How to Achieve Fearless Branding - with Neel Dhingra | Episode 311

My personal brand is what people say about me when I'm not in the room. What would they say about you like, or would they say anything? You know, some people don't have a personal brand at all. So they'd be like, if your name came up, nothing happened. There's no association, there's no style, there's nothing there versus like the more things they know about you and can associate you with those feelings or things that becomes your brand.

Hey everybody, what's up? On this podcast I'm talking to my buddy Neil Dhingra, who I met many, many years ago. I think it was pre pandemic. We met in person. He did something very unusual and he has a very non traditional, non conventional way of thinking. And I want to tap into his brain how he built his personal brand and how he's able to create an event from nothing and build a really engaged and pretty amazing community of people in the real estate mortgage finance space. And it's, it's pretty neat to see. Neil, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Chris. Appreciate it.

For people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little story about how you got here.

My name is Neil. My brand is Neil Holm. And so a lot of people think that's my last name. My last name is Dingra. But I started off in the real estate and mortgage industry just putting out content to build a personal brand, grow, try and get more clients, honestly, just get more business. And it ended up taking off and my business quadrupled over a four year period. I was able to kind of reach the heights of my industry and do really well. But along the way, a lot of people within the industry and within, you know, even adjacent industries started reaching out to me and say, hey Neil, could you come speak at my thing or would you mind teaching me how you did what you did? And I saw a huge opportunity to help people do the same thing that I just did, which was build a personal brand to get more clients, kind of escape the rat race of chasing people and doing hard sales. Attract the people that they actually want to work with and just enjoy your life again. A lot of people get stuck in this day to day grind and I found a way to escape that by doing marketing. And that's what made my job fun again. And so I've been having a lot of fun over the last few years helping people within the industry. And we started a company called Forward Academy and we have an annual event that Chris was just talking about the Forward event where we have a thousand people come out. Now, it started off as like 70 people in a dark room, and now it's kind of grown to thousands of people across the country, even worldwide. Like, we had people from Europe, Dubai, Canada come out this year and it's really cool to see just me pressing record on my phone led to this cool opportunity of me connecting with and doing cool things like this. Never thought that would be possible.

Here's what I think. Neil is a classic left brainer, which is like, he's kind of in the finance mortgage space. And it's not one where you typically think this is the hotbed of creativity. And it's something that I've had to discover over a period of time that there are a lot of really creative people in industries that aren't traditionally looked at as creative. And maybe in, in another life, Neil, you're a frustrated designer or content creator that just happened to fall into the business that you're in. But it's been amazing to watch your journey and your transformation. And the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because there are a lot more people probably listening to this podcast right now that might fit into your category versus my category. And I think that's why I want to have you on the show, because I, I think your story is going to resonate with a lot more people. Because if Neil can do it in his vertical by being a little bit different, by showing up and press and record, as you say, and having your life transformed, that's going to give a lot of people hope. And it doesn't need to be this gigantic leap of doing crazy content things. But I want to take us back to the beginning. There's a period in time when you're doing what you're doing. What inspired you. What was that spark that told you, hey, it's time for us to make content, to get out of the shadow and start making what we do more visible.

Yeah. So the way I did this was like, I was the last dude to get on social media. Just, I was doing the typical making cold calls, buying leads online to get customers doing all that stuff, knocking on doors. And then what happened was I saw my friends, you know, were like, hey man, you need to get on social media. Like, what's your Facebook? What's your Instagram? I don't even have an account, Chris. Like, I would be the guy who would make fun of other people. Like, hey, you guys are giving up all your privacy to Zuckerberg. Like, I'm not playing on Social media, I got real work to do and so I would make fun of everybody. But then finally I was like, you know what, I'm going to set up an account. And I was just in the shadow, not even a profile pic, and just watching other people's content and started to see like, people like Gary Vee pop up and these other influencers and they would talk about this huge opportunity in content marketing and with social media. And I was like, oh shit. From a business perspective, this sounds pretty cool. Like I'm a nerd, I love data. And it's like he's talking about this untapped opportunity within our industry to put out content. So I was like, you know what, let me go to a conference and learn some marketing stuff. So there was a marketing conference coming up. I ended up getting a ticket to go to this thing. And part of the ticket, if you bought the highest level ticket, was the guy who's putting on the conference would do like a one hour coaching call with you. So I jumped on this coaching call with this dude who wasn't anything special, but you know, he was like the first guy I kind of connected with and he was like, Neil, when you come out to the conference, get a videographer, document your experience here. Like just talk about what you learned, you know, make a highlight video. And plus, people will think you're really cool if you walk around the event with a video dude following you. Like, it'll give you some credibility. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. So literally the coaching call dude's not that bright. But that was one piece of advice that I was like, you know what, I'm gonna try that shit. So I went on to Google, looked up like videographers in la, got onto this website for like job website for videographers, found a guy who just by luck happened to be good. And this dude still works with me today. You probably met him, Eric. We've worked together since 2018 and I randomly found him on a website in LA in 2018 for this event. And so anyways, we make our first video there and he's like, neil, talk about your experience at the event. What'd you learn? What do you want to make the video about? And I was just like, he hits record. I just freeze. I can't even say anything. And then finally we get through that video. If you saw the outtakes or like, you know that what we shot that day, it would be so embarrassing. Like I couldn't even speak on camera. And so anyways, we got through that, posted that Video. And then from there I just started putting out cringe content, you know, started putting out videos.

Let me hit pause here. There's too much stuff here, bro.

You know, it's really bad when you can't even watch your own videos because the team. Then my team will embarrass me now and they'll make a highlight video. They'll pull videos from 2019. It's so bad.

I'm going to call this your Poindexter years. This is when you had the part in the middle, right? Looking a little nerdy. And I have to say, I love it because the contrast from where you started to where you are now. And I want to stay in this moment, give us the gory details of how cringe it was back then. Like when you look back at.

So what I see is just no confidence. I knew what I was doing. I'm the same dude. I'm just as smart. Maybe I'm a little dumber now because as you get older, you know, you start to get a little slower. But I was actually smarter then than I am now. But anyways, I'm really smart, but I can't articulate things on camera. So I just couldn't be myself. So it's just really stiff, really worried about what are people going to say about me? Like just in my head. And then on top of that, I think the main thing was just the lack of confidence on camera. You know, it's one thing to say something, but it's another thing to actually communicate where people believe what you're saying. And so I, I was not believable. I was just trying to get through the video. And what I found, Chris, was like, even with those bad videos at that time, because it was earlier on in the, you know, in the content creation world, I still got noticed. I still got some clients from it. People would still reach out and say, hey, dude, saw your videos. I don't know if they're just being nice or what, but I was still getting some, like, recognition within my local market from making cringe videos.

What was the internal self talk like when Eric looked at you and said, hey, answer this question. What were you saying inside your head?

I'm an idiot. Why did I even sign up for this to do this? Like, what was I thinking that I could pull off a video? I don't even. I'm not that guy. What are people gonna say when I actually post this? Then I was thinking to myself, let me just get through it so I can finish this video with this guy. Pay him. And then I don't even have to post the video. I hope he never even sends me the finished product. Cause I'll never use this thing. I just need to get through the day. Cause I had my wife with me and she's watching me and I don't want to. I was like embarrassed because she's like, she's supporting me, like, hey, let's do this together. And I was like, man, I'm probably looking like an idiot here. And just, I was. So my main thing was just let me get through that and then I'll get to the other side of this thing.

Well, thanks for sharing that with us because I think that's what a lot of people are saying. I mean, you're so self conscious, hyper self aware. Your wife's there, this professional videographer's in front of you. You're the only person who's like in the spotlight not knowing what they're doing and that saying to yourself, like, I just need to finish this asap so I can just end this, throw away the file. They never want to see this again. I'm just going to survive the day. And that was just 2018, 2019, right?

Correct. And then, so what's the funny story is while we're shooting that video, this guy's with a gimbal and I'm miked up and we're watching out and then he's getting highlights B roll of me just walking in and out throughout the day. I would walk up to the other thing that the guy told me, you know, they're calling. The coaching call was like, hey, there's going to be influencers there. So at this conference, Chris was Patrick Bet, David Bradley, Grant Cardone, and so on. The I have is in the VIP section. So I would go walk up to them to say, hi, love your book. I'm a big fan. You know, say whatever I would say. And my videographer would capture the B roll of me just chatting with these people so that we could use it in the highlight video. So it would be like really cool footage for me to use in the future. And I had no idea that I would need that footage. But like the dude told me to do it, so I just did it. So anyways, while we were there, a dude comes up and was like, hey, Neil, could you sign my book? My like program book for the conference? And it was some younger guy, he just, he wanted my autograph because he thought I was something special because I had a videographer following me around. I was like, man, dude, that guy was right on the coaching call. People think you're cool if you have a videographer with you. They thought I was, like, one of the speakers or something.

