Kickstarter Case Studies and Q&A Livestream

Hey everyone!

Hi again! Hi, we're back, we're back and huffing and puffing, both of us, I think, because like that was not a long enough break.

Yeah, I ran up like 3 flights of stairs. So, so, um, in this— so we're about to welcome Kelly on, um, Kelly Brackenhoff, and she is a children's book author We're just going to talk to her about Kickstarter like we have been with everybody else. So did you want to say anything before we do that? Welcome to the live stream, everyone.

Welcome to the live stream.

Make sure you comment.

Please leave a comment. Otherwise, yeah, we're just going to chit chat with Kelly, who's awesome and is in our program.

All right, let's bring Kelly along. For the ride. Hello, Kelly. Hi, how's it going?

Good.

So we got you dark here.

What's up with that?

I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, I have, I have a whole like ring light system on mine, so yeah, I do too.

Maybe I'll have to turn my ring light on. I hate my ring light because it blares in my face, but there's a time and a place, right?

Sure.

They are very bright.

Well, while you're doing that, do you want to intro yourself and like talk a little bit about your book and your campaign?

Yeah.

Hi everybody. Thanks you guys for asking me to come on.

Yeah. Yeah.

So the campaign that you can see on the screen is the third book in my children's picture book series. I had always just published an ebook and paperback before, and I wanted to— after talking to Russell at 20 Books in Vegas and joining the sprint group, I was trying really hard to figure out what I wanted to do that was going to be special. And so I ended up doing hardcover, hardcover books. I had an offset printer in my hometown make them, and it came out amazing. And so I was kind of just a new way to offer an extra thing, an extra layer, I guess, of something I had never tried before. I was completely new to Kickstarter when I went to 20 Books in November. I had really— I'd heard of Kickstarter, but I had no idea what it was. I really didn't think I would ever need it, want it, use it. And here I am now, and I've— I have like plans for, I don't know, 4 or 5 more projects in the next couple of years. So yes, you completely converted me, you guys.

Wow, that's awesome.

That's not an uncommon story we heard at 2015.

So I have like a little thing I wanted to do, and I totally forgot to grab the thing for this, but I actually received your stuff, Kelly. And so I haven't unboxed it yet, so I wanted to go downstairs and grab it and unbox it live. That would be so cool. Yeah, go for it. Do you want to chat for a minute or two? Okay, cool.

We'll talk amongst ourselves.

Yeah. So Kelly, when we met at 20 Books, it was one of those moments where I opened your book and I was like, holy shit, this is so good. And so it was really, it was really interesting to watch this campaign come together because, like, you started with trying to make this, like, a regular kids' book campaign, and then you really turned it into, like, what made it special in the— so I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the evolution of the page and how it all came together.

Yeah, thank you. My first idea was I have always wanted to have a play plush toy. Um, I, I had already had this book in progress. It was already completely finished, completely illustrated, and I was even going to publish it last fall. And then when I started thinking about doing the Kickstarter and then joined your group, I decided to postpone the release date and to do the Kickstarter first. But I had thought that I wanted to also do a plush toy, so I think my first project, uh, included the hardcovers and the other books. And I was like, oh, and I really want to do a plush toy. And you were like, slow down, slow down. So you and Monica talked me off the ledge where I was going to ask for tons and tons of money and try to do way too many things. I really think that the thing that I got the most from you guys was doing this whole process. It's been 3 years since I did my first book, and I've been on lots of podcasts. I've done lots of articles. I've done all kinds of things. Like you said, when people open up the book, they're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. But it's getting people to me and to open the book first. That's been the hard part. But sitting down and writing out the story just solidified my why of why I'm doing this. And it's been like a totally amazing— I can articulate it so much better than I could 6 months ago, to the point where I'm like actually thinking of more things to do along this line because of like your reaction. Because when you open it up, you are just like, oh my gosh, there's sign language in here! You can learn sign language from a picture book! This is the coolest thing ever! And your enthusiasm was just so infectious.

I mean, I was really, uh, we look for my, uh, my, uh, my niece has learning delay, and so we look, we're looking for this kind of stuff all the time. So to have it was just like, I was like, we, me and my sister were probably just talking about this maybe 2 weeks before about how there's just not enough stuff. And I was like, oh my God, there's stuff, it's stuff, it's this exact thing that we were looking for. So Monica, I see you, uh, yeah, you might have a— you have a package.

Yeah, nice. Look cool, my package. Let me go this way. Okay, I covered up the addresses, um, and I also undid the tape. So let's see what's inside. All right, cool. So I have a 2-year-old, um, so I'm pretty excited about this. All right, uh, and I don't even remember which tier I backed up, but This is really cute, I like it. Oh, I got some fun stuff inside. So I think that's what's cool about Kickstarter is just like how much, like, I don't know, it just always comes with like cute little stuff. So I got stickers, a couple of stickers, the sticker right here. All right, um, this one Duke and the Deaf Dog ASL.

That one can go on like a water bottle. It's one of those vinyl stickers.

Oh, I feel that. Yeah, it feels different. That's very cool. Cool. Well, you know, my son has a water bottle, so he might actually stick it there. Oh man, that's so funny. Oh, I remember we, um, I saw the little whoopee cushion as well. Yeah, yeah. All right, um, and then so there's that. There's a bookmark. I'm, I'm not gonna give this to my child because it will destroy it in like 10 seconds.

Yes, definitely.

Um, this, this is cute. Oh, it's a postcard. Was this your special make?

That was the special make 100 print. Yeah, yeah. So, oh, and it's got a couple signs on there. It has the sign for friend and share.

Oh, that's so cute. Yeah, and he's, he's definitely learning about that. So yeah, he's an only child still, so he's learning.

It's great at that age how they can, um— I have a couple of little grandkids that are like 1 and 2 years old, and their ability— like, they have want to say so many things, but their ability to say it is just not there yet. And yeah, they can sign so much better. And so it's so great for them to be able to communicate and, and not throw tantrums. Yeah, they can communicate.

Yeah, my friend's, uh, daughter is 2, I guess just turned 2. And like, whenever we do a FaceTime with them, it's— oh, they always are like doing sign language and doing all of that stuff because like, she's like, she knows 100 signs. She can only— she can't say any words, but she— or she'll say a couple words, but like, she can say so many signs.

Yeah, it's true. It, it like literally is the solution to the terrible twos is being able to communicate.

Literally, you're right. Yeah, I have 4 kids. I did it with all 4 of my kids, and now all my grandkids sign. And yeah, I mean, well, I think the thing— I mean, that's part of it. Like, part of it is terrible twos. That's great. The other part of it is deaf kids they grow up, they go to— a lot of times they get sent to regular schools with everyone else and they can't talk to anybody. Like, no one can talk to them except for an interpreter and like a teacher of the deaf and a few special people. And so, of course, like I said, my why is all the kids should be able to do it. All the kids should know enough sign language to be able to spell a few things and know just some basic words so that they can talk to these kids in their class. Like, how would you know? It's just horrible to think that you would grow up so isolated and not be able to communicate with your classmates and your coworkers and just people that you see, you know. So it's like trying to start, you know, small like these people and make it grow.

Yeah, it's incredible.

I love that.

And I love how, um, Love how you— because like your original builds didn't— like the, the, the ASL was like a piece of it, but it was like way far down the page.

Yeah.

Uh, and suddenly you see this, the final one, and it like— it's right in the image. The image is, is of, uh, love. It's like the— it's right there. So like, what— like, I guess, why originally were— did you decide to put it down like further on the page and then what made you like bring it back and make it the forefront?

Honestly, you did. So I'm a sign language interpreter. I've been doing this for 30 years. This is my life. So I kind of take it for granted that, okay, this is super obvious. This is a really cool book. My other books are super cool books. They have a great story. You get to learn sign language. They're really fun. Like, I just think it's so obvious that I forget that like 90% of the world, it's not obvious to them. And so I think your critique, like, I posted my first go-around and yeah, I think I was like, oh, it's a great story, it's got great art. And yeah, like you said, the ASL was way down at the bottom. And I think even before on Amazon, my messaging has always been about the story and about including deaf kids and not about teaching hearing kids how to sign. And so when you mentioned that as part of your critique, because I've always just focused on the special education part, the deaf education part, and when you were like, okay, but all these other people, that's why they're buying the book is because they think it's cool to learn sign language. And so it wasn't until you said that that it just clicked with me and I was like, oh, you're so right. So then when I put it up to the top, it all flowed together so much better. And so it's funny how sometimes it just takes like a third person to bring the obvious out. You know, it's just something I took for granted, I think, until you were like, uh, this is the coolest part of your campaign and you don't even have it on the top.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because the similar thing happened when I met Monica. She's like, no, the thing that you— and honestly, it happens a lot— was like, no, the thing that you take for granted— we're just talking about, I think, last hour— the things you take for granted are the revolutionary things that like nobody know that you need to bring up in the fore. And, you know, we all know why we wrote our book. We all know why we wrote our book. Like, you know, some of these books were so serious, like, had been started a decade ago. And like, something so obvious to you is not obvious to any other human that's not you. And often the best messaging that comes to a campaign is just like, well, let's go back and like Why? Why? Why? Tell me why. And then you're like, oh, that why. Now everything flows.

Yeah, yeah, it was amazing once I did that. And then once I, uh, did the graphic, that first graphic, when I realized I needed to add it, add the fingerspelling on the first one, then after that it was just like, oh, oh wow. And then it's what I guess was even cooler for me was since I have been doing this for a few years and I already had all this stuff, I already had the stickers, I already had the magnets, I already had the Whoopi I have all this stuff and I just didn't have a way to like get it out there. And so now I found through the Kickstarter that I can like lavish all these gifts on readers. And so they get all the extra cool stuff instead of just going on Amazon and buying a paperback book that, you know, okay, great. Then I think they get all this extra stuff and they just kind of— I thought that was the coolest thing was like, I've got all this stuff already. I have a whole curriculum already and now I can actually like put it all together.

Yeah, I remember talking to you about the curriculum and everything, but like, yeah, if you just look at how Monica like opened the gift, like it's like, like that's what you can do to all the people, whether there's 10 people or 1,000 people or 50 people or whatever that, that people that it is. Um, Monica, do you have any questions?

Um, yeah, so I'm curious, like aside from— so obviously that was a huge turning point to thematically make it ASL. What did you— so are there any other Kickstarter things, major lessons that you learned while doing your Kickstarter?

It's funny because before I started here, I was like, okay, I got to think of something to say. Well, I ended up with like 10 lessons, so I'm sure everybody's already said those and there's not that much time.

But I'm happy to hear all 10.

So yeah, well, the biggest thing that I, I didn't do the first time that I want to do in July is we had such a short time between like December and January when we started. I really didn't do any of the pre-launch stuff. I just like got my page, got it approved, and just kind of went for it. And then I kind of played catch-up as I did it and I never want to do that again. And luckily I already have a lot of stuff set up so I can just kind of repurpose it. But I definitely want to learn more about the email sequence that Russell had. I looked at it and I was like, yeah, I don't have time for that.

Next.

If there's one thing that I have heard consistently today is that part of it was overlooked by Monica and me too, but by literally pretty much everyone. I think it takes people being like, once I know that this works, then I'll go back and do it right. But let's just do it and see if it works first.

Yeah, that is exactly the way that I approached it. I was like, I have to just— I don't have time. I just got to do, like, what I have to do. Now that I realize, like, what it all means and how it all works, now I'm like, okay, now I want to breathe and try to— yeah, go back and do it right.

Yeah.

Um, let's Oh, one thing I wanted to say was I know when I was building the, the tiers, so I had a digital tier, a physical tier, and a merchandise tier. I guess I also had like a classroom tier since it's a picture book and it's kind of an educational content. I did a whole tier where you could buy stuff for like a PTO group or a school library or sponsor a classroom, that type of thing. And so I had this whole like group tier, I guess you would call it. Um, and I was trying— I followed Monica's video. I thought it was super helpful where she went through like all the— each item, and you figure out all your extra costs and then the profit, and you kind of play with all everything until you get enough, um, value in your tier and then also making enough profit to make it worth doing. And so that exercise was super, super helpful and saved me a lot of headaches. But one thing I did was I tried to put a lot of extra ebooks into some of my tiers because the digital things were higher profit. But I noticed after I did, um, I did the distribution that a lot of people never downloaded some of those extra ebooks. And I noticed when I was going back in my notes from Vegas Krishan Hannah had said that she puts a postcard with a QR code in some of the books so that the person can actually like send the QR code to someone else to like share it. And I thought, okay, that's a really cool idea because it's still something tangible and then they can actually physically share it with someone instead of, okay, I got this email, I've got this code, now I got to send it to like 3 of my friends. No one's going to do that. Okay, maybe a couple people are going to do that, but not very many people are going to do that. So I kind of liked that idea of, I think next time I maybe want to try that.

