Copy This Content Strategy, It Will Blow Up Your Personal Brand

I'm so blessed to have my good friend Erwin McManus on today's show. Erwin is a best selling author. He sold millions of books. His latest one is the Seven Frequencies of Communication, which is a masterpiece. He's also a business coach and mentor to so many entrepreneurs throughout the world and he's probably one of the greatest communicators of our time.

Don't tell a story, relive the story.

He is the best person we could learn from in terms of content creation, speaking in terms of how to be a better storyteller, how to communicate our message and really make an impact, not just get views. Because I found that is the number one thing that will move your business results. Today's conversation is for anybody who's trying to build a personal brand, put out content and really move the needle. We're not just going to talk about tactics, we're going to talk about the real truth behind what will make you successful on stage or on video. So let's get into the conversation for people, just to get straight into it. For people who are building a personal brand, they're trying to put out content, they're trying to speak on stages, both live and virtual. What is the biggest mistake you're seeing them make today?

Well, I think the biggest mistake that doesn't show up right away, but it shows up over time is to create a brand that's actually bigger than you. A brand that really doesn't reflect who you are or the way you live. And you know, there's an aspect of any brand that's aspirational. But when you write books, they always tell you the best way to kill a book is to write a bad one and give it great marketing. Because if you give great marketing to a bad book, a lot of people read it up front. In fact, even with movies, one of the ways you can know that the production company knows it's bad is that they don't let anyone see it before it releases, when they know it's really good. They do a lot of pre releases and a lot of previews because they want to get great word of mouth. And so ironically, word of mouth can either kill you or help you, depending on the quality of the actual product. I attach it to a brand. The biggest mistake you can make is to focus on creating a great brand without creating a great product. And in that sense, you are the great product.

Yeah. With the personal brand, it's you. Correct.

Yeah. And so, you know, if you're going to create a brand of being an adventurer, you Better be taking some adventures if you're going to create a brand on being authentic and vulnerable, you better be authentic and vulnerable. So that. I think that's the greatest mistake, but it's also the greatest opportunity that you can build a great brand by being true to who you are.

Yeah. And so this is the biggest thing I see right now in terms of content creation and people who are at events and speak, they feel like. I just love the way that person is so real, just feel it. And authenticity. And so everybody keeps saying, or when they're like, hey, just be authentic. Be real. And like. But it's. It's a difficult thing to do.

It is. And by the way, it's one of the reasons I really liked you right away. And when we first met, I just felt like you're very authentic, very real. And the reason that is so magnetic is I felt like you were inviting me to get to know you, not to get to know an expression of you or a presentation of you. And I think that's why people actually are drawn to you and drawn to your messaging is how authentic you really are.

So then for the. And thank you for saying that. And I kind of just did that by accident. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't like a strategy.

Right. But authenticity is not a strategy. Correct.

That's. That's the bar.

Right.

But the thing is, is I was just tired of doing what other people told me to do and living in that, you know, lane in the business, corporate world, and I decided to do my own thing. And it just worked out because people, like. So that's the number one thing people say is, I love how you're just you. I love your authenticity. And they would like to do that themselves. All content creators like to do this because it connects you with the audience and it helps build your brand. It's one of the reasons why I love our mutual friend Chris Do.

I was thinking the same thing. Yeah.

He talks a lot about this being real and just being yourself, even at the expense of losing some people. Right. And so why is it that it's so difficult for the average person who's watching or listening to be authentic? Because it sounds like simple advice.

I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons. I think sometimes it's that we don't really know ourselves. It's hard to be authentic if you haven't really taken that deep, reflective look in the mirror to understand who you are and who you want to be, but also to have a sense of confidence that someone Will love you if they really see you and know you.

So it's a fear of rejection.

There is. It's a huge fear of rejection. I mean, imagine if you open yourself up and show your authentic self to someone. And it's not good enough for them. I mean, there probably is no more painful human experience. And so there's a part of us that always mitigates just a little bit of ourselves going, I really do want this person to like me. And the irony of it all is the best way to ensure that someone will like you Is for you to like them.

Wow.

And the moment you stop thinking about yourself, one, you become instantly more likable. But two, you actually naturally become authentic. Because you're not trying to figure out, who do I need to be in this moment.

You're just interested.

Yeah. You're just interested in that person. So you're not thinking about, how am I being seen? You're actually thinking about, am I seeing this person?

Yes. And so how does that translate to. When you're speaking in a room? You talk a lot about adapting to the audience. And maybe that audience is just you on the phone speaking to one, but you're trying to speak to many with your content. Maybe it's in a room of 10, 20 people or 100 people. So how does that same skill translate in those moments?

Yeah. You know, I've had the opportunity to write a little more than a dozen books. And when I was first writing, one of my editors would send me a note that drove me nuts. He kept saying, I need more Irwin here. And I'd read the section and I'm going, wait a minute. Isn't this me? And he kept saying, I need more Irwin. I need more Irwin. And finally he said, that doesn't help me. It's all Irwin. Some of it's good Erwin. Some of it's bad Erwin, you know? And I said, show me a section that is in your mind, Erwin, and show me a section that is not Irwin. And when he sent me the two sections, it became so clear. It was like looking in a mirror for the first time. Because the part where he said, this is Erwin. I was being honest and transparent and vulnerable and risking that my perspective would be rejected. And the part of me that wasn't Erwin, I was more calculated, a little bit more like an engineer. And I had everything in place. And it would be hard to argue with it, But I wasn't letting you see behind the thinking. And I realized that what I wasn't doing was risking telling the truth. And so I actually put a little sign on the wall whenever I'd write books that said, tell the truth. And I actually got that from Stephen King. And I was reading, I would read his book on writing over and over again. And I would tell myself, the hardest thing to do is tell the truth. And the reason it's so hard to tell the truth is we're not honest with ourselves. And I don't mean not telling a lie. Right. You know, but I think it's hard to tell the truth. And when you're struggling with authenticity, what you're not really doing first is being honest with yourself. Like, it's okay to go, wow, I really need people to like me, you know, at least it helps, you know, oh, that's why I do all these dysfunctional things. Oh, wow. I have this brokenness inside of me where I just need to be loved by strangers. I mean, what about us should want to be loved by strangers? But that's what fame is. Fame is a desperate need to be loved by people that you will never know.

