ATG & Extras For Athletes

The topic for today is ATG lessons from Athletic Truth Group. Maybe things that aren't being spoken about so much as far as athletic development goes. And you know, beyond that, what, what you guys are looking at. I know you're inquisitive coaches. We're looking for solutions, always questioning, looking for what's best, what's next. And yeah, that's the discussion topic for today. So who'd like to open up, maybe throw to you? Zach, you're, you got the arsenal there, which is my brother and father's favorite team. And yeah, you've made a really good business for yourself in Florida around that ATG system. But I also know you remain very inquisitive and curious about, you know what, what other questions do we need to answer? What else can we do here?

Yeah, absolutely. First, good to know that your, your family's got such good taste in sports teams. That's fantastic. But definitely it's, it's like we were talking about before. It's very, very open ended. But I do think there's, there's a ton of potential with this stuff here. Like, I've used this system with tons of different athletes from different sports, from different age groups of different abilities, and I keep seeing it be very, very effective for, for all of them. I've got a group of football guys right now that were doing like some off season work before they go back to their training camp. And these guys are guys that have much more of like traditional training experience, a lot of like traditional strength and conditioning, lifting and that sort of stuff. And they're just eating this stuff up. Like it works really, really well with them. Like, even guys that have more of a lifting background, squatting deep with chains, getting these guys doing Nordics, doing stuff where we're working on their ankles. So there's, I don't know, there's just so many different kind of rabbit holes to, to go down and stuff like that. But I'm finding it. The more and more I get into it, the more I kind of explore with other stuff I keep, I find myself continuing to come back to a lot of these principles and a lot of these ideas lately. Going through some of the old, like, ATG archives of stuff that Ben used to be doing back in his, like, gym, back when he was running out of Clearwater and some of the systems and protocols that he was using then with his athletes. And yeah, I mean, I think there's just so much to offer from people that I'm working with coming off of ACL tears, which is kind of my niche to, like, collegiate football guys trying to, like, crack skulls and run faster and hit people. Like, I'm finding it to be effective across kind of all demographics.

Yeah, I think that's, that's a great place to start. Is like, I think this will continue to be a base layer that, you know, we'll continue to come back to. And anything that you experiment with, it's going to fit into the context. And if you do look through the archive, those of us have been following this journey, you know, Ben's journey in particular, for the last sort of five years. There have been a lot of variations. And it's important to add to this conversation that, you know, what's being delivered now for ATG online is to solve a specific purpose. And that's not the same specific purpose that was being solved in some of those early videos that you're talking about. When Ben was coaching a bunch of high school football players who he wanted to get drafted and, and high school basketball players, like, there were some significant differences in the actual training protocols, not the philosophy and not so much the even. I mean, some, some stuff with the programming as well. But there were, you know, there were different things being done. Some of the equipment, some of the movement types, they don't translate necessarily well to online training, to thousands, but that doesn't mean that they're not relevant to coaches to understand. So I think looking back at, okay, what, what happened there in the past versus, you know, what's, what's happening now. It's always good to consider what, what are the goals of this coach? What is the situation that they're trying to solve? You know, what's. Because things are always going to be skewed by the lens of what they're trying to solve. So, for example, Charles Poliquin loved arms training, he loved bodybuilding, and he was influenced by Vince Gironda, and, you know, he really cared about that aesthetic. And so he became the best body composition focused, you know, best bodybuilding strength coach in history. And turns out that if you can consistently add mass and drop fat to athletes who are already working hard and in good programs, they win a lot. And that works very well. And that was the problem he was solving. For myself, my big goal is to transform the minds of coaches, that they expand their vision for their future. And so when you look at my training system, to a lot of people, it doesn't make any sense why we're doing what we're doing with uncommon success, with a lot of the challenges and testing and doing different sorts of movements. But in the context of how, how do we have more coaches? Do something like what Ben Patrick's done, maybe it makes more sense. Do something like what Nico's done, what Graham Tuttle's done, what you're doing, Zach, what you've done. Matthew Scar, like, the idea for me has always been you need to expand the identity of the athlete to be able to get to their best performance. And that was my philosophy back working in France, working in the NRL in Australia is like you have to expand the identity of the athlete. And so this is a good place to start, is that we acknowledge the current system of ATG has amazing value and it's doing what it's meant to do. And we should also consider what Ben was doing in the past and you know what other scenarios exist for coaches to deviate potentially from those core sort of four programs or things that you can find in the app. What's coming up for you here?

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think one of the things that's important to think about too is that when you do get like top level athletes, like I've got got a guy who's in Premier League camp right now, some Division 1 guys and some lower level pros, it's like, man, those, those guys need the basics more than some of the guys that I've had come in that are like hoping to get a spot on a college roster somewhere. Like, it's for a lot of those guys, it's like, man, you can't even fully close your knee joint, your ankle range of motion is like a board. Like I was talking to my guy yesterday, he's like, yeah, man, all we ever really did was like trap, barter, trap bar, deadlifts, like really positional specific stuff. And he's like, I feel so weak at those end ranges. And it's not that we don't want to get strong in those positional areas, but it's like you need to be balanced. Like there's the idea of structural balance, but you also need to be balanced between the ranges. So he was, he was strong in that quarter squat. We've talked about it like a mid thigh pull, but couldn't even get into a position for a deep squat. So a lot of times the best athletes and people like Ben Clairfield said it before, it's like, you might be an expert in your sport, but rarely are you an expert in the sport and in the weight room.

Yeah, I think I just want to bounce off what Matt said, basically. So coming from Division One playing football. You know, the reason why I stepped off of that and decided to do this coaching was literally the reason I completely disagree with the strength training that I was doing at that level. And I constantly was hurt and I constantly had a bunch of hip issues. And again, we did the trap bar deads, the box squats, all short range stuff. And we were so weak and not flexible in the end ranges. And the more and more I like dove deeper into ATG and I looked at Ben, I looked at Lucas, Aaron, stuff, range, and the more and more I unlocked movements that I couldn't before. So now that I'm having multiple, you know, high school couple D1 kids coming in the gym now and training these styles, like, they don't want to put it down just because they know, you know, they, they are unlocking these movements. They're feeling more comfortable in playing. Right. So, like, for example, I had a kid come in, he's a, a DB at Lafayette University, and he just got done box squatting the day before. So I'm like, okay, can we just work a little bit of mobility, do some split squats, few like incline pigeons just like to get going. But we were going to do majority upper day.