Um, what else?

What else?

Trying to talk fast. Um, oh, one thing I really like, this kind of goes with the whole pre-launch thing. I only had like 15 followers at the beginning before it launched. Like I shared it on my Facebook page. I shared it in my newsletter. And I just didn't get, I got a lot of people who had never even heard of Kickstarter and had no idea what to do. And I think that was my biggest struggle all along was the messaging with people who had no previous experience with Kickstarter. So I spent a lot of my time just telling people what it was and what I was doing and why. 'Cause a lot of people already had my other books and they were like, why can't I just buy your book now? So I had to explain all of that to people. And so that was like my biggest challenge, but it was also ended up being one of the most fun things that I did. I thought was—

you can always know when you're doing your pre-launch next time, you just know you had to put an ad, you had to put one of your emails for like, what is Kickstarter? And I'm pretty sure that in the copy thing for the paid full bonus, there's an email that's what is Kickstarter and how to—

and you still send that email every time, right? Like, something— maybe it's not its own email, but you at least, like, have a little paragraph or something, like, every—

yeah, I usually try and send it to especially the novel people. I do it when a campaign is, like, when it's, like, the fourth campaign in this series, I don't usually do it, but in a new series, like, I do. I do that for sure. And I think it's important because, like, you're gonna get people who don't know what Kickstarter is, like, every time. Like, there's— if you— especially if you're And also I've stopped my like so much aggressive organic, inorganic growth. So like people who find me usually find me through Kickstarter anyway. So I'm like, you probably already know Kickstarter. But when I was doing the beginning or for years and years and years, I would send that email, what is Kickstarter? And it had all of the things that you need, that you needed to know to be like, it's not like you don't put the money, doesn't come out immediately. This is why we're doing it. This is what it is. This is what it's not. And all of those things, like, they get people at least comfortable with the platform. And, you know, I probably— my next one will be like, and also it's good enough for Brandon Sanderson, so it's good enough for me.

Yeah, yeah, that was— it was, it was kind of exciting to be like, you know, do something before Brandon Sanderson did it. Yeah, not nearly to the level that he did it, but still it was kind of fun, like, to actually know what was going on. Trying to look at my list here. Um, oh, I know one thing I wanted to say was that, um, that posting daily was so uncomfortable for me. I really did not look forward to that. I did— I was worried about that. I hate, I hate doing stuff like that. But I made a spreadsheet, and for my stuff, I have a lot of people that work on it with me or help me, or there's a lot of people's stories that are kind of into— in my thing. In each book. And so I just made a spreadsheet, and every day I highlighted someone else that was related to the book, either the illustrator, the COVID designer, the people who contribute their stories in the back of the books, the people who took the— because I have all deaf creators on my books. And I think the other cool thing about, um, the series is that I'm trying to show like young kids and, and even parents, like, there's a lot of really cool deaf people out there doing really cool things, and your kid when they grow up is going to be able to go to college and have a job and have a life and have all these great things. Like, you don't have to be worried that just because your baby's born deaf that now, like, you have to have lower expectations for them. And so it was really fun to be able to focus each day on a different person and tell their story And, and I was amazed. I mean, I thought that actually turned out to be the most fun. I got tons of engagement and it was like genuine engagement. It wasn't just— and I liked how it kind of brought the focus away from me because I always hate having the focus on me. And so I was like, okay, hey, look at all these really cool people that have all worked together to make this project all come together. And people just loved it. And then also people were all congratulating those other people for being asked to be on my project. So it spread the love around and then it didn't feel like it was so much focused on me and it allowed me every day to kind of say something different. So I really liked your advice about change the message even though you're saying something every day. Change the message. I thought that was really helpful.

Yeah. As someone who came from comics, it was very helpful for me to be like, I can just talk about the other creators and how much they're great on the thing. I don't even have to talk— that's like a week of stuff I don't have to talk about myself.

Yeah.

So as we're coming out of this, remember, if you have any final questions or comments, then make sure to put them in there. But how about you just give us sort of the— you gave us a lot of the best piece of advice, but like any parting words and where we can find your stuff online? And then we'll say goodbye.

All right. Let me think here.

I think I said most of the super important things. I think just all the resources were great. I mean, like your spreadsheet, your budget spreadsheet made my eyes cross. I'm not— but like, I admire your, your statistical— like, wow. I kind of keep track of stuff, but you really keep track of stuff. My budget spreadsheet was much smaller, but it still like helped me like see what types of things I needed to include. Even if I didn't do yours exactly, like I still like got the gist of how to do it. So I actually made a profit. So that's good. And now I have a whole bunch of books I have to figure out how to sell directly. But like it's so cool that it actually worked. Like it didn't just work, it— I actually made a profit and now I have things that I can also use. So I can definitely see my way forward to how this is going to continue working. But, um, you're also— your list of like where to order stuff, like those Duke the Deaf Dog stickers, those vinyl stickers, I used, um, one of the places that you had mentioned in your file. So like all of your like cheat files and spreadsheets and all that stuff, like people have to just— I mean, it's a lot to go through, but people just have to like do it. You just have to set aside an hour or two every day and just go look at all the stuff because it's all there and there's so much there. And like, I really did— like, I'm a rule follower, so I just followed along with like, okay, this is what they said to do, I'm just doing it, you know?

Yeah, it's funny because like, it's all the things you mentioned are things we don't even talk about until you get in the thing. Like the—

yeah, that's true.

Yeah, the, the budget templates, the, um, the, uh, the vendor sheets.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, we don't talk about the book exchange, like all of that.

Oh yeah, the book exchange. Well, that's the one thing, I guess, my plea for help from other people. There's only 3 books in the Picture Book Book Exchange, and I'm like recruiting all of my children's author friends. And even I also write cozy mysteries, so I've got all my cozy mystery friends. I arm wrestled them into the group, and I'm, uh, it's like, okay, we need to now, like, you got all your comic fantasy people, now the children's book people. We need to like put more books up there and and like get together and help each other.

Yeah, that's the thing is like, you know, this is very new. Like we've been doing this less than a year and as new sections come in, like we always see like picture books is a huge industry on Kickstarter. Like it's 25% of the publishing platform. Like, and there's a huge opportunity for people that have art anyway. So like I'm super— I agree with Kelly. Like if you're in the picture book, like join the thing, join the exchange.. And like, uh, we will show you how to just kill it and so that you can make a profit on your picture books before you ever launch them on Amazon.

Definitely, definitely. And just being able to share, like, do all the things that everyone else is doing— sometimes I felt a little left out because I couldn't share.

I didn't—

a lot of things didn't fit with my brand or whatever. And so yeah, being able to find your people in the group and then the community that forms within the group has been Great.

Thank you. Awesome. I'm so glad. Where can we find your stuff? And then we'll say goodbye.

Um, you can look at my website, kellybarkenhoff.com. And, um, yeah, I have a whole closet full of hardcover books that I need to get out of the closet.

So yeah, awesome, awesome. Yeah, I love your series, and thank you so much for stopping by, and we'll talk to you soon.

And see you. Thank you, Kelly.

See you guys again.

Good to see you too. All right. Thank you so much.

There are just so many 20 Books people who we met at 20 Books who are in the group.

And like, yeah, I know a lot of them.

Yeah.

And a lot of them who said the same exact thing, which is I never thought I was going to do Kickstarter and then I met you and went to the things and now I've made a bunch of money on Kickstarter. So that's really gratifying.

I know it is really funny and I feel like they all met you, Russell. I don't feel like they necessarily met me.

Well, Well, Kelly specifically told me that she thought I was a lot when she first met me. And I was like, I get that. Because we met at the— we went to a— there was a Sunday lunch before that— before— or Monday, maybe it was Monday. I don't know. It was Sunday or Monday. It was a day before the thing started. And there's a bunch of us, me and Joelle and Antoine and a bunch of people who And I could, like, I'm a lot. Look, I'm a lot. I'm a lot. I think I'm a lot different once you get to know me, but like, when you meet me, so like, so yeah, she told me that. She's like, I thought you were just really intense when I first met you. You're so nice. But after I talked to you for—

I think it's so funny because you've said so many times like, oh, I'm so intimidating. And it's like, I don't know, Russell. Like, you are— I mean, you are, but you're kind of like— you're like this, like, super nice guy, like, behind the scenes.

But I think so too. But this is what I'm— I'm told, told that I am intimidating. And I guess especially when it's been like— I did a video last night and I was like, not— I didn't have my voice on. I didn't have my, like, my, like, timber voice on because we just done this all day. So I was like, not I was not my, like, in my— I had not done my octave change to do that. Yeah, I don't know. Um, but good. The group's really cool. Like, I think y'all should join if you're, if you're part of it.

Hi, here we go! Thanks, Sarah. Hi, how's it going? Great, how are you?

Doing well, doing well.

Busy day.

Awesome.

Yeah, well, let me pull up your campaign and we can talk about it. Do you want to introduce yourself while we, uh, while I pull up your campaign?

Sure, I'm Sarah Moncler, or S.A. Moncler is my pen name. Um, I write fantasy novels and, uh, yeah, launched this back in January and it was super successful and much due to the group on Facebook, the Accelerator group. And so very excited, um, about the progress that I've made on Kickstarter. This was my third campaign, so yeah.

Well, so how did you, how did you get into Kickstarter to begin with?

Yeah, I, um, do a lot of shows, or I started off doing a lot of shows, and one of my other author friends had done a Kickstarter. So I said, okay, let me try it. I did it. The first two I did were successful, but they were relatively small and I knew that I wanted to scale. And I've been like, I had been watching Russell's campaigns, had backed Russell's campaigns a number of times previously. And so I was kind of watching already what he was doing. And then when I saw your book, come out on Kickstarter. I knew that I wanted to do it and then I saw that you had the accelerator group and so kind of decided to see why not, see what would happen if I applied some of the strategies that you all utilize to my campaign as well. And it worked really well, obviously, 'cause—

I wanna ask about that because you doubled, basically more than doubled your previous backer number and you almost doubled your fund amount. So like, what do you think the changes are that you made that were most impactful for this glow up that you've had?

Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. I think number one, there were a lot of strategies that were shared about how to organize your page so that it's the most appealing to readers and fans as well as Kickstarter, 'cause this time around I got the Kickstarters We Love, Projects We Love badge, and that was my first time getting it, and so I think that had a lot to do with it. I think too, I always say that I am not the greatest at marketing, and so like I really ramped up like my email campaign, the types of messaging that I used in those emails and had a very succinct, like I was doing stuff basically every day, which was the suggestion. And I had never done that before. Clearly it works. And so I think as I'm thinking through, okay, well, what do I want to do next? Like even thinking about how can I continue to enhance and refine my messaging and what does that look like and what kind of story do I want to tell about the books that I'm writing and the stories that I am telling? What's at the heart of that? And I think that's kind of what the accelerator group kind of targets is how do we really craft our message? It's not just about writing the books. It's also about how we talk about our books and what that looks like and how that feels.

Yeah, I mean, I think like one thing that Russell and I talk about— sorry, I feel like there's some feedback. Is that me? No. Okay, so one thing that Russell, um, Russell and I talk about sometimes is just like how we teach a lot of like marketing and sales basically, and I think that's something that authors don't, um, necessarily Well, there are lots of, there's lots of marketing and sales tactics and strategies that are geared toward retailers. Retailers' direct sales are very different. So then, but I feel like there's not like direct sales. You have to, you really have to own like the whole marketing and sales process compared to retailers. So there's like, like even if you're great at marketing on marketing and selling on retailers, there's like a gap in knowledge once you have to own that whole piece. And I think, like, that's kind of what you're talking about, is just how do you talk about, you know, fiction specifically? Because I think most people's answer is, like, you have the description or you have the blurb and you have a sample and that's it, and you have a cover. And so there's, there's just not a lot going on. Whereas on Kickstarter, you, like you said, you have, like, your why, you have your character explanations, you have your world explanations, um, or whatever else it is for different genres. So like, for like mystery, it's like you have your puzzle. Like, that's, that's kind of what the mystery is about, is like, what is the puzzle? Um, so yeah, I think that's really interesting.

