From Zero to 4X Growth as a Loan Officer with Neel Dhingra

Foreign.

Welcome back to the show.

Thanks, man. It's been a while. It's only four years.

I think it's been a minute. It's been a minute. A few things have changed.

Yes, a few things. Yeah. It's actually pretty cool though, because the first time we talked, we were talking about how this could be successful for people in my spot and the, you know, small success I'd had with it and they should do the same. And then.

Right.

It's cool to see the compounding effect if you just stayed with it. So sometimes it's not even. Be like, you don't have to be a genius or some creative genius. Like it could be. Just don't quit. You know, that's been my thing is just like, stay with the game.

You're definitely somebody. It's funny because I remember at one of your Forward events a year or two ago, I think it was Chris Doe on stage and remember he was talking about how we need to come up with a name for Neil.

Yeah.

I was the one who was shouting out Terminator.

Dude. That's the one you went with.

I know you went for that just because you wouldn't quit. So that's. That's your new name, Terminator. I can't believe that there would be anybody watching or listening who's not familiar with your kind of origin story. But I think it's a great story because I was sitting in the room that day at that Gary Vee mortgage broker conference in Irvine, like five years ago.

20, 19. Six years ago.

Six years ago. And I remember you walking up because Gary's talking about like Cray Content and post. Here's Neil. I didn't know who you were at that time and you walked up to the mic, but would you mind just kind of, for those who aren't familiar, tell that story?

Yeah, yeah. Back in the. I started off just like every other person in our industry, you know, trying to get clients, trying to get realtors to refer me. And I honestly got a little burnt out doing that. But I thought that was the only way. Just knock on doors, you know, make calls. And so I just. I did it and then. But it just left me kind of like feeling salesy or just unfulfilled. I think there's a lot of people who like, think there's gotta be a better way than what we're doing.

Yeah.

But then they're just told by the coaching and their boss to do the. Just make the calls, man. Just make the calls. And so, yeah, there's value in that, but I was always just not fulfilled doing that. So anyway, I got stuck after doing that for like 10, 15 years and making decent money, like, not complaining, make a good living. But I was just like, hey, man, there's. I want to do something else. And almost honestly quit the industry. But I remember just coming across people on social making videos. And then one of the first influencers I follow was Gary. And he was like, man, you got to be posting content. You know how Gary says it? He's like, this is the biggest opportunity. And it was just getting me so hyped up. And at the time, bro, I didn't even have account on social media, really. Like, I would be the guy yelling at you or making fun of you for having. I'm like, hey, you're giving away all your privacy to Zuckerberg. And I don't even mess with social. And I had an Android, you know, the whole, the whole thing. Oh, I was that guy.

We know a very clear picture now. Yeah.

So anyways, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to try. So I set up an account. I literally opened my account for the purpose of like building a personal brand.

An Instagram account.

Instagram and Facebook. And then I started connecting with people. And then I was like, I'm going to post some videos and you know, like just terrible videos in the beginning. But I remember going to an event and it was before that I saw you at that event. It was a different event that was. Somebody was putting on in the industry, outside of the industry actually. So it was like, hey, these are people that I'm following, like Grant Cardone and my Letts and all those types of people and the Tai Lopez's and all those guys, those expert marketers. And I saw this event on social as an ad and I was like, you know what, I'm going to go. And I remember when I bought the ticket, if you bought the premium ticket, the guy putting on the event would do like a quick call with you. It was like a coaching call. It's like a bonus, right? And so I got on the call with him and he's like, dude, when you come to this event, you should film. You should make content, like make a vlog. And I was like, well, why would I want to do that, bro? Like, who's gonna watch it, you know, like, what's the point? He's like, to just trust me on this. Get a videographer, bring them with you to the event and you'll be treated better and you'll make it'll force you to make videos. And so literally the first time I made videos for, for Social was at that event in 2018. So I, the guy, I still work with him today, Eric. And so we, we went there, filmed videos. It was cringe worthy. I didn't even know what to say, but I just did it. And like, if I watch those videos, it's hard to watch, you know. You know, you get your Facebook memories.

And you're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like it's hard to watch remember who that person is. Yeah. And like, you know, it's. You're gonna have a hard time. If you have a hard time getting through it, how is anybody else gonna watch this? That's how it was. But then I just stuck with it and started to get a little bit of growth. And then a year later, I had already started to see improvement in my business, forex improvement from doing bad videos because nobody in my industry was really doing it or taking it seriously. So I was posting literally every day. Not great content. Yeah, probably somewhat cringe worthy content. And I was still getting benefit in my business. And so I just started to be more known in my market, getting more referrals, getting more realtor partners and my business started to take off. And then in late 2019, Gary speaking at this mortgage broker event and then they go to Q and A and I'm like, let me be the first guy. So I literally run over there to get first line and I'm like, hey bro. Like basically saying, hey dude, you're the reason I started making these videos. And then first six months I got nothing from them. I literally got no business. And it was cringe. But then the second six months, my business took off and, and I was trying to thank you and he was like, you know, he had this whole animated response like Gary does.

Oh yeah, I know, but it was great, man, because you stood up there and you actually talked about the results. So kudos to you. Congratulations. Because I think there's a lot of people listening right now who have thought about getting started. Right? Like, I know I need to. I know I should, I know I should just grab the phone, pick it up and do the thing.

What do you.

What was the moment or the buildup that led to you? Was it frustration or something that you're just like, you know what, screw it, I'm going to do it.

Well, I think you just have to come from a place of service first. Like, hey, I'm trying to get more clients. It's not about me. I'M married, I got kids. It's not a dating thing for me. Like, you know, be like, a lot of people are like, hey, I'm so debilitated of how I look and sound, but I was already kind of past that. But I do think you don't want to look stupid. Nobody wants to look stupid. But Pat Flynn said this to me. He's like, dude, you have to be cringe before they'll binge. Right? Like, yeah, dude, everybody's got to be embarrassed. And so Jesse Isler said the same thing. He told me, your fear of embarrassment is literally the thing that's holding you back from the biggest opportunities in life. Like your fear of being embarrassed on stage, your fear of being embarrassed on social media. And so I think a lot of people won't admit this, but they're worried about what everyone is going to say for their video. And you think there's a spotlight on you. But what I found is like, everyone's more concerned with themselves. There's no spotlight on you. You're not that important. Not putting anybody down. But it's not about you.