Right.

But I just wanted to like introduce him to the stuff. And he was just like, I'm ridiculously tight. And I'm like, yeah, well, like, just imagine how long, how much faster, how much more explosive you could be if you unlock these ranges. And that's like the reason why I stepped back from football and taking that route. Just because I know that there's work to be done and improvement in like, the systems that I was involved in.

Yeah. So the entry level here is kind of what we're talking about with people who haven't been exposed to ATG concepts at all or this, these idea of range training where you need to train the long range, extreme long range positions, which we can define as the positions where you start to get a stretch or the end of the range of motion of the joint. And the extreme range, I classify as like when you have multiple joints that are all sort of pulling to make that stretch even further. So the leg is straight, say on a hamstring curl, and if you focus on the bottom range on a hamstring curl, you would say that's long range, if you do the bottom 25 degrees. But then if you also flex from, you know, flex the spine, flex the trunk and, and then do that movement, then it becomes more like extreme long range, which would be more like your seated, you Know you're standing, single leg, good morning or you're Jefferson Curl, these kinds of movements. So this is the key technology that we're talking about. There's still those who argue that it doesn't have any place for athletes to focus on this. And there's a strong argument that, okay, if you do that, you're going to get more injuries or you're going to become less elastic. We spoke quite a lot about that on the podcast that we did in Florida. I think if we move beyond that conversation and we move beyond the beginner status, which sort of, Matthew, you're talking about there with working with a Premier League athlete, which is freaking an awesome thing in itself to, to be like, you know, you started on this system a couple of years ago, you were, you studied, you didn't study exercise science and now you're working with a Premier League athlete. Like what are the odds of someone you're following that path or doing that? Like that's, that in itself is an amazing thing. You know yourself, Justin, as well, you've been talking about pro athletes around the world. Like it doesn't, it didn't used to happen like this. It doesn't usually happen like this. So that also tells us that athletes are recognizing this technology is like, this is something that I need to go deeper into and I want to be able to work directly with a coach who's going to give me feedback on this. So we've got that base layer. We work through the base layer. It's pretty clear that for most people are going to intuitively feel a lot better when they do that. Like what, what would you say is the feedback that you're getting in that first sort of three to six months? Jack, when you, you know, you're implementing this with someone who's potentially done that program that's more position specific strength, which is really short term gain, concentric, dominant, potentially set them up for the ACL injury that you're seeing them for. What, what are your, you know, what are you seeing in that first part? And then we can maybe go on to like, okay, we've covered the basics, you know what, where else can this go?

Yeah, I'll use my like football guys as an example because they've also got like quite a bit of a background of training in, in that style and are kind of just getting introduced to like system and philosophies. And so I think the, the, the most instant feedback, the thing that you feel the first is like what you're talking about, just that feel good Factor, like just for whatever reason, like your body just feels a little bit more loose, relaxed, like secure. Like that's the, that's the most instant feedback that people are getting when we start to improve that mobility. Especially with some of these bigger guys and stuff like that. They just don't feel so locked up. They have the ability to kind of just move and feel a little bit more comfortable in their body. That's probably the quickest. Then as we start to attack some of these just other areas that have been kind of glossed over by kind of some of these more traditional systems and stuff like that. So we've done a ton of work for the foot, the ankle, the lower leg, a lot of calf, a lot of tib stuff. But actually train them seriously, compared to just banging out a few like calf raises at the end of a workout, like they're used to doing that sort of thing. Things like the Nordics, like they can just feel a sense of again, just kind of like strength and athleticism as they're starting to get back into their, like their OTAs, their off season training camps and stuff like that to get ready to go into preseason. These are some of the big things. We're going to do some testing in probably another three, four weeks before we send them off on their way to actually look at some, some numbers for speed and jumping. But I think the quickest thing is again, just that feel good factor, that ability to move more as we improve their mobility and then attacking some of those weak links seems to just make everything feel stronger. When they get back into their traditional lifts, just because like you think about that rising tide that lifts all ships, most of them are very developed neurologically through their hips. They can produce a lot of force, but they just have a few key areas that are not developed to the same degree. And so when we can bring those up to kind of play catch up or to now kind of have everything at a much more even level, it allows them to unlock another level of output of performance. Because the brain's smart enough not to allow you to do something that's going to hurt yourself for the most part. So when we can bring everything up to be a little bit more balanced now, they can start to hit that next gear of force, output of speed, of power, everything like that.

I think one of the, one of the things you hit on there with sort of like the weaklings, it's kind of a like almost an overused phrase, but a phrase that can't really be overused. Like I still. So I Still play soccer with guys that I played with in high school that aren't competitive anymore just for fun. And people know that I work with athletes, so they'll come, hey, my ankle's bugging me, like, what can I do? Or, like, I got some with my name and just giving them simple things. Like, I give one guy, like, just do these tib raises with the kettlebell. He didn't have a tib bar. He didn't have anything. And he came back to me, like, a couple weeks ago. A couple weeks after, he's like, dude, I feel like all of the scar tissue in my ankle is gone. It's like, when you give somebody the right. Even the basic thing, like, it can make a really big difference if you've never trained it before. Like, if you've been squatting, deadlifting, leg curl, whatever, for years, but you've never done a tib brace. Like, especially in a sport like soccer, with all the tight cleats with all of the different surfaces and everything. It's like that little thing can make a pretty big difference a lot of times. Yeah.

I think.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just talking about, like, scar tissue. Like, I had a kid, he's a senior in high school, just got an mri. Torn meniscus, sprained acl, strained IT band.

That's.