Is it wrong to want to be quote, unquote, famous? Because I feel like all the influencers want to be.

They do all want to be famous. I don't want to put this in wrong and right. I want to put it in healthy and unhealthy. All right? And I think it's unhealthy to pursue fame because it's a terrible outcome goal, really. I think it's healthy to pursue, influence and impact the good you want to do in other people's lives. Because in that sense, fame is what you do for yourself, but greatness is what you do for others. And so if you focus on greatness, in a sense, how do I make the greatest contribution? How do I do the most good? How do I serve other people? I want people. I want you to have millions and millions of followers because I know that you're focused on helping other people. And so it's always going to have a flow outward. But people who are desperate for fame, they're thirsty for fame. All that flows inward. It's really all about what they're absorbing from that moment rather than what they're giving to the moment.

Yeah. And I think that's where I can feel the difference. I don't know if. My wife and I were just talking about this this morning. She goes, she said there's a term for this, but she said she can feel. Feel what somebody's intentions are, and occasionally she gets it wrong. And she doesn't want to tell Me, you know, we don't have to talk about those. But for the most time, she's like, do you ever wonder how I can feel? Because she'll tell me, hey, I don't really. Something rubs me wrong about that person. I'll be, what are you talking about, Whitney? What?

He's.

I think it's fine. He seems like a good dude. And then six months later, we'll find something out. And she's like, see, I told you. And I'm like, yeah, I guess I should listen more. But is that something that some. Some people can pick up or is it. Is it like, majority of people know the difference? Because I feel like there's a people who will fool you with their thing. They'll tell. They'll act like this is them, and they'll. And they're trying to serve the audience. And then you'll. Later you'll find out, well, that guy was actually just trying to build his own ego.

Yeah. I think there's two aspects. One is intuition, and the other one is trust. Some people are incredibly intuitive at reading people's intention, but just have a real natural ability for that. And it's really trusting your gut. Like, most of the time, when your wife told you that something in your gut had already told you that too, you just convinced yourself that there's more to that person than that. Does that make sense? So it's almost like if there are 10 aspects of someone, the person like your wife who reads it, they see that one aspect of. And they see it as defining the whole person. You see that one aspect, but you go, well, yeah, but they have these other six things that are awesome or these other five things that I should appreciate. And so I'm going to override what my instincts tell me about the one thing you know, and it's.

Where do you land on that? Which one do you see?

Well, the other side of it is trust.

Okay?

Some people are high trust, and some people are low trust. Some people engage people going, I trust you, and you have to prove to me that you're not trustworthy. Other people engage well, by saying, I don't trust anyone. And you have to prove to me that you're trustworthy. And so your wife sounds like a, I don't trust anyone, and you have to prove to me you're trustworthy. And you sound like, I trust everyone, and you have to prove to me you're not trustworthy. And so when you have both of those working against you, you don't have high intuition. But. But you have high trust, you're just going to get eaten alive. If you have high intuition and you have low trust, no one's ever going to con you. Right. You know, but if you have low intuition and high trust, you're going to miss a lot of things, but later on you're going to go, ah, I knew it. But I just wanted to trust him anyway. And I fall into the high intuition, like I instinctively know, but my problem is I'm super high trust. I took an assessment, a psychological assessment that I graphed as high on trust as, like, pretty much humanly possible. But my son, my daughter, my wife all tested as low on trust as humanly possible. And the guy who gave us the assessment said, your children are probably like this because they feel like they have to protect you because you trust everyone. So they created a guardian framework to try to protect you and themselves. And so there's that dynamic. So Kim will say, you know, I don't trust that person. And her instincts are usually pretty right about it, but she actually has low intuition about people. She doesn't have high intuition. So she's low trust, low intuition, which means she'll not trust most people, but then trust the wrong person. Does that make sense?

Yes.

You know, and then Aaron, who, you know, my son in business, he. He has high intuition and low trust, so he can read people really, really fast. In fact, recently said to me, hey, dad, you got to trust me. I don't, don't, don't work with this person. And I'm like, I want to give him another chance. That's just the way I'm built. You know, he goes, look at these patterns. I go, I know, I see them. But, you know, they could change. And that's the thing. I have this little voice that always tells me, but they could change.

Yeah. You said this recently on Lewis Howe's podcast that, you know, you. You hear this thing that people don't change. Yeah, people don't change. They're just who they are. Maybe they can change for a moment, but they'll always come back to their true colors.

Yeah.

So what do you feel about this?

See, I. I believe people can change. Now, the reason I believe that is because I've changed. And I don't think I have superpowers. I think I'm just a human that decided to be different. And there is an aspect of you. Maybe it's like a 60, 40 thing, right? Because I think scientifically, we're told that about 60% of our personality and our makeup is genetic. So Maybe that's the part of us that doesn't change. But there's 40% that's environmental and that 40% is more pliable and adaptive. And even that 6% depends on how you develop it, the environment you grow up in and how it's skewed by the health or dysfunction of the world you're in. So I do think people change because I know I've changed, I know I can grow and I've seen people change, I've seen people grow. But I do think that we have a tendency to go back to the weaknesses we had before. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Yes.

You know, and so if you're going to have a bad day or if you're going to have a reversal, you're going to reverse back to who you were, not to some other negative behavior.

Yeah, that makes sense. And this is where, you know, people will say, hey, I'm not, I was not given the gift of communication.

Yeah.

I'm just a bad communicator. You know, I'm not good at content, I'm not good at this. And, and I'll, I'll show them or when I'll show them my content from five, six years ago. And it's like, you know, it's really bad when you can't even watch your own video.

Yeah.

You know, it's like cringe worthy. But I got better at it just through the reps and just by being myself and not worrying so much about like, are they going to judge me? Do they, am I good? You know, just putting it out there. Yeah. And I noticed you said this recently, you said that when you look back at your first talks and now you, you look at Irwin, today's like one of the best communicators. You're able to move people and they're, they're just like in a short period of time with you, people are moved. But if I go back to like when you first started speaking, it was not like that. Right. You said that it was bad.

No, I was like a wildfire, you know, not a furnace.

These are skills like you can change in the, in terms of like, you're not grow. It's not that you're a bad communicator. You can become a good one.