It's like people aren't thinking about you as much as you think they're thinking.

Exactly. So I was like, hey, what are people thinking? And truth is, they're not thinking like, so anyway, I just post your video. The great thing about Jeff about posting a shitty video is nobody sees it.

Right.

Like the algorithm kills it. Yeah, yeah. And move on. So I just kept doing it. And then you get past that. But I think, yeah, just you have to be okay with maybe being a little bit embarrassed for the first few videos. Sure. But then the cool thing happens. The highest form of influence is when somebody takes action based on what you said. That's true influence. When you start to get the feedback of like, hey, dude, your video helped me. As soon as I got like two or three of those DMS or comments, I was like, man, this is good. Like that's impact. And you, those little hints, all you need is just a little hint of success. Or like that it's actually working and it drives you to want to do it more.

So do you look at. I want to talk a little bit about a bit of a fast forward here because I was going to ask you about when you started, right. All those 5, 6ish years ago in producing content. What has, do you think evolved or changed since then? If there's anything specific.

So some of it's the same. It's just being consistent and posting. But then what's Changed is over the years, I just kind of got better at communicating.

Maybe your pace, your confidence, better at the skill.

Yes. And so I think that's just reps. So that's what I told you earlier. It's like, hey, part of it is just not quitting because the more videos you shoot, you it's just, like, statistically impossible for you to not get better at it.

Sure.

If you just keep doing it.

So I was learning and growing, though.

You're.

You're going to coaching, you're like, signing up for the course, all that.

Yeah. I think a big turning point for me was like, paying for help. I think a lot of people think that they look. They look down on it or think it's a scam.

Right.

But with the right people, it's the accelerator.

Yeah.

So I remember just finding people in our. Outside of our industry, in our industry who were doing it better and being like, hey, is there a program I can sign up for? Or is there a coaching group I could join or a mastermind I could join? And those ended up being the rooms where like, okay, here I could make a couple of years worth of progress in a few months. Yeah. So just hit the gas. And so I just wanted to get better, make more impact. And then what's crazy is I stopped selling as much, but then I got way more sales.

What do you mean you stop selling as much?

So I think this is the biggest problem people in our industry do is like, they think every video is an ad for their services, and it's just beaten into us, you know, like, you got to sell, sell, sell, because that's what you were told to do before. Like, closed mouth doesn't get fed, you know, but in content, what I found out is, like, it's more about just putting the information out there and getting more people to watch, save, and share the video and, like, engage with it. Now there's times when you can go for the sales pitch, you know, but it's like what Gary Vee says, jab, jab, jab, right hook. So I would post multiple pieces of content with no call to action, just putting out the helpful information. And the energy wasn't like, hey, I'm call me. Or like, here, work with me. Yeah. The energy was just like, here's a video that I think might help somebody. Here's a tip or a piece of information. So I did that a lot. And then what I. What changed for me was when I started trying, finally figuring out, okay, how do you convert this into business? And so that Was like doing calls to action and funnels and digital marketing and all that kind of stuff.

Do you think that people should, in terms of, like, when to start integrating those calls to action and having more of a. You know, I was going to ask you also about what the, what the. What the goal of content should be. Is the goal of the content, does that change based on the maturity level of the content creator? Like, when you're starting out, it's just, I'm just looking to get better and you know what I mean?

What do you say?

Yeah, I think so first and foremost, you got to get better video. But then if you don't ask, you're not going to get. Yeah, so then I think you will get some. It's not totally true. You'll still get some people inbound. But the biggest benefits I've gotten are like, when you actually make an offer to work with you, or like, here's a guide or a lead magnet and you should get it and here's how you can get it. So then that's the next step. So I think this is what's missing for most people's content. Like, what's the next step to work with you.

Yeah.

And is it a clear next step? So I know you teach, like, a lot about doing events and like, classes or webinars and things like this. The next step can be that class or the webinar. Now you have a conversion event. So for most people, they're just posting content and they're like, hey, should I, you know, where's the money? Like, am I? But nothing really happens. So unless you make an offer, like, yes, some people will see you. So for the first level, level one, just awareness. Let me get better at communicating. But level two is like, what's the next step to work with me? And so I think that's what's missing for a lot of people.

And I think that's a bit of like, you know, you've worked with a lot of people in our industry, mortgage and real estate side. What do you see as the biggest roadblocks? Let's just say somebody, somebody. Somebody's a believer. And they're like, yep, dude, I know I need to do this. But like. And then they get hung up on the.

Right.

Yeah. The, like, all the details.

Yeah, yeah. Like, what to post.

Yeah, yeah. What to say. And so I think first and foremost, it's like, let's just simplify this. What are people asking questions that they ask common questions, like, go to answer the public.

Sure.

And the public will tell you what people are searching for and then how can you make content around those topics? Because that's already proven. People are literally typing that into Google and that would be the video. Like, so I'll give you an example. People right now 2025 are searching in mass. Millions of people across this country, they're searching, when will home prices come down? You can make a video that starts off, when will home prices come down? Well, that's a great. That's the million dollar question, Jeff. Let me look at the data and you talk about your market and maybe home prices are coming down in your market and then you could talk about the opportunities. Yes, it's a pullback, it's not a crash. Like, there's all kinds of different ways you could take with just that one Google search.

So.

So another way is like, take that, plug it into GPT. Like, you know, you. There's so many tools now you can use to really improve this process. But there should not be a shortage of content topics. Like, once you start getting into the questions, you're getting what people are searching for online, the problems that you help clients solve, you'll just have an endless supply of content. So I would suggest people go into ideation session first. Let's spend a couple hours just coming in with ideas.

Okay.

Because when you go to shoot, you're like, what do I say? Yeah, like what do I do? And you're at a loss. If you have your list in your phone, on notes or whatever app you use, you're like, dude, here's a notes app with like 40 ideas. Then you just start picking those ideas. So that I think that's the first step. Informational content.