That's what was, like, the diagnosis of the whole mri. He came in, we just did sled. Real light sled. I did a few, like, incline pigeons and real light pulsing split squats on a bench, like, super high incline. And the couple days after, he was, like, running with the team. No pain and, like, it's crazy how much, like, you can diagnose that through an mri. You don't know when that ever happened. But he can come into the gym and just do these movements a couple times, and he's already back to playing his sport at some level. Not 100, but at some level. And I think that testing a squat and noticing, like, the imbalances going full range with a slant board is, like, a huge indicator of, like, directly what you need to work on for. For that specific person, at least for, like, majority. Obviously, ankle and, like, ankle to knee is a little different, but if they have hip or low back issues, like, testing that squat is, like, the most basic level to just get put. Put basic movements in, to just get the steps moving forward to, like, out of pain, improving that. That weak low back, you know? So I just think the testing the deep squat and just using the basics can really make a difference.

Yeah.

And just one last point. For all of this as well. Like four guys that are at that higher level and stuff like that. Like, it's counterintuitive to think that we can do some of these like smaller, more like accessory movements and get actual like performance gains, like improvements in speed and jumping and stuff like that. But for a lot of these guys that are already like very athletic at a high level, but they're just missing these pieces, like we can create genuine, not just the feel good factor, but genuine, like performance increases by just building up some of these strength bits in that ankle, that lower leg. Like it said like the tib raises, that sort of thing. Like, we're not saying that if you're 15 years old and never trained and do six weeks of TIB raises, like you're going to become like a freak athlete. Like these obviously have to build up all of these pieces over a long period of time. But for some of these people that are older, that are more developed, that have again, just that higher level of output, cleaning up a couple of these links again can kind of unlock that next level where we can actually make these guys faster, stronger by hitting some of these like smaller, like quote unquote, accessory muscle groups movements, things like that.

Yeah, that becomes super important, especially with the guys. Like the college guys play the D1 season the whole year, and then as soon as it's done, they have like two weeks and they go play USL2 for the whole summer until preseason starts. So you really don't have time to do the like 12 week, three, four blocks of three weeks, make a full transformation. It's like that's when you really have to be like, what is the little things that these people need? Like, do you need split squats three times a week and like to do very little else? Or like, is it a lower leg thing? Do you need the hip mobility? Like you can't do everything. So that's what I've been looking at. Especially people start to go into preseason now, it's like, what, what are the little things that each one of these athletes needs and how can we do it in a way that doesn't affect your on field performance? Because that's still the most important thing. As much as we like to talk about all of the strength and getting healthy and that, it's like, then this is entirely a supporting point to how well you do on the field.

Yeah, yeah.

When we were, when we were down in Florida, I remember talking to you guys. I was speaking to the jet safety for a brief period of time, still speaking to him now, but I was going to be training him maybe one to two days a week.

Right.

And he had a little adductor issue.

Right.

So I'm. I gotta think in an hour, right. What can I use to have him be okay for at OTAs, you know, double sessions, whatever workouts with his team, but improve. He wanted to improve speed and he had a little adductor problem. Right. And he's, he doesn't want to mention it to the team because it's like in his last year of his contract and it's like, what movements should I use? Only a couple that can just get him going in the right direction, but at the same time be ready, ready to go.

So.

So that's a really good import. Important point. And Keegan, if you want to like kind of just jump in and like move things in another direction, like, let me know. But like in terms of, especially for like other coaches getting into this and stuff like that, in terms of like how do you deal with stuff in season or how do you like program for specific athletes? Like, this is one of the things that again, going through some of the older protocols that Ben used to have at ATG is something that he would do a lot of and something that maybe gets lost is like when we look at the ATG stuff, we're breaking things down into so many tiny little pieces, like joint by joint, short range, long range, and it's easy to end up with 15 movements that you're trying to cram in into a workout. And so you end up just like touching on 10 things and not really training any one thing. And so a lot of his old programs would be two exercises that you would do 10 rounds in and you would just kind of rotate those movements like day by day. And so you get a real like training stimulus, real adaptation. Like you're doing 10 sets of calves and sled and like that's your workout and then you go home. But the idea, like you're going to get such a powerful adaptation for that and then next day you come in and you do Nordics and hip flexors, whatever it is. And so especially with a lot of these guys, like you're talking about when we have a limited period of time or if we're dealing with like kind of in season athletes or different things, like what are the biggest low hanging fruit? And so rather than trying to cover 15 things at once, like what are the two things that I can hit hard, where I know I can actually train and adapt, like actually get better at some of these Things like that's one of the biggest differences I think with the old system and how Ben would coach in person. It's. We have all of these movements, we have all these standards. Yes. But it's every time we train, like he's literally trying to get better at all these. If we're in a team setting, like having the metrics, having all these guys like compete of, okay, this guy can do this, this guy can do this. Like they're pushing each other rather than kind of just checking the box of yes, I've done my tib raises today, like I've done my split squats, like that sort of thing. But that I think mentality shift is a, is a big piece when we're looking at training anybody, but like actually like training these things and not just kind of going through the movements, going through the motions.