You can. And I was thinking about Ed Sheeran when you said that. I don't know if you've seen that clip where he shows. I think it's Jimmy Fallon. I don't know if you've seen that where him playing music like at 15. He was terrible. Yeah. So when he. When he says. When people say to me, oh, you were just born with that talent, I show him this video, and he was horrible. And I realized, here's one of the greatest writers, you know, songwriters, and just incredibly gifted artists. But it was. It was definitely something he had to grow in. And. And there was definitely a change in that process. So I'm optimistic about humans. I think as a species, we can change. I think that sometimes it takes pain for us to change. Sometimes it takes suffering for us to change. But I think the greatest motivation for change is love. And when you love someone or you love something, it's amazing how your life begins to revolve differently around it.

Yeah, that could be a huge motivator. Yeah. So when you think about people who are in this mode of overthinking, because I speak to so many people who are trying to build their brand, and they overthink everything, you know, And. And I think I. Whitney tells me this too. She's like, hey, you. You make it too simple. Like, you say, hey, just do it. You know, don't worry about what they think. And somebody's literally debilitated by that thought of, like, rejection and all this. So I'm trying to be more kind when it comes to that and not just be like, hey, just do post it. You know, because they're not doing it. So for people who are stuck in this overthinking mode, and by the way, we can get into some tactics on this, but first and foremost, I just want to make sure if your mindset, like, the inner work is not done, you're not going to do any of this tactics anyways. Like, it's just not happening. So for someone that's saying no for the audience, I have a sticker, post it note on my desk. It says, don't say no for the audience. Audience. Because so many times I've said, hey, that's something simple. I don't think anyone's gonna be interested in this. Or, I thought that was funny, but is anybody else gonna get the joke? And I just said, don't say no for the audience. Just send it. Post it. And so many times that's been the thing that connects me with great, you know, relationships and so many cool things.

I love that. I didn't know that you had that on your post it. For probably almost 40 years, I've actually taught and said, don't say no for others. Yeah. And I didn't even know that. That's just so cool. But some of it Was even just, like, on my faith journey. Like, sometimes it's just easy to say no for others, you know, or just something you've learned in life that's changed you, but you don't want to share it because you're actually saying no for others.

Is it confidence?

I think sometimes, you know, there are people who are more relationally empathetic, and they don't want to offend people or hurt people or. Or be intrusive or invasive. And, like, you know, there's a part of me that I'm aware that there's a level of power that I have, and so I try to be super careful not to be invasive, you know, and so I always, like, wait for permission in a sense, you know? And sometimes it's confidence. Sometimes. Sometimes is. I just don't know if I know how to answer the questions right. I don't know if that person will say yes. I don't know if I'll be rejected. And, I mean, I remember the pain of asking a girl to dance in ninth grade. Terrified, in fact. I was sitting in a gym, and my friend said, I know you like the girl across the gym. Why don't you go ask her to dance? And I'm like, nah, there's no way she's going to say yes. And. And he talked me into it. And I walked all the way around the gym, walked up to her, and I said, hey, do you want to dance? And she said, no. And I just. And I was paralyzed, and I said, okay. I came back and he said, what happened? And I said, she said no. And he goes, wasn't there a girl sitting next to her? And I said, yeah. And he goes, why didn't you turn to her and say, would you like to dance? And I realized that he was actually trying to teach me a mental construct, you know? And I realized, wow, it didn't even enter my mind. And it shifted my thinking, like one. She said no, because I wanted her. I believe she should say no. And no girl's going to say yes to a guy that doesn't believe he deserves a yes. And then I was working at this pizza place, and this guy walked in for a job, and he said to the manager, you don't have any openings, do you? And he said, no, I don't. And then the guy left, and I looked at the manager, and I said, but we do have openings. He goes, yeah, but he told me he wasn't the right person when he said, you don't have any openings.

He's actually putting no in the ask.

Yeah. And so those two events, they're completely non related, but they were in my childhood. And both those told me, oh, I can spend my whole life saying no for other people rather than believing there's a yes. There's. Yeah.

And I think that people do that with their content, with their sales.

Yeah.

They have a new product that they truly believe in and then the way they present it or package, it's like.

You don't really want this, do you?

Yeah.

Which I think is part of overthinking, because that's part of what you brought up was overthinking is really just an endless replay of negative scenarios. We never overthink positive scenarios. We never, like get paralyzed, going, oh, it could be so good. Too many people could say, yes, I could grow too fast. Like, you're not really paralyzed by positive scenarios, you're paralyzed by negative scenarios. And so we need to realize that overthinking is actually the opposite of faith. And because overthinking is fatalism. It's like every outcome is going to be negative. And the only way to really overcome overthinking is action. Yeah, right. Because the only way you can prove your overthinking is wrong is to act.

I feel like when you start winning, you try, you push past that overthinking and you do it.

Yeah.

It starts to like, quiet that voice down. You know when you said, not always.

Because like, I was working with the usfl, the football league underneath the NFL, and one of the number one questions that asked me was about overthinking. And then I went and had a meeting with Sean McVeigh, the head coach of the Rams. And I was telling him the story about the issue of overthinking. And I said, is that a problem in the NFL? And he goes constantly. And then I moved on. And he said, wait a minute, but what'd you tell him? And I realized that that's something he was facing. And quarterbacks face it all the time, even at the highest elite level. And if you can get them past overthinking, they'll actually move into instinctive reaction. And it's really the pattern recognition of knowing that the opening is there. And you move to overthinking not because the environment is too complicated, but your inner world is too cluttered.

So how do you get clarity?

You're not afraid of throwing the interception. You're not afraid of failure. You just go, what I'm not going to do is going down. Go down with the ball in my hand and And I'm. And then if I throw an interception, I'll know next time. Okay, I need a little more of a gap there, you know? But the only way you can know.

What is taking the risk.

You got to take the risk. The only way you can know what your capacity is is pushing to the point of failure. And so if you avoid failure, you actually avoid learning your full capacity.

Yes. That's. It's incredible because I think I, you know, it's easy to. You see all these cliche things. I know you hate cliches, but people will say, you know, L's aren't losses, they're just lessons, you know?

I know. Yeah, yeah.

And then. But it is true. Like, you feel like, hey, the more content that fails, the more I've. I've honestly had talks that have bombed, you know, Like, I've gone up and it was not good, you know, And I watch back and it's like, man, how could you have done that that way? But I didn't know, you know, And I was just learning and. But I feel like that's what. Like it wasn't that bad.