So some random kid thought you were somebody because he had a videographer. Because of proximity. You're in the VIP section. He sees you speaking to other people, so you must be someone noteworthy. And then, of course, only noteworthy people have videographers following them around, or so we think.

Correct? Yeah. So it was like, oh, like, perception is reality. And then when I finally got that video after it got edited, luck just. I think it's like, kind of like God's work, you know? Like, luckily, the dude I worked with was really good at video. He was super nice. We became friends right away, and so it was really cool. Like, he made this dope edit of the thing where I barely spoke in it. But the video was really good. Like, he cut down the speaking times for me because I was so bad. But he was a good video producer, so, like, he made it look really fun and cool, and he grabbed all the shots he needed. It was actually, like, better than what the event was producing. So then I posted that video because I was like, oh, this made me look really cool. I'm talking to Grant Cardone in the video. I'm talking to pbd. It looks cool. So I got Brand Lyft from this guy who luckily made a dope edit.

Okay, you're a business guy. You understand numbers way better than I do. I have to do the numbers here. What event was this? What was the VIP ticket? How much did it cost you? Do you remember?

This ticket was $2,500. I think the event was called Driven or something like that. It was a marketing event. It was in LA at the Ritz Carlton. The regular ticket was, like, 300 bucks. And then they had an offer on Social for 2,500 bucks. You could be in the VIP section. Plus he would do a coaching call. So I bought that ticket.

Did you have to buy a ticket for Eric, too?

Before I went to the event, I emailed them and said, hey, I have a videographer with me. And I got his permission on the coaching call to bring a videographer with me. So they didn't even charge me for it at that time. It was, like, kind of not as common as it is today.

Okay, well, that's cool. That was really smart of you to do that. Now I know you pretty well these days because we've spent a lot of time chatting on and off stage. And the one thing I noticed about you, which I really admire, which I don't have. And I'm just going to put this out there. You are willing to spend a lot of money to build relationships and to kind of move the timeline of your life faster. You're willing to pay to go faster. And it's just remarkable to me. Now, I'm just curious, from your own upbringing, your background, is, is this something that was normal in your family or is this something unique to you?

So, no, it is definitely not part of my upbringing. My parents, immigrant family from India, very cheap. You know how it is coming up. Like, we would lie to the Disneyland people about how old we are so we could get the child ticket. Like, classic shit. Don't order any soft drinks. When we go out to dinner, it's water only. Just penny pinching, middle class, nothing to complain about, but just really penny pinching. Because my parents were so averse to risk, it was always like, go to college, get the job, become a doctor, become a lawyer. That was the whole plan. So that was not the upgrading. But what I found was, as I got further along in business and investing, I had experienced some losses along the way. So for example, I had put some money in the stock market and some real estate investments during 2008. During that recession, I lost it all. So it was kind of a dark time. But I quickly came back through business. And so it kind of changed my relationship with risk because I realized, like, money's a tool, you know, you could use it. And then, dude, what's the worst that happens if you lost all your money? So like a lot of us, you might be watching or listening to this or you could think back to when this was in your life, when you had no money and you just kind of were paycheck to paycheck. I was kind of happy during that time, bro. Like, I wasn't like broke, like starving. I was making good, decent money, like two, three grand a month. And I lived with some friends and we had fun. And I would make money and spend it and make money, spend it. And it wasn't like a dark time. So I was thinking like, well, what happens if I went back to there? But now I have the knowledge that I have in business now. So what I found was like, the best investment I've ever made is the skill to make money, to get clients, to get business. And so, you know, along the way in business, I would do different marketing things. Not on social, but just different sales and marketing things to make money. And I was always able to do that. So even when the worst case happened where I lost everything and came back from, just changed my whole feeling about money. It was like, okay, well, I could spend this. There's upside. There's also the worst case scenario where it turns out to be that $2,500 I spent on a ticket could be a complete waste of money, but what's the upside? And so it just started opening my eyes to that. And so as I started to spend money in personal development, my risk tolerance changed and I was like, okay, I spent $2,500 and it worked out. Next time I'm gonna spend 5k. Next time I'm spend a 10,000, you know, and kind of just leveled up from there. Along the way, I spent money on things that were a complete waste of time and money. They, they was, it was a scam. But I also found things that were not. And I got a 10x return or 100x return on the money.

There's a common thread here that I see in thoroughbred entrepreneurs, and I would describe you as one is your propensity to put money at risk, knowing that sometimes you're going to lose, but in the long run, you'll win. And that's how you play the game. And if you, you make a small bet and it works, you're like, let's see how far this bet can go and just make increasingly larger bets. And so I want to highlight a few of those moments and then we can talk about whichever ones you want. The way that you and I met was very unusual. And you did something that no one had done before, but it has since done. You basically booked a one hour coaching call with me and then you kind of pull the little thing, but we'll talk about that. Like, I want you to tell that story and what your thinking was because I want people to understand the way your brain works, because it's fascinating to me.

Yeah, I wanted to connect with Chris. I watched your videos on YouTube and loved, like, the kind of creative way you're approaching business, even though your audience was creative. I was in business. Left brain, right brain, that whole thing you talked about. Right. So I was like, okay, I got to connect with this guy. I got to do some content with him. How could I do that? And I went to your website and you were selling coaching calls. And this was luckily before you raised the price of these. Right. So I got kind of lucky. It was a sweet spot there where you were undervaluing your time, I would say.

I think it was 500 bucks right.

Yeah, I think it was a thousand. I think since then it's gone up to 5k, maybe more. I don't know, it's 5k now. But luckily this was before inflation. Right? So I was able to, I was able to book the call at $1,000 price point. And then I DMed Chris and I said, hey, Chris, I booked a call with you. I've already paid for it. Booked it. I'm actually going to be in LA at this time with my media team. Could we do the call as a one hour podcast at your studio? We'll come to you, make it easy. And to my surprise, you messaged back, said, yeah, let's do it. I was like, oh shit, it worked, let's go. And so we ended up booking it, coming to your studio at the time in Santa Monica, and we shot an hour episode there live, which then I turned into probably 20 pieces of micro content, plus an hour long episode on my YouTube channel. And then I got a lot of brand lift because, hey, Neil, dude, how are you? Sitting down with Chris Do? Like you're at the future in Santa Monica doing video with content with Chris. I'm like, yeah, man, you should be following me. You should be learning from me. I'm doing some big things. So I was using it. And then I would leverage that episode to get the next person. And the next person, my previous guests included Chris Do. Then I did it with somebody else and so on and so forth. And I just got a lot of, like, I got a lot of brand lift from that. Even though I wasn't necessarily that good on with my own content yet, I would leverage other people. So if I could just ask you a few questions. And I remember watching back that interview, my questions are terrible even, like I was scared. Cause like, if you get a dumb interview sometimes, Chris, you'll actually tell them they're kind of dumb in the interview. You know, you'll be like, can you rephrase that question? I don't even understand what you said. And I was like, oh, let me re ask the question for clarification.

I just want everybody to know when I ask somebody to rephrase, it's not me thinking you're dumb. It's just I want to make sure I understand the question.

Yeah, but to be fair, my questions were terrible. You know, like I was rambling, no confidence on camera, same kind of problem. But it's also just like, dude, just jump in. You know, what's the worst that's going to happen? And so how do you get to a good interview. Well, you do some freaking bad ones first, you know what I mean? So that's how I did it. So I did that. I did the same thing, Chris, with so many other people that I got to connect with. You know, there was leaders within my industry, I would do the same thing. I would somehow buy their product or service or if they had an event, support their business. Because what I found was there's a hack to connecting with people who are above you. You can't sometimes pay these people because they're already successful in business, but what you could do is you could buy their products or services. And I found that like successful entrepreneurs have like, like a ladder of priorities. The top of that is like themselves, their family. Below that is their, probably their employees or their team. Below that is their customers. Below that is their followers. And then below that is everybody else. So how do you move up like from follower, become a customer. If you become a customer, even if you bought something of $500 and you probably attested this too, like somebody buys one of our things for even 100 bucks, but they message you and said, hey, dude, I bought your thing and loved it. You take the time to respond because they're a customer. So it just moved me up the ladder by saying, hey, I've already bought your thing. Can we do X, Y or Z? And so I use that same strategy to connect with so many more people.