Yeah, there's, yeah a lot there, good stuff that we can dive deeper into. If, if those who are listening in, if you want to ask anything specific or give feedback on your, your experience, welcome to do that. We'll go sort of more of Q and A format in a minute. But yeah, if like the, what you do beyond doing these basics is something that 90, 95% of people probably never need and may never get to. So rebalancing the body, short and long range and structural balance, getting out of pain, feeling like you're able to actually go 100% and you know, pursuing those basics numbers, that does 90, 95% of the job. Like that is what most athletes need to do, you know, probably want to do. That's what they're coming for. Getting some of that long range strength, going through that process is a huge part of it. And you could definitely build a great career as an athlete or as a coach. Never going beyond that conversation. So it's not necessary to understand deeper concepts of, you know, how to take an athlete to world record levels, beat all the competition. But it is still valuable to look at. Okay, what would that Next, that top 5% or 2% that is beyond what we're doing here. Where, where is that going to come from? Or what is it outside of the ATG programming that you're going to get online that is, is essential or supplementary to, to what you see in there. So how are you guys seeing that? I know you've experimented with various things over the time, over the years, but is there something big that jumps out at you in regards to that potential top 2 to 5% which is probably not relevant to the vast majority of athletes and the vast majority of coaches listening. But it's still an important conversation from the perspective of when you set a new standard, then everyone else has to adjust to that standard. So it's, it's still, it's still valuable even if it's not the most important thing. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I, I think the biggest thing that stood out for me in at least for myself when I was training compared to like when I, like when I first started ATG and then where I am now and I think the increase for me for speed and trying to get I guess more athletic ability. If you look at a lot of Benzold stuff and you'll also look at, I look a lot at Lucas Aaron as well that, that top extension. So for example like single legged back extension and single legged Nordics. Keegan, I know you mentioned those maybe like two, three weeks ago talking to me like learning to be strong in that top extension helped me so much in just, you know, getting my sprints in throughout the week. I just, I noticed a difference working that, that top extension in the single leg deadlift. I think that's like one of the freaky, like a freak, I guess type of freak athlete standard to get to is working, you know, 50, 50%, 75% even body weight single leg back extension. I think that's huge.

I think the, the next layer that athletes need once you've mastered the basics, if anybody ever masters the basics to be seen is the elasticity part. And Ben's talked about it and there's, it pops up occasionally with what Ben talks about. Like occasionally he'll post a video on bounds or talk about sprinting hard once a week or talk about doing his once a week dunking. But adding in something like the, like the rhythm squats, adding in something. I mean it doesn't, I mean there's plenty of exercises outside of it and this is where a lot of coaches that don't aren't super big fans of the ATG system spend most of their time in the elasticity. And there's probably an aspect of like people not feeling that great and not putting everything into all the plyometric exercises that probably holds back their effectiveness a little bit. And why so many people that have spent a lot of time mastering range and all this ATG stuff are like, oh my God, these plyometrics are exploding my vertical. Because just building strength is awesome. The stronger you can get pound for pound, the better. But when you can start to increase the ability to rebound, like doing the depth jumps, doing single Leg depth, jumps, doing the pogos, doing again the rhythm, squats, low rim dunking, sprinting, bounds, whatever. There's a million exercises. You're gonna find the one that's right for you, but that can be a big thing. And then one other smaller point, I guess this might open a rabbit hole, but I'm try to keep it A small point is the foot. And there is foot training, obviously. But I think there is an aspect for people that have more difficulty with the foot. Like I had the ankle problems for a long, long time and I still do just because there's a little bit of bone in one of my ligaments. But I had MRIs before and after and it was chronic sprains and all the ligaments and inflammation, tendinitis and all the tendons pretty much. But adding in a little bit of extra foot training where it's needed for people can be really helpful. Like I've given. Some guys need to have the ability to pronate just their foot is totally locked up. Their toes don't move, they don't have the mobility in their toes to get into the right positions to push off. So there's occasionally you'll get somebody that needs the footwork and that can kind of supercharge everything, but a lot of people don't need it. So that would be two things. The elasticity and the. In the foot.

Yeah, for me, probably the top two kind of echoing Matthew's point of like, yeah, like Ben doesn't talk about it as much, but he's been doing his like dunk sessions or his basketball sessions like once a week hard for six years now, eight years now, like as long as he's been been doing the system. And so if you almost think about the, the system, like the ATG stuff is building the, like the reserve or the potential to be able to handle some of these like more intense outputs. You do have to go and continually express that as well. And so yeah, that's definitely something that, with the direction that ATG has gone now with like the online programming, like who it's meant for. It's not something that he talks about a ton. But think about the just like the amount of time that he's spent like jumping hard over the years that he's been doing the system, I think that's. That complement is, is very, very necessary and kind of going hand in hand with that. I think the next place to go once you've like, let's say if we've got most of the standards down, like we're Fairly structurally balanced. The mobility that is there and stuff like that is the intent with which we're like applying some of these things. Like if you actually get face to face with Ben, like if you watch these guys watch him train in person, it's the, the amount of focus and detail and effort that goes into every single rep that he does, whether it's in the gym or on the court, is at a very high level. He's usually less interested in. He absolutely does pursue numbers and pursues like getting stronger. But even more than that, will pursue the, like the absolute perfect rep. Like fantastic execution, great range of motion, tempo, like all of these things. And is strict almost to a fault about policing himself of not pushing beyond what he's capable of like that day. And then the intent with which he applies to the court as well. Like when he's trying to play basketball, when he's doing his dunk sessions and stuff like that. Like dudes out there to, to win, like when they're playing 1v1 and stuff like that. Like he's out there with college and NBA guys, like not trying to embarrass people, but like trying to win to trying to go hard. And so like, once you've gotten that, that structural balance piece and once you've hit that base level, like if you're trying to go to an elite standard, Keegan's talking about trying to get to like world class performance. The, the way you do things, the intention with which you do things, both in the gym and on the court or whatever it is your sport. I think that's the, the most essential thing, the biggest piece that you need, like obviously just extended over a longer time horizon.

Yeah, the foot thing, Zach, I know you went pretty deep on that for a bit as well. Like give us your current take on, on feet. Do you agree with where Matthew went with that? What would you add?

It's interesting, I definitely think to his point that there can be guys that are limited by it. And so it, like if you can, if guys are really, really locked up, they've got past issues. Scar tissue, Ma got a bone that's still stuck in there. Like you can definitely get some, some big return from spending some extra time really working on that. I do think the mobility for sure is something that everybody should get into. That ability just to flex the toes and stuff like that, to open up the plantar fascia. Like all of this stuff is connected. I'll see a lot of guys with, with tight hamstrings, tight calves that will spend a Lot of time, like working, stretching, but then actually getting into the toes, you'll find that's kind of like, oh, this is the piece that's. That's kind of holding all of that back in terms of the. The training. Like, I've gotten into the fascial stuff and that sort of thing. Like, I think it's. It's interesting. I think there's something to it. I'm not convinced. It's like a big rock for me yet. For me, I still am seeing it as the. The kind of, like, icing on the cake. So, like, I'm experimenting with that some in my own training, but it's definitely like the 10%, the 20% for me rather than the meat and potatoes. So, again, if somebody's got major issues there, definitely worth spend taking a look. But in terms of the actual performance side of things, I know if we really want to go into. If we talk about the fascial stuff, everyone's towel curls and stuff like that are all the rage now. And I'm just. I know I'm. It's a tough sell for me that towel curls are going to make you a better athlete than Nordic curls. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like the adaptation piece that you're going to get from there. So do I think they're harmful? No. Do I think there's potential benefit? Maybe. But I'm still seeing it as the. The icing on the cake rather than the. The thing that's really going to drive results.