What's cool is that you have, you have great covers. Like, the first thing that I thought of when I had your when I saw your thing was like, wow, those are amazing covers. And if you can take those amazing covers and add a why to it, like it becomes very, very, very powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it's weird for me because I do the bulk of my sales at in-person events and I do really well in person. Like I, I do really, really well in person. And so for me, it was figuring out how do I translate how I talk about my books when I'm engaging with people face to face. How do I do that when I'm not face to face with them? How do I capture the way that I talk about them, the way that I message about them, and then put that online and translate it in the same way that I would if I were having a conversation with someone? I think that's a big part of it is like in Kickstarter, it is a conversation. You are having a conversation directly with your fans and with anybody else who might be interested. And so that's how you have to craft all of the messaging.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, one thing I think about is that like with retailers, you basically can take all the same stuff and put it on like in like Author Central. Where are you at, Russell? Am I just like having tech issues?

Okay. No, she's I hear the feedback and you're— yeah, and I said I hear you stiltedly talking, like, what? But so it's— I don't know, it's humorous to me. I like that. The kind of stuff makes me laugh. So sorry, keep going. You were on such a roll too.

I know. And then I got—

you heard yourself and you're like, I—

yeah. So if you go to Author Central, you could actually— like, I was thinking about this for myself, but like, now there's like at least on it, I'll just use Amazon as an example because everybody's on Amazon. Not everybody's on like Google Play or wherever else, but, um, on Amazon you have A+ Content now and you have, um, a couple sections in Author Central. So there's like About the Author where people like put notes and stuff, um, there's Editorial Description. And so that's like a lot of extra lines basically where you're able to kind of sell your book more using a lot of the same principles that we talk about in the Kickstarter Accelerator. And I think it's really helpful, you know, with your experience doing cons and events and that sort of thing. Like, that is another way that it could translate to retailers. Yeah, absolutely.

I would love to. So you talked about like that, that you had to make that transition. Me and Monica have been talking to a couple of other people who like, who like doing a lot of shows. Like, how did you make that? Like, how did you decide what you said at shows and then put on your page? Like, what was the process like?

Yeah, I'm going to be honest. There was a lot of like recording myself talking and then writing it down because I think I do really well whenever I'm engaging with folks and talking about what I'm writing and what that looks like for me. So yeah, a lot of recording and then writing it down and then refining it and trying to make it as succinct as possible so that whenever folks are reading it, it comes across in the way that I wanted it to come across. I think that that's how my brain kind of works in a lot of ways, that external processing of the message.

Yeah. I mean, you see a lot of people who are really good with— really good speakers are really good at the written— like even David Sedaris, like David Sedaris, he talks it out as he's like making it. And he'll like do— when he does in-person events, he like, is right, is you just using first drafts and refining it until it, like, hits in the exact way that, that he wants, and then he's writing it down and massaging it out of there. So, like, I think that's such a wise thing to do because, like, not everything that is, that, that reads really beautifully sounds good in marketing copy or is, is concise. I was talking to someone about this last night where I was like, The words you're saying are very pretty and, like, it's well written, but I do not understand what you just said. Like, I have no idea what's going on here, which makes it bad writing. Like, because we're not here— like, your book is where you write the big, beautiful, flowy paragraphs. The page is where you get the point across. And, like, good writing is different in both places. Like, and, like, like, you could just write 5 pages about a chair, like, and it was beautiful on a book, but like, you can't do that on a marketing page, even on a marketing page about a chair.

It's true. I mean, a lot of things can get lost in translation, right? Whenever we're trying to describe everything that's going on and the reason that we write these stories and the reason that we're putting it on whatever platform we're putting it on. A lot can get lost if we're not really tailoring our message to really land. And I think that's a big piece of it is figuring out who our key audiences are and figuring out the language that will land with them the most to gain that buy-in and that excitement.

Yeah, so I got to share something with you because I've been talking about rewards a lot recently and like how yours are so succinct. Like I went through this and I was ready to buy the digital. And then I saw this thing that said tea. And like, it's so like, this is not a cute word. It's not cute wording. It's just like says you will receive tea. And I was like, well, and then it was like, or you can receive tea and get the book. And like, it's, this is very boring, but really good marketing writing because it is It literally got me from $5 to $15 because I saw tea. Yeah. And I was like, ah, do I want it? I think it was a sampling. Yeah. So I got a sampling. Yeah, a sampling. I like that. And so like, you just, like, I think people make this assumption that like, if it's, if it's, if it's not beautiful or silly or campy, then like, or whatever their brand is, like, it's not good marketing. So they try and be cuter than they need to be, but like, What do you want? What do you get? You get an ounce of tea. This is the thing. You get an ounce of tea and an ebook and you're like, yes, that's what I want. And like, that is the perfect way to scale somebody from literally, like, I didn't know your book, but I liked you from being in the group. And we've known each other for a long time, uh, uh, as, uh, uh, from the Kickstarters. And I saw your book and I was like, oh wow, this is like a really cool looking book. This is exactly my aesthetic book. Like, I don't know. I'm not saying everyone will love, but like, this is a really enticing cover.

It's definitely a really well-done book. This is like a cover he would have on his book. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's like, it's very clear why you're fans of each other. So I went to it and I was like, okay, cool. Like, this looks good. So it had congruency. Like, I saw the thing you told me about it. I saw the picture congruency. And then I should probably have this pulled up still. I don't know why I'm, why I take what I went, it makes Uh, so there was congruency, then the video was good, and then I was like, yeah, okay, I'm buying this. Like, I don't know what level I'm going. I was like, I'll buy it $5. Like, of course I'm going to support at least $5. Like, she's been so supportive and like, this book looks cool. So I'm like, but then I'm like, oh, let's see what else she has. So I'm like, I don't know if I want 2 ebooks because I don't know if I love this series yet. But there's like tea. Okay, well, how much tea can I get? And like, it just, it just kept going up. And like, I could have seen myself if I like like to get the duo of samples to spend $20. And like when people think about like, like when, when, when you're, when we're talking about like how to get someone to go from $5 to $25 or like whatever and scaling up, like there's the, the, the, the technically you need things at different pledge levels that all build together, but practically like what you're doing, like this is what you want. Like you want someone to say, Wow, that's a really cool-looking image. And then read and be like, wow, that's a really cool-looking idea. And then read and be like, wow, yeah, I want that book. Oh, whoa, no, I could get 6 books. Oh, she's got 12 books. I want all of those books. And then that is— and there's tea on top of it. Like, that's the, that's the practical, like, gut-level mechanic that you can't— like, it's very hard to teach how to do because it's like It's not just mechanically you have these different pledge levels. It's also like buyer psychology-wise, you want someone to go on a journey and that journey to keep them going up the value ladder until they're spending $500.

Which I did have. I had a couple of backers back me at some pretty high levels, including one that I had never met him before. I actually met him at a panel that I hosted as part of the Kickstarter, and he was phenomenal. I loved him. But But he had like read one book of mine before, and then because of the Kickstarter, ended up ordering all of the books. And so I think to your point, Russell, I think the way that we package it and package the books in terms of like, if you do this, this is the kind of deal that you're going to get, and these are the books, or these are the special items that you're going to get as a part of this campaign. And I kind of honestly took that principle. I combined what I do at my shows, like I do combo deals all the time for that very same purpose, right? If they are gonna get one, why not get two? And then also looking at the way that you actually design your tracks for some of your Kickstarter campaigns and what other folks were doing in that first accelerator group, and just kind of melded it all together to get to where— to get to those tracks.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's what it is.

I'm sorry. Oh, I was just gonna say, I thought it was interesting because it's like, you know, somebody wanted to buy your whole catalog at a show, like, they're probably not going to, right? Like, I would think, like, you know, unless you, like, had your trunk— the trunk of your car, like, like you were right next to a door and, like, the trunk is right there and people can just, like, walk it over you know, like, you're probably, like, not gonna buy, like, a whole catalog, and you might not even have your whole catalog there with you. And so I do think the Kickstarter, um, project is very complementary to that because it's like, well, now, like, I can sell you my whole catalog and, like, you're going to get it shipped to your house. And, like, that's just so much more convenient than, um, picking it up at a show. So— and it's still signed and everything, so it's not like I just ordered it from Amazon. And the money goes still to you, you know, so like I'm still supporting you and it's exciting because now this Kickstarter number went way up really quickly. And so I just think there's like an element of that for like anybody who sells at cons or other events. It's like, why, why wouldn't you tell people about, you know, your Kickstarter or like, or your email list or whatever? So it kind of helps you transition to the online stuff too.

Yeah, absolutely.

So what other— do you have another question, Russell, or do you want me to—

oh, so my dog started barking, so go for it. I'm trying to be like, how much barking is this thing going to get to do before I have to jump out of this seat randomly?

So go for it. All right. So I think we've talked about some of the lessons learned. Let's see what else. Oh, so what— and you talked about some of the things that you're going to do next time, right? Or do we ask that question? Did I ask that question? All right, let's do that then. Sorry. So what are— yeah, like, what's your plan for the next year regarding Kickstarter? How does it fit into your plans? Like, what are some things you want to do next time that you maybe didn't do on this campaign?

Yeah, so the next book that is on my docket to release is actually the third book of the Broken Prophecy series, which I ran two Kickstarters previous. Those were the first two Kickstarters I ran were part of that series. And so I'm really excited because this is the last book in that series that I'm like finishing up. And so I think because I launched this particular Kickstarter, the one in January on three books, like thinking about, okay, well now this is also going to be another finished series. So how can I use some of those same strategies that I did with the Broken Earth, with the Lost Queen Chronicles to kind of package the whole series? I have other books in the same universe. What would that look like if I can think through the messaging of that? I think also connect, continue to connect with the other authors that I formed a relationship with. And really support— like, I've been supporting campaigns as we've gone along and really looking forward to continue to support some of them. And so looking at the strategies that they're using, learning from the things that they've done, and continue— that's how I, that's how I grow, right? Like, I really do look and pay attention into what other folks are doing and then try to adapt for my own personal style and see what works and what doesn't. And I think I learned a lot about how to set up the campaign, thinking through what elements I want to include in my video. I mean, I work remotely for my full-time job, and I've also been thinking about how can I incorporate more videos into some of my messaging or into my emails that again has that more direct connection with my fans. So it's not just text on a page. And so those are the kinds of things that I've been thinking about as I'm heading into this next project that I'm hoping to do on Kickstarter, that I will be doing on Kickstarter.

Awesome. So, uh, as we get out of here, and, uh, how about, um, what's the best piece? How about let us know the best piece of advice that you, uh, haven't given out yet, um, where we can find you, and then we will say goodbye.

Yeah, I mean, I think the best piece of advice that I can give is to, if they haven't, if you haven't tried Kickstarter, to try it, right? Like it doesn't cost, it literally costs you nothing to try and to look at what has been done and to utilize some of the strategies that you notice and just give it a whirl. Like, what do you have to lose, right? I, yeah, that's probably my best advice is like, Just try it, see what happens, tailor your message, and then like move on, right? Like do something different the next time if it doesn't work out the way that you hoped it would.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I have one piece of, one more question. As someone who is on the fence about joining the accelerator, like what would you tell them? What would you tell them?

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. Like I clearly ran two successful Kickstarters before I joined the accelerator group.. And I think that the community that I have built since being a part of the accelerator group is amazing. And I also think that, you know, some of the other authors and I hosted a world-building panel. We've shared tips and tricks with one another. We continue to have conversations. And so I think it's not just the doing it yourself, it's also, or the strategies and the tips, you can get that out of the book. It's the community that you build and the being able to engage in conversation with the other authors. And so if you're on the fence, like, that would be my advice to you. Like, just do it. Like, join, form those connections, form that community, because that's how we, that's how we continue to grow. And like, I very much believe that a tide rises all ships, right? And if we have to be a part of that in order for it to get higher and higher. And so do it together.

Yeah. Awesome. I love it. And where can we find you?

Yeah.

So you can find me on my website, samoncler.com, or on Amazon.

All right, Monica, you have anything, final things to say before we say bye to her?

Yeah, we just appreciate you. Thank you for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you so much. It was lovely getting to know you. It was inspiring. Yeah. Yeah, and we'll talk to you soon. See you inside the group.

Yeah, have a great day, everyone.