Yeah, that's a great observation. You remind me of another entrepreneur friend of mine who lives in Taiwan. What he does is he brokers deals between really ginormous brands, multi billion dollar brands and a level celebrities. And he has to kind of figure out how he can get in touch with the celebrity. And it's a game that he plays. And he goes through all kinds of research and creativity to figure out how he can build that relationship. And you remind me of that kind of that same problem solving thinking. Now I'll tell you on the other side, here's what happened. Neil reaches out books said, okay, cool, we're gonna do a thing. I don't know who Neil is just at this point. And then he sends, hey, I'm gonna be in la. Can we do this in person? And I think there was one more step in here where there was another message. So the relationship kept changing slightly, but maybe that's just my faulty memory. Then you're like, oh, by the way, can we film this? And instead of doing this, we'll do this podcast. The reason why I said yes was no one had asked me this before they booked me for coaching, they would ask me to do podcasting, but not in this way. So I think there's the novelty of something being the first in that. Just, I'm like, I don't know who this guy is, but let's go for it. If it doesn't work out, I'll never do that again. If it works out, it'll be fine. And I think there's something about you. And let's take it to another level. Tell the Billie Jean story.

Yeah. So Billie Jean, I was 2020, you know, so I'd gotten better at content, had some business growth, and I was getting a lot of people reaching out to me from within the industry to do coaching and do my programs and things like this. So I saw Billie Jean speak. And Bill, if those of you don't know, his company's called Billie Jean is marketing bgim. And he is kind of like at the time and he still is today, he just doesn't do as much of it. But he was the king of like paid ads and media and sales and online sales and digital marketing. So emails, videos, YouTube, Instagram, whatever. So I saw him do one of these talks at one of the events I went to, because I would be a sponge. I would go to all the events and learn. I would create content in the hallways. I would go try and grab people. Another side note, I would go grab people who spoke at the event as they were coming off or getting in the hallways and say, hey, my name's Neil. I'm creating a highlight video for this event. Could we grab five minutes really quick? And we would shoot a quick interview with that person. Now they might have thought that I'm making a highlight video for like the people putting on the event. I didn't say I was, but I would just say, hey, I'm making a highlight video. So I would connect with so many people. So I did that with Billie Jean and then I ended up following him. And so he one day he's on social, this was maybe six months later, and he posts on his story or his feed, I can't remember. He says, hey, I'm looking to take on a one on one client and I'll mentor you and give you the blueprint and help you blow up your business this year. DM me, if that's you. I just said, message him. And I was like, dude, I'd be interested. And he messages back. He had gone through some of my content and gone through stuff. He's like, I think it might be a Good fit. He asked me some questions about what I wanted to do to make sure that he could help me. And then he drops this price on me. That made me a little sick, Chris. He says, hey, it'll be a year and I'll work with you. You'll come out multiple times. You'll be working with my team. My team will help you implement this whole strategy. We'll do it together. It's $100,000. And I was like, man, dude, that's like a condo where I live, you know? That's a lot of money, man.

It's a lot of money, period.

It's a lot. And he ended up over delivering. Like it went even a longer than a year. I got at least a million dollars off of that a hundred thousand dollars investment. And it also sped it compressed time because it would have taken me four years, five years to figure this shit out on my own. And I would literally solve problems that were six months time in like a weekend with him. So I was like, you know what? Yeah, I'll do it. But I got. I always found this out with people. It's another hack I learned along the way. Whenever somebody quotes you a price for something, instead of trying to haggle with them to reduce the price, just try to get them to add more things to it. Because by haggling with them, it's almost like undervaluing what they said. Like, if I said to Billy, hey, could you do it for 50? He might have just said, fuck off. You know, like, he may not have wanted to do it, but. So what I did was I said, okay, I'll do it, but I need you to speak at this event for me, my event coming up. I didn't even have an event, but I was like, I will have one. So will you speak at the event? Cause he has a 20k speaking fee. So I'm like, I'd throw that in there. Plus, would you do, at some point, do a podcast with me? And, you know, I just kind of threw in a few things extra. And I said, if that works for you, I'll do it right now. I'll send the money, I'll wire it tomorrow. And he's like, done. I was like, okay. So we worked out the deal. The next day, I'm supposed to wire the money, Chris. I type it all up in bank of America, and I. I can't have a problem hitting enter. You know, it's like, dude, it's like, what if he screws me? Like, what if? But the reason why I actually Hit enter and sent. The money was. I had been following him for over a year. He's taken down all this content, but he would literally do YouTube videos at the time. This is how he blew up his brand. He would dissect your content and your ads on YouTube for like 40 minute videos. They would publish two or three of these a week. I would watch these at night after I put the kids to bed. I would watch these for like, two, three hours every night for like months. And I was learning so much from him. And so at that point, like, I just felt like, dude, the guy knows what he's doing. I trust him because I'd seen him, seen so much of his content. And I just hit send and then I went out to a studio. I think two weeks later, we did, like, our first session together. During that first session, he helped me launch my first product for Forward, which was called Neil's Content Day. We built the funnel, launched it, put it out there in one day. I knew nothing about funnels, email marketing, how to sell things on social media. I did it in one day. Chris with him and his team. So we would sit at a roundtable with Billy and he had all of his team, five people there. So we're like brainstorming. Somebody's literally over here building the funnel. Somebody's over here getting the copy ready for the email sequence that comes after somebody comes in. Somebody's giving me a Google sheet with, like, what to say to the people on the phone calls to get them to book with us. And we did the whole thing in one day. And that was just the first session I had. So literally in the first session, I was like on my way to recovering my investment and I was like, oh, shit, I made the right decision.

I have to ask you this question because I think I met your wife when you came out to our studio in Santa Monica. Now Whitney's kind of there, always by your side in the background somewhere. How does she feel about you throwing money at things like this? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Is she a ride or die or does she like, hey, honey, can you, like, slow down on some of this? What's your thoughts on this?

So I'm a little crazy, like, as we talked about earlier, where I'll find a way to make it work, you know what I mean? So we've never gone without. We've had times where we weren't as comfortable, for sure, but I've never not come through in terms of being the provider. She's never had to worry about that. So I think that because of that she gave me a little bit more rope. You know, like, luckily I didn't hang myself, but like, she gave me more leeway and she wouldn't really question what I'm doing. As long as everything's taken care of, we're comfortable. You can swing for the fence is the kind of attitude we have. Luckily, you know, I never had a huge financial loss other than 2008. And at that time we had just gotten married, so it wasn't like we were already starting from scratch. So it wasn't like she came in and I was rich then I lost everything that wasn't the way, like, we started from dirt. So we were together when, you know, we were pinching pennies to go to Olive Garden. So it wasn't a big deal. You know, I think she's. It's kind of like she comes from meager upbringing and we didn't have money to start, so it's kind of like, oh, well, like, worst case, we go live in an apartment. I'm cool with that too. Like, she's not like worried about living on in some million dollar house or anything like that.

So she's super scrappy. And because you guys had that baseline, it's like, we kind of know what this looks like, so we can play a little bit and see where this takes us.

Yeah. And I think for anybody whose spouse doubts them or is giving them critical feedback for what they're doing with money and things, especially when it comes to business and risk taking, it's because maybe you haven't been a person of your word. You know, like, maybe you're the guy who always says you're going to do something and then you don't do it. And so I think you can quickly flip that around and get them to fully support you if you just start following through on the things you said you were going to do. And it could be as simple as, like, yeah, I said I was going to show up at home more. I said I was, you know, hey, you know what? Like, you've been kind of letting me down around the house. You said you would help me with this and you didn't do it. Just those little things, they all reduce your credit score with your wife. You know, I think we have a credit score with our spouse. I got a really high credit score, Chris, you know, know, but like, that's because I do what I say I'm going to do. And I've had times where that credit score has dropped and it's got me in trouble, and she's checked me on it. She's like, you know what, dude? You. You bullshitted me on this. You didn't say. You said you were going to do this. You said you were going to do this and you didn't do it. I'm pissed. And I was like, you know what? I guess you're right, man. I did. I have been dropping the ball.

Can you give us an example? One of those moments when you dropped the ball and you had to reconcile the balance there?

Yeah. Like, I think a lot of us in the entrepreneur space have all gone through this. Some people won't ever tell you, but I'm happy to share because I think it helps people. I had a period where I just took my eye off my marriage just because I was so excited about what I was doing in business. And so you don't really notice, but it's like death by a thousand cuts. It's the little things that just start stacking up. It's like, hey, you know what? Remember when you used to be really pumped to, like, plan a weekend to take your wife somewhere or go to this concert or do stuff? You start doing that less because now you're getting your kicks from this business and the new Facebook ad you're running and the new content and, wow, dude, that video just blew up on YouTube. Like, that was where I was getting all the rush from. And then it stopped being about me and my wife. So then, if I'm being honest, I was just taking my eye off of that. It wasn't like I was being a bad dad or husband, and I was still providing. And then you can quickly get into this negative mindset, which I did for a moment, which is, hey, I'm a really good provider. We're living comfortably. My wife drives a Range Rover. We're good. Like, you shouldn't be complaining that, you know, I didn't do enough date nights or, like, I wasn't fully attentive at dinner time. Like, I'm providing all the money. And so what I found out, which is a hard truth, I think a lot of us have to. Being a provider is only one slice of the pie. Coming from immigrant background, Chris, my dad, it's like in India, it's the whole pie. You just provide and then nobody bothers you. Like, you could do. I remember, like, we didn't talk to dad. He's just doing his work, bro.