Yeah.

What I think was a complete utter failure was actually nothing bad happened to me. Like, I didn't die. I was cool. And then the next one got slightly better and better. So I think, like, people, when you think about overthinking, I think they're overest. They, like, magnify what that loss would mean.

Yeah. I think that for me, it's not that L's are not losses, they're lessons. It's that L's are not terminal. Yeah. And when people say there's no such thing as failure. See, when you said I failed but nothing bad happened to me, that's not quite accurate. You failed and it felt horrible.

It did. Yeah.

But it wasn't permanent and it wasn't pervasive and it wasn't personal. It wasn't you. And so when you realize I'm just very pragmatic, I go, yeah, I failed a lot. I'm proof that failure isn't terminal, that it isn't permanent, and that it doesn't define you. That in fact failure is. Is like a push up, you know, it's like it's what builds the muscles.

Yeah.

You know, and if you avoid failures, you ever use those machines that you can add the weight and makes your pull up easier? Like, I didn't used to need those. There was a time where I could lift my own weight by myself. Now I use that machine and the more weight I give myself, the stronger I appear. And. But objects are less strong, you know, than they look in the mirror. And for me, the weight is about how much failure and how much loss you can bear and actually keep learning. And so the bigger the L, the greater the learning potential. Yeah. And. Yeah, it's. It's, you know, you remember, they're asking. I don't know if you'll follow NBA. They're asking Giannis again, like, did he feel the season was a failure? He goes, why would you ask me that? Right. You don't win the championship every year. Our season isn't a failure. But reporters and actually society wants to say, if you don't win everything, you're a failure. The guy is richer than most of the people in the world. He gets paid to, to play a sport. Most of us stop playing in childhood, you know, in adolescence or in high school. Like, there is nothing in his life that could be defined as a failure. Yet we want to say not making it to the championship and winning is a failure. You know, I mean, we got the Pacers and the Thunders going to the NBA Finals, and one of them will lose that game. So to say you didn't lose wouldn't be true to reality. One of them will lose the game. Neither one of them will be a loser.

Yeah, that's the difference.

Yeah.

It's like a bomb. A video that bomb did bomb.

Yeah.

It didn't do well. It's a flop. But that's okay.

How do you know what works if you don't have one that doesn't work?

But that's great. I love that. That difference, because it doesn't mean that you are a failure. It just means that your attempt failed.

Yeah.

And. And like you said, there's so many cool things about where you're at. Do you think that people need to redefine as and when it comes to building brand and content creation? They have this big ego and they want fame and they want all these things and millions of subscribers and all these things. Do you think that they need to redefine what success is? Because I have. I've fallen into that trap as well. So I'll just give you a quick example, and I think many people will relate. I remember having a, you know, we have an event and the number of people who buy tickets and then the goals that I have for what we're going to do at the event, they were. I remember doing that for the first time with a hundred people and feeling like this is the best day of my Professional life, like, this is so cool that I did this, and it worked, and people were giving me good feedback, and I was like, this is. This doesn't get much better than this. And then the next year, we raised the bar for, like, we want to do 500, then at 700, and then a thousand. And then I remember looking back now, and I'm like, you know, when we hit those numbers, it's like the bar keeps moving, the goalpost keeps moving.

Yeah, it does.

And so you're always setting these huge targets, and then when you don't hit them, you're like, man, I suck. And it's like, no, you were just happy a few years ago with just 100 people. Why are you disappointed today with 500?

That's the same. That's the same conversation I just recently had with my son Aaron, going, hey, let's have big goals, but let's not stop enjoying life, because big goals can suck the joy out of life. We all say, oh, you need to have these aspirational goals. I do. But also have an aspirational life. I like the life I get to live. I love that I get to do this. And every time you accomplish something, it now becomes a standard in your life because you've already accomplished that. And so if accomplishment is what brings you happiness and joy, you're. You're. You're a slave to accomplishment. I don't want to be the slave to outcomes. I want to be the master of them.

Okay. Yeah. And it's great, like, to think about the, you know, things that we can control, more like the impact. Like you said earlier, the people who are, I feel like, are the most authentic and make the biggest impact are those who are just being real and they care about the impact on the people. People they make that are not necessarily the optics of how everything looks and all that. So when you get into content creation, I feel like the number one thing right now, and this really works with when you present live, and you do an incredible job of this. I feel like sometimes when you're telling the story, I feel like I'm in it, you know? Like, I remember you telling a story of being in some ride at a. At, like, a carnival and being whipped around, and you were, like, whipping the mic around, and I was like, you feel like you're there. You know what I mean? And so you have all this detail when you're telling the story. And so I feel like this is the number one skill for being authentic and really drawing people in. When you talk, you talk about not just putting it out there, but drawing them in.

Yeah.

Is storytelling. So how can we become better storytellers? Is there a framework? Is there a lesson that we can use?

Yeah. I'd say the first significant shift is don't tell a story. Relive the story. If you'll relive it and experience the emotions you experienced in that moment, everyone will experience it with you. You're inviting everyone to share in that experience rather than simply hear a memory. And I. And I can tell, Man, I wish I always got this right, but I can tell when I've just told the story, and I can tell when I relive the story.

And you can tell the way the energy feels in the room. I noticed.

Absolutely.

Because I've told the same story in different talks.

Yeah.

But one time I just felt it more.

Yeah.

And other times I just went through the series of events.

That's why great storytelling always costs you something. Because when you're telling a story of a moment of incredible pain or disappointment or failure or where you felt, you know, worthless or filled with fear and you're now reliving that, it actually costs you something. When you retaliate, it costs you nothing. But when you relive it, it's. It's almost dangerous.

It is. Why when it comes to men. I know you talked about, like, masculinity, and some of this has been viral content on.

Yeah.

Why is it so hard for men to be vulnerable and tell authentic stories? Because I've even, like, I'm a heterosexual male. I'm a have a family and stuff. And sometimes the comments have said, like, they've accused me of being gay because I'll tell a story where I got vulnerable and, like, there'll be rumors about this and I'm like, why? Why does that make me feminine for telling a story and being, you know, or getting emotional when you talk. Why is it men don't want to.