Bye. Bye. So yeah, I think that's— I think, um, I take it for granted, uh, the community part of it. I think because I've been doing this for a long time and have such, like, I don't know, you can like my work or not, my community is banging though. Like, the people that I know, like, just like the creators that I know, uh, are just like the best. Like, whether you like me or not, they are the best. Best, uh, outside of that.

And I take it for granted that so many people don't have any of that, right? Like, just not having an author community, it is weird because it's like, yeah, like, same as you, you know. I've been publishing since 2009. I've been a part of the community, um, more visibly since like 2014, um, mostly because I chose to like start helping other authors. So that helps like raise my profile within the community, um, and then like speaking and whatever. Um, but yeah, so like I have like, yeah, like hundreds of, hundreds of authors that I talk to, um, you know, like at least once a year or so. Or, or like if I go to a conference, like I, I know people because I've been going to conferences. But, um, I agree, like I think there are lots of people who really don't have the community and who just, you know, this is a good community. And we were talking yesterday how there are like 6 and 7-figure authors in our community who are attracted to Kickstarter and who are figuring out ways to, you know, especially with their backlist, trying to figure out like, how can we, you know, how can I take something from my backlist and just make like another $10 grand, another $20 grand, like whatever it is. And so there are lots of, really successful authors in there that are starting at the beginning with Kickstarter and seeing the opportunity there. And I feel like, you know, if you, if you want to, you know, build a well-networked community of authors, then like, you know, yeah, just like, I feel like, like the Kickstarter community that we have, the Kickstarter Accelerator community that we have is a really good place to do that because there's only like— there's still at this point we're only like 150, you know, 175 people in. So like there's not like— that's a very like a less than 200 person group. Everybody has the same goal. Everybody's like willing to cross promote because like we're all kind of— well, except for Russell and a few others, but like a lot of us are just starting out on Kickstarter. And so it's like you can I mean, it's a really good opportunity, I think, in terms of community.

Yeah. And especially Kickstarter is— can be a very lonely place because very few people are doing it, right? Like, and so, like, the, the fiction part of this community especially, there's very few people that are launching at the same time. There's very— look, in the comics community, it's very easy to just be like, hey, I have a cool Comic-Con Kickstarter, and like suddenly you have a big community. Like, because like everyone like kind of is all there. The novel side is not like that at this moment. We're trying to— that's what we're trying to build, but it's not like that right now. So we have to— so like, not— so you can go in there and very much like feel alone because no one knows how to use Kickstarter, no one knows what Kickstarter is. Like, no, uh, other authors aren't really using it. The other authors who are using it may or may not be using it well, uh, so, and they don't want to cross-promote or understand cross-promotion or any of those things or be wary of other people because like it's not the way. So what you get in the community, in the community we have, is like, like we show you how to do all the things, right?

Like it's like, you know, it's going to be a good Kickstarter campaign to cross-promote with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if there's not, then we will say something specifically to them, you know, it's like Monica invited me to a thing a couple months ago, and like, I was pretty nervous to go. There was like 30 other authors there, but I was like, what I found was like, because they were all invited and like curated by awesome authors that I knew, like, even if I didn't know them, like, my guard was down, and I was able to have better conversations with them because I knew that, like, they were going to be cool. And, like, if they were not, someone would take care of it and let me know about that. And, like, while we don't have complete control over somebody, I can say that, like, if you're gonna spend $500 on a thing, you're probably committed to it. You're gonna spend $800 on a thing or $1,000 on a thing, like, you're committed to it. Like, you You want to make it work. And also that investment means we can invest in moderators and, and, and workshops and all of the things that are important to keeping it running well and keeping a miscreant element away. And also knowing that the people that are commenting like are on the same same tradition as you and they're all in the same. There's a really good, I think that you're, um, we talk about free groups, like I think the Wife for the Win group that we're both part of is a very good group and it is a very good group because it is heavily moderated. There is a tree of knowledge that everyone follows that like everyone directs back to and like, you know, that like there are people that are going to say we're closing comments down here. No, don't do this. Yes, do that. This has already been discussed 100 times before. So go to refer to that. Like there are people and there are other really great free groups that are out there, but like, yeah, like 20 books.

I think 20 Books to $50K is also a really strong free group.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's not one on Kickstarter and we, that's at least not one for Kickstarter in the publishing community. And so that's, that's what you get. Like you get all of the knowledge, you get our tree of knowledge too. But you get, you get all of that stuff, the community part of it too. And to know that, you know, the people, the people that have joined have at least made a monetary commitment to care about Kickstarter and be good stewards for the platform.

And yeah, and they're like learning, like you said, they're, they're learning the same language. And so like it's very safe to like listen to somebody's comments in our paid group, like, like if they're giving feedback or whatever, it's mostly us giving feedback. But if somebody sees something like, it's really good, it's good to listen to them too, because they've taken all the same training. So we know they're not saying something out in left field that is actually— I wouldn't say harm your campaign, but that could be confusing maybe because it may conflict with what we're trying to tell you to do. And we like Russell's way is not the only way, um, and we know that. But you know, if you're gonna be in the program, like, it, it's like, why not just do it Russell's way at least once? And then you get to like, you know, make it your own at some other point. But right, or at least try like some other thing.

But yeah, and there are people that are saying, that say in the group like, hey, this is how to take this thing and translate it to like a way that— here's how I translate it. But we're all starting from the same And the same, those two groups that you mentioned also, like, you're all starting from the same language, from the same, like, like, basis of how we do things. And, and a lot of people are like, hey, yeah, like, you need to watch this video that you missed, or like, there's a new video over here, or like, there's all these things that are happening that, um, you know, I mean, I, I'm part of a lot of groups and like I would, I would not talk about the group very much if I did not think it was good. I have Facebook groups that I've managed, including for courses that I did not think are good and I never talked about. So like this one I think is good. I think this is a good one. And I think the community, not that the people inside of it were not good, but just like it was not very engaged. Like they were not on the same mission. Like they weren't speaking the same language, but because we have the whole cohort coming in together, they kind of all are learning the same thing at the same time or roughly the same time and making each campaign stronger. And I'm really shocked. I'm consistently shocked at how quickly people have leveled up. I thought this would take a year or two at minimum till I get people from doing like $1,000, $2,000 campaigns $5,000 to $7,000 campaigns. And because of everyone iterating off each other, they're just able to get there a whole lot faster.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is happening really, really quickly. And the other thing is we're starting, especially with the second cohort coming in, last month, April, beginning of the month, I did a post that was like, hey, there are— I think there were like 2 people from the group because it was 90 people at that point. So 2 people from the group were launching and there might have been a couple of others that that I didn't find or didn't pick up. But we had 2 people and then in May we actually have like, I mean, Russell's launching, I'm launching, and then we also have like a bunch of other people who are launching. So we're doing like these threads now where it's like, hey, if you're launching in May, like post below and like let us know the date that you're launching. And I think that's only going to get more and more valuable over time because we now have like enough people to where it's like there are people launching every single month. In the Kickstarter Accelerator.

Yeah. And it'll go bigger and bigger each time that it happens. And then that will lead to more and more cross-promotion. I remember in January, I was like, I launched just to show everyone. And then like a couple other people. And then no one kind of really launched in February because like there was not like, and then I launched at the end of February and suddenly more people launched. And then like, so like, and then people started having the success of like having the time and do, which is why we, I tell you, like, if you're not ready and until October, like this is the time to get in because you'll have 6 months to figure all of this stuff out. And like, I have another campaign I'm launching in May. I have one I'm launching in, in August. I know Monica's launching one. Monica's launching a nonfiction one. Like there's just so many things that like everyone is launching that's different. You're going to be able to see how they all interact with each other. And frankly, just like how they commingle and how people from different spaces, like, take up space in their area.

Yeah. I mean, the cool thing. So, like, yeah, Russell is already up to like 5 or 6 campaigns a year at this point. 5 this year, maybe 5. 5. Yeah. But because this program has been so successful, I've also, like, committed personally to doing, like, probably 4, maybe, maybe even a 5th campaign toward the very end of the year. But probably, probably not. If you, if you know me, I like tend to kind of start to push stuff back, but I should be able to get like 4 campaigns in. And so all of that just really— because, because I was like, well, if, if everybody, if people are committing to this, like, I can commit to it too. Um, and so I'll be doing more campaigns too, um, just to show kind of like someone starting from the beginning basically, um, how, how to move up So there's definitely a lot of commitment to this community and to this program.

Yes. So just, we got about 10 minutes before Craig comes on. So do you want— I did the last pitch on the accelerator. Sure.

How about you do it? Okay. So the Kickstarter Accelerator, it's 4 months to a successful publishing Kickstarter. So I won't read the whole thing, but basically we take you through month 1, we do campaign design, month 2, we do pre-marketing. So everybody has come on to this, this livestream for the last like 4 or 5 hours and talked about how there wasn't a lot of time to do the pre-marketing work. And that's like email sequence and that sort of thing. Like, how do you— like Russell does his about 4 weeks out. How do you get people ready to back your Kickstarter and to show up during launch week? So we're gonna work on that for a month. And then month 3 is launch, and month 4 is fulfillment. So fulfillment was another thing that a lot of people asked us for, just more support around fulfillment. And so, um, fulfillment is really like, you know, it's like printing, shipping, um, packaging, doing backer surveys, all that stuff. Um, and we're pretty, you know, we're pretty excited to add some of that stuff. We have, we have stuff already, but we'll still be creating stuff for that. Um, so, you know, the other thing is like there are a couple different things that you get as part of it. So one is the Teachable site, and we're still kind of building it out, but it already has like 30, 30 or 40 videos. There's more, and they're all labeled. So like on Facebook, it's like kind— it is organized, but like it's not easy to watch. But then, um, here in the Teachable site, everything's super organized by like modules, and like you can tell like what the lesson is, and you can hop around as you need to. Um, so, and again, there's just like so many videos in here. It's probably maybe half of what is going to be there. Um, and the other thing we did is we took all the stuff from like even like just paid Q&As that Russell's done over the years, paid webinars, like all of that stuff, even, even like the free stuff. So it's really just like a place where everything is organized too. And that's really nice. So you have the Teachable site and then the community. It's a fantastic place to, to really get your questions answered. So we're constantly— and you'll see like there's a couple posts a day in there, like every single day now because there's people working on their campaigns. But it's a great place to just post your questions, get, you know, Russell and me answer, but then also now our community answers as well, or like shares resources or whatever. So, you know, you kind of watch the relevant videos to what you're trying to do, go post in the group if you have questions. And the questions are so high quality at this point because because we've built out a lot of resources already. So it's like the resources really give you a lot of good overview and then you're doing questions based on, yeah, just based on knowing what you're talking about now. So the questions are not like, how do you do reward tiers? That's like a question that I would expect to see in a free group, but we don't have questions like that in there. Because how to do rewards, yours is like a 30-minute video at least.

Or if they are in there, I say go watch the video.

We shut it down. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So then also we have the May cohort and then we'll do— I'm sure we'll do like a— I guess a December cohort. But the May cohort basically goes month by month through the program.. And so it's 4 weeks, you get 3 tasks per week, and then you are able to complete each task individually in the community area. So the Facebook area. So each one has a piece of homework and you just post your homework down there and then we offer feedback. So for example, when you are doing your reward tiers, that's one of the tasks that you will do. Obviously you've got to do reward tiers. But you'll, it'll be like, you know, post your, post the list of reward tiers that you're considering or, you know, whatever it is. And we just had, there's somebody planning their campaign for like a couple months and they just, they posted their reward tiers and they were a very successful person on Kickstarter already, posted their reward tiers and then we went through them recently and we were chatting with them kind of behind the scenes about it too. So we're not just like, oh, hey, reward tiers look good. We're like, hey, this is a really important part of your campaign and we want you to be successful. So let's dig in deeper to all of this regarding the reward tiers.