Yeah, I think. I mean, it's. It's pretty. A pretty specific thing. Like, it's not like, I. Everybody that comes in, like, all right, we're gonna spend the first six weeks on your feet just to make sure they're up to par. And I also. I think valuable point is Graham Tuttle's probably not gonna be happy with me, but, like, I don't really care about the toe splay and all of that. Like, I. I care about the toes more. Like, I have a guy who can't get into a full split squat position, like, because of his toes in the back. Like, like, all right, get deep. He's 4 inches elevated on the front foot or so, and he's, like, on the tip of his big toe in the back, so he just doesn't bend. And it's like, the ankle ability really kind of sucks, too. It's like, all right, that's somebody that needs the foot work. Like, needs mobility in the plantar fascia and the big toe and everything.

Yep.

Because, like, if you're gonna push forward, like, you aren't going to produce any force from that tip of your big toe. Like, everything comes through the ball. So that's, I think it's a little.

There's not much argument for the work. I think Karl Gianni's done a good job of putting forward some stuff around foot posture. And yeah, the idea of sort of stretching out the, the fascia of, you know, getting especially that big toe mobility, I, it does seem to make a lot of sense. And I think having had Achilles issues myself, I can say that when I stretch out the big toe and the fascia of the foot, it often alleviates issues in the, in the Achilles and it's like an easy win to kind of improve that area. But yeah. Do you need to be able to play the piano with, with your toes? Like, I've kind of had this discussion with, with Graham as well, and it's good that there's, you know, everyone should put their ideas and their best foot forward and see what impact it has. But to me, it's like, do you need to be able to play the piano with your hands to be a good weightlifter or to be a good rugby player? Like, you don't need to be able to play the piano. Therefore, you know, it doesn't matter at all. Like, if, if you want to be able to be very dexterous with your feet, like, if you are performing a super high skill task, like for rugby, you, you need your fingers to be working very well. So I think there's benefits to be made from juggling, for example, where you become much more dexterous with your, with your fingers and each finger functions better. It's just better connected to the brain. Do you need that when you're wearing boots and such in the feet? Like, I, it's hard for me also to see the argument for it. But yeah, there's, there's big questions about this of, like, how much difference can it make? Like, if LeBron James has the worst feet you've ever seen and he's the best athlete, then some other athlete should be able to get a foot coach and go and bypass him. If that doesn't happen, then it's not a big rock, because the best athletes can't have the worst abilities and be the best in spite of them. In my opinion. Like, they're not genetically that different from everybody else that they can have. If it is a big rock. If, if, if LeBron James had extremely weak quads or calves or meniscus Integrity. He wouldn't be the same if he had a bad shoulder that he couldn't, you know, move above his head. Like, yeah, that would be a big rock. Like he wouldn't be able to shoot or he wouldn't be able to sprint like that. There's a, you know that. But that doesn't make foot training a bad thing. That doesn't mean if you play in the sauna and you're playing around with your toes and seeing what you can do with them, like, happy days. There's no training cost to it. It doesn't need to be bashed. It just. How far is it going to take you? I'm not too sure. You know, the, the, the training system of. I'm blanking on the name. The Marinovic training system is very foot dominant and there's some really cool stuff in there. And I think that actually makes a lot of sense from an athletic perspective and a lot of that is there within. You see, you see crossovers between these things. So that's why it's good to have a big frame of reference. What's Cado Zioni doing? What, what. What's Graham T. What was there in the Marinovic system and the different branches that have gone out of that system? Like, I love exploring all those things and I encourage coaches and athletes to have a big frame of reference, like love ATG and use it. And to me it is like if you had to only choose one thing and go really hard on it and get 95%, you know, that would be it. But I would encourage everyone to stay inquisitive. We've got a bunch of questions coming in there on the YouTube as well, which is cool. We've had 20, 30 people on there most of the chat. For some reason I couldn't see them. So apologies for, for ignoring you guys. I didn't mean to ignore you there.

But can I jump back in on the foot thing real quick? Just one last thing.

Cool, cool. There's a question about the foot. Anyway, what do you do for footwork? Came in from Rory.

Yeah, so like the, the mobility, stretching thing I think is. Is massive for everybody. But then in terms of the actual like training side of things, for me, like, especially. So I come from a soccer background, same as Matty, like training barefoot, like getting these like doing sprints barefoot out in the grass. Like back before I had my gym, we were training out of the park, like just doing like max effort sprints would light guys feet up next day, like they were sore for days after that. Playing like actual soccer barefoot. There's a little park right by my house. Like I would play pickup with all these like Hispanic guys and we're all playing barefoot and stuff like that. And from like even like for soccer specific, like to improve like your touch and that sort of thing. But then the actual just functionality of the foot, like, like, I think that's, I think that stuff's massively effective for like the skill side of things for soccer, but then even just for athletes as well. So I try and do a ton of that. Like, I like to walk barefoot, do like the grounding, sunlight, all of that stuff. Like, I think that stuff's massively beneficial as well. Just from just like a lifestyle health perspective. But that's where my like quote unquote foot training. That's where I spend most of my time. I just want to throw that out there.

Yeah, yeah, that's. It's a good thing to come back to if you're training step ups, if you're training FHL calf raises, if you're training sleds, if you're doing some sprinting, if you're playing some soccer benefit like you are training your feet. It's just a question of exactly which tools you use and how much isolation you need.