Do this one that is a part of it. It's the accusation. Men are afraid that if they're vulnerable and authentic and transparent about what they're really going through, that others will actually accuse them of not being masculine. And if you're not gay, you probably don't want to be called gay.

I wouldn't care either way. But, I mean, I'm nothing against it.

But what they're actually saying is an insult. Yeah. They're saying as an insult. And which is the whole point. It's like, you know, if. If you're not afraid, you don't want to Be told you're a coward.

Yeah.

Or, you know, if it's like. It's. It's. They're trying to attribute a negative attribute to you, you know, and so it's kind of sad because I actually think that when you're actually comfortable with your masculinity, you become more tender and more kind and more accessible and vulnerable. And I. I think we confuse, like, machismo with masculinity. Like, you know, machismo is, you know, I'm not afraid of anything. I'm never hurt. I don't feel anything. I'm tough. You know, I can handle everything myself. And I. I think masculinity is actually a very tender state of being, you know, and I think we have to work hard at changing that. It was always. It actually became a surprise to me in some ways that I became, like, a highly masculine figure that men really, I guess, admired. But what I really realized is that women actually wanted masculine men and that culturally, we've almost been taught that women want effeminate men or women want soft men or women want feminine men. And the reality is women actually want masculine men. They just want men who are honest about their pain and honest about their fear and struggle. And so they. They do not want men who pretend, but they don't want men who are soft. And there's an interesting difference. Yeah. You know, and so I'm. I'm like, I'm kind of. But I'm not soft.

And sometimes they're trying to say that by being real and vulnerable, that makes you soft. And that's not the case.

No. Actually, you know, I always tell people, look, you can't actually be humble if you do not know your power. That's just weakness. And we like calling weakness humility and strength arrogance. You cannot be humble if you do not know your power. When you know that you're powerful and you choose to serve others and not to overpower people, that's when you're actually walking in humility.

Yeah.

And I think we need to have deeper conversations about what real masculinity looks like.

I think so. And, like, what is the difference? When I see somebody talk and they will tell us about their success, and sometimes I feel like they're doing it to stroke their. Their ego, and somebody else will say a story about their success, and they'll feel inspired. Like, how do we. Because I. I feel like the one thing that I've been trying to do a lot, and I think a lot of other people is maybe we've achieved some Level of success. It doesn't matter what level. And you'd like to help others achieve that as well in coaching, in your clients and in your presenting. And you want to, like, sometimes sharing your own story is the most powerful thing you can do.

Yeah.

So when you do that, how can you do it without sounding like you're showing off?

That's a great question. And I think instinctively, we kind of know when someone's doing it. Yeah. To show off. And we kind of know when someone's doing it to inspire us. And there is a fine line in between those. At times, I think the overthinkers fear.

That they're going to be viewed as showing off.

Always. It's always the really humble person who's so afraid of actually telling the story, and the person who never questions that is probably the person who feels very comfortable, like, showing off. And. And so I think some of it is intention. You just have to trust your intention and go, if I'm sharing the story because I'm really hoping to inspire other people. And. And also when I'm attributing things to other people as well, making other people heroes in the story, not just yourself.

Okay.

You know, and realizing that you didn't succeed in the vacuum, that other things were in play.

So how would you like when you have a story about something that you struggle you've gone through and how it came out? The. My intention is, I think there's somebody in the room who is going to take action based on this, based on hearing my story.

Yeah.

So that's my intention. But how can you get them to see themselves in the story? Is it. Is it the way you tell it?

People identify with the struggle, not the success.

So you spend more time on the struggle.

If you don't share the struggle, the success feels superficial. And so when people come across really arrogant, it's like they talk about the struggle, but it's almost so disingenuous that they still sound like a superhero in the struggle, you know, and that goes.

Back to what we said earlier, where they don't want to appear weak.

Right. It's the interview where the person says, share with me one of your weaknesses. And you go, oh, I care too much. Right. You know, or. Or I work too hard, or. And. And the only weakness they point out is actually like a strength. And, I mean, no one ever says, oh, you know, I drink too much in the weekends, you know, so I come in kind of hungover on Monday, you know, and no one's really sharing real weaknesses and so it's, it's kind of a void question. Why would you ask a person who's trying to get hired by you what their weaknesses are? Yeah, right. You know, and so you're kind of putting people in a worst case scenario, but we always kind of flip it and make it a strength. And I think some of it is when you own what you are really facing in the hard moments, then people want to go with you when you're sharing with them what happened in the great moments, you know, And I think that's, that's a part of it. I love hearing great human stories. You know, I love being inspired by people's, you know, journeys and the things they faced. And I just think that sometimes. Well, I don't want to be too specific, but I remember listening to this one speaker and they used a phrase like 10 or 15 times. And I think it was honestly, honest to God honest. And when you use it like 10, 15 times, you kind of go, the whole story is dishonest, you know, and, and I think sometimes it's because we're trying, we're almost trying to use the vulnerability muscle without being vulnerable. I can't remember if it was Scorsese or somebody in Hollywood that said authenticity is the most important characteristic for a great actor. Once you can fake that, you've got it made. Yeah. And, and, which is kind of a scary thought. Right. You know, and, and so I think some of it is just not needing other people's approval. And when you're telling your story, telling your story because you want people to identify with your humanity, not. Not your, like, extraordinary talent.

What do you think about the quote? I don't know who said it, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

That's a legal term. Yeah.

And like, when I see people tell a story, I know it's embellished sometimes maybe, and I know they're using some tactics, but you still feel it. Like, I remember hearing it was at your event, Brendan Burchard, he's telling a story about how he's blind, bleeding out on top of his car, and he sees the pool of blood and he's telling such great detail and it's. People are emotional. And I'm like, hey, I'm sure this is a great story. And there's a really powerful outcome from that. And you learn something from. You're inspired by it.

Yeah.

But then the other side is like, is this. Did this happen this way?

Yeah.

Or is this like Hollywood?

Yeah. Once a person Asks that question, you missed the mark in the story. Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah.

You know, so it went too far. Yeah. Or it cued something psychologically where a.

Person goes, I might just be cynical, but that's what I thought.

I think some of it is I'm really keenly aware of the fact that we remember our experiences. We don't remember the facts. We remember how we experience the facts. We don't remember the facts.

And so, you know, most of my arguments. That's like most arguments between.