Yeah, I mean, we're really committed to getting this to be successful because like we want 400 people in it a year to come through, you know. Like we want, we want like this to be like the place that people stop kind of before they do direct sales and say like, okay, this is like direct sales light. I'm thinking about doing these things and getting funnels and all of this stuff. Like let me learn how to do all of the things that I need to do in a safe environment like Kickstarter that has its own algorithm engine. So like we're committed to doing this. And also we know, especially for this cohort, like the more successful campaigns that we have, the better the group is going to be, the more high level the questions are going to be, the more people are going to be excited for doing the next one, the better examples that we have for the next one. And like, so we spend way more time than we should in there. I spend way more. I'm going to get off this and probably spend an hour or two going through questions right after this, maybe make another video. I'm not sure. Just like I tend to make a lot of videos because instead of when someone has a big question, I'm just like, I'm just going to talk about this for 10 minutes. So it's really not only are the people awesome that are in there, but like we are very committed to keeping our very high success rate and and keeping it growing. Because like our goal is to have probably not the average, that would be crazy, but like at least 25% of the campaigns that come through go to $10K. Like at least, and we really would like 50% of it because the average across all of Kickstarter is 25%. So like we would like to have a big, a big, number closer to 50% or so and like everyone doing good numbers. Like maybe not if you have zero fandom, but like we want people to be doing the kind of numbers that they can legitimately in a couple of years expect to get the 5 figures or a couple of campaigns and that they will consistently from day one be able to break, to break even and better on their campaigns. That's really like the break even or better is like, that's the secret. To, like, doing, having a long-term publishing career. Most of the books behind me did very little besides break even, but I have enough of them that a couple of them did way better, and none of them have sunk me. Yeah. So, like, that's kind of, to me, the key.

Well, I think it's worth talking about ROI. Like, one of the reasons we want to do that, at least for me, I think Russell shares in this, but we really believe that being an independent author and having the freedom to write what you want is super, super valuable. And we just want to give that. We want everybody to see the path to that. And we think Kickstarter is a really big part of that. So there's talk about in the wide community how going to breaking free of exclusivity and going to, you know, some of the other retailers, it can really provide relief. It can keep you from feeling burnout, especially if you're in kind of this burn and turn type of environment and you leave that. So a lot of people, when they go wide, they kind of scale back on how many books that they have to write. I think Kickstarter is also a way to do that. But then, you know, the other thing is like so many authors, like go so deep in the hole actually just trying to get like a single series like even done. So like if you're doing 5 books, by the time you pay for covers, editing and all that stuff, because that's kind of the minimum I think it takes to make pretty good money with that. And you have to do a lot right. Like you got to do like 95% of those books correctly. Written to market and make them really marketable. Where I think on Kickstarter, there's quite a bit of leeway almost because you're targeting a really different audience. So I just think it's like super valuable path to know about. So if you want to join the Kickstarter Accelerator, we have the cohort starting. It's like it's already started, but the tasks are starting next week. And, you know, there's like some intro tasks. So lots of people did the challenge and stuff like that. And a lot of those tasks are already posted and they're kind of already through that. But yeah, so if you want to do the accelerator, it's a one-time payment of $799 and you get a couple painful bonuses. There's also the 12-month payments for $79. And if you join in this round, there's a special bonus workshop. It's prerecorded, a 2-hour workshop, and it's called Why Fans Love Your Work. And the cool thing about that workshop is some of the stuff that we've talked about today about finding the narrative of your Kickstarter campaign, finding your why, even just figuring out like, like Russell talked about how at events you know, seeing people's eyes light up with interest, like, how do you actually figure out what that is? And so we could just go through some exercises of like figuring out why do fans like this?

Do you want to add anything, Russell? Yeah, the only thing I want to add is like their other bonus is you get in because we are closing this down until October because we have to get 80 people through a successful campaign, um, so that when we open this back up in October, 200 people want to join. And then like, that's going to be way too many for us, and then we have to bring on more and more people to like help us. But like, we're not gonna offer this until October. Like, Monica and I have been talking about Kickstarter pretty much non-stop for 6 months. Like, we're burnt out. Like, we need time off and we need time to get people through. So like, if you're, if you're wondering what like biggest like benefit is, is like you get in. If you don't join by Sunday, you don't get in and then you have to wait until 2023 to really start your campaign because Accelerator opens in October, but we are not gonna really start launching until January.

Yeah, it's a, yeah, the, for the, with the cohort, it's like basically a January launch. So, you'll be in in November, but we don't really recommend launching during the summer. So, you know, and you're probably busy, so it'll be like a January launch again, just like it was this year.

So, so if you want interest in that, kickstartnovel.com/accelerator.

Is, uh, Craig ready? Um, I have not seen Craig, so, uh, we will wait a couple more minutes.

Do you want to talk about the bonuses? Yeah, absolutely. I just didn't want Craig to be waiting.

Yeah, I see him.

Let me, let me, I'll check in with him. Okay, so bonuses. Bonus 1, if this is for everyone, this is my audience building course, How to Build an Audience from Scratch. A lot of people, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of people have been asking me like, what if I have no audience? And this is my answer. We're going to help you build an audience from scratch. This is my pre-recorded course. It's a $27 value. And then bonus 2, the next question that people ask me is like, how do I stay out of the red? And so we have a bunch of budget stuff. We have a bunch of budget things behind the thing. But one of the bonuses you get, the budget spreadsheet template with instructional videos for how to fill it out., uh, uh, for you so you can play with your own numbers and fiddle with your own numbers. Um, the third is you'll get a digital copy of Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter. Uh, this is very, very helpful, especially, uh, if you have the— because we have the, uh, PDF in the, in the group because, um, like people reference it all the time. They want— someone said they wanted to be able to read the thing that we were talking about. And basically all of the things we talk about in the campaign on some level are in the book and people like to reference it and go back and forth. There are two paid-in-full bonuses. One is my two solo books, How to Become a Successful Author and How to Build a Creative Career, and then my copy vault. And like, this is something I kind of am I didn't realize how important it was to show the examples, like to show like actually, like literally I talk about examples, I show you behind the scenes of the examples, but actually what Monica's done is she's taken two of my— or she— what she's going to do is I've sent her like 90 pages of stuff. He did. Yeah, it's so much, it's so much. And she's just going to like translate that into all of the marketing things that we talk about and give you guys examples and templates and all this kind of stuff.

Like, telling you, people are in the group, this is the thing they talk about most.

Yeah, they all want this right now. I'm like, it's not— June is the month that we're doing this, so they're really excited to have these, um, these examples.

Um, yeah, yeah, that's got to be like one of the first, like, one of the next things things that I do after this thing closes. Um, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, okay, so then, um, oh, you can keep going actually.

And then we have, uh, we unlocked a bonus, which is a May membership call, uh, where we're going to do a live Q&A if we hit 100 people in the thing, which was our top, top, top line number. Like, we were like, 100 is about the most we can handle. Um, then, uh, I will do I'll do this for 6 months. I will do a live office hour Q&A once a month for the next 6 months.

Yeah. Can I talk about the value of that? Because the value of that too, in my view, is that, you know, like, you're probably not— like, you may be launching a Kickstarter campaign in May and Russell's doing a call then, but you also You might not be, you probably aren't if you're just watching this and like thinking about Kickstarter. So for him to do it for 6, you know, for another 5 months is pretty cool. So that means that the month that you are launching, like you will be able to get on a call with Russell, which like he normally charges $350 for an hour consulting call with him, but you'll be able to get on the call and like you're not alone. It's not like a one-to-one, but you can ask him all sorts of questions about your Kickstarter campaign. You can have his eyes looking at it. And like, honestly, I'll probably join him like on at least most of the calls, if not all of them, though I want him to be able to have it on his schedule so that it's not taxing for him. But like, you know, if I'm available, I'm probably going to join the call too. But yeah, you'll be able to have him like looking at your campaign in real time, which, and like just telling you how to fix it basically, which I like when we did our campaign, I found it just absolutely invaluable. You know, he, he's just, he can fix your campaign really fast basically.

So like why wouldn't you want that? And on top of that, not just the, not just the one year before your campaign's live, but like while it's live. And if it's broken in some way, like, or it's not working, like for sure, like some people will— that will happen to some people. And we're very lucky it hasn't happened yet. But, uh, we also don't know everyone that's launched because some people like, uh, ghost launch like behind the thing and we never know about it. And then they ask questions when it's launched. And I'm like, well, you didn't follow any of the templates, so like, right, thank goodness that you launched and it was successful. That was, that was, that was a touch and go there. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, the amount of—

oh, hi Craig!

Hello, can you hear me?

I can.

Oh, I just love your baby sleeping on you. Yeah, mine's too big for that, but that was like My favorite thing ever.

Yeah, as I said, I get, I get real busy when I first get home on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks, thanks so much for joining us, um, with everything you've got going on.

I know it's crazy, but we did, we really wanted to talk to you, you know. Yeah, uh, so I have your campaign pulled up. Craig, do you want to tell us a little bit about it? And it must be fresh in your mind because I believe it just finished like a couple of days ago.

Yes, yes, it did. So I've, I've ran, I don't know, about 5 campaigns before. Like one was like, I don't know, 2016, 2015, a long time ago when I didn't know anything. So that one didn't do anything. Yeah, that was, that was a Starlin one. Before I really got published. And then my Ghost Probe series, when I ran that one, that was when I started studying Kickstarter more with Dean Wesley Smith's free course and trying to understand it as good as I could and studying different Kickstarters. And then I tried to go too fast from there, going straight to an audiobook at a much higher level, and I realized it's better just to go low and then hit those stretch goals instead. And then had another little play around with trying to do nonfiction. We don't really talk about nonfiction that much, so I didn't do anything. But then I got back on track with the last two Dragonia books. So you see the second to the top one there, that's Dragonia Book 4, the fourth of the fifth book in the series. That was successful enough to where I was able to pay for the editing. And this most recent one where I've tried to just keep on, you know, getting better. Um, and in the beginning I used the Dean Wesley Smith model, and then I read you guys' book and tried to improve it further. Um, and, and then you guys', you know, 5-day Kickstarter crash course. Um, and then I was just trying to be able to keep on leveling it up, and I was finally able to get into the accelerator. Um, finances on my end are a bit tight. I'm a single-income family. 3 kids and not really all much of a paying day job, you know. So, but I was able to make it work, get a couple of extra formatting jobs to get it, and you guys really helped me out. What's interesting is when I first came in, I already had a, you know, some of a Kickstarter background. I know a lot of people came with no Kickstarter experience at all, so I was trying to start from the beginning looking through all those videos and everything, and I'm very much a chronological person. I was trying to start at the beginning and get through all this, but I'm like, this is a lot of stuff I know. I need to keep on going, trying to get to the part that I need to improve. Yeah, but you guys, you know, saw that and you guys were able to just, you know, look at my campaign and kind of help me pick it apart and see what I could adjust on the fly.

Yeah, so this is, I mean, it's pretty remarkable. I mean, from, I think you had like $500 for the last campaign, something like that, to like That's, this is a 10x pretty much increase in one campaign. Like, yeah, one campaign to the next campaign. Yeah, from one campaign to the next. Can you just talk a little bit about like what, like what, like what did you do differently in this campaign that like helped you like 10x? Like what were the most impactful things that helped you 10x your, your thing besides the accelerator, of course, which Yeah, yeah.

Um, so a couple of things that I'm trying to— I try to figure out better reward tiers from, from the past, you know. Um, in the beginning, my reward tiers for my higher level stuff was like, you know, hey, you know, $500, I'll let you get eaten by a dragon, you know. And, you know, like, no one wanted to eat by a dragon. Maybe I should have said, you know, I'll put your ex being eaten by a dragon. Maybe that would have done better.

I don't know.

But, uh, I would pay for that, right? So, uh, but what I did on this one is instead I had a $500 level that was like, hey, here's all of my books. You know, I have, um, a couple different— a couple trilogies, uh, I have like 3 sci-fi books, I have 2 separate fantasy trilogies, plus these 5 Dragonia books. I was like, here, take all of it, including all the ebooks, all the paperbacks, and, and all the audiobooks, everything I got of my, you know, my complete collection. And I was actually able to get 5 people on board with that. So I think 2 of them, 2 or 3, were on the original, you know, before I renamed it from, you know, the clever names to the more practical names for understandability. And then a couple more once I renamed it. So the total of 5 people, so 5 times $500, I mean, that was about half my campaign of just those big super backers. Yeah, and having a better reward for that, that $500 level definitely, uh, helped this one level up. Um, I think played a good part, um, as well as having all the different paperback series as add-ons. Um, and then the different levels of just get the first Dragonia book or the most recent one or all, you know, 5 of them in paperback. Um, and I even put all 5 of them in hardback as well and had a couple people do that. So having more of a better level of the Advanced rewards really helped out compared to the last campaign for sure. I believe that played a big part besides cleaning up my story page.