Yeah. No, but that's a really core step. That's like the biggest problem a lot of people have is what to post. What do I say? They got all these ideas floating around in their head. It makes me curious then, do you actually, I know you do stories and all that, but do you also like, batch film, some content?

Yeah. So for informational, I would say like, you know, if we were in a setup, like this one way is just take those topics and just start jamming them out so that you have a vault of content that you can use. Well, some people say, well, Jeff, what are they going to say? You're going to wear the same T shirt in all the videos Again, nobody cares. Like, even for the women, they don't care. Like, I don't really look and be like, dude, I noticed that's the same shirt right now. Maybe 100 people watch the video. One person might say, hey, are you wearing the same thing? And then you could answer them, well, I shot these videos in the same day. Or you could say, hey, bro, I have 12 of those shirts in my closet. It's clean, don't worry. Like, so it's not as big of a deal as you think. But then, so that's easy. But then the other part that comes up is like, what happens if on Thursday this week I have a. I get off a call with a client and I just solve this problem and I want to post that. So that's like in the moment. I would tell people not to wait until your next day. Just post a raw kind of really quick version of that. Maybe an Instagram stories that day just to get it off your chest. Maybe it's, you know, it's helps somebody. Because a lot of content is like just being in the right place, right time for somebody.

Yeah.

And so the more you post, the more chance you have to get lucky. Somebody's watching and they're dealing with that same situation. They had a credit issue that you just solved, whatever it is. So sharing that would be super quick right there. And then you can make another ver. A better version of that next time you batch create.

Oh, interesting. So in the moment, like, story just like, hey, I just had this appointment or conversation, you're going to talk about it, but then you're going to probably frame that up a little bit better, maybe for a reel then.

And then once in a while you get lucky. And the video that you post on Stories, actually, you're like, dude, this is good. I nailed it. Like, it looks clean. It sounds good. I was concise. I was good. I'm just going to go ahead and post that in the feed and then you go ahead and post it. Like, I have several videos that have done really well that were shot just on the iPhone that I thought were going to be four stories, but they ended up being crushed. Being really good in the feed makes.

Me curious then with you now having so many reps in, are you at this point now where you're just posting and not judging or like critiquing and just like post and go, man.

Yeah. I think you get to a point where you could just post more and not really judge each post. Like it used to be. I would post and then like scroll, refresh how many views, how many views. Now you don't really care. You're just like, dude, it's another piece of content. Yeah. And what you'll find is like YouTube different. You put a lot of time, maybe into that video like this. It'll be a video on YouTube and we come the thumbnail and the title and you're posting it. And that video can live for like years on YouTube. I mean, I know, I know creators and you know them too. Like, their videos are getting traction years into the after posting. So it's an asset that, like, produces. So that's awesome. But on social, it feels like it's a very low shelf life. Like it might do well and get it and go off on a run. But for the most part, it's got like a couple hours, maybe a couple days at the most, and it's dead onto the next. So in that disposable content era, just post more, you know, and somebody asked me the day, like, how do you find time to post? I'm like, well, how do you brush your teeth? You know, it just becomes that easy. Like, hey, content is walking from my car to the door. I got an idea. I just got the phone with somebody and they had this problem and I solved it. Let me just talk about that in the best way I can from the door to the, you know, from the two doors. And then now that's my first version. I could refine it from there, but I got it out of, out of my chest at the very minimum if I don't have time to shoot it. And a lot of people tell me, easy for you to say, Neil, you're quick with this. I'm not camera ready. I'm not. I wasn't wearing my pajamas today. I'm working from home. I'm not in a spot where I could shoot the very minimum. Put it on the idea sheet, like, document that because you'll forget about these ideas.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say a moment ago. When you're talking about capturing content in the moment when you come out of a meeting or something. I know that I found that to be a better practice because even if you're not going to post it immediately.

Exactly.

At least you still have it.

Just document it so that you can use it. It's in your vault. Either your vault of ideas or it's already shot and you could post it later. But there should be no shortage because if you guys look at your calendars. We could just look at this week's calendar. It's Wednesday right now. There's enough that happened this week alone that I should have ideas this week, plenty of ideas. The calls I was on, the meetings I was at this conversation with you.

Yeah.

There's plenty of ideas.

Right. You know, it's funny, a while back, what dawned on me, and maybe obviously you got to this point, but I think what I had to do and other people, I'm recognizing as well. You've got to basically train yourself, I think, to be aware of content moments. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because otherwise, if you're just walking blindly through life, you're just, like, going around your thing and whatever. Like, even coming in here. Like, you know what I mean? I could come in here and wander around aimlessly. Right. Or I could be like, no, this is a shot. This is a shot. You know what I mean? That's again, reps, Right.

Muscle. Yeah. And then you realize, like, hey, I'm in a spot where there's good lighting.

Yeah.

So just take out your phone, obviously, wipe the lens first, because that's the first problem.

Right.

Everybody's lens looks like there's chapstick across. It's like, I look bad. No, your lens is probably dirty also. There's probably a lighting problem.

Yes.

For most people, there's not enough light in the room. So if you look at it selfie style and like, oh, actually look pretty good. Or if I rotate around until I like the way I look. Now you're in a good spot. Like, that's a spot. Maybe you want to shoot something, and then if you have that list of ideas, you can go ahead and do it. I think the other thing that people are missing right now is the thing that's changed over the years is used to be just about content. Like, I could just post three tips to buy a house. Cool. That was a basic video, better than nothing. But today, that content is almost dead. Yeah. It needs to be more specific. Like, here's I help John do this deal. Or here's how my best friend was able to raise his credit score by this amount of points or something specific. And then the other part that's missing is the connection. So I talk about this a lot where I'm like, hey, what are you about? What do you value? What are some Jeff Isms? Right. What are some Neil Isms? So maybe you want to make a separate list of stories to tell, personal stories to tell. Maybe a time when you overcame something. Maybe how you bought your first house, maybe how you got foreclosed years ago. I don't know. Could be bad or good. I think you should share both. Something you struggle with that you overcame. Those are great stories to tell. And then on there you can also include anything that is part of your values or system. So it'd be like, what are your thoughts on money? Like, do you believe debt is good or bad? Do you believe that people should save up for a huge down payment? Or should they just get into a house with the very minimum amount of cash? Why do you believe that? Do you believe that people should pay this off or invest first? What are those questions? How would you answer them in a conversation? So I think those are a list of, here's the things I stand for. And then if you do all that, now you've got the connection piece. So you have content, connection conversion. You need all three Cs in order to get the deal. And I think that's a piece that people are missing. It's like they're making all the videos, but they're not showing who they are. Why would I. Why should I work with you? Like, that's a helpful video. But how do you go from like, hey, I like his content to I want to work with that person. That's a. That's a gap that you need to fill.