Leave dad alone. He's doing important stuff right now.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, dad wasn't Throwing the football with me outside, bro. Like, my dad was working on his thesis. He has a PhD and he was working 90% of the time at home. Once in a while, I talked to my dad, and it wasn't like, I hate my dad. Like, we're fine. It's just the way I was brought up. So we all have different upbringings, especially immigrants. I think you relate to that. So I thought if you're a good provider, you have a green light to do whatever you want and your family support you. But what happened was it's just a slow erosion of, like, that. And, you know, hey, I'll be there at 7, show up at 8:30, and never called. And just when I get home, hey, you know, we got caught up on this video, me and the guys, you know, we were just tied up. And she's like, all right, you know, I get it. Do that like 20 times, you know, see where you're at. And, hey, I can't show up here and there. So I don't. I think I was like, just thinking, like, hey, she's just yelling at me because. Just nagging. But really, it was like, a lot of it was my fault. So I just look at myself and said, hey, dude, get your shit together, man. Like, if you want to reconcile this. And so if I would have kept doing that, bro, I think we wouldn't be married today, you know. But I quickly got corrected. I remember calling you one time and was like, man, dude, I think my.

Wife'S gonna leave me.

And, you know, it was like a really dark moment. And you were like, dude, honestly, man, you are on the road a lot. You are doing a lot of things. It was like a hard. I had to like, hey, dude, stop trying to blame other people and just look at your own behavior. It doesn't mean that the other person not to blame too. Like, they could be nagging you a little bit, too. But it's part. It starts with you, like, what could you do to fix yourself? And so I just corrected that and realized, like, hey, once everything's dialed in at home, it actually made me better in business because now I don't have this, like, worry in my mind what's going on. You know, my wife's mad at me, what's happening at home, and, you know, or she's nagging me, like, and then I also. What I found was she actually gives me more room to do what I need to do as long as I'm checking those boxes.

Well, I can say as evidence, in the last time That I saw you, which was just a couple of months ago, that the relationship seemed really strong. And I've seen you in a couple of different ways where it was like, is there. Are they connecting? Are they on the same wavelength? And it's. I think this. And I said to an audience once that the most underrated thing is to have a really good partner that cares about you, that wants to see you win and support you, because with that, you could do anything. There's nothing that you can't do. And if you're distracted, like, oh, my gosh, is my home life going to be okay? Am I going to be sleeping on the couch tonight? It can mess you up, too. So you have to take care of both the business and the home life. Otherwise the two are in competition. It's not a good place to be.

Yeah, think about it right now. Like, we've all been there. When you're going through, like, arguments and strife at home, how great are you on your videos and your calls with customers and as a leader at work, like, you're handicapped, bro. Like, you're probably at 50% or worse of what you could. Your potential could be. And so I always tell people the same. It's like, solve that first and stop blaming the other parties. Like, look at what you could do better and then watch what happens. They'll come around, too. So all the things that I was mad at her for the most part, were fixed by me just doing what I need to do. And it probably doesn't work for everybody, but that's what worked for me. And we also went to therapy and all that stuff, too.

Yeah, I think that helps you to have a professional guiding you along the way.

Yeah, for sure. But I noticed nobody talks about this, Chris. They're just, like, pretend, you know, I see some people, they're like, in pictures with their spouse. Two, three years later, they're divorced. We had a conversation backstage at my last event, and Gary Vee was there. And Gary Vee always talks about empathy and love and kindness. And then you're like, hey, you should ask him about work life balance, because the dude just got divorced, you know, last couple years ago. Like, what happened? You know? And so I remember asking him. He gives you the same blanket answer. And nothing against Gary. He just probably doesn't want to. He doesn't want to go there. That's fine. But, like, I think it's something that more entrepreneurs should talk about.

Yeah, I agree. Because we get to see the limelight and the. The. The cars or the success And. And everything that comes with that. But then we don't understand that it comes at a cost. And it's. It's very difficult to manage both things. I mean, some of the most famous rich people are now divorced, and maybe they just grew apart, and that's okay. Jeff Bezos got divorced. Bill Gates got divorced. Steve Jobs got divorced.

I think.

I mean, they go through a lot of different things because they pursue the business. And it's kind of not that easy if no one's telling you this is the price you're going to pay if you continue down this path.

Yeah. Like, how many times has Elon Musk been married? I don't even know at this point.

A gazillion times.

Yeah. But, you know, he probably is the same way. He's obsessed with business. That comes first, and then the marriage suffers. So if it's, like, mutual and you guys, it just didn't work, I get it. That happens, too. I'm not saying, like, it's the end of the world, but if it's something that you wanted to actually have, both success in business plus a happy marriage, it can be done. And more people should talk about the ways to do that. And I think the main takeaway for me is, hey, what's it like to be on the other side of whatever it is you're doing? So let's just say, like, what's it like to be in an interview with you? Is it good? Is it bad? Like, put yourself in the other person. What's it like to be your wife? What's it like for that person? And really, really be honest. Like, what's it like? What's it like to be your employee on your team, put yourself in that person's shoes for a day and see, like, you're like, man, you know what? If I was that person, I would be kind of pissed at that. You know, that would have probably made me feel like shit. And then you can make adjustments based on that.

Well, I appreciate you talking about this, and I think there's another half to the story that we're going to do on a different episode with the person in that we're talking about.

Hopefully I don't get rolled on that episode, but we'll see.

We'll kind of cross cut the two episodes and see, like, the differences between how one person perceives versus the other. But I really do appreciate you doing that, and I hope this encourages more entrepreneurs to speak up, to talk about their struggles or challenges openly and so that we can have better templates. For how to guide how we want to live our life with our partners. And I think that's really important. Okay, let's get back to the whole brand building thing and the Neil show here. So we see this consistent pattern with you. Your willingness to spend money to extract whatever positive you can to apply it immediately to get your very high roi.

It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

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And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Let's move over into your personal brand and I just would like for you to take a look back because you've not been doing it for that long, to be honest. It's been about 6ish years that you've been doing this. And you're in an industry that I think there isn't a lot of innovation, maybe by regulation or the way people perceive themselves. It could be a limiting belief, but here you are looking the way you look, saying the things you say and doing things that are pretty atypical for people in your industry. First of all, I'm just going to ask you this question. How do you think other people in your industry perceive you?

I would say they probably think at this point I'm innovative, maybe little edgy, speaks his mind, you know, does things out of the box. So that's probably where people would see me now. It wasn't always like that. But now as I've kind of found my lane, okay, I would add to.

That relentless, honest and sincere, no B.S. kind of guy. If something's happening, you're just going to say, and I've heard you drop some f bombs on stage and talk about like an uncomfortable thing. I think that's a clue for people. If you want to really build a strong personal brand, just let go of the pretense. Just show up as you are. You'll turn off a few people, but you'll gain a lot more in the process. Now, along your journey, talk to me about the decisions that you made that started to shape the old Neo into the current.

