleep sort of formula, is bring anything that was too sedative. So a lot of formulations out there, they're using quite strong sedative herbs, which can be really powerful. But we wanted to set the body up in the best possible way with the nutrients it would need for restorative sleep. So we've added things like the glycine in there which can help to lower your body temperature, bring you into a really gentle sleep. And then we've got the magnesium which is a bit of a no brainer for a sleep supplement. We've got the zinc in there to support the cognitive health but also your immune system as you sleep to help repair. We've got the vitamin C and essentially that was put in there for adrenal support. But actually the vitamin, vitamin C, ginger and zinc combo are also very immune supportive too. The myo inositol just to support that gentle blood sugar sugar balance as you sleep, which can be an issue for people who wake up during the night. We've got some choline in there as well for that circadian rhythm support. And as you mentioned, the ginger which is a really punchy ginger and if you're having it in the evening it can really settle the digestive system. So I just think it's a big win.

Yeah, I think it's great. After a meal it feels so soothing and therapeutic. I it's really comforting. Yeah. And I feel like the glycine is one ingredient. If anyone's listening who has an issue falling asleep or staying asleep it this is worth a shot. There was a noticeable difference the first night that I took it. So yeah, thank you for that. I've never pitched so many products we made it to seriously. I truly do love them. All right, let's talk a little bit about shifting back into stress and hormonal imbalance and burnout and those things that are happening when we think about citizen science that you launched. Can you share a little bit more about that?

We do a whole inner circle now so we reached out to our community just to see who would love to participate and be part of this education process with us. And so before we launch, launch any product now, we will go out to the community again and generally pick between about 30 to 100 people and go through depends, doesn't it about a three month testing process in order to get lots of feedback and you know, really see the results before we launch that product. And we've just done one with Biome. Do you want to talk about that one?

Well, the results are still coming through for Biome because we did a full gut test for each product. So for each sort of participant I should say so we sent our true Biome to people to trial out. And we also sent them a GUT health test at the beginning and then at the end to measure their markers. So we're still sort of working through the data, but they're really, really pleasing, and mostly people could find it really easy to use. They really notice it, a difference in their digestion quite early on as well. And we're seeing some really incredible markers. So, yeah, as soon as that's out, we'll be able to share it more widely. But to Kate's point, we do this citizen science test with every product that we're bringing out now. So we have this real data that's come to life every time that there's a new product, and we can really speak authentically about how you might feel.

Yeah, I wanted to bring that up because you're turning research into real life and you're taking symptoms that. That, let's call it, the majority of the population is suffering from. And I think by having the testimonial behind it that way as well, is something that speaks so loudly for a brand.

I think as a brand, though, we also just, you know, communicating and keeping that constant dialogue with the people that we really care about, which is our consumers, and I think getting feedback, you know, and if something is, you know, off or doesn't feel quite right or this improvements that we can make, we'll do it, you know, so we want that constant kind of communication and. And hearing back about what people feel and think and how they want to better their bodies are benefiting with the products.

So beautiful.

Yeah, it's really important.

So for our listeners who, you know, let's just say they're women who are feeling overwhelmed or they're in the midst of their burnout and they're sick and tired of all the noise that is out there, what's something that you would reconnect them with? What's one practice that you would say to come home to. To kind of get them regrouped. So I would say coming home,

I would say I. Again, it's all about simplicity. And I would really try and encourage people to help, to think about how we might have once lived and then try and just bring that into their modern day in some way. We don't have to go back in time. But even, you know, if we think about how our ancestors would have risen in the morning, it would have been a slow, purposeful morning, might be quite quiet. There would have been some kind of sunrise ritual. Our day, like daytime, would have been woven in with some movement and challenge because we were meant to hunt and gather and maybe run from something. And then our evening was all about integration, coming back to the camp, sharing food, sharing conversation, closing the circle. And I think often we've run at the day just like machines. And we're trying to see things in this very linear, a kind of modern perspective when it's supposed to be this beautiful cyclical motion. Everything in nature and within us works in cycles. So I would really encourage people to just take a step back, think about how our bodies have always understood how to live and try and apply it just a little bit. Whether that's a little bit of extra sunlight a day or whether you manage to put your work away for a couple of hours before you go to sleep. Just close the day a little bit earlier. Just a little, little moment that might bring you back to how things once were.

The micro moments. Okay, what about you? So for maybe the female founders listening or, you know, the. The CEOs of their house, the. The moms that are feeling stressed and overwhelmed, obviously you're intentional about building foundations.

Absolutely. I mean, again, I want to stress that there is. I've never always got this wrong. Great. And I think I'm definitely a work in progress, and anyone who's founding their business will know that. And I think again, for me, it's about blending rather than actual kind of specific balance. But I think for me, it's definitely around knowing that you can't achieve everything. And they're very simple things that I do in my life because I want to do everything to the best of my ability every single day.