And.

Yeah, there's, there's quite a few questions. They're quite a bit of discussion there around the foot stuff. This. Yeah, some, some love going towards the, the dense low level players. That's. That's another one that fits into this category. It's kind of feet, it's kind of players. It's a good one to bring up as well. Where do you, where do you stand on the low level players?

I use them. I, I use it for people. I don't use them for everybody. Like, there's the argument to be made, like, how much are the 120 little pogo hops you're gonna do compared to 90 minutes on a, on a field or on a court? Like, is that really going to do anything in terms of just general stimulus? Probably not going to do that much. But if you focus it on like, all right, I want to teach you to be as springy as possible and be able to load the arch and unload it quickly and build like that, or to teach something specific, then there's definitely value to it. People use it again, a lot for the arch, a lot for the toe. If you do a barefoot, even better in general, like, it's. I don't think that's something that's gonna give you the raw stimulus to make a transformation. But it does have, it does have a benefit there for specific people.

Yeah, I do, I do like them. I use them in small doses. I use them mostly more with my like ACL return to sport athletes more than my healthy athletes. But I like thinking about them more as a like structural piece rather than. Or like chasing a structural adaptation. More so than when you think of plyometrics, you think of max effort and that sort of thing. So like I like taking these stuffs to the point of fatigue, like the same way just boxers used to like jump rope and that sort of thing, but taking it to the point where it's actually like challenging energy wise, like fatigue wise to get more of that, that structural piece that I'm chasing in like all the tendons, ligaments, connective tissue. We do it a lot like barefoot on the wrestling mats that we have in the gym. So we're. Yeah, like you said, working on the arch and the feet and that sort of stuff. So it is, it is a small piece. We don't do a ton of it. But that's the way that I think about it. Rather than like max effort, neurological adaptation that I think most people think about when they're doing plyometrics, like I think about it from high volume, long duration to try and create more of a structural adaptation within the joint, the tendons, the connective tissue.

Yeah. Basically for me, I think plyometrics can be used sort of the same as how you would sprint or play your sport compared to training. I think when we talked about at in Clearwater, I remember men bench Ben mentioning when you gain structural balance, when you work on the basics more, when you gain more mobility, you almost feel a pump when you do plyometrics in, you know, your tent, like around the, the muscles and that surround the tendon and the joint. And I think that that's always the goal to get to. So like, for example, if I were to go sprint this week, I would always do some bounding, some, some single leg bounds, you know, working on, just in the feet, no shoes, you know that. I think if I can get a pump, then that's, that's all I'm looking for. You know, just because I know that my body's working correctly and I'm not after I'm done with the plyos, I'm not having any sort of tweaker like pain in areas. If I can get to that level. I think that that's what plyos is a good, a good Standard to work towards.

Yeah, I think that's actually how. How Ben talks about using them as well. Talking about going through the archives, I was literally watching a video right before we, we got on here of most people talk about like think about doing plyos. When you're the very beginning of the workout, you're freshest again because they're chasing like that neurological output piece. And he talks about doing them like almost to the point of fatigue where like the muscles are pumped as much as we can so we can get into the joints and the tendons as much as possible. So he was doing like dense strength or squats like on the slant board, like 10 by 10 and then doing super like depth jumps like in between. So like once we can get a pump to the muscle and stuff like that, everything is warm as we can. Then going to do depth jumps and that sort of thing. So I just, that that the way you're thinking about things is, is probably more how I think about them as well.

There's a. Yeah. Question there. Around the perineal muscles for ankle stability, do they need to be trained in isolation, which is kind of where ATG was going at one stage or it went at one stage with the single foot tibialis raised device and, and strapping the dumbbells your foot and that sort of thing around ankle sprains. Does anyone have. Yeah. What are your thoughts on trying to isolate the lateral ankle muscles? Too soft? I don't know. Yes, it's good.

Yeah, I don't know that isolate is the right, right thing that you necessarily want to do. I mean, I'm not a doctor, so here, go see a doctor if you need to. But I mean there's value to sort of isolating the ankle and putting more slower loading into there like the dumbbell circles with the, you take a floss band, wrap the dumbbell to your foot and go in the circles real slow at the end range. Like it'll. That'll light up your perennial peronios, no problem. And then you can do.

But is that, is that really going to make a difference? Like that's, that's kind of the question. Like from my perspective, you probably don't need to focus on those muscles. If you're doing heavy step ups, if you're doing some barefoot soccer, if you're doing some barefoot sprinting, if you're, you're using the system, if you're doing single leg KOT calf raises and such, they're kind of stabilizers within that that they are going to be Works like you don't necessarily have to push the boundaries with them laterally.

But yeah, it's more, I do think that is more of like a return to return to play sort of thing. Like if you have a bad ankle sprain or you whatever, you mess up your frontal tendon somehow. Like that can be before you start putting in the higher loading, fast loading. Like that could be a place to start. And then obviously don't keep it forever. Like I'm sure Zach and Justin don't use like dumbbell ankle circles with any healthy athlete. But if that's something you specifically need, then it like it is possible that something like that can help or even like a heavy, heavy ISO, like heal floating ISO or just like an overcoming like it'll, it'll load that area as well. I, I agree with you and that it's a stabilizer and the most 98% of people don't need to do anything specific for it. Like it'll come with other exercises, but there are cases where it's like you need to find a way to slowly load the muscles around the ankle.

Yeah, I had a conversation with Ben Claire Feed about this and I think my, my mindset on it and my view on it is sort of the same as his. It's more of treated as a light accessory. And he also mentioned, you know, like, like what you said, Keegan. If you do slow, little heavier sled, you're still getting that same responses to what you would get from the perennial. You're still working it. You're still working with the KLT Cafe, still working with the fhl. Especially if you do single leg, try.

To.

Correct those imbalances. And I think if you can get the same force output in each leg, I think that's all you really want, at least from an athlete's perspective. I mean in dealing with an injury, I think with, you know, strapping the dumbbell to the foot, again, it's just a light accessory, but it can be done.