Neil, most people don't know this about me, but I grew up kind of like skateboard culture. And then I got into some trouble with the kids who were skating. So then my parents took my skateboard away. And then what I replaced that with, Chris, was music. So I started playing drums. I was in a metal band, if you can imagine that. Then I got into alternative rock bands. And so I spent probably from like 15 to 21 in that culture in band. So then at some point, right after college, I was working in a bank to pay the bills. My brother's in this industry, a mortgage industry, and making a lot of money. This is right before the 2008 crash. He's like, hey, Neil, you gotta get in here. Just, there's a lot of money in this business. You need to do this. Got into that and then kind of left all the creativity behind. And you and I have talked about this before, but, like, the business kind of beats the creativity out of you. And then you just kind of do the things that work, the tried and true things, and over time, you lose all creativity. Like, you just kind of. It goes away. And so for a decade of being conditioned in the industry, all my crayons, all my drumsticks, all my guitar, it kind of just. The guitar's in the corner, it's got dust on it. The drum set I replaced with the electric drum set so that I could play in the house. Then the electric jump set we sold because it was a clothes rack. I'm making money now, bro. You don't need to be doing all this other shit. But so I lost all that stuff. Then what happened was, as I started to get into content, I started to get the creativity back. And then as I got more confident with it, I really, like, that's where I think I was getting so much fulfillment from, was, like, creating good stuff, finding out why it works, and then trying to do more of that thing. You know, how do we hack attention? How do we get more people to sign up? What are the things we could put in our videos or subject lines or whatever it is to get people to take action? All these kinds of things I fell into so along the way, I just Started to be. I think you build a tolerance for just being more real. And so in the beginning you might censor yourself, but then eventually you just said, you know what? I'm just going to be me. And something clicks and then you're like, okay, now the content's actually working better. Because I'm not worried about offending someone or what they're going to think. If they unfollow me, I'm cool with it. If they whatever, I'll just do it. I'll just be me. And so from there is, I think, when it really started working for me. But that was like two years into creating videos, and then it becomes a process from there. Same thing with speaking. I was super stiff. My mouth would go dry. I was really worried about. I would really rely on the slides and just be robotic. But then along the way, I could just. I just said, forget it, man. I'm just going to be myself. And then the speaking got better as well. And so I got more comfortable with that. So I think it's just reps, and then you get to be yourself. And then along the way, I stopped caring about, like, how I needed to show up. So if you look at my older content, you said, Neil's Poindexter's got the hair parted. And I would wear the bankers shirts. And I never liked wearing those clothes, but it was just what we had to do at work. I said, you know what I'm going to do, Chris? I'm going to switch out the collared shirt for a polo shirt because I'm more comfortable and I hate wearing these ties and suits and shit. So I stopped wearing the suits and tie and then I started using polo shirts and I went to the meetings and people were still cool with it and it was fine. Then I switched the polo shirts for T shirt because I always wanted to just wear a T shirt and because I had a little bit of brand and people had seen my stuff, they were cool, they didn't treat me any worse. In fact, the meetings went even better then. I always wanted to wear a hat, you know, And I never could wear my hat because I wear my hat backwards. If you look at pictures of me when I was like 20 something years old, I would always have a backwards cap on, but I never could wear it to work. Then I said, fuck it, I'm just going to wear the hat to the meeting, see what happens. Nothing bad happened. It was fine. So literally from that point on, you give me shit about this. I wear a black T shirt. I found the jeans I love. There's these G Star jeans I love. I have 20 pairs of these G Star jeans. I've got 30 black T shirts, different variations of black T shirts. And I got my black cap. I wear the same thing every day and it became my brand. So for probably two and a half years, I've literally worn what I'm wearing right now every single day.

Okay, that explains a lot. So there was this whole creative person, this rebel, this punk rock person in you that I think business life just crushed and destroyed for about 10 years and then you went on this journey. It's like, you know what, I'm going to just try this thing. And you did it the right way, I think, which is to do it in phases, like, let me try this and let's see if I get away with that and nothing bad happens. And in fact you're like, oh, we like this. A little bit more relaxed look. And I have to say, which person would you like to work with? The stiff guy who's trying to like fit in. But we can tell, we can tell he didn't really want to be there. And that's the thing.

I would be in those suits at the networking event like, and I would be dread. I wouldn't want to talk to anybody. And it was just like, you know, you're just not comfortable because you're not being you.

Yeah. And I think that's kind of really interesting. There's this scene from the Ultimate Fighter. It was Conor McGregor versus Uriah Faber and Connor's the king of trash talking. And they're about to like walk into the arena and he's just giving him like, he's talking trash to Uriah. He says to Uriah, you know, you're just like a 30 year old skateboarder. That was how he's insulting because he was wearing flip flops, a loose shirt and shorts. And he goes, well, you know, you and your alligator skin or snakeskin shoes and blah blah, blah. So they were just two worlds apart. One was dressed in a super tailored suit and the other one looked like a Californian kid. And he goes, you know, I work hard in all my life, so I get to wear this suit. Because from where Connor was growing up, you work in the field or you're doing high labor work and you don't get to wear a suit like this. And then what was really interesting to me was Uriah says back to him, I worked all my life so I don't have to wear a suit. And both are true and both are really interesting. Right. And there's nothing wrong with wearing a suit or a T shirt, but it's like when it's mismatched with who you are, we can feel it and we can see it. Yeah.

I'll give you example. Like, my brother, he's like, always loves suits. Nice suits. He gets tailored suits. He's like Ryan Sirhant, you know, wear a suit and he likes it. And that's him. So that's cool. Like, if that's you, bro, like, do you. But for me, it was never me. I was always, you know, kind of the rebel. And I think you can find your own, like, style. I know this leads to a lot of branding in the future, but, like, I would have glasses, for example. Like, you might think, well, Neil, just how much style could you incorporate? You got a black T shirt and jeans. Well, the black T shirts, you can get nice. You can. You can wear nice T shirts or you can wear sloppy T shirts. There's nice T shirts. I've spent a hundred bucks on a T shirt before. You know, there's some nice quality fabric and it looks clean. Glasses, you know, I used to have shitty glasses. Now I get the Warby Parker. I found the ones I like and it's party style. Little things like you don't wear a Rolex and, you know, like, I don't know, there's certain accessories you could add that become part of your whole thing. And you can. You can have like a really polished look. It doesn't have. I don't mean you have to be sloppy. Like, you can still be polished, but then be yourself and then you can. You can clean it up from there.

Yeah. Well, now that you're doing your thing and you got your following and you're creating content on a regular basis, other people are following suit. Now you're giving people permission, which is really cool, to kind of explore their personal style, to show up on social media. What kind of impact have you seen in your industry by the things you've done and how you've fled?

So first impact was like there was about a couple hundred people wearing their. Wearing a backwards cap. And all the videos, I was like, oh, that's cool. But honestly, it just. The better impact has been people, if they want to be casual, if they want to be whatever they're going to be, they started giving them the permission to just do it and be okay with it and not feel judged. And so a lot of people have kind of broken out of their shell and they've gone on the Same path to putting out content. And so they're teaching the same kind of topics, but they're doing it in their own way, and they're doing it in their own style. And then that's when it actually works, rather than being all stiff and just trying to be like everybody else.

Is there anybody from the Ford Mastermind, someone who's gone through Neil's Content day, that you think perfectly exemplifies the ideas, the things that you're teaching? Anybody you want to mention in particular?

There's been multiple people I look at, like, success stories over the years. So many people like. And I think, you know, one of these guys, Sean Kaplan, if you look at his old videos, he's all suited up and stuff, and he has his own style. He's kind of gone through different iterations, but now he's kind of found his own thing. He lives out in Tennessee, and he's. He's being himself now. And so that's cool to see him just kind of, like, fall into that thing. And so many other people just like this, both on males, females, doesn't matter. Like, there's so many people who have just gotten cracked out of the shell. We had this gal who came to our event for the first time, I think, two years ago, Lindy, and she was super, like, nervous and didn't know she could build a brand. And she's only two years into this, and she's being herself and talking, you know, how she would normally talk, and doing a style in her own way, and it's led to her business, like, doing. She's in our industry right now. It's a down year, and she's having her best year ever because she's standing out in the marketplace. So it's really cool to see people, like, kind of embrace the strategy because it's not just for, like, making yourself feel good. It actually translates to business results.

Absolutely. Well, one of the benefits of building a personal brand I kind of look at like this. If you take all of the things that you do, the service or products that you provide to people, and the things you have to do to acquire a customer, lifetime customer value, and all that kind of stuff. And if you put the personal brand next to it, it becomes a multiplier, and it expands everything that you do. So instead of chasing leads, leads come to you. So you get to choose. Instead of chase. And the opportunities for public speaking or the kind of network that you can build, it all gets amplified because of the strength of your personal brand. So I'm curious How do you define personal brand and what is your personal brand?

So I would say there's so many definitions, but the one I really like, Chris, is like, my personal brand is what people say about me when I'm not in the room. What would they say about you, like, or would they say anything? You know, some people don't have a personal brand at all. So they'd be like, if your name came up, nothing happened. There's no association, there's no style, there's no nothing there. Versus, like, the more things they know about you and can associate you with those feelings or things that becomes your brand. And so when you said, you described me as all these things, those are the words, the descriptive words that people say about me if I'm not there and they're having conversations about you and you're getting brought up, and then those things create opportunities for you. So whether it's more referrals for clients, whether it's more speaking opportunities, all these cool things, like, there's so many opportunities I've gotten in the last two, three years that I never thought were. They weren't even on the roadmap. They weren't. Like, it wasn't on the. It wasn't in the game plan. A lot of times people will ask, hey, what's your game plan for the next five years? I have no idea. Like, I don't know. I'm just trying to do what I'm doing right now, do the best I can. And then all of a sudden, good things happen as a result of that. So I have this. I don't know who said it originally, but I have this thing where this saying, I follow it says, if you take care of the work, the work will take care of you. So I just try and do the best job I can, put out as much content as we can, do the best event that we can. If we're doing a webinar, it's going to be the best webinar I can do. And by doing that every day, every week, 52 weeks a year, all of a sudden some other door opens next year that I didn't even think was possible or something happens there. So it kind of like that becomes part of your brand.