The only way to get there, to get to connection, is. Yes. Have something personal. Right?

Yeah. Like, why do we work with people? Because we like them.

Yeah, exactly.

So how can I get people to like me? Well, why would you like me? Maybe because of my sense of humor. Maybe because about, you know, me from the church, or maybe you know me from my family, or, you know, I'm just a good dude.

Yeah.

So I need to make sure my content reflects that.

So by that, are you saying give me a little bit of glimpses into things outside of business?

Only 100. Yeah. So I think of like 70, 30, 80, 20. Whatever you're comfortable with. Yeah, but that should be your personal.

Be like, you know, going to the gym, whatever. Right. All those things. Yeah.

Like, I know you work out a lot. The only reason I know that is because you share that. But do you know that there's people that will work with you and respect you because you are in the gym?

Yeah.

They'll literally buy whatever it is you're selling because they're like, you know what? I kind of respect Jeff because he. He takes care of himself.

Yeah.

He's in the gym.

It says something about who you are.

Yeah. And then maybe you're not in the gym, but you have something else. Maybe you're like the little league coach and. Or maybe you really value this. Like, there's so many people who are amazing. Fathers, husbands, coaches, their athletes. Maybe it's just other basic things you do in life. So I think the big problem, bro, is like, people think when somebody gets successful with content, they're like, oh, I can't do that. Like, I wish people knew that I'm not special. Like, dude, I don't. I'm not like some talented super smart guy. I'm of maybe a slightly above average intelligence, but like, I'm, I'm just a normal dude nerd. I'm not. You would be the last guy. Like I told you, I just set up social not that long ago. And you could do it too. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you don't have to be remarkable. It just needs to be relatable.

Well, you know, going back to your origin story, you know, you have this frustration, right? You were making quote, unquote, good money, right? You're doing all the quote right things, or at least what everybody else in the industry is doing, yet you weren't fulfilled and you didn't necessarily enjoy the process. So you're at least open minded to something else and you're willing to put in the work. Like, okay, so here's one of the Jeff isms that I have, which is it's not survival of the fittest that wins, it's who's most adaptable to change.

Right?

And so to your point, you've adapted to change very well. You've learned this new skill of holding up this phone and doing this and that and the other thing where that's a skill that not everybody has invested like you, which is why you show up today. Today the way you show up.

Yeah. And it's like, there's a huge advantage to people in our industry who can pick up that device and just go. And you'd be surprised. Like, there's top producers, people who are like, you would think, oh, this guy, he's great. Or this gal, she's amazing. She, she's debilitated. She cannot post a video. I know. And so if you can do that skill, you just now put yourself in another category because now you can communicate with so many more people than anybody else. Huge advantage. So it's like, how do you want to dominate the competition? Do something they're not doing.

Yeah.

Invest in what you know, what they're not investing in. So part of it is like, yeah, let's innovate. But part of it is like, hey, I see things going this way. Our industry is usually late to the game. Let's just get there a little bit quicker than everybody else. Like, let's just start doing it. And it's not too late, by the way, right now. No.

Heck no.

I think people are still early days with content building. Personal brand is still early days in our industry.

Well, in a moment, I want to shift to, like, what's not changed. But you just reminded me about something and I'm curious to get your opinion on this.

Yeah.

Because as you know, the algorithms have changed and I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. But the point being is, like, it's now all about content. Right. It's not necessarily about followers per se.

Correct.

Yeah.

So it comes back to, like, this is the game you've got to play if you want to. If you want to play at a certain level in this, this new world. Right. Of digital marketing, you've got to get better at the game of content and producing quality content. Would you agree?

100%. So used to be, like, number of people follow you, that's who sees your videos. Now it doesn't matter. So you could have 80 followers, I could have 80,000. And we're on the same level playing field.

Right.

It's going to value the video that you post and it's going to show it to new people. And if new people watch it, it'll show it to a bunch of new people for free.

Yeah.

So it's probably the greatest opportunity for people who are without an audience because the people who have big followers and big number of subscribers, they're pissed because they're like, dude, I should just get a base level because I spent this time building. And the algorithm's like, we're only going to show videos to people that they watch. Yeah. So if you have 100,000 followers or subscribers on YouTube and you post a shitty video, it doesn't get any views. It's all about the content, which is.

One of the values you bring to the community, I think, is like, you're. You were one of the first people early on, I think that started you learned it yourself. And then you're like, hey, I want to show other people how to do this too. Because it obviously impacted your business in a huge way. And, you know, you and I know a lot of the similar people I interviewed the other day. Theoni. Right.

She's questioning it.

Right. And she, she generated 20 million in fundings on tick tock from 2024. Right. From TikTok. Right.

That's great. Yeah.

And so. But she learned the skill. Right.

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Now back to our show and what I'm curious about is because the content game, you know, and I'm finding this too because I'm shifting and putting some new focus on YouTube. Yeah, YouTube's like a whole nother animal. Gotta be that much better. But yeah. What would you like to say about. Because it's a bit daunting, I think to realize, you know, you talk about packaging, we talk about thumbnails and, you know, titles and things like that. If people are gonna be serious about this, what do they need to know?

Well, I think for the first part is not getting overwhelmed by all this. Right. It's just like, let me come up with a good video. Now for YouTube, it's a little different because you start with the title and the thumbnail in mind. Like, you don't have to have the whole design of the thumbnail, but you need to know what. What's the theme of this video? What's the title? So most of the time, like, people don't understand if they don't click the video, like it's not gonna. It doesn't work, you know, for, for whatever. You can't.