Yeah, I remember one of the things that I said was, um, I don't understand what worm means, like our hatchling or all of these things. And so you definitely went through and I look at it now and I'm like, oh yeah, I know exactly what I'm getting. Like, yeah, like there's a 50 book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's— I want 1 to 5, there it is. Like it makes it so much easier to do, to just see all of this stuff. And I love that you did the all-in because so often people are like, no one's going to spend $500 on my books.

And then you're like, I mean, that's what I thought when I first put it up there. I'm like, I'll put it up there and see. I was like, no one's going to get this. You know, the one person got, I'm like, oh my gosh, one person's going to get it. And then it's 5 now.

And I'm like, I'm just flabbergasted. That's incredible. Yeah. I, I didn't realize you had done this, but it looks like you also, because that was one of the things that Russell said is, and this is his general message too, don't have cutesy names for your tiers. And so you kind of said, hey, I can't change my reward tiers at this point. And we said, well, you got 10 more days. It might still be worth it to retire because basically you can't change them after them after someone backed that. Yeah, which is good. Like, you know, you don't wanna— like, that's a good thing for Kickstarter to do. So did you— so it seems like you did end up updating them and just retiring the cutesy named ones.

Yeah, I copied them. I copied each one that hadn't been backed. I copied it, renamed it, and then I retired the, the old one.

The old one. And you can see like this, where $25, 3 backers, and then like whatever, $20, $25, like, or is it $20, $24, like a backer. So like, yeah, there's— I mean, you get a lot more from, from just making it less— being boring, I think. Like, being boring is just— it becomes a better thing. But I also see that all of your stretch goal perks, like, look, there's so many dragons in all of these dragons, dragons, dragons. Like, they're all like, you know, it's all like that continuity of like, hey, here are my dragons, here's the books you get for dragons. And also our stretch goals are you get dragons or like more stuff, the books will be bigger and better.

Yeah, that was another thing I did as the campaign was getting later is I changed up my stretch goals a little bit once I saw where it was going and what I could actually obtain. You know, I kind of, you know, had a couple okay stretch goals and a couple outlandish stretch goals, and as I saw where it was going, I made the adjustments and, you know, what could I do for this. So I did go through and edit that to make it easier for the stretch goals.

Yeah, here you go, stretch goals. That's very cool. I know, I always tell people that, like, you know, not to announce your stretch goals too early because you might get some crazy crazy thing, but you had an opt thing of like you had $2,000 already into the thing beforehand, so like you kind of had to already, um, uh, do your stuff. But I like the, the, the, the, the audio that you were produced. You came just short of the, the— this audio, although like maybe it's so close you're gonna do it anyway, I don't know.

But, um, yeah, I'm working to get everything else done first and seeing where I'm at, and I'm gonna try and get that bit book. I just won't give it to the backers.

I'll just let them know that it when it's ready. Well, I will tell you that, like, that happened to me. I was going to write a, I was going to write a fifth book and give it to all my backers for free if we did $10,000. We hit $9,935. And so instead they all just had to buy that book and they all bought it. And so that was like, okay, like they, uh, instead of, instead of getting, instead of me giving it away for free, they all bought the book and that was also good.

Yeah. So what are your, like, I mean, I know you've talked about a lot of stuff already. What are your plans going forward with Kickstarter? Do you already know what your next campaign is?

How is it fitting into your author career? Oh, yeah, so I mean, I just see this as my third successful Kickstarter. The first two, I mean, the first successful one was just over $700. It paid for editing. The last one was just over $5,000. Barely paid for editing, almost paid for editing, close enough. And then this one was able to, you know, so I've already enjoyed the platform. I've already done it a couple of times. Just to be able to help afford editing and cover art, to be able to not immediately be in the hole every time. I definitely think I'm going to be doing this on every major launch and maybe even some of my other ones, just kind of a short launch. Like I'm working on a book right now, for a, uh, for a game company publisher that they let me, you know, actually publish up myself. And, uh, I'm thinking about, you know, maybe just doing like a short 14-15 day Kickstarter, just trying, you know, they're taking care of the COVID for him, but, uh, that, you know, I have to take care of the editing and stuff. So I'm thinking, you know, I'll do a short launch on that maybe, you know, after I clear it through them. Um, and then my next series, I already have the, the next preview page up, which there's nothing nothing actually there. I actually got to iron out all the rewards and everything, but I already got the next, you know, follow me page up on Kickstarter for my next fantasy series that I have 5 covers for, um, and it's already got over, over 20 followers. Um, so I'm just, uh, I gotta write those books first, but I want to get the follow page up, you know, while Brandon Sanderson was bringing everyone there. Yeah, yeah, like, see my covers and at least follow it. Um, but yeah, so I'm definitely doing this for, for each, each launch. I do think that it's, it's a great way to, to start not in the hole, you know, get paid for the editing, pay for the covers, and any sales that you get from there on out are all profit.

What would you say to someone who was hesitant on trying Kickstarter?

Well, I would say that person, have you heard of Craig A.

Price?

Because no one else has. And yet here I am, $6,000. I kicked his ass in my last campaign. I mean, you know, I, I did not expect to, to hit anything big. You know, Brandon Sanderson brought a lot of people there. I mean, 40— what, $42.5 million or something he left with. You know, someone like Sherrilyn Kenyon is doing it now, and she's, you know, going through the roof. Uh, she won't touch Brandon Sanderson, but she's, she's already at what, like $200,000 or something, um, for, for some of the specialists hardcovers for her stuff. These keep— these big authors keep on coming. They're gonna keep on bringing more and more readers to the platform. And I mean, just be able to pay for that cover art and editing, it's definitely worth it. It's worth— plus, I love doing conventions. I love going to book signings, signing books, talking to readers. This is a very similar experience, just, you know, behind, behind the screen. And it's a lot of fun for me to be able to talk to, talk to the readers and sign books and mail them out.

Yeah, that is a really fun part. I, I really enjoy that part too, of just like signing and mailing. I didn't think I would, but it's been really, it was really fun.

That's— I gotta show this because I love Cheryl and Kenyon. I'm supposed to be on a show. So like $800,000 she's done so far in— oh, I'm sorry, she's been live. So there you go. Will White did one. Uh, uh, now, uh, Sherrilyn Kenyon's doing one. So like, I agree, it's like each of these ones validates that the platform is worth, um, it like is worth going, uh, uh, uh, to. Yeah.

And the best part about, about these big authors coming that a lot of people don't think about is, you know, I see some authors, you know, crying out about, you know, well, they're taking readers away, and they're only for 30 days, right? They're bringing readers, they're there for 30 days, and then they're gone.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so ridiculous because like, look, they're like, there's like 10 to 15 fiction books on Kickstarter at any time. Like, like, you're not competing with very many people. And I, yeah, like, like, every—

everything has an end date because it's only like the most you can be is 60 days.

So yeah, well, and like, I like when people are on Kickstarter backing one project, they're gonna back more than one project.

I'm gonna back all 15, but they're going to be looking at all of them, right? Yeah, right. And like, you have Sherilyn Kenyon, and like, you go on Amazon and you're competing against your— all of Sherilyn Kenyon. I'll definitely pick competing against— if I have to compete with somebody, which I don't think it's a competition, but like, I will compete with 4 Sherilyn Kenyon books over 40 Sherilyn Kenyon books plus Brandon Sanderson books plus Stephen King books, which is what Amazon is like, you know, even if every top, top tier author was on Kickstarter in one month, like they are only probably doing one book at a time instead of the rest of their entire catalog, which is, you know, just what you're competing with every day on. We haven't talked talked about this. I'm shocked. I'm shocked we haven't talked about this all month. But like, one of the things that Kickstarter allows you to do is pull yourself out of that competition with all of the other authors, you know, the other 3,000 books they're launching. And all— and not only that, but the other 5 million books that are on Kickstarter— on Amazon right now. And you're able to— one of the things that I think is very reminiscent of shows and Kickstarter is like you are in this kind of ecosystem where like only the other— you're only competing with the other things that are inside that ecosystem as opposed to like everything. Like even if, even if the star of Arrow is signing autographs, like there's people that are not there. Like there's most of the human— most of humanity is not there. And in the same way, most authors are not on Kickstarter at at the same time. So I mean, frankly, I would love to see 150 campaigns launching at any one time in the fiction category because like I know what happens in comics and like everyone is like cross-promoting each other and it like helps everyone. So like, so yeah, I'm, uh, I'm with you and I'm excited because I'm going to get off this and go buy some Sherrilyn Kenyon books now.

People don't think about just the, the level of support on Kickstarter, or like this, the person that comes to Kickstarter for a book, they're the person who wants that kind of close relationship interaction with the author, whether it's a signed book or to be able to get the ebook or audiobook personally from the authors. Same kind of people that come to conventions, which is why I compare the two a lot. I think that they're very similar, but the main— the other main difference is that I've seen is the amount per pledge on average. I mean, you're talking about a reader going to buy your entire collection from Amazon. I mean, 5 books, say my ebooks, $3.99 apiece. I mean, what am I actually getting? I'm not getting 70% from Amazon because Amazon doesn't actually give 70% to people. They give 70% minus whatever the cost is to download the book. So I'm getting, depending on the size of my files, 50 to 70% profit. With Kickstarter, my average pledge per backer was over $80 because I had 5 of those $500, you know, orders. So the average was $80 a person, and that's, that's a pretty incredible number when you think about the average per person you get from Amazon.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 100%. Okay, so like you gotta sleep baby. I see it, uh, see it dancing up, trying to come back. And, uh, uh, so before we let you get out of here, I wanted to see, like, if you— what would you say to somebody who was hesitant, on the fence about, uh, joining the Accelerator?

Um, there's, there's a lot of information in there, and, and, you know, it could be overwhelming. I know when I first stepped in, and you guys are still, you know, getting everything organized, you guys are starting to get get it in the Teachable. Yeah, Teachable. Yeah, you're starting to get Teachable now to where it's a little bit easier to look at. But the value is definitely there. I went, you know, I struggle with how much money I make with my family and everything. So, you know, it's a little harder for me to try kind of join last minute right before the deadline, you know, but I mean, I've made back every penny I was able to save for that. You know, not yet, next couple, whenever Kickstarter pays me, it's back. But I doubled my campaign from $2,000 to almost $6,000 just by making the adjustments and tweaks. And that was not everything. I was at a live campaign, I had only 10 days left, 12 to 10 days left, and I adjusted what I could. You guys picked apart my campaign a little bit, I adjusted a little bit more. And this next campaign is going to do even better because I'm going to be able to get all that stuff in fully absorbed before I make it live. Yeah, it's definitely worth the investment. Um, you know, authors are all big about ROI. I think Kickstarter is one of the best ROIs just by the simple fact, like I was saying, per backer, $80 compared to per reader on Amazon that you might get spending out big of a series you have, anywhere from $5 to $20 a person, you know, it's a huge difference.

Absolutely. Monica, do you have any final thoughts or final questions for Craig?

Yeah, I just want to thank you for coming. I know you got your sweet sleeping baby, but, and also thank you for sharing what you did. I agree, your next campaign is gonna blow this one out of the water, basically, just with all the, you know, resources and stuff and all the experience you have as well.

So thanks for coming and thanks for making this work. Yeah, thanks so much.

It's great to see you and I look forward to seeing you inside the group. Yeah, sounds great. Thank you all so much for having me.

Thank you for the course and everything.

You're welcome.

Bye.

So that's it, huh? That's it. That's the last one. So now we can talk about the course one more time. I think makes some sense to final up on. We just kind of talked about it about 10 minutes ago, right before he went in. But I still, like, I've been asking the last couple of people, but like, what would you say to someone who's hesitant about joining the course, who still watched the last month and they're still hesitant?