Well, the brand that you have right now, this person who's known, I think, because you've done a really good job of telling your story, so people do have an opinion about you and. And it feels pretty aligned. Do you see it evolving in a different way three, four, five years from now, where Neil continues to change or is Neil like the black T shirt backwards, cap and G star pants kind of guy who shows up and pushes you to do the best work you can do?

I don't know, man. It's interesting. I've never thought about it, but I'm sure it'll evolve a little bit. Like, even your stuff, Chris, I look like you've kind of had newer things come out in the last three years, two years. You've kind of added things to your style, and so I think at some point there'll be more things. But it's in the manner that we talked about before. Like, kind of one thing at a time. I think there was a period of time where you were doing certain things in a certain style, but you didn't wear a cap in every video. I think somebody then told you that your head was too reflective or something. And then all of a sudden, you had to put a cap on in every video. But then they became part of your brand now. So, like, I'm sure there's something like that that will happen for me along the way, too.

Yeah. You know, I was in Amsterdam, and I was at this office, and I was doing a little fireside chat as. As part of a bigger event. And I was just sitting there in the back, just chilling for a little bit. I had my hat off, and then it was time for us to do our chat. I put my hat back on. I go up on stage, and they asked me, like, hey, how can you take off your hat? What's going on? I said, well, it's not the most comfortable thing for me to wear, but I will show you what it looks like with and without the cap. And it's kind of like the same reaction that people get. Like, if you take your glasses off, they don't recognize you anymore. And then you put your glasses back on. It's like Clark Kent, Superman. Clark Kent, Superman. So I had actually pulled them, and I said, do you prefer the cap on or off? You know, no cap on. Like, we can't figure it out. So now it's like it's become attached to your identity. One of the things I try to encourage people is really think about the silhouette. Like, if we are all stripped naked, we're all pretty much the same, different shapes and sizes, but we're all pretty much the same. But when you wear the cap or glasses, it changes the silhouette and it becomes part of your identity. You know, I don't know if you do this, where do you ever talk to your kids and you take off the glasses, and they have a weird reaction like, who's that? It's the same thing, and so it becomes part of it. So we want to be pretty intentional, because the more you show up as certain thing, you kind of get stuck a little bit.

Yeah. So you better be comfortable in it. It's gotta be you, because that's. It becomes associated with you. So I think that the more consistency you have there, imagine, like, you went to Starbucks, and every Starbucks you went to had a different color logo and a different thing. It'd be like, dude, I'm sure the name would have its own brand association, but the actual colors and feelings need to be similar. Like, it would be weird. So I think of the same way with the way we show up. And so I introduce new things all the time. Like, for example, I always loved wearing the black cap, but we have red in our logos and a lot of the stuff for forward. So then I just do a little thing where we put the little red thing on the cap and kind of, like, make a little. Like, just introduce little things like that versus me changing out my whole shirt to red all of a sudden and wearing a red shirt every day. It'd be kind of like a pattern interrupt.

Yeah, I love that. And before we get out of here, I want to talk a little bit more about the forward community, the events that you're able to run. And you mentioned before, like, the first event was, like, 70 people in a dark room, and it was a little dingy, and maybe it wasn't perfect. Talk to me about the lessons you've learned in building this thing so that a thousand people show up, fly to Las Vegas in the middle of summer, I have to say, and are excited to be here. Now, I want to give you a lot of credit, because the kinds of people that I meet at your event, they're very different than the kinds of people that I meet at events that I go to. First of all, they're a little loud. They're very warm and friendly, and they're very effusive in their praise and just their generosity and appreciation for things. When I go to some events with designers, it's like, I think that person knows me or wants to talk to me, but they don't say anything. But at your event, people are like Christo from across the escalator. I'm like, oh, hey. And they come up to you and they give you this big hug. I'm like, whoa. Okay. Personal space. But it's all good. But it's really genuine. I'm like, dang, these left brainers, they're just, there's a lot of heart in here. Or so I think. And so I think somebody told me the fish rots from the head. So if things are going well, it's from the head, and if things are going poorly, it's from the head. So I think there's something about you, your ethos and what you put out in the community that you have assembled. Talk to me a little bit about any insights that you've learned along the way.

Yeah, this has been kind of a work in progress, but when I first started it was about, hey, how do I get people to come to this event? What I wanted to do was put together a really valuable event in terms of like, hey, I'm going to help the people with what they need the most. So who could I assemble to give them the most value? I learned this from kind of Gary Vee stuff, you know, provide the most value so that you can win. And I didn't know what my product or my offering was going to be. I just knew I had to put on a good event. So my first events were like classes for real estate people in my market before anything I started doing with Forward. And these were just small classes locally where I'd provide value, help them with marketing ideas so that they could get more clients. And then as a result, I would get business from them, referrals from them. So I would ask for referrals and they would be like, oh yeah, you helped me, I'll help you. And it would work out. It was kind of reciprocation. Then what I decided to do is like, hey, why don't we do something a little bit bigger? This was during COVID which was another problem because you couldn't do live events. So 2020, I was like, I'm going to start my first Forward event. How I came up with the name was I just literally started searching domains and found a domain that was available and then that was what I named the event. And then I asked my Fiverr Graphics dude, hey, could you just throw together a logo for me so we could get this thing published? And we did it. And then the website's ugly, the logos are ugly. But what I found for me is like, I've always had this obsession with like getting things to work and just getting them out to the market and getting customers for them before everything's perfect. I did so much business, Chris, with a terrible looking website and logos and things like that. And I know other people who will spend their Entire part of that process, tweaking the names and doing a focus group test to see which logo they like and the colors and the design. And I get that, but like, I just went with it. So I put it out kind of ugly, started it off. And then what I found is really shocking because you can put together the best event, you can put together the best people, and you think that they will come. You build it, they will come. Nobody comes. Like, it's really strange. Even with well known influencers. It was like, man, I put all this work together, I put it out on instagram and like 13 people bought and 4 of the 13 are relatives. Okay? So it's like, man, I've got some work to do here. So we did a small event in 2021 in one of my friends. He had a training facility so we could do it in his basement because you couldn't do events during COVID and casinos and stuff like that. So we did a small basement and it was only 75 seats. And the way I filled this event was just DMing people and calling people one to one. So I said, hey, Chris, I'm doing a really dope event. We've got Billie Jean and Tom Ferry and all these great people there. They're going to teach you marketing and it's going to be awesome. I think you should be there. Let me know if you're interested and I'll hold you a spot. And then I would try and close them on buying a ticket. And I did this. I sent out probably thousand messages to get those 75 people there. But these were all my followers on Instagram, so there was no cold ads. It wasn't any cold audience. It was all people who had been following me on Instagram. So then the next year we did it. We leaped up to like 600 people. And then the next year we did 750 and then we got to a thousand. And I like that sweet spot because bigger than that you have to get a much bigger venue. And it becomes kind of like an arena type vibe. Versus right now we've got kind of a close knit vibe. But the reason why, when you see all these people at the event who are so warm and friendly and all this, they're all my friends. Like it's all my people from Instagram. So I haven't yet gotten into running cold ads to fill things. It's all been just my followers and friends of those followers. So it becomes this kind of close knit community. And what I found was like, community building is so underrated. But it can be huge for your business because these are the people. These are your people. And so if you really put out stuff and let them know who you are and what you're doing, they'll rally behind you and they'll tell their friends to come and they'll start selling tickets for you. And it's really cool. Even in a tough environment like this year, where most events I speak at, Chris, are, like, very poorly attended, poorly marketed, it's becoming more and more difficult to get people to do things. We were able to sell our event out. It wasn't easy, but we're able to sell it out because of community.

Okay, well, I admire you, and I understand why people describe you as relentless, because I can't even imagine trying to send a DM to everybody that follows me. And the fact that that's what you had to do, or you had to literally call people and say, hey, I'm putting together this really cool event. Love to see you there. I guess that goes back to your early days in the mortgage space, right? Where that's how you. You did it. Cold outreach. But this is, like warm outreach, but.