If they're not gonna watch it.

Yeah, yeah. If they don't get the click, you don't get it. So click through is the first and most important thing. And then did they stick around and watch the video?

Right.

So I always think, like, do some research. I actually learned this from Omar to research on YouTube. What are the videos that are working in this topic? Do some research. Maybe there's a tool called which everyone, this is A great tool people can use for YouTube. It's called 1 of 10, and it will tell you the top titles. Have you seen this?

Yeah, yeah. Thumbnails.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'll tell you the top titles based on your topic and your channel. And it will give you some success that other people have had. You can. You can basically put your own spin on it.

Right.

And you're looking for outliers. And so an outlier would be like, you have 100 subscribers, but you got 10,000 views.

Right.

That's a. That's a huge outlier. Okay, how did you do that? Well, it was the title and the thumbnail that worked. And now how could I make that for my video?

Right, so borrow the ideas.

Yeah. And just see what works. And then, you know, same thing. Like you said, innovate, adapt.

Right.

Just look at like, what's the deal?

This is a. This is not a sprint, right. This is a long game.

Yeah.

But what I love about YouTube is like, I've even that video, like the one you talked about with me asking Gary, I had somebody film while I'm asking the question. I threw that up on YouTube, I think. I don't know, five, six years. It's got like a hundred thousand views sitting. It's just been slowly people watch it. But I've had other videos where it's a year into the video and a few thousand people are still watching it every week, years after I posted it. And that's just like it's working for you. So I just think of all these little things as ways to duplicate yourself.

So it makes me then curious. Would you say Instagram, for example, because that's your primary channel at least has.

Yeah, that's where I built my community.

You think that's an easier place for people to start?

I would say so. And then like the only found great success on TikTok because she just hit it out of the park there. But like, her videos on Instagram don't do as well as on TikTok. But she crushes there. She still does well on Instagram, sure. But everyone's got to find their spot. So for me it was. I'm a little bit older. I'm not as young as Theani. So like, I know Instagram Skew is a little bit older than TikTok. So I found my tribe on Instagram.

Yeah.

And then a little bit on Facebook. Somebody else bro told me that they're loving LinkedIn.

I was going to.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't really do much on LinkedIn. But I know people who are crushing LinkedIn because they found their tribe there. So I think there's different strokes, different folks. But the bottom line is it's easier to start with short form than is long form. Like, take it on a YouTube channel. I noticed if you want to do that, great, go all in. But I just think when you try five different things, it gets all diluted. So I would suggest that Instead of the GaryVee advice, like, post on all platforms all day. It's not really practical. Like, let's just pick one platform. Now. What's cool about Instagram is it syncs with Facebook. So you're getting two for one, right? So that works. But, yeah, like, if you want to start with YouTube, that's great. But then someone's like, hey, well, what about all the short form? Yeah, I guess you could chop the long form for short form, but I think you should just, like, what is your opportunity that you can take advantage of? And then let's give it effort. This guy, Craig Ballantyne, he spoke to my group. He's like, neil, what is a level 10 opportunity for you? And I was like, well, it could be YouTube. It could be this. That. He's like, no, no, no. What is one opportunity that's level 10 for you? And I was like, okay, maybe it's speaking on more stages or, you know, whatever that is. So find that thing, pick it, and then let's give it level 10 effort. Because most people, like, they're failing because they have this level 10 opportunity in front of them, and they give it level three effort, and they're like, hey, it's not working. Yeah, bro. Like, when you wanted to marry your spouse, did you give it level three effort? Like when you were trying to get.

Her all in on that?

Yeah, you're level 10 effort. Because you're like, I remember sending gifts, right? I would. I don't know. People remember this. You could make mixed tapes. I made mixed. I would burn CDs. And she worked in there, bro.

Yeah, yeah.

She worked in the mortgage company in Vegas. I was, you know, I would literally, like, send the loan docs, and I would Hide My mixed CDs in there, like, as a gift. You know, it'll be like, just stuff. Like, I'm like, hey, where can we go here? Can we do this? Like, you know, level 10 effort, right? So what if you applied yourself that way? Like, that's such a good point. And I think anytime in your life, my life, and anybody watching or listening, when they applied level 10 effort. They got what they wanted, 100. So I think people just don't take it seriously, you know?

Well, and I think to put a cap on that, the real takeaway from that is you can't put a level 10 effort in multiple things.

Correct. You know, there's only so much thing you could do.

Yeah. So it's like you had to choose one spouse. Right. You got to choose perhaps one primary social platform to at least build your base on.

Yeah. For me, that was Instagram. And then later on, I started to add YouTube later on. I started at a podcast later on. Because what then what happens is the thing that's difficult for you eventually becomes super easy.

Yeah.

Second nature.

Sure.

It's like, what took you six hours before, it takes you like, six minutes.

Yeah.

So now you just quick, you can put it out, and then now you can move on to the next thing.

And in the beginning, it's going to be messy.

Yes.

And. But as you continue to go and get better, you'll get a process defined, and then eventually you can bring on other people, outsource editing or something like that.

Yeah. And I think people. I don't know if you hear this, but the biggest objection is, I don't have time.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, I made a video and then I made a call to action. And in the comments are 300 leads. Tell me, what is the more efficient use of one minute? You know, like, that is the best use of time, if you get it right. If you can do this. So in the beginning, yes, you got to do some work. And I think a lot about this. Like, hey, you don't get any return for six months. Like, same thing with the gym, probably, you know, so many things.

So what?

The biggest things that pay off the biggest, they don't pay you in the beginning.

Right.

You don't get, like, ROI day one. You might get lucky and get a deal on the first month, but that's cool. But, like, for the most part, the biggest benefits are going to come a little bit later in the growth curve. And that's why, because most people quit. And so I just think, like, for everybody out there, it's like, hey, man, how could I just stick with it longer than the other guys? Because I've just seen people come and go over the years, and then they're all hot for 90 days, then you never see them again. And then they come back and they're just on and off. And it's like, that's why you don't get the result.

Yeah.

It's like, are you willing to embrace the suck?