Like, what would you say to them? Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of would say like the same thing I've said to— I've like said it so many times actually during this, so I wish it was original. Not during this, but like just throughout the month. I mean, the biggest thing is like, you know, we like— I'm always surprised like to see people who like actually are, you know, they are excited about Kickstarter and like maybe decided not to join or like, you know, so there's those people and then there's people who are kind of like, they're not sure that they would ever want to do a Kickstarter. And I think that's like, so like, like the people who are excited but like didn't join, I mean, the thing I would say to them is like, we, we like watch our, we watch our personal numbers carefully and we to see like a clear delineation between people who like haven't read our book and launched and, you know, completed, like either completed or sometimes didn't fund versus people who read our book, you know, who they've done, they've done, you know, decently, they fund whatever versus people who joined the program who then just blow the other two groups out of the water. So like I would love to say that the book is enough like that, you know, like I would, I would love to say like, here's a $10 investment, it's 400 pages. Like, and I think the book is fantastic. Like, it is such a great book. If you are on a budget, read the book for sure. But if you are not on a budget or if you can afford to get into the program in any way, and we do have the payment plans, $79 for 12 months, it's a really generous payment plan. So like you can get access for $80 and you can go launch your campaign like this. Like you could launch it like this month and like make back like everything you need to pay for the program. So, you know, I just see like, like why to me, if you are excited about Kickstarter, if you've already read our book, like, I mean, you just saw like Craig, he doubled his campaign, like more than doubled his campaign. And like, sure, yeah, like 10 days. And sure, he may have, you know, he would have landed probably at like maybe he would have landed at $3,500 or, you know, somewhere around there. But like we literally saw in the middle of his dead zone where he is not supposed to be raising very much, we literally saw his campaign go from $2 grand to 4 grand. So it doubled within like 2 days. And it was because of this, it was because of the Kickstarter accelerator and like the work that Russell did with him. So like the 20-minute video that Russell did for him. So it's like, I do see people, I do like, we know that that type of person, like there's like a pro, you know, we have like our profiles and stuff. But I'm always like, why Like, why doesn't this person do this? Because, like, literally there's so much evidence that, like, even if you're doing great on your own, like, we, we could help you double your campaign. And that— I think that's why I would say that person. So the person who's not sure if they want to do Kickstarter, I would just zoom out and say, like, are you interested in direct sales in any way? Like, are you interested in selling on your website? Are you interested selling at events? Are you interested in doing signings? Are you interested in, um, yeah, just, just any version. Like, are you— do you want to be on Patreon? Do you want to be on Substack, Medium, Kickstarter? Like, wherever. Because if you want to do direct sales in any way, Kickstarter is like one of the best gateways to it. You can— you don't have to set up your own website, so you can just use a platform still. The platform will bring you, you know, about— so like Russell always says, like, if you can bring 25 people to Kickstarter, Kickstarter can find you another 25. And like, we've talked to so many people who are like, yeah, it brought me 50% of my people. And that number just proves out. So it's not just Russell's data that shows that, it's like everybody's data. So it's like, why, you know, like, like, it's a great platform to test the waters on direct sales. And, um, you know, like, I— like, my question for KU people, because like there are lots of— there are lots of KU people who are very successful, but I also feel like there are lots of KU people who are like middling successful. Like maybe you're making $1,000 through KU or something like that, and it's like, try Kickstarter. Because if you could make 10 grand on Kickstarter in a month, um, would it be worth it to you pull your books from KU and then make like $15,000 or $20,000 the next time you run. So I see that a lot too, where it's like direct sales, like lots of people compare like KU earnings to like wide earnings and say like, oh, they're about the same. It's like a hand, you know, a toss-up. But it's like when you factor in direct sales to that equation, you're, you know, KU you're kind of missing out on a lot, I think, if you can do direct sales well. So that would be my thing for the person who's like, eh, not doing Kickstarter, not interested. Yeah, if you, if you want to do direct sales, come join the program. We actually, that's basically what we're teaching, like through a, through the lens of Kickstarter, but we are teaching direct sales.

Yeah, direct sales and website sales and funnel channels and all of the events and all of that stuff. And, you know, there are other direct sales platforms like Etsy, but the thing about Kickstarter is like you were only competing with the people who are live now, or like you just own— like, like Etsy will, will share, will put you up against like some product that's been there for like 10 years or a year, probably not 10 years, but like a year that's doing really well. And like all you get is 60 days at max on Kickstarter. Starter, which has its beautiful parts and its not beautiful parts. But for like a new author, you know, you're not competing against every Stephen King book and every successful indie book. There's not stuff to comp to as much, but there's definitely things that you can, um, like there's definitely an advantage there, uh, there as well. I mean, and I am, I am legitimately shocked consistently how much I learn inside the platform, even if it's just rehashing things that I haven't thought about in a long time. So I'm curious, Monica, as we go out of here, like, what is the thing you pull out that you have learned the most in this group? Or what is the benefit this accelerator has given to you?

I think for me, it's really So like when we were doing our campaign, the first, the first and only one I've done, I thought it would be ridiculous if we hit 10K. Like Russell's like talking about it, like let's try to hit 10K. And I'm like, I can't imagine hitting 10K on this book because it's like so niche. I'm thinking of retailers, of course, because that's my experience. And I'm just like, like, Russell, I don't think it's going to work. Like, that was kind of how I felt. I don't know if I said that to you, but I was like, this book is going to sell like 50 copies. Like, I was just like, this isn't going to work. But then you were kind of showing me the math and I was like, I mean, maybe. And then I was like, but no authors buy paperbacks anymore. Like, there were just so many blocks for me. And so, like, seeing our campaign do $21,500, that was pretty eye-opening for me. And also just seeing like, man, if I had done a bunch of stuff differently, it could have been like $40K. I really think it could have been like $40K or $50K. But first campaign, I don't know what I'm doing. So I do have Russell and that's a really huge advantage, but still like didn't know what I was doing. So I think that's what it's given me is just, just seeing, you know, and also seeing it gave— it just showed me that like Kickstarter is actually a really great place to invest because I really thought it was going to be like a one and done for me as well. I was like, yeah, like maybe I'll do like a campaign a year. But seeing it now, I'm like, I can see like I could probably make make 6 figures on Kickstarter, like, just on its own. And then I know how to do retailers. So, like, go, you know, go use that money and, like, make more. And so I just see the path, like, even on the fiction side, I'm like, I mean, I could probably get, like, a $5K or $10K campaign, like, probably, like, probably right out, right out of the gate at this point, just from, like, everything Russell has taught me and everything I've learned. Through like teaching the material myself and like being in the group. And so it just, yeah, just showed me what was possible and like how it's just, you know, it's like the first stream of income. Like Dean Wesley Smith kind of coined that phrase. Well, I know Russell, you talk about it, but in my mind, he like, that was like always his core point is that it's Kickstarter is a first income stream. And so I I see it now as like, why wouldn't I just do this? Like, it's probably a six-figure thing for me on the fiction side, even if I like committed to it. So I don't know. How about you?

I would love to know what it gave you. What it showed me not to get too like up my own self. About it, but like the system, like Kickstarter can work for anything. Like not even my system. Like it's a system that like really I may have, may be able to exploit, but it's like this in a unique way. But like it works for any campaign. Like we've yet to see a campaign that can't at least raise a couple grand from like $1,000 to $2,000. And like, that's life-changing money. I mean, $1,000 is like, if I could show every author how to break even on their production costs, it would literally change the industry like overnight. Like, because most people don't invest in books or in their career because they see that it's a, it's a, it's a money sink, right?

Like, the math, the math is too hard unless you have, like, thousands of readers. It really is. Like, when you look at the math, it's like, this, this doesn't even make sense because you, like, you need, like, several thousand readers, um, in order for it to make sense as a career.

Yeah, I, I learned that the hard way when trying to do retailers the way that they take we did a retail list in 2019, and I was like, oh, no wonder everyone hates writing, because like, A, it's just a bunch of graphs, and B, it's like you lose money constantly because you're not— like, there's no control. So like, I kind of ferreted back into like my hole of like Kickstarter, and like, you know, doing that, we raised $70 grand 2 years ago, $80 grand this, the, the, the year after that, and we're already at over $50 grand. Like, I literally haven't launched any of these books on retailers. Like, or like, I launched the comic books because there don't— there's no comic book market on retailers. But like, I haven't launched any of the— literally zero novels have gone on retailers, um, that weren't on retailers in January 1st of 2020. Because like I didn't see, like I was like, I need different things to make it work on retailers, one of which being like a series that is long enough that I can run ads to and lose my shirt. But there's enough books that I will make more money, enough money on it. Like, and that's, you know, that's the thing that most authors don't have. They don't have like, they don't have 10 books that they can write. Like, and I don't either. Like I don't have 10 books that I can write and just lose money on and then over and over again. But like going to Kickstarter, like I can, I can do better than break even. And like, it is, it is very, it is very shocking to know how many authors just lose their shirt and still do it. Like they'll spend $2,000, $5,000 and make $1,000. And they'll just like, they have a job or have a thing, or, but like, like what I have found, even the most generous author who loves their books so much that they don't even mind losing money will eventually give up because there's not an audience for it. Like, if not overall as an author, on a series that may be very good. And, or they will just abandon potential ideas because they're not in the genre that they're known for. And again, this all goes back to the idea that like authors in general do not know how to break even on their own work. And not only that, but are taught to lose money on their work for a long time, right? For like years. Yes. So that they can build up a back catalog that then they can make money on and recoup.

It's like, totally, it's like actually crazy. I was thinking, because I come from the startup world, and it's like 1 in 10 startups actually, um, go on, you know, go on to be huge. So like 1 in 10 startups become like Uber or whatever, right? Um, and then like 5 or 6, you just don't lose money, and then 3 or 4, like, you're gonna lose your whole investment if you're like an investor. And I feel like that's like the author world 2, except like it's even worse.

It's like 1 in 100 is like, you're like, you know, like, like, it's not even Sheryl and Kenny. Like, most of these people are hoping to be the 1 in 100 that just like can subsist on their income. Yeah.

Like, you're hoping to be like a Craig Martell or like a Michael Anderlecht.

Yeah. That's like 1 in 10,000 or so. And like, even Mike's— even Michael says, like, he said he had to write like 50, 20 books to 50K. That's the whole process to like get even hope to raise a decent amount of money is like 20 books is what he assumed would be the case. And like, that is a broken, flawed system. And the longer I do Kickstarter and the more of these people like Jenny and like Sarah and like Craig and all these people that were like, oh, they're good writers. Like, they should be making, like, maybe not a living, but I still think a living, but they should be able to, like, break even on the cost of their quite good books. Like, I haven't read all of their books, but I read Jennifer's books, like, stays with me. Like, it's a real good book for, like, the kind of book that it is. Like, if you like that kind of book, it's a frigging great book. And like, she should at least be able to break even. I'm not saying like make a fortune on it because it's a, it is a weird book, but like you should be able to at least reasonably expect if you put a great book out into the world that has, and her book has a good cover, it has a good blurb. Like it's, it's got a, a, in the narrator, I think is like, does Red Dead Redemption. Like, is that like, you should just be able, if you, if that is your thing, like to be able to reasonably expect to break even. And then on some projects that you make, reasonably expect to make good money. Like, again, maybe not full-time money, but like enough money that you can take your family out to like to dinner on a reasonable basis and do all of that stuff. And the thing that the Kickstarter— that the thing that Kickstarter, that Kickstarter group has shown me, if nothing else, is that a lot of these people who thought their careers were worthless, that they were bad writers, that people didn't care, like were just on the wrong platform. Like they were, it had nothing to do with it. Like there's nothing they could have done with those books to make them successful. Like it'd be like going to an ice cream shop and trying to sell spaghetti. Like they're just the wrong. You might be making the most bomb spaghetti in the world, but like people are not going to the ice cream shop to find spaghetti. And so, you know, to watch all of these people like in shock that like people actually like care about their work. Yeah, go ahead.

No, that's it. It's been very rewarding. Yeah, it's like so heartwarming to to see people who just, yeah, like kind of like you described, like just haven't had a lot of success with their work and then just, you know, like, like, yeah, like $2,500 or even like $2,500, $4,000, $5,000. It's actually a life-changing amount for so many authors. And having like, like even having like 80 backers, that's a life-changing number of sales. For so many authors. And then you can take the things that you learn from that and, you know, sell more direct stuff, sell better on retailers even, because all, all the sales and marketing that you learn through your Kickstarter campaign and business that you learn through your Kickstarter campaign is just going to make you more successful as an author. Like, kick— like, there— like, for a lot of people in this group, like, Kickstarter could completely go away. And those authors still have a better sense of how to improve their author careers. They would, they would find ways to sell their books without Kickstarter even. And I think that's like a real transformation that I don't see in a lot of other, you know, a lot of other areas of the industry or in a lot of other like programs I just don't see people like just completely transforming their understanding of marketing, sales, business, and like really like why their books, why people love their books. Yeah.

And I mean, you take like a Mark Dawson course and like, I like Mark Dawson's course, like, but his ads course is not something you can just put $5,000 in tomorrow and get $10,000 out at the end of the month.

Like you're talking about like with this Kickstarter thing, you could literally spend $800 now. Now.