Still, it's like, lukewarm because you'll, you know, people are your friend until you ask them for to jump on a plane and spend money. Then you find out who your friends are, right? Here's the thing. There's a hack. All of us can do is set a date for what you're going to do. I don't care if it's a free webinar, mini meetup, a class, whatever it is, publicly set the date and post it. You're now committed. Because in order for you to back out on that, you'd have to, like, almost be humiliated a little bit. You have to say, like, oh, you know what? I failed. We're not doing it anymore. Due to unforeseen circumstances, it's been canceled. I didn't want to do that shit. So once I had put it out there, I've already paid the speakers because I've already published that I'm doing this now. I've got some pressure on my shoulders, you know, like, you have to come through at that point. So, like, a lot of people, like, well, dude, what's the hack to getting some big things done? Just have a deadline that cannot be missed, have a target that you cannot fail, and then watch what you're capable of. You'll send the DMs, man, when your ass is on the line, like, you'll make the calls. You know, I think a lot of us are hesitant to put ourselves in that situation to begin with because you don't want the pressure of that situation. But I've found that the pressure is actually a privilege. Like, that's what actually gets it done.

Contrary to popular belief, creativity loves a deadline because creativity will expand or contract relative to a deadline. So if you give somebody three years to do something, they'll take three years. If you give somebody three hours, it'll take three hours. So this idea of committing to a date and then see what you're capable of is tying into this other idea of like the social contract. We will let ourselves down, but we're less likely to let the other people who we care about down. And so when you say, I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to lose this weight, I'm going to climb this mountain, I'm going to put on this event, a workshop, whatever it is, and you commit to it. All of a sudden, the shame and the guilt that you'll feel for not fulfilling your end of the bargain. Having to like, tail tuck between legs, like unforeseen circumstances, death in the family. You have to make up some crap to be able to get out of this. But you know, deep inside that shame that you'll feel will get you past that sticking point and you'll, you'll do the work that is necessary.

Yeah, it's like, man, you just, just raise the stakes, you know? And so I like this thing. Some people might say I'm a little weird or sick with it, but now these are like bets, you know. So you talked about earlier how you're able to make these, take these risks in business and see the return. I kind of equate it, Chris, to like high stakes gambling. It kind of gives me a little bit of a rush of like, hey, man, we got to come through, man. We just did it at a higher level now. We spent 700k on the last event. The first event cost me 70k. The last event cost me 10 times that. You can't fail. Like, I'm not going to my wife to tell her, hey, honey, I lost, you know, half a million dollars on this dumb idea. No, that's not happening. Like, we'll figure out a way and then you get really creative, like with. Because there's a, like a deadline coming up that can't be missed. So I love that strategy. It does make you kind of cram things into a short period of time. But that's the hack for me to get shit done. And it also gets your whole team rallied around you. The best marketing I've seen is your own customers helping you fulfill, you know, like a satisfied customer telling all their friends and buddies to do something is the best marketing you could ever have. I'll give you a quick example. We have this Mastermind. It's a high ticket offer that we offer to people at our event and it's an amazing community and people have great results. And I tell them from the stage about all these things. And you guys, some people even make fun of me because, like, Neil talks too much about the Mastermind because I love it. It's just amazing. And I want people to know about all these things. But by me telling more about it, it almost makes it sometimes, like feel like salesy. And so it was weird. I was sitting at the booth where the Mastermind at the last event and there was a few spots left and the team at the sales team was like, neil, next break at the event or on stage, could you please remind people that there's only this many spots left so that we could finish this up for you and fill this up. I was like, dude, you know what? I don't want to, I don't want to say it again like, because, oh, there's only this much spots left. Time's running out. I just feel like a freaking infomercial at this point. So let me try something else. So this gal comes up who's already in the Mastermind. Her name's Anna. I think you met her recently or she asked you to beat her.

Oh, yes, Anna, of course, Anna Kara.

She's in Glendale. So I said, anna, she was one of my people who rallied and helped me. She brought friends with her to the event and she had a friend named Errol. And I met Errol earlier in the day. And I was like, you know what? I said, anna, why isn't Errol in the Mastermind? Because Anna's already in the Mastermind. She goes, you know what? He should be. I said, would you mind just go talk to him and tell him to join. Like, go bring, like, tell him how great it is because I think he would love it. He's going to get such a great result. She goes, yeah, I got you, Neil, no problem. She leaves the table, Chris. Fifteen minutes later, she walks Errol back over to the table and he signs up and buys the product. Next guy comes over, Mace, I think you've met Mace. You would recognize him. Tall guy with glasses. I said, mace comes up to me and said, neil, bro, I'm with you for life. These events have changed my life. Your community's changed my life. I just want to thank you so much. Is there anything that I could ever do for you to repay you? I said no, bro. Your success is payment enough. Dude, just keep crushing it. One favor I would ask. Do you know anybody who would love to be in this group who, you know would benefit from it? He's like, you know what? I got you. Stay here. He walks back. Chris, with another person signs up immediately. So, bro, I don't need to be selling from the stage so hard. Just tell the customer, like, our existing satisfied members, hey, who do you know that would benefit from this group? And maybe there's some incentivizing there, that affiliate thing that could be done in the future. I don't know. I didn't work out all the details yet, but all I know is, like, the power of an uninterested party. Not a salesperson telling you their personal experience about working with someone that's the best marketing in the world. There's no freaking ad that I could ever run that would compete with that marketing.

There's something that really surprised me about your community, and the first time we did an event together, it was for your mastermind. It was in San Diego. And you told me, hey, just talk about personal branding. And I told this story on stage where I felt, like, really weird and awkward because I was thinking, I don't know if Neil knows what I do, but this seems like a misalignment. But what really shocked me was as I was going through my presentation, talking about my thoughts on personal branding and what they can do to build something that's really meaningful, that is connected to who they really were. I almost felt like the audience was, like, just taking it in. Like, I was seeing in my mind, like, I could see their reaction and how they were leaning into conversation. What is it about this group of people that is so hungry for this kind of creative spark that seems like it seems like, not typical for them to want, but they have a voracious appetite for it?

Yeah, I think it's because I haven't marketed to the whole industry. I've been just putting out my own content, sharing what I'm doing, personally, sharing the journey. So I call this building in public. A lot of the people who've been following my stuff have been following since Poindexter days, so they've kind of seen some of the stuff. Maybe they came in recently and they love it. But a lot of people have been around, and so What I found was within this huge pool, I'm finding my people, which are maybe the creative types, maybe the people who lost their crayons or their drumsticks along the way. Maybe they have something in them, but they don't know. Maybe it's just a feeling of like, you know what? I was meant to do something more than what I'm doing. Kind of bored with what I'm doing. I make good money, but like, I don't really feel anything anymore. I'm kind of burned. I'm just like, numb. Maybe I'll check out what Neil's doing. Sounds like that looks cool. So, like, those are the people I attract. And then these people are, like you said, they're like a sponge. They really want to take it in and then they want to implement. Some people are better implementers than others, of course, but what I found was like, they're just really hungry to do something different. They're tired of being in the box that this industry puts them in. And so that's my niche. I just accidentally discovered it by just being myself. And I think it wouldn't have necessarily worked the same if I run a bunch of ads and got random people at the event. But because it was my community, it really worked. And so I think it's not the whole industry. I don't paint with the broad brush, but there's people probably within every industry in business and in corporate world that are these kinds of people. And what are these people gonna do? Man, they gotta get an outlet. They gotta figure out something. And so this is kind of that outlet for them.

These are, in my mind, business oriented people who have this child inside, this creative misfit that you give them permission to like, hey, celebrate with us. I'm one of you. I see you and you see me and they come out and you know, I look forward to, to coming out and hanging out with your people. Whether I'm on stage or not doesn't really matter because I just like seeing them. There's a warmth and energy that I really like. And the fact that they're all taking positive steps to shape their future, to figure out what's next for them to move forward. I think that's really cool. Okay, one last question. I was going to do a not serious question, but I want to do a serious question with you. People underestimate how hard it is to put an event together. First of all, you mentioned something like it's a $700,000 gamble. You're putting it on a red chip and you Hope it lands on red, because otherwise you are F. And so you've gone through your roster of people who speak, and if somebody's listening to this who thinks, I'm totally in line with Neil's message, I want to teach people about marketing or design or whatever it is. Well, we know that there are different calibers of speakers. I don't want to mention any names. I'm curious if they want to think that they might speak on your stage one day. What is it that you found that makes for a really good speaker? Who are you actively looking for?