Yeah. And then the other part I think is like, what are people? What is your one to many strategy? So the reason why I felt burnt out, stuck, and just tired of this is because I was doing everything one to one. Right. And at some point, like, if you keep working like that, you'll just burn out.

Like, your reach is limited.

Yeah. So even if it was just to do 20 person classes, you know the power of 20 person classes.

Yeah.

You're going to spend an hour anyways. Why not talk to 20 instead of one? You just did a 20x on your time and ROI, right, exactly. So videos one too many classes. Like, I just think people need to find that whatever their one to many thing is, if it's YouTube, that's great. And then just give it effort. Like it's just 7 or above. You don't have to go to level 10, but like level 7 or above effort. And watch how not only your business change, your whole life will change because now you have more time.

Yeah.

So someone's like, I, I have more time with my family now than I did before because I can just do one webinar, get the leads for the whole month.

Yeah. Yeah. You've created scale and leverage in your business. And, and as we said a moment ago, it may, it may take more time to do it early on in the beginning because you're learning and growing and all these different things coming at you and you feel a little bit of overwhelmed. But if you're willing to embrace the suck and keep going through that, things will get better and you will. Then it'll turn for you. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you think? I would ask you, is this because you coach a lot of Los Angeles? Why do you think they're so reluctant to try digital marketing?

I think it's like you said earlier, one is the fear of judgment. I'm gonna look bad on camera. I'm gonna look. It's, it's. Yeah, I'm gonna look foolish, be embarrassed. I think those are the big reasons and I think those, you know, the whole. Originally it was just like, this is uncomfortable. Holding this up. Yeah, it's uncomfortable. But now, I mean, it's such an integrated part of society. Like, dude, I'm at the gym the other day, okay. And there's this guy on the, on the bench with the barbell and doing an incline bench. And he's got his phone stacked right on the bar. No, In a tripod next to it. And by the way, side note, like, the dude was not in super good shape.

Okay.

But it all just hit me. I'm like, it's normal now to see people recording themselves out there in the world.

Yeah.

You know, like, it used to be.

You be worried about what did they think about me? And I was like, I don't think.

Anything I don't know about. Like, I used to be like, people are looking at me and I'm doing this.

You know, the airport. I always think everyone's looking at me. But then now you're like, you know what? They're probably not. And even if they do, who cares? Yeah. They're probably thinking it's just another vlogger or another person posting on Instagram normal.

And it's accepted. So that's no longer an excuse. The excuse now is, how do you get yourself comfortable doing this? And it's going to come back to what you said, which is reps and just, you know, getting it down more and more and more.

And then it's also like, you need a bigger why. So for me, it was like, hey, I want to. Obviously, I want to make more money.

Sure.

But I just wanted to be more happy at work. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it sucks going to a job you don't like and being burnt out.

And so it's like, you're also creative.

Yeah.

So it's a creative aspect to you.

Exactly. So I was like, I grew up in music and creative, and then you.

You.

So I think this is a big thing for people. Like, what did you used to do for fun when you were in high school? And for me, it was like skateboarding and playing in a band and doing all these creative things. And then as you get into the corporate world, all that creativity just gets beaten out of you. And then eventually I'm wearing a freaking suit to the work. I mean, imagine me in a suit, you know? No, I literally was in a collared shirt every day, you know, and just going to work, doing what I was.

Told, putting your head down.

Yeah. Make a salary and, you know, maybe make some good money. But it's like, dude, what happened to the creative you or the adventurous you or whatever that is? And I know people have that in their personal life, but what if you try to incorporate a little of that into your business?

Sure.

That's a sweet spot of like, okay, I'm going to get some of that creativity back. And then it's like, now you have all these benefits because nobody else is doing that.

Yeah. And a quick note about the creatives. You know this as well as I do, that they're. They're in our industry, on the mortgage side, there probably are a fair amount of people who aren't creative. They're more analytical.

Yes.

Right. And so they. That's. I think part of the reasons why they've been reluctant is that it doesn't. It's not their DNA. But on LinkedIn, you can be analytical and you can lean into the skill of writing. Because writing still works on LinkedIn. Yes. You know, yes. It's becoming more of a video platform, but hey, writing can still work. And there's a science to that, too.

I'll give you a hack that you can use. Like, I post something every day on X just to get the thought off my head.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So maybe just an ism. Something I stand for. So that was going back to making that list.

Yeah.

Those are great topics to turn into tweets. Just short and sweet. And it's actually a hard thing to do in the beginning because you tend to ramble on. You tend to write too much. The communicator, who can give his lesson or teach whatever he wants to teach in the fewest amount of words wins.

Right.

Like, so you want it short and concise actually helps you.

Yes.

So I remember getting really good over the years. Like, somebody asked me, hey, dude, how do you get better at writing? And I just screenshot the top of my Twitter and it's got 8,000 plus posts. I'm like, here you go. Right? 8,000 posts on Twitter.

Lesson learned.

Yeah, there you go. So I just started writing more, and then I share one of my thoughts every single day, pretty much on Instagram. Stories.

Yeah.

So. And people say, how do you make that story? I literally just screenshot the X post, post on my story. And then I saw that I was getting good feedback on these. So then I was like, why don't I just turn that into a reel? So I've had so many viral reels on Instagram from that are just a screenshot from X. Took me like, like you said, it's just writing. So for the guy or gal who's like, I hate video, you can just write your thoughts. Then another piece of content that's blowing up on Instagram is like, you don't need to be in the video. It could just be B roll of you. So, like, there could be a camera shot of us talking.

Right.

We won't use that audio. Put a music, a sound over it for free in Instagram and then you Type text over it, you put pov, you know, and you type some text and that video blows up. We just had a guy in our group, this guy, this real estate agent, Martin. He said he was getting what, 3 million views last month? And he's not even in the videos really. They're just B roll of houses and putting text over them.

Yeah.

So there's just so many ways to win.

That's the message.

Yes.

Just so many ways to win. Are you committed to finding a way, right.

To.

To, to find your place to show up in whatever the platform it is?

Yeah. And then just, I would say dedicate just a little bit of time each week to doing it, and then you'll find you'll have more fulfillment from your job. And then if you like your job more, like, I think it comes through in what you do.