Yeah. Women and. And, you know, and so I look back and I go, I actually don't remember what happened to me at three or four or five, but I do remember what I experienced. And so I share out of my experience. And I go, I'm just really straight up and go, some of these facts may be off, you know, because I'm from El Salvador, I'm an immigrant. I never knew my real father. I have one memory of my father eating ice cream with him, but I don't know if I remember it or I remember that people told me it happened. See, I think we just have to be really honest, that we're subjective creatures. You know, I remember my mom coming to El Salvador to take me to the United States, where I think I remember it, you know, but I remember how I felt. I remember feeling really isolated, disconnected, and feeling like this was a stranger that was taking me away from my grandparents. Like, I have multiple different versions of how old I was when I came to the States and how long I went back and forth to El Salvador. And my mom remarried a guy named Bill McManus. I don't remember when he came on the scene, but I was told that he was my real father, which he wasn't. And I was told that he was always there, which he wasn't. And so I didn't have a lot of confidence in what I remembered. So I'm a person that understands that what you experience and what you experience are not the same thing. And what's true is how you reacted to it and what carried inside of you out of that. So I know my experiences, what I remember of it is true to who I became. Facts are much harder to carry with you in life. And so I try to be incredibly factual, but also realizing that facts are accumulated through my subjective perception of reality. And so two people can remember the same experience in completely different ways. That's different than being honest and dishonest. Dishonest is when you're trying to manipulate people by distorting truth. Okay. Honesty is when you're trying, to the best of your ability, tell the truth to help others as well.

And so that, then that means that you know when you're telling your. The way you experience things, if you really lean into how you felt and your. Your experience and you can be honest about, like, hey, I might get some of this stuff wrong, like the exact sequence of events, but I just remember this.

Yeah.

I remember how I.

We've all gotten facts wrong. It doesn't make you dishonest. It just makes you human, makes you imperfect.

So if this is, I guess this is the, this is the key, then. So if we're going to be doing more content that is authentic, we're going to be doing more storytelling in our talks, would you suggest, as I know you, you're in this group, you, you host this amazing group, and I've been blessed to be a part of it called the arena. And you talk about communication, and there's a lot of entrepreneurs in the group.

Yeah.

And they are all talking about how to improve their communication. And a lot of it is like, in the form of public speaking. So would you suggest that people open up their talk with a story? Because I know you talk a lot about that. The audience will give you incredible grace if you start good.

Yeah.

And then. But if you don't, it's over, you know? So, like, how do you start good? Is the story the best way to start?

It's really trying to read the room. And I think stories usually are the best way to start. But like today I spoke at an event and. And because Ryan Pineda, who spoke right before me, had a very particular style and is. There was an intensity there and it was pretty heavy. Yeah. You know, and I knew that my, my subject was it. It felt like one was in a beach condo, another one was in a cabin in the mountains. I mean, there's just different environments completely. And so I had to begin somewhere. I wasn't planning to begin because I knew I had to create a bridge from where they were to where they are. And this was like, very, very heavy, like, faith kind of context, which wasn't what I was going to do, but I realized I needed to explain why what I was going to do matched what was happening. So. So I actually went long, which I almost never do. Ran out of time because it took me about eight to 12 minutes to transition from where they were to where.

That's totally unlike you because anytime I've ever had you, you end on the dot.

I know.

Anytime I've Said, this is the time you finish. It's like everything was made to wrap up at that point.

Yeah. And. And I didn't, you know, see the clock originally, but when I. I only saw it when it was out of time and I was only halfway through. And it's because I had to journey so far back, it's almost like I had to do a prequel. You know, I had to do episodes 1, 2, and 3 of Star wars before we actually got to the event. And so sometimes you're not positioned in the best way and you can. You can ignore the moment, just go, I'm just going to do what I do. But it'll feel so abrupt that the audience won't be with you. Yeah.

So that's the adaptability you talked about.

Yeah, yeah. So you have to pay attention to that. And so normally I would just begin with the story that connects people to the place I'm going with them. And here I kind of began with, Now I understand what the foundational belief systems are in this room, and I'm too far away, so I'm going to have to surrender what I wanted to do to help start where you're at, to get you to where I need you to go. And took me a little bit of time.

That makes sense. One of the ones that you've done so many talks that I've seen, but one of the ones I really loved and stuck with me in our group gave great feedback on, was when you opened the story with Mike Tyson.

Oh, yeah.

You know, you were. You were. I think it was about mind shift, was the talk.

Yeah, it was. It was on Buster Douglas and Mike.

Tyson started, and you literally just threw us into the facts. It's like 1980, whatever.

Yeah.

And Mike Tyson is going to fly to Tokyo. And. And those of us who knew the event.

Yeah.

It was, like, really powerful, you know, because if you know that story, it's such a. It's such a. It's probably one of the best underdog stories in sports.

Yeah.

Ever. Right.

See, when you tell a story like that, you have to consider two people in your audience.

But what about the people who didn't even know who Buster Douglas was?

That's what I was going to say. When you tell a story like that, you have to consider two people in the audience. One, the person who knows the sport, and you need to tell the story in a way that still captures them and the person who knows nothing about the sport. And you have to bring them into the human interest aspect of the story. And so I had to tell the story where I didn't give so much detail to the person who already knows it goes, I already know all this, but I don't give so little detail that another person goes, I don't know anything about this. Why should this matter?

Well, you said something about his mother passing. Buster Douglas mother just recently passing. And maybe that, you know, was some.

And so I think the main thing was the sentence from the newscaster that said, some people are simply structured for failure. So the moment I say that, it's no longer about boxing, now it's about us. And so I know I'm setting up the stage of this epic moment in history, and everyone's had moments where they didn't show up. So for me, it's not about Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson. It's about you and me and everyone in the room when we had a chance to show up and we didn't. Every time we didn't fail, we quit. So it's. Buster Douglas is just a metaphor for all of us who could have been champions but we were afraid to try. And then are we the person structured for failure?

And then you get into the whole talk.

Yeah.

So this is a. So this is very strategic. It's. Maybe it's a level of mastery. But the opening story does not necessarily need to be your story. It could be any story that relates to the talk, the theme of the talk.

Oh, even better. Make it a story that they don't, they can't see how it's going to take them where they need to go. It's like a suspense thriller. You know, it's. It's the opening scene where they go, what's going on? And then by the end of the story, they're like, ah, the opening makes perfect sense now.