And.

And I'm a big list maker, and that has actually just calms my brain. And so actually, I think there's a whole thing about you really, you know, you don't achieve as much in a day, and then you kind of overachieve in the week if you set yourself that list. And I think there's just like a calmness to that. So I will kind of plan out the things that I want to achieve as a founder or the tasks or, you know, the products that we want to bring to the market. But I will do it over a longer stretch. And I think that just gives me permission to actually get things wrong and retry them. And that's so essential. And it also gives me permission to kind of react to what the day is doing and not feel frantic or stressed about the new challenges or. Because there's always challenges. Every day we're problem solvers as entrepreneurs. Like, every single day, you're just problem solving as a CEO, go. It's not that glamorous. And I think what you've got to do is you've got to anticipate that, otherwise that actually will just add the stress into your life. And so just by stretching some of my role or stretching some of my jobs over a much longer period, actually, it keeps me very calm, very grounded, and I still achieve them.

So it truly is the lens at which you look at something. Right. Because I think when you say, you know, writing a to do list or writing down everything that you have to do can feel really a type.

Yeah.

Right. And committal. No, but you said it brings you a sense of calm. Yeah, Right. And this is why I love different perspectives. It's like if you find somebody who just takes ownership, whatever lens it is that you look at something through, if it makes you feel calm, then own what that is for you. Right. I think it's beautiful.

You know, if you are that type, which I probably am, it's just whirling around your head anyway, and we can pretend that we're not going to do that, but actually, I think just to kind of divulge that onto the page and sit with it, actually, there's. There's real power in that for me, and there's real calmness and. And that's something that I. I have continued to embrace and just to manage the day and. And just kind of still try and live my best life.

Beautiful. Can I ask you both, when we think about. When you both think about the lens of longevity, how does it make you feel when you put it through the lens of ancient and brave? What is the intention behind longevity? So.

So for me, one full podcast. Yeah. Yeah, I. I can completely understand the. The want to live a long, healthy life. I really, you know, of course we do. And at the same time, my concern is that with how the wellness world is going, how many protocols and G and products that are coming into our lives, we're not making room to live anymore. We're just doing the wellness stuff. And, you know, I hear about these really long protocols or people will do wellness for a hobby or it becomes part of who they are. Where's the room for spontaneity and silliness and that connection, or the extra glass of wine with a friend and, you know, all these parts that make life messy and fun. That's the point in it. All right. So I think my concern is not with, you know, longevity as a. As a. I think it's really cool. Of course you want to live a healthy, long Life, but you've got to live. And I think you can't do just wellness. That isn't what life is. It's about exploring and adventure and connection and rest and quiet. There's, there's all aspects of a colourful life and I would really not want people to miss out because they're too busy with the protocol.

Oh God, I love it. I love that.

I'm just gonna take that.

I know, exactly, repeat that.

I love.

I mean, I mean just to echo that. I feel exactly the same. Just like you. Live well. Live with, you know, passion and humility and grace and I think just be as healthy as I can, but absolutely kind of grasping every opportunity and thriving within life and loving with life. And it's like you said, if we did everything we're kind of sort of meant to do, whether it's on your to do list or not, not, there'll be no time for anything else, you know, and it's, it's brilliant to carve out some time but I think there are limits to it as well.

Yeah. I often say that your healing journey, the ones that win it at health and wellness and healing and feeling good, they've turned it into a spirit spiritual journey. And this isn't necessarily about God or consciousness. It's really just falling in love with the fact that we're here having one experience.

Right.

And to make the most out of it. And it's so easy to drown in overwhelm and news and the fear around aging and longevity. Which is why I wanted to ask this question and instead mirror the beauty that exists every day and companies that mirror this to their employees and push it out into the world and put up beautiful challenges as well. So I'm so happy that I found you. I'm so happy at everything that you shared today. Thank you. Can you both tell me something that you're most excited about in the future?

I mean we are right now almost today, I think launching our first pop up shop in la. Incredible. And just being here in the last few days and meeting a very like minded community of women has just been an absolute kind of pinch me moment and so exciting. And I just going to your point about Nightcap, I think every single conversation we've been having is about people love to share their bedtime routines which I also really enjoy, like what everyone's up to. And so right now for us as a brand and for myself, it's an absolute kind of pinch me moment. And what a sort of privilege to be here and be part of this community and absolutely loving it and just thriving and enjoying every day.

Beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I'm going to link out everything. Notes please Continue to share within your brand the challenges and community that you want to attract. We are so aligned. I'm so grateful to meet you and to have you here and I can't wait to have you back.

Thanks for being so much.