Yeah.

Like if people are kind of burnt out, not excited about work, you can tell, you know, it starts to get in your conversation. And so if you get just enthusiastic about work again, your close rate goes up. People want to be around you more like they want to refer you business. They just remember you. Yeah, it's just an energy game.

People are drawn to energy. All right, so we're almost out of time here. Let's kind of begin to land this plane, as they say. Yes, sir. Real quick, what would be your hot take? We talked about what's changed marketing wise, digitally and all that. Any quick hot takes on what do you think hasn't changed at the core of, you know, marketing and sales and all that.

So at the core, just coming from a place of like, okay, when I started posting videos, I didn't. Wasn't thinking, how am I going to get rich at this? It's just like, how could I impact somebody? Okay, I remember it sounds cheesy, but like, I remember like the feedback of like, hey, you helped me with this. And then like, first thought is, well, why didn't you work with me? You know, it's like, hey, I bought a house. But I. But then I'm like, once you get over that, you're like, dude, that's really cool. Like something I posted on the Internet impacted somebody's activity. That's, that's. I'm onto something here. Let me keep doing that. So coming from a place of like, just trying to help people and then just realizing that the big wins will come later on, you know, so you have to play, play a long game. But I think there's just smart things you can do along the way to like shorten the curve. Yeah, you know, just like posting better, more concise videos, practicing what you're going to say first. You know, all these little things are just hacks to get you there quicker. So the learning curve can be a lot shorter for people today than it was years ago.

100%. Well, we got people like you and other people to follow.

Yeah.

Shorten the learning curve.

And that's. Yeah. I think like once you figure that out, now it's just about the conversions. Yeah. So you're a big proponent of webinars and classes. I think that's a great way to convert because I don't think people want leads. I think they want better leads.

Yeah.

I would rather have like, let me ask 100 people who are quote unquote leads to attend something of the 140 attend or 50 attend of the 50 or 40, like another maybe seven of them want to move forward.

Yeah.

So that process became the funnel to find out who's serious.

Yeah.

And I didn't have to call all 100. I just get to talk to the seven who are rally who are actually interested. So just be more efficient with your time.

Yeah. Back to the one of many approach. Because social media is one to many events and classes are one of many.

And if you don't want to do classes or events, you can just do. You can do the funnel online. You can have like a questionnaire.

Right.

Well, people will say, well, not people don't have the time to fill it out. Well, that's your filtering. If they don't take like two minutes to fill something out, they're not serious. So then like, if you had 100 people and only seven finished, those are your seven people, right?

Yeah, yeah. Everything's a qualifier. We want to only be spending time really with the people who are probably ready to buy now or, or you know, closer. Closer. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of what Theonia was talking about the other day is there's different stages of people. Right. There's the, you know, various levels of where are they on that journey. And so that's why you want to have this content machine is to bring them in at those very. So you can consistently have that kind of funneling, sifting, sorting process by the time they get to talk to you, you know, you know, they've already gone through the various qualifiers of like, you got a seven out of ten qualified here.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And then like, I think last thing on the content is like realizing where you're making content for. So if you make Content for bottom of the funnel people who ready to move now, it may not get that many views, but if it does get a client for you, that's a huge roi. So if I get like two clients from a video that didn't do well, that's viral for me. Like, I call that VFM viral for me. If you got a business opportunity, connection or a client. Yeah, dude, that's great. It doesn't matter how many views it got. But then if you do want to reach a lot of people, maybe that's a video. That's not a sales video for the bottom of the funnel. Maybe that's just a general topic that appeals to way more people, so that can go viral. But it's not a sales thing, you know, so you. You need both. You know, it's not. The answer is not one or the other. If you do all sales, you probably won't get many more followers.

Right.

You do all the follower content, but you never do call stacks. You're not gonna get any clients. So you need both steps, and that's.

Something you learn with the reps. That's it. All right, let's close this out at. Let's talk about forward real quick. You've got your. Your big event coming up. This is the fifth year.

Yeah. Were you at the first one?

I was not, unfortunately. That'd be a good badge to carry.

Yeah.

But this will be my fourth one then going to here in Vegas, it's. It's got to be one of the top business events for the mortgage and real estate industry. You know, thousand people are coming. Like. Like, that's pretty. Not. Not normal to get a thousand people in today's market to fly to Las Vegas.

Yeah. Is it like a highest? I feel like it's a really cool. Just nod to building a community because there's People have a million followers. Right. And they could launch something and no one will show up.

Right.

And then there's somebody else, like, smaller audience, but they would show. I would much rather have people that actually are into what you're doing.

Yeah.

You know, so the numbers doesn't mean anything anymore. But yeah. I remember starting this in Vegas during COVID and we couldn't even get one of the facilities because they. You had to. They weren't doing events.

Yeah.

Or gathering. So we did Brad email Bradley's office underground. 75 people didn't know what I was doing, but I put that on. And I remember afterwards the feedback was like, dude, this was great. This is one of the best events or the Best event I went to, I'm like, holy crap. I didn't even know what I was doing. But I just. But the main premise, bro, is like, bringing in outside people to our industry so we could innovate.

Yes. Not the same parade of people.

Yeah. And then also, how could we do things different? Like, I know there's people that feel like me out there who are like, hey, maybe I want to do things a little different than the standard way.

Yeah.

Maybe I feel like I should be doing more with my life or like, I'm called to do something bigger than just do, you know, transactions. Nothing wrong with that. But, like, I want to make a bigger impact. Those are my people. And I was like, if I feel like that and these few people feel like that, I wonder if there's more. So then I just started, hey, let's go for the next one. So we went from 75 to 700. Pretty big gap, you know, like jump. But I was like, hey, if I'm going to do it, let's just go all in. And I thought I would get people like Gary Vee and all these speakers. And I thought, if you build it, they will come. Well, it turns out nobody comes or just your friends, but, like, the general public, you know, maybe they won't show up because they don't know you. They don't know if it's good.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of people don't realize when you're putting these things together, they don't just buy what you're selling, they buy you.

Yes.