Wade is just set up. He had ATG Nebraska, one of the first guys to jump on the idea of an ATG gym. Well, most people even knew what ATG was. He's now set up in Texas and we haven't connected for a little while, but I know Wade's gone super deep on everything that we've been discussing here today. The start was because you came in a little bit later way. The start was a discussion around for most people, getting pain free, being able to fully exert yourself in your sport, having some long range ability These kind of things are the, the foundation that we're looking for with atg and oftentimes we will get that. Implementing the ATG training and that's probably like 90, 95 of the battle for a lot of, a lot of people, potentially even a lot of professional athletes, guys are talking about that, they're working with some Premier League soccer players and high level guys and they're still seeing that, that's like the big rocks. And then we're sort of discussing, okay, well, but what, what is there beyond that? What's the other 2%, 5%? And, and I know you're a deep explorer and you might have a different opinion around, you know, ATG as kind of a big rocks component. Where are you at currently with your, your philosophy on the, the ATG system and where it fits into to what you're doing there in Texas?

Yeah, thanks. Say, good to see some of you guys again. It's been a while. You know, I, it's still, I would consider it a bedrock of what we do here. And I, you know, most of you, if you know me, you know, I'm, I just kind of say it how I think it and people can take it, however. But you know, it's the bedrock of our programming. I mean, I think it's severely lacking in the area of speed and I think it's severely lacking the area of neurology. So, you know, I'm very, I don't think it's, I don't think there is a fix, I don't think there is a one way that checks all the boxes, you know, so I'm the type of person that wants to learn from who I think is best in the world at what they do and then see if it fits, you know, my clientele, my vision. And then like those of us that are, that train people for a living, you know, you just develop your own, your own way in your own niche and whatnot. So I mean, I've contracted with a speed company because I think I'm an 8 out of 10 in speed and I want to be a 10 out of 10. Right. And really it's just because they, they're going to give me a, they've given me a work for speed and then the neurological piece. I think a lot of people, when they talk neurological, they're thinking of exercise adaptations. And I, you know, am skilled in some ways that work through the brain to actually unlock your body's ability to move. So a lot of this, we're going to do this exercise over and over until we're blue in the face to get this range or I can probably get that range in five or ten seconds with you. And you can keep plowing away for eight to 10 months at it if you want. But it's really your brain that's stopping you. It's not your body's ability to, to ex. Get in these positions. Like I fixed decades and decades of immobility and literally less than a minute. So that piece is really powerful. I learned what I consider a silly little warm up when I was a head football coach, American football coach, that replaced stretching for us. And we got rid of all of our soft tissue injuries with a five minute neurological warmup. And then I just kept learning more and more things to now where, shoot, I've got rid of people's vertigo, I've got people's smell back from having Covid and not being able to smell for a year and like just second necks and knees and backs and all kinds of immobility. So what we really do is just kind of bring the brain up to the body and then we can go get better together. Right. I still train athletes for a living, but just have the ability to basically interview your central nervous system and find out the, the joints that are not in agreement with the load that they're on or the, you know, when your foot hits the ground, a lot of crap happens, right? And if you're. We talk about the foot stuff and I like it too. We're a barefoot gym. I would call us if we had to, you know. But when your foot hits the ground, if it's not, that's not a good response up the chain, then other things aren't going to work appropriately. And it doesn't always have to present itself with pain, right. It's just a decision, joint movement that the brain doesn't like and we can make it feel safe with that movement. Then you just become a more efficient mover, more efficient athlete. So it helps our numbers go up, it helps people just move better and just kind of level that up. So it's really cool. So yeah, I mean I wouldn't still be in the community if I didn't think there's a lot of value to it. But it's, it's, it's not the only thing I do. I just, I like to learn and I like to try things and you know, I'm, I don't back squat in my gym anymore. We don't do Olympic lifting in my gym, you know, and that's so I feel like there's better, safer modalities for my clientele. Now some of our people that are ready, we will. I'm not against any movement in particular. It's just what's the outcome? I want fast, explosive athletes. I don't anybody has yet to show me actual proof that a heavy back squat correlates to athleticism. So that's just where I fall on that. And the people that I study and respect the most would share the same sentiments. That doesn't mean we don't squat. I just don't need to put it, I don't need to put a load on somebody's, you know, lumbar load on someone that's not ready for it yet. So we do a lot of landmine squats. We go still get full range on our squats and do kind of different things and, but it's always a working document. I think that's what's important. You know, you just, you don't get so overly dogmatic towards one way where you close. Because I've considered things now that I used to shun and I've shunned things now that I used to consider. Right. So it's really just about continuing to learn and, and just take in what fits you and, and leave the rest. And if you've got time to go address it then, then go, go learn about it. Right. And go be good at it.

That's, you know, you've seen, we've seen that with Ben as well over the time. Like he was doing drop catch rdls he had in his program. You have to max out your sprinting once a week. Like there's different experiments that have been there over the time and that's, that's in my opinion and perspective like we should all be doing that. We should all be testing. Okay, well what, what is going to make these people if, if your goal of your gym is to have athletes get faster and get selected. I know in the, in the states it's a huge thing to run fast 40s and such if you're going to get high, you know, college, college scholarships and get drafted into the pros and such. So yeah, I love the, what you brought to the conversation there. Wade around the, the speed piece and the neurology. I know Matthew Scar just went recently and did his neurology sort of one of, one of the courses and Keith who was there in, at the recent ATG event that I went to in Florida, Keith Alpert also was sharing a lot of neurology and I know there's different systems within that as well. And yeah, we have to, we should continue to explore and the fun is actually in the continued exploration. And when we get to the point of like it's all done, there's nothing else to learn, you could pretty much have to quit as a coach, I think when you get to that point or it's at least not. Wouldn't be any fun to me to be sort of at that position of yet. It's all done, it's all organized, there's nothing left to answer. What are you looking to pick up in the speed realm? Is it having athletes, you know, really nail those speed tests or is it that they're going to be faster within, you know, sporting on the, in athletics or in the basketball, American football, you know, is that what the focus is, is for or where are you, where are you looking to pick up ground there? And what are you, what are you, what are you getting?