And you could actually just spend $80 now. Yeah, you could spend $80 now and make $5,000 by the end of this month with no other investment. Like, I mean, we're probably going to need to invest. I mean, we're assuming you have like a cover and all of this other stuff, but like you could like have that kind of, you just, it's, it's not impossible to do that with Mark Dawson. Like an ads course or any other course, like theoretically that could happen, but like the amount of money you would have to front to end up with $8,000 at the end of it is a lot of money. It's a lot of thousands of dollars, most likely. Yeah. Whereas you're talking about like, you know, Jenny spent, you know, spent money to get into the accelerator and like 4 months later she had $6,000. Like she didn't spend. A bunch of extra money. Like, she may have— I think she bought like cover, like certain pieces of it, but like, oh yeah, this piece is gonna want anyway, right?

And her profitability is a different— like, she had $6,000 in revenue, right? Um, which is— and, and like, she, she, um, she would have been like really actually quite profitable, but she decided to take the money, which I still think she was very profitable on her campaign. She decided to take the remaining money, not for herself, but to put into the audiobook. And so like, if she, if she had not done, you know, that's what she wanted to fund. Same with Craig. Craig was pretty much the same thing. Like, he, you know, he wanted to hit $6,000 so he could take like all the extra money that is essentially his profit, but he was going to put it into the audiobook. And like, that, that's perfectly fine. Um, but to me, that's like, like, I think those campaigns are actually still profitable. Yeah, um, you know, and like you covered, like you said earlier, like you're selling, you're selling X to cover the production cost of Y and, um, get that in the, in the black before you do, and, you know, before you launch anything else.

So yeah, I mean, that's business. Business is spending money on products that are available today, on products that are coming that will be better and more profitable for you, hopefully. And sometimes you win on that and sometimes you lose. But I mean, I've taken all of these courses, Monica, and like, I like all of the courses, but like, it is shocking to watch so many people in such a small amount of time make life-changing money through just putting a book they were already going to put on retailers onto Kickstarter. Like, these are not people who are making a whole new thing. Like, these are people that are like, well, this book is already edited with a cover and everything. Maybe I just do a new cover, or I do something different, or I change my messaging, and boom, like, they're making $1,000, $2,000, $6,000 on this thing and going into their campaigns now free and clear. And I just, I cannot stress enough, like, once you learn how to break even on on your books, it is life-changing. It is the secret, because the best anyone can ever, like, tell you you're going to do is break even. Like, that's the best any publisher will tell you they can hope for a book. They hope for a hit. They do everything possible. They make the books the best they can. But all that they are striving for on every book is to break even for long enough that they find a hit among them and that will take, that'll pay for the rest of it. And so if all you can learn is like, I had a metaphysical book, like the one I was talking about earlier where like the angel comes down and tells the guy that he's about to exit the universe and only has a week left to live. Like, I was just like, yeah, but I mean, I don't know how much that'll make, but like I'll break even. Like I'll make $1,000 on that book. And like it literally changes everything when you're just like, That's a silly idea I have in my head. Yeah, I can, but I make money on it if I make it. Whereas opposed to like, oh, do I really want to make that book? And like, it's never going to sell because it's a standalone. Like, I'll maybe sell 50 copies and I'll have— instead of having to invest in like $1,000, it's like, yeah, I'll take a month of my life to write it and I maybe not make any money, but I won't lose any money either. So yeah, that's the kind of— I could talk about that stuff forever, but we have been on this for a long time. So one more pitch for the accelerator and then we'll say goodbye because like this is our last chance. Like this is, this is the last time we are going to be live during this thing and I figure we should at least do one more final like piece of this and then we can all go and sleep for the next 10 years. Do I just show like, this is basically, we fixed Craig's campaign here.

So you can see the before. Okay, that's like super crazy. Yeah, it's just crazy. Like, look at the— I think this graph is like just so—

it's incredible. Like, it really is. So we're like, we fixed it like, I don't know, here somewhere like this, like right around area. Yeah. And so anyway, so that's crazy. So he joined the accelerator, which is this thing. It is a twice a year currently, uh, uh, Kickstarter intensive that will show you how to sell your books direct. Frankly, I mean, Kickstarter is the mechanism that we use. What we're really teaching is the sales and marketing strategies to make more money from your most ardent fans and sell your books on any platform, including your own, and make more money.

Yeah. Yeah. And the great thing about it is it doesn't take away from retailers. You can do it in addition to retailers. So it's just like an extra amount of, like, quite large sums of money revenue. Of course, we're talking about, you know, profit. Like, we try to be profitable on ours. We will teach you how to be profitable. And you, you know, you've got to— and we'll kind of serve as like the bumper lanes for you. If we see you doing things that are— if we see you making decisions that are less profitable, we will at the least point them out to you. So, you know, like whether— like, of course, it's still your choice. It's still your business whether you move forward. And like we said, you know, we understand why people make decisions like, oh, like I'm gonna do like an audiobook stretch goal, like that, if that was your goal, then yeah, it makes sense to take your essentially what I would call like your profits from the campaign and put them toward that. So, but yeah, we, you know, it's for, it's really for all sorts of authors. Like we think audience of zero authors are good in it. We think six-figure authors are good in it. So if you have a huge backlist, if you're wide, if you, um, if you're on retailers already, if you, uh, are in KU, like, like any of those scenarios.

If you have a campaign that's live right now, like, yeah, we talk about the cohort in the 4 months, but you have access to everything right now. Like, you can self-pace and like literally just like chug 2 days worth of Russell and Monica lessons without sleeping and get it all through if you want.

Yeah. Or you can also just post your questions in the group and we'll look at your campaign pretty— I mean, if you join right now, I probably won't look at your campaign tonight, but I'll probably look at it tomorrow and Russell—

I don't know.

I'll probably look at it tonight. Yeah, I was going to say I didn't want to say that, but I was like, yeah, I'll probably look at it tonight.

I might do a video tonight if you like.

I probably won't, but like, Russell will get off this call. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, like, we're very responsive. And so, I mean, we can help you turn around your campaign pretty quickly.

Yeah, we literally—

and I can prove that because we literally did it. Yeah, we've done that.

Yeah, we've done it multiple times for multiple people in the accelerator already this round. Yeah, so what do you get? You get access to all of the videos, group mentorship, um, way more group mentorship than like we should legitimately do because we just can't help ourselves. Like, we do more than we possibly can and should have the bandwidth for because we care that much. That is to our detriment. Like, to all— like, that is a negative thing that we are doing to ourselves, to this campaign, that we're trying to correct. But like, right now we're giving way too too much. And like, like, let that be like the incentive. Like, take the more that we can give you until we put up the roadblocks so we don't—

right?

Yeah. Accountability, not just with us but with the other people in your group. A community, an active Kickstarter community. No monthly or annual fees. That's the one thing is like you pay one time and then that's it. That may not always be the case, but, um, you know, what we want to do is is because Kickstarter is something once you learn it and you do the mechanisms, like you're going to know it forever. So it doesn't really behoove us to be like in 2 years to charge you more fees because like you will have learned what you need. So the community will not benefit by having you in there. So what we're probably going to be doing is just raising the price of the intro entry, everything until it gets to be an obscene level.

But then that would be great. A level commensurate with the value. Yes. Exactly. So yeah, yeah, so we will just keep raising the price. But yeah, we, we like to keep the people who we've trained well in the program because, um, they're— it's just valuable to everybody, valuable to them, and then valuable to the other people who are coming in.

So one thing that we also don't talk about is that I— me and Monica brought in some Kickstarter experts into the group as well. So like people who have done You talked to Jack, but a bunch of other people that like are, that literally also teach Kickstarter, that like, that have done $30,000, $50,000 Kickstarters, like they're in the group right now also that we seeded with after the last one just to make sure that like we were doing, like we had enough, like that there was enough good information out there. Right. We talked about building an, coming in from nothing. Like we teach you how to build an audience from scratch with our first bonus, teach you how to not go in the red with our second bonus. We give you a copy of the digital copy of the Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter book. There's two pay-in-full bonuses. One of them is my both audiobooks, both audiobooks for my, and ebooks for my two nonfiction books that I did without Monica. How to become a successful author and how to build a creative career. The one that wins, I think the winner of the bonuses is this copy vault where I sent Monica about 90 pages of my literal emails, like the actual emails that I sent, and she's going to go through and make it make sense on a plan with other stuff. I don't envy her doing that, but It's going to be really cool for people who get it. We unlocked our first special bonus, which is a mentorship call in May. Our second bonus is if we hit 100, I'm going to— we're going to record some videos for with me and Monica where we go through her campaign. We're going to do this regardless. So it's just like you get to see it if we hit 100. And also I'm going to extend that. May call 6 or 5 additional months into like October or November. So I'll be doing it until the next accelerator thing. And those are just the literal bonuses on top of, I mean, like probably like 50 videos at least. Yeah. So more than that, like, yeah, here's just this. Then we have just, these are videos and, and, and, and sheets and accountability posts and, uh, and, uh, PDFs and all of this stuff for every piece of your campaign. We've got vendors, vendor stuff, we've got a book exchange. We've— I mean, there's just so much, there's just so much. And most importantly of all of that stuff, that you get to join part of the community, which like is pretty special. I don't know how we got to be so lucky that people really love this program. I don't know how we got to be so lucky to like have such an amazing amazing group. I've tried it many times before. It has never worked until this moment. But like, the people are just so wonderful, right? And, and knowledgeable and giving with their time. And Kickstarter is a lonely place if you're going it alone. And not many people in publishing believe in Kickstarter still. A lot of people think that it's GoFundMe or some other thing.. So, like, you're joining a group of people who actually want to make Kickstarter work and also the clout to, like, be very successful authors. And so that's at kickstartyournovel.com/accelerator. It is only open until Sunday, which is in, what, 2 days from now?

2 days, yeah. 2 days from now. May 8th.

And then we'll close it on Monday. So, yeah. Yep. It literally will not be available until October. Like, so if you want to be part of it, you're like, I need 2 months. Join with the, join with the 12-pay and then pay it off early if you want to. But like, get in because once the things close, we are not opening it again. We have to spend all of our time helping, helping the people get through to their successful campaigns. Helping Monica launch. I've got a bunch of launches.

So that's my spiel. kickstartyournovel.com/accelerator. Anything to add, Monica?

No.

Well, so one thing I wanted to add, just about the community. So we do have a number of Kickstarter experts in there. If you're part of the group, you might not even realize that we did that several months ago. But, and we haven't seen— they're not posting regularly because they already know how to use Kickstarter. But I will say that we have seen them start to become more active, especially as people in their genre come in. So if you're like, you know, if you— who's the one friend you have who does like steampunk or like Gaslamp? Yeah, Madeline. Okay, so Madeline does Gaslamp. Right. Gaslamps. Like, it's a very niche kind of like steampunky, like Victorian era, I think. Great. Like, but, you know, I've noticed her pop-ups more because there's like a couple other people in there who are doing something similar. So I do think that those experts are going to become more active. So if you, if you are like, yeah, I write in this, you know, kind of unusual genre and I want to get to know people in my genre in Kickstarter. I think it's a really good opportunity to get in now, and I think those people will start to, they'll start to come out a bit more too, just when they see that, like, hey, there's other people in my genre that I can, like, be working with, and they'll be posting their stuff there.

And you'll be an expert too when other cohorts come in, so people will start looking to you as well. So like that's another thing. So I really hope to see you inside. We've done just so much, just so much. We've done so many live things and I'm so excited, but Monica, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for coming on this journey with me and for like convincing me to do all of the stuff that we've done together and I still don't understand how know it's worked as well as it has, but I'm very grateful that it has.

Yeah, I would, I would say the same thing, Russell. I'm so glad that we're, um, partnering on this stuff because it's like, it is kind of the dream team. We didn't know that we were the dream team, but it— we are.

Like, it—

like, everybody, you know, and we share a lot of mutual friends, so we, we chat about this kind of behind the scenes, but everybody's like, yeah, like, this is working, like, keep keep going, y'all. Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's really nice. Um, and it's like such a pleasure to work with you just because— yeah, I, I just, I, I, I adored like all your work before, and then now I get to like be part of it.

So yeah, and I adored all your work, which is super nice. And like Monica has the marketing background, I have the sales background, so really like it, it's, it's been very, very helpful. So on that note, I think we should, uh, say kickstartyournovel.com/accelerator. Thank you so much for coming, and we'll see you next launch.

Yep, see you later.