Yeah, I think that was the part where, you know, basics were like, hey, I'm going to start with the story, then I'm going to tell you the three things we're going to talk about today. I'm going to tell you three things I'm going to wrap up.

I hate that.

I know you do. I remember asking you one time. That's terrible. But that's what people teach.

Yes, they do, from a framework. They tell you, tell them what you're going to say, Tell them, and then tell them what you said. And I'm like, why? Why are you going to waste my time? If you're going to tell me what you're going to say, then close, let me go get lunch, but don't tell me what you think people need to.

Know where we're going with this talk, or.

No, they don't. No, I. I like mystery. I. I use. I use digression as my principal strategy for communication. I use what seem to be disconnected stories and disconnected images and metaphors so that you're going, what is this guy talking about? And then I bring them all together and tie in. I. So I. I like that kind of Catcher in the Rye. I don't know where this book is going until the very end. Then there's one story that ties it all together and explodes in your mind and you go, oh, now it all makes sense. Yeah.

So that initial story, though, that you do tell, even though maybe it's going to get linked later.

No, it's definitely connected to the last thing I say, so it has to.

Be connected to the end.

Yeah.

That's how you do this.

Yeah. The most fun talk I did recently, I did one at Brendan's event, Brendan Burchard in Miami, where my opening sentence and my closing sense were the exact same sentence.

Wow. I want to see that talk. Or maybe have you do it for.

Us, because I can't. I can't repeat it like that.

I know you won't be able to, because I saw somebody post about this, and I don't know what you were holding, but you had some phone set or something on the stage and you threw it.

Oh, I did. Yeah, that's right. Oh, that's right.

And I was.

We have to get you a link for it.

Yeah, I'll have to see it. But. But I mean, yeah, that might have been just something that came to you in the. In the moment, you know, as you were teaching. But you were yelling and animated and you threw something.

I did. I destroyed something. Yeah. Yeah. I had a lot of physical images in that talk.

So this is the last thing I want to say on this storytelling is I know when you. It feels like. When you even. Like last week's sermon or Mosaic or sometimes you'll become. You'll have a lot of vocal variety.

Okay.

This happens in all your talks. Sometimes you're yelling. Sometimes, you know, And I noticed you hold the mic in different levels depending on where you know your. Your volume is going to go. But I've noticed a lot of people who are speaking and presenting, they just have this monotone. It's just the same. The whole. The whole time doesn't speed up, doesn't go down, no ups and downs in volume. And so do you. Is that something you intentionally did or is that Just something you're feeling in the moment.

It's both. It's something I intentionally do and something I feel in the moment. When someone yells the whole time, it's a monotone, too.

Yes.

When someone whispers the whole time, it's monotone. So the variation is really, really important.

Ed Mylet. Yeah, I know he does this a lot, like, where he'll whisper, he'll get too close to Mike and start whispering and get down on his knees and then he'll yell.

Yeah.

You know, so you can actually incorporate this as a form of keeping engagement.

Yeah. For me, there's a line between making sure it resonates with what you're really feeling to moving into performance, you know, because if. If it. If it becomes more of a technique, it starts. It starts feeling almost like a little bit like more performance. And. And so I don't tell myself, whisper here or yell here. I tell myself, express how you're really feeling and feel this deeply. And, you know, it's just. Even like in my marriage, my wife, you know, has Irish blood, and she's very intense and has a very animated personality. And I think one time she got super, super upset about, I don't know, like, a cop being in the wrong place or something like that, you know, that I didn't do it with someone else, you know, And I said, honey, if this upsets you this much and you go to a 10, what do you got left for when something really bad happens? And she goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So I. I think of a communication like that. Like, if you're yelling the whole time, nobody knows what matters most to you. Yeah. You know, and I actually am super quiet. I'm a. When I'm most intense, I'm very, very soft. Again, my kids would joke about that growing up, going, when dad whispered, we knew we were in real trouble. Like, that's when he was really intense. So when I'm most intense, it's not when I'm yelling. It's actually when I ground myself and I'm more soft and, you know, because I feel like that's where you're talking to a person one on one, you know? And, like, if you and I were talking and I. And I. And, you know, if I was your doctor and I had to tell you you had terminal disease, I wouldn't yell at you and go, neil, you know you're dying. You know, that's where I get really quiet. Right. And I'd say, hey, Neil, I have something to tell you. And I don't know why, as speakers, we almost reverse that out, you know, and I think sometimes because we don't have confidence in the power of our ideas. And so we try to make our ideas seem profound by being more intense.

Yeah, I noticed sometimes you'll say something in a soft way and pause.

Yeah.

And it hits just as. Way more. It would hit way harder than if you yelled it at us.

Yeah. The silence is thunderous.

It is, yeah. You can feel it.

Yeah.

So this is incredible. I think for the person who gets this conversation, it. It can really improve everything that you're doing in communication. Just before we wrap up, Irwin, I just want to ask you one thing that's off topic, but I know you've. You have good advice on this because you have coached and mentored some of some great entrepreneurs over the years. I know leaders and people, several people who have privately had your advice, and it's helped them incredibly, not just in business, but in life. And so when it comes to entrepreneurs and people in my industry, I've noticed that, like, there's people who are publicly say they're crushing it, but their relationships at home are anything but, you know, like the exact opposite. Why is it so difficult? I guess. Why, why do people. I guess, just to say it bluntly, why do entrepreneurs have such bad marriages and family life? Is it because they're obsessed with work? How can, how, what advice do you give them? Because I know you talk to people about this.

Yeah. It's disproportionate.

It's got to be like, way higher than the average, you know, for Americans.