So this is the big thing I found from speakers over the years, because I've hired a lot of speakers, a lot of. Done a lot of favors where you put somebody on a stage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And as an event organizer or the host of the party, so to speak, when somebody's bombing on stage, it's like your skin is crawling, you know, like, it's like, imagine these bugs, and you're just trying to get that. You just want them off, man, because you're like, man, I could see all the people in the audience looking at their phone. I saw a bunch of people go to the bathroom. Somebody's bombing right now. And we've all seen this. I remember one time we let our members have a chance at speaking at our event, and you were with me in the back of the room, and one girl was bombing, and me and you couldn't even watch, bro. We were, like, cringing in the back of the room, and you looked at me and you said, it's really hard to watch this. And I was like, dude, it's so bad. So what I found is there's a lot of people who have the knowledge, but there's very few people who can teach. And there's also very even fewer people who could keep your attention for an hour. So, first of all, don't give people hour time slots if you're not sure, because, I mean, you could do some damage in 20 minutes, but at least it's not an hour, right? 20 minutes. We can all sit through that. We can get through that. So if I was unsure on somebody in the beginning, I would give them a shorter slot. You can always expand if necessary. If it's going great, be like, hey, man, keep going. Add some time to the clock. Cool. If they're bombing, you can get them off. But. So speakers that I've seen do really well, Chris, are people who can tell stories, people who can. Doesn't mean you have to be like super aggressive or loud. But people who, for some reason there's certain people when they speak, the audience listens. And there's other people when they speak, they don't command that same attention. I don't know. That's an intangible. I've yet to get the formula because someone like you soft spoken. But everybody's eyes are open looking at you on the stage. They're not looking at their phone or their notebook or ducking out of the room. So what is that because you're not yelling? Maybe it's just. They just believe that you know what you're doing. I don't know what it is. It's some connection that happens. So what I've done, as I've gotten further along and the stakes are higher now where I've promised people that this is going to be amazing and I can't afford to have anybody. Bomb is now I ask, I really go deep on watching previous talks. I ask people. So I'll ask Chris, hey, who do you know that can talk on this topic? Chris will say, I saw this lady, I saw this guy, he crushed it. Okay, good. Like, so I really do my research. It's not just. I'm not just shooting blind anymore, but in the beginning I was. I've had several people bomb on stage, including myself. And it's not a good thing.

You're like a lot of people bomb. I'm on top of that list. But I've worked through it.

But the way you get through it is like you just. I hire a speaking coach. I had to hire someone. And then I had to do a lot of practice. And even to this day I'll watch the film back. And I did a lot of ums and ahs and I wasn't myself. And what was it that I did beforehand that got me off my game? Like, you know how it is. Like, what are the tweaks you need to make to get better? It's like, I think it's like sports, you know, the best athletes watch the film, game film. I watch back my talk and be like, dude, I could do better next time. You know. And most of it, what I found comes down to is preparation, like putting the prep in. And the more prepared I am, the less nervous I am, the less like I'm worried about like someone throwing me off because I can roll with it. And then the biggest thing that's helped me and I think a lot of the people who crush it is just reps, man. Like, I know you talked about, you don't really like public speaking, but at this point, I feel like you're more comfortable with it than you were five years ago. You're not worried as much as you were before. You don't have the same nervous energy anymore.

Yeah, I'm not in the bathroom as much anymore.

Yeah, the same with me. Like, I would have to go to the. Run to the bathroom. And then the worst for me was my mouth would go dry on stage. So then I got jugs of water and I'm having to chug all this water 20 minutes into the talk. I got to go take a piss. What are you going to do now? You got a 40 minute talk, you know, so this is the main thing I noticed when hiring speakers is don't necessarily worry so much about how known they are. Worry about the what are they going to teach and are they good at teaching and can they keep the people's attention? Are they good at storytelling? I've had people come through that. Nobody knew their name and they loved him afterwards. People like Erwin. Nobody knew Erwin in my community. Now they love Erwin because he's a good orator. He's a good speaker. He tells stories where people listen. So, like, you can learn. Plus they command your attention. And then I was gonna say one other thing about speakers. I noticed this, that there's a lot of people out there who will do the same talk. And they kind of one trick ponies. We've all seen this. Now you might think that this guy's proven or this gal's proven. And it's true. They have an amazing talk and they can. And they check all the boxes, but they've got one thing that they can do. And so if your audience has already seen that one thing, then it's kind of like not the best investment because now they're just gonna do the same thing. And I've had that happen a few times where I thought, this is the world's top speaker in xyz. And they are. But they only have one way of presenting and it's just that same signature talk. The best speakers I found are the ones who can make something custom for your people or adjust. Even if they have like a standard talk, could they adjust it for your group?

I think there's this thing where when we feel like it's a talk track or a script that you read, whether it's real or not, if we feel that, then it throws us off a little bit. And so the ability to improvise or to tailor what you're speaking about to Your audience and to update it, like, that was the same talk he gave seven years ago. The world's changed a lot in seven years. AI wasn't being talked about the rise and fall of crypto or whatever it is. A lot has happened. Like, how come the talk is the same? I think that's what throws a lot of people off. But I'm going to venture a guess, a hypothesis, and I'd love to hear your feedback on this. I think speakers who have the intention to serve will always be better speakers. Some speakers have the intention to self edify, to fulfill or boost up their own ego. Like, look at me, how important am I? Aren't I so clever? Isn't my success amazing? And they're not literally saying that, but they're behaving in that way. And I think some people are fooled by that for a little bit. But if you go to enough events, you're like, wait a minute, this doesn't feel right. I don't think they're here for me, they're here for themselves. And I'm not telling you I'm the world's best presenter or public speaker. But my intentionality is always, how do I honor the people that matter? Number one is you and Trevor. I want to make sure Neil made a bet on me and Trevor made a bet on me that I don't let them down. So I'm always thinking, like, what can I do better? How do I incorporate? Like, how do I serve them? And number two, and it's a very close number two here is how do I make sure every single person to the best of my ability gets their money's worth? Because that's the responsibility that you entrusted me with. Right. Not only did they buy a ticket, which is like a thousand bucks, they flew out there, they're taking away time from work and family, they're putting themselves up in a hotel. It's a big freaking investment. And I take that investment very seriously. I want to make sure I deliver. So I think it's about this intentionality that then everything else, if your slides aren't perfect, if you're not the most dynamic speaker, if you don't have this booming, commanding voice, it's all okay because it is filtered through what it is that you're trying to do, which is to serve. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, that's a great point. I love that. Because that would explain why some people who don't have the most polished talk sometimes get the best reviews afterwards. And there's people who have that polished, perfect Talk track thing, that can do well too. It's just that audience, you can only do it one time and then it kind of decays from there in terms of like how effective it is. But yeah, I think that's the case. Like, I really wanted to do the best I can. And you can even be self deprecating, be honest. Like I've seen, I used to do this in the beginning, I would come on stage and say, guys, you know what? I'm actually terrified of public speaking, so you'll have to give me a little bit of leeway here. Because of xyz, I would say it sometime during the talk and the eyes be, no, dude, you're doing great, man. Thank you so much. And just trying to provide value. So I even asked the audience at some point during the talk, multiple times, hey, is this helping you? I'm on the right track here. Do you want to go deeper on this? And then that way they feel like, oh, this dude really cares about giving us value. It's not just him trying to go from A to B on the talk track. So they give you a lot more grace because of that.

Yeah, it is. Because you're also kind of being very transparent and vulnerable because it's like, I'm working through this and I'm doing the best I can versus, hey, I'm the best thing since sliced bread. And I'm going to go out here and do my thing and you're going to love me for it. See how great I am. It's an attitude, it's an idea, it's a philosophy. And I think it translates through lots of things.

Yeah, I love that. And I think one thing that people can do who are trying to do more of this is like, anytime you can incorporate actual things you've done into the talk, the audience doesn't care so much about how perfect you are as a public speaker because you're teaching something that worked. So if I said, here's a strategy I'm using right now that does xyz, here's the example or the proof, Then they're like, it's more about like tactics and facts rather than am I the best on stage? They don't really care anymore because they're getting something from it.

Right. Smoking. Like a true instructor there. A true teacher. Neil, there's a lot more I want to talk to you about, but I realized that, like, I'm a little over time here. And so I think this is probably a good way for us to close the call. I've enjoyed your stories and your vulnerability, talking about your marriage, talking about how you built this from almost nothing to what it is today. And I think you're doing like, of the people that I get to see, you're doing one of the best jobs out there as an event organizer. You're sitting there because we'll talk about like, oh, how can we improve this? What can we do better? And you're never taking it for granted. And I think the people who show for you understand that and recognize and appreciate, and that's why they're willing to go to bat for you each and every single time. So I appreciate you for jumping on the show today, Neil.

Thank you, man. Appreciate it. This has been fun.

And, you know, word of warning, we'll do the Whitney episode and it'll be a good, like, comparison for A to B. So thanks for jamming with us and thanks for sharing so openly.

Thank you, bro. Guys, this is Neil Dhingra and you are listening to the Future.

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