And so I just continue to build that brand of, like, I'm going to show up every day.

Right.

And connect with the many people. I think people don't realize, like, I'd probably do, you know, 30, 40 events a year in person. Then I do way more virtually. But I just go out and, like, I built my network one handshake at a time.

Right.

I go to Detroit, go to Cleveland, go to freaking Florida, Phoenix. Sometimes for like 60 people, sometimes for 600 people. But I do so many different things, and it's just really cool to connect with people one to one.

Yeah.

And Gary gave me this advice long time ago on a podcast. He's like, you need to scale the unscalable. So I personally, for that first event, we went to 75 to 7:50. I DM'd so many people. I just blocked it on the calendar and said, and personally invited. No, I no bot. I was like, hey, Jeff, I'm putting on this event. Here's why I Think you should be there. And dude, I think you would love it. So I just want to personally invite you and if you're interested, let me know. And I would do that 100 times. Really, like multiple times a week. And out of the thousands of people that I invited, 700 came. Wow. And so, like, I think that's scaling down scalable. Like, you have to do that work.

Right.

So I just kind of built it from the ground up. And then what a really cool thing happened a few years ago. People that came to the event started telling their friends to come.

Oh, yeah.

Like, yo, dude, you should come. This is really cool. So it takes a while, but I finally, like, this is our fifth forward. This is the first year. It sold out months ahead of it. And it's because of brand. So everyone always told me brand is like the most powerful thing. And I'm like, yeah, I'll believe it when I see it. But now I'm like starting to feel, because it's like when people see the name, they have a feeling associated with that. If they feel quality, innovation, whatever what you want them to feel.

Right.

And it takes years, but we finally got it.

Yeah, you sure did, man. I'm looking forward to it again, like I said, you know, fourth year in a row and you've got people walk out of there. It's hard to describe what it is. It's different. Right. It's not. It's not just purely these mortgage tactics that have been played out. And again, that's not to do a disservice to the fundamentals of what it takes.

Yeah, those are just as valuable.

Just as valuable. But I think you're opening people's minds up. Right. And leveling up their. Their possibility of what they see for themselves.

Yeah. And it's also about like, hey, what's the exit, you know, from this industry? Maybe I want to do something else in the future. So it kind of gets you thinking in a marketing terms and yeah, maybe you could scale this business. Maybe. There's a lot of people, bro, who come and they're like, you know what? I've never had a team. Now I'm going to build a team.

Right.

I feel like a leader.

Yep.

It opened that role up for me. Or, you know, people don't realize when you start making content for our industry, a lot of people within the industry want to work with you.

Yeah.

So how do you monetize that? Through recruitment? Maybe you do like affiliate things. You can offer products and services. I remember software companies within the industry being like, hey, would you recommend this and I'll pay you. And I'm like, I was already doing it for free, but yeah. Pay you to pay me and then they'll pay you a lot of money.

Yeah.

Like, like it just opens the kind of the doors to just. There's other things out there besides getting your next client. Maybe it's your next hundred clients. Maybe it's a developer down the street that you could now get because you're in the room now in the conversation. Maybe it's like now you start recruiting and now you have this whole downline. Like, I know people at the exp. Real Models, where they've, because of personal brand, they've recruited so many people. Yeah. And now half their income or more is passive.

Yeah.

They never even thought that was possible. So I guess, yeah. Just all that to say is like, it, it kind of gives you way more paths to making money than just getting your next client.

Yeah.

A personal brand.

Right. An audience, a platform can do so many things for you beyond just the basics of, you know, earning money from your primary thing.

Did you ever think you're going to write a book? Like when you were younger? Like, I don't know.

When I was younger?

No, no.

It was about getting your business growing. But then, like, why did I want.

To write a book? For personal brand, for credibility. You know, it's like, oh, you're, you're a published author. Right. That must mean something. Yeah, well, it just means I, you know, put in, like you put in the sweat equity to make it a good book. Right.

And I think now you can use the AI to help you.

Yeah, right, exactly.

But even so, like, that's because you know the value of doing this. And then like, now you're a published author and like, now you can sign books for people and give your books away. I think that's something that few people can do.

Right.

And so these are just like opportunities that are out there for everybody. And I don't think they, they realize it.

Well, let's just close out on this in terms of like, if you're listening to this right now, you're watching this, you know, if you want to get out of the chase and actually have business come to you. Attract business.

Yes.

You've got to show up online, you've got to have a presence. People have to know you exist, build a platform. What I like to say, a personal brand, a place you got to stop being a secret, you know?

Well, I just think this is the bottom line. You got people in your Network that refer you business, why did they refer you? Maybe it's because you're hardworking, you're trustworthy, you communicate well, you get the deal done, you're a problem solver. A lot of people tell me they're good at putting the puzzle together, whatever. Those are solution oriented, whatever. So these people in this circle know that about you and they send you their business. All I want to do is those same things I want to put on the Internet. If, let's just say, for example, if 100 people know that about you right now and you make this much money, what if a thousand people knew that about you?

Right?

What if 10,000 people knew that about you? How many more opportunities would you get because of that? And if you just do the math, it's just like. It gets pretty crazy.

Yeah, exactly. Awesome, bro.

Thank you, bro.

Thank you. Loved it. Hey, by the way, where can people go to follow you? We'll put a link in the show notes and all that.

But yeah, so just on Instagram, Neil Holmes, shoot me a message. And then this year's event is five sold out. But if there's, there's a Facebook group and I think there's always some people last minute who can't go. So you can probably pick up a ticket that way.

But at least you know, follow you on YouTube, follow you on Instagram because you have some other resources that people can connect with as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Dm, if you're listening to this or watching this right now, let Neil know your one big takeaway from this podcast and that we appreciate that.

Thanks, bro.

All right, we'll see you guys. Bye. Okay, that's it for today's episode.

Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes. Your proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days. Imagine never having to cold call and again, instead building real lasting relationships with top producing agents who want to send you business with done for you presentations, marketing automation, weekly coaching. It's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun. So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income, visit MortgageMarketing Pro or check the link in the show notes. And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage bros who've already seen incredible results. Thanks for listening and I'll see you.

On the next episode.