Yeah. I'm going to just shoot straight. I think one of the common characteristics of really good entrepreneurs is that the narcissists and it, it works for them in the business world and it works for them in the social media world, but it is the worst ingredient to bring into a marriage and into parenting. And I've seen so many entrepreneurs who grow a company to 50 million or 100 million, and that's when their wife taps out. And when their wife leaves is the first time they actually care about keeping the marriage together. But it's too late. And I just. Because it's not obsession. See, it'd be easy to say it's because they're so obsessed. But I'm an obsessed person. But I'm also. I've been obsessed to be the best husband that Kim could ever have. And I've been obsessed to be the kind of parent where my kids want to be my friends when they're adults. And so your obsessions aren't simply about yourself, your success, your fame, your importance. And so when you have that sense of self importance and you bring it home and your wife isn't worshiping you, but someone else will worship you, it's so easy to be unfaithful. And so you have to kind of be careful because when you are in a mode of self worship, the only response other people can give is to submit to you and be devoted to you. And when you're in a real human relationship, it doesn't work like that. You got to go home and take out the garbage. You know, you got to go home and be there for your kids. You got to go home and serve your wife and make her feel like the most important person person in the world. And you know, I've had so many times in my life where I, I went home and I, I wanted to be treated like the most important person in the world. I mean, we all have that little drop in us, right? You know, and I've had to remind myself over and over again, I did not get married for what Kim could do for me. I got married so what I could give to Kim. And so the only way, way she can ever fall short as my wife is to not allow me to love her. And I genuinely did not create an expectation of what she needed to do to love me. And so I think one of the reasons, and I don't know how to stop, I mean, Neil, one of the reasons I went so hard into this business space was to try to help a lot of entrepreneurs stop destroying their marriages and their children and their lives. And even the ones that, quote, like, are Christians. Right. You know, you think that the Christian guys would do better. They're just as bad, they're just as broken, and they're, they have the same, if not even a higher percentage of divorces because you can believe in God and you can believe in Jesus, and if you don't deal with the narcissism in your soul, you're still going to be a train wreck. And so, you know, I'm, I know I'm being hard on this.

Yeah.

But if anyone's listening, this is why you need to get into the kind of community that doesn't just help you scale your business, but helps you build the depth of your character. And, and it's, and it just, for me, it's a tragedy. And you know, I've been married 41 years, so I, you know, I, I do know this journey. And most all of My friends in the business world have crashed and burned and, and, and I always meet him in the crash. I never get them before then, you know, but there's one couple and, you know, they're worth far over a billion dollars. And I won't say they are, but they are my, you know, people I love and are dear to me. And I, and they have said to me, because they called me one day and said, hey, would you change your flight? We see you're going to New York. Would you fly with us? And I'm like, I don't want to change from Delta to American or whatever. I didn't know they had a plane because I'd never bothered to ask and they meant, would you fly on our plane? So I got on the plane, flew with them for 5, 6 hours to new York, spent the whole time doing marriage counseling. They sent me a text and a note. And they've said it publicly that that flight saved their marriage and saved their lives. One really simple reason it wasn't that I'm that good is they actually wanted to save their marriage and save their lives. They just did work. But you have to listen. And I didn't know I was, you know, flying to do six hours of counseling. I was happy I did it. And they're still my friends to this day, and they're wonderful. But it's hard to keep your marriage together when you're that successful. It's hard when everyone else worships you and will do whatever you want because of who you've become. To actually then go home and go, oh, yeah, I'm going to be your wife or I'm going to be your husband.

To be of service.

Yeah, to be humble, to be of service for that person. And that never ends. And that's one of the reasons I actually am so pro marriage and because I actually think living your life in that kind of intimate relationship keeps you grounded. And, you know, we just did a post and my son showed me, you know, Aaron's like, Look, dad, in 24 hours, like two and a half million views, 4,000 comments. Two thousand of them are hate, right? And I don't even usually even look at them. If I built my self worth and self image and identity on those comments, I would jump off of a bridge. But I got a wife I go home to. And the fact that she still respects me and loves me, that grounds me. The fact that my kids love me and respect me, that grounds me. And I think the key for entrepreneurs is no matter how much success you have in the outside world. Your grounding has to be in your inner world and in that inner circle.

Yeah. That's huge, man. That's such a big impact. I think a of lot, like you said, most of the people, when I talk to them in our community, it's already past the point, but I think you can still catch it many times.

Yes.

They're just not listening to the signs. And it comes across something I really got wrong. And I think this would help people who are maybe in that they hear anger as, like, my wife's a B word, you know, really, they're just hurt, you know, by all this, you know, thing. And I think of, like, I used to just. I tell people this at certain events, but I was doing so much with the business and having so much success. And I remember coming home one time after a trip and. And Whitney told me. She's like, hey, Neil, we're learning to live without you. And I was like, I. I didn't realize. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And so I had to, like, stop and think about that for a moment. And it's hard, you know, but, yeah. When people don't listen, they may be being told that right now, but they're not hearing it. And I don't want someone to, like, all of a sudden be told and it's too late.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's. It's when my little girl, when Mariah was probably three, four years or maybe four years old, five years old, she came by the sofa and she grabbed my eyelids and opened them, and she said, you don't have to close your eyes, Daddy. You don't have to close your eyes. And realize I would go home so tired. All she saw me was, like, struggling not to fall asleep.

Yeah.

And you have to listen to those warnings and realize, I'm not bringing home what I'm bringing to work.

Well, it's not an excuse, but I think this is for many people. I came from an immigrant family. We came to the country. I didn't see my dad. He just worked. Like, we weren't on the front yard throwing the ball, you know, like, I was in sports. He didn't come to any games. He's just always working. And so I thought that the man's job is to provide.

Yeah.

And there's a circle, the pie, like 100 is.

Yeah.

Bring home the. You know, provide for the family.

Yeah.

But then what I learned over time is, like, that's just one piece. Then what about all the other pieces? And I just think of, like, anytime I get lost in this whole thing. I think of, like, go back to the time when. When you. When I was trying to date my wife. You know what I mean?

Yep. No, that's exactly right.

You know what I mean? Like, you were like, I gotta. I gotta figure out how to get this girl to go out with me. And, like, me. And you're putting on your best suit. You're. You're the best conversationalist on, you know, you're not looking at your phone, you know, and all those things. So I think of, like, getting back to that place, and I just wish more people would be humble and do that rather.

Yeah. When the guy says, well, my wife is a bee, the question is, wow, what did you do to turn her to that? Yeah. Because you didn't marry her because she was that. You married her because she was amazing. You married her because you didn't want to live without her, so you sent her through some kind of gauntlet that made her that person. Now you're willing to go back and re. Earn her love. And that's a real act of humility.

It is.

To go back and romance your wife and convince her that you're the right person for her to pick again.

Yes. So you guys were not expecting that on this episode, but I think that's going to secretly help several people who are watching and listening. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the conversation.

Oh, thank you so much, man.