Yeah, great question. For me, speed is the, the tide that rises all boats. So no matter what game you're in, you're going to be better if you're faster. And so what we can, we'll go out and we'll have our camps and our assessments and we'll do, we'll. Time flies and some tens and some 20s and different percentages of your body weight resisted starts with, with sled pulls and whatnot. And we can calculate that and basically what we're doing through our universal speed rating agreement with this company and it's Spelman Performance. He's, he's a combine trainer. If you know speed, you probably know Les Spellman, but he's a, he's a Tony hauler, feed the cats guy. And so that's the tree that I basically have attached to the last five or so years and really helped us as a football program cut our injuries out and just got us faster as a team. So everybody knows that's probably the greatest stimulus you can do is a max effort sprint. So what we're able to do with that data, plug it into their framework and this is really what I'm paying them for because I've been doing the same drills as them and but you plug the data into their framework and it kind of, kind of spit out, well, okay, this guy needs to work on acceleration. Here's a six week acceleration program that can help focus on that where you might be a little lacking or this person needs to work on max velocity more and whatnot. So like I said, it's really for us a framework where we can Provide a tangible product for each individual client as they, as they need or as they see fit. You know and I've got you know, young elementary kids up through collegiate athletes in here right now. So to each their own. Right. But if they really want to go attack that then you know it's going to help my college shortstop as well as well it's going to help my 4th grade youth football player too. Right. So just gives us a framework. So that's what we're after is just to have say hey this is here at Wizard Performance. This is how we do speed. Right. And so we just don't talk about it like here's how we implement it basically is what, what we're after with that.

How do you, how much speed do you do in season and how do you, how do you kind of implement it for you?

Everybody I work with is always in season. So there's no really off season unless it's I guess the higher level people. I think you ought to, you need to max. I mean research data will tell you you need to sprint at least every 72 hours. Are going to start going backwards on it. So I coach a youth football team. We're gonna, we're gonna start every practice because we're practiced twice a week. We're gonna make sure we sprint at the beginning of every practice after we warm up. Right. Because I want that stimulus I started. We're, we're timing things at practice. So I'm gonna running an experiment and we're gonna see if we can get faster by the end of the season. Right. So that's the goal. You really shouldn't and I don't think, I don't think anyone should drop their speed work in season. I think we do a lot of stupid conditioning where we just run people hard and we make them tired and slow and more injury prone. But we don't actually get that adaptation. So yeah, I wouldn't about every three times a week. If you're a track athlete or whatever your, your third day would be the competition day or whatnot. But yeah, you need to sprint three times a week. I don't care what season it is.

Wasn't some of the feed the cat stuff less frequent than that?

No, that's about it.

That's the deal.

All right.

So yeah, my experience with the like I like to do maximal accelerations and maximal single effort jumping, you know and I wouldn't say my goal was to have the fastest. It's not single mindedly to have the fastest athletes and the fastest team. Like when you work with a professional outfit, like if you have your top players on the field most then that if you have a decent roster, that's probably the most important thing you can do. So there's like a balance of, of goals and responsibilities and with adults as well, it's potentially different. You know, with senior athletes, it's potentially, potentially different. You go into a new organization, you change the stimulus significantly and you upset the senior players and the coach. Like, that's, you know, that's, that's as long as it lasts. Like it's different with a private facility and doing what you're doing to an extent. But I, I'm, I definitely love, you know, I love maximal efforts and we always had maximal efforts in the program each week. And you know, for me some of that with the rugby was with our weightlifting. It was with our vertical jump, counter movement jump and it was mostly with, also with accelerations and then whether they got top speed stimulus. A lot of players never actually get anywhere close to top speed within a game. Certain positions would sometimes, but there's obviously different roles. Like, would you have a lineman max out their speed three times a week?

Absolutely.

Okay, that's interesting. It's interesting philosophy, but it's not necessarily essential for someone to be a successful lineman. Like, I wouldn't say. If you went and interviewed all the linemen in the league, how many of them do you think would have, would have done that?

This ones are the highest picks in the draft for sure.

They're going to get, yeah, the speed power is always going to get picked and it's super valuable. It's how you get there and then how, how, yeah, how you maintain it. Like it's good. It's a good conversation. We should have a whole deep dive discussion around the role of maximum speed and what makes speed power athletes, you know, more competitive. I personally value the acceleration more than the top speed and I know there's a big push of like top speeds everything and acceleration isn't, you know, you only need to change top speed and your acceleration will be good. I went at it from the other angle and we, you know, we won. We did really well. And that's not the only qualification. But yeah, there's some pretty compelling experiences around that. And I know there are coaches who've had that philosophy that acceleration is, is king. But yeah, we should have another discussion. I think it'd be cool to have like a pure speed discussion. Maybe you want to have last thoughts on that and then we'll go back to the other guys to finish up.

Yeah, I don't think acceleration is any less, I think it's, it's just that component like if you're not working that you're not going to hit max velocity. Right. Like, you can't ignore that. So to your point. Absolutely. It's, it's every bit as you know, depending on how you divide it. Two tiered or three tiered approach to, to speed in general. Like you. Absolutely. We're constantly working on acceleration. But yeah, I think there's the, the cool part is you look into speed reserve because you know, if you look into a game and you know, if you're fresh and fast and you can still be at 80% in the fourth period or fourth quarter, whatever you're playing. The other team came in, came in and started at 80 and they're now at 60. You're still the fastest players in the, at the end of the game, even though your tank's down a little bit, theirs is lower because they've been doing gassers and stupid all the time.

So, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm 100 with you on that. And we, we would, would have done the least conditioning of any team. We were like, by far, we looked the fittest and I think it's exactly what you're talking about. And I think the acceleration efficiency meant we were getting to the place before they were more easily than they were getting there. If I had a better technology in terms of actually understanding Nordics, understanding how to prepare the hamstrings, I probably would have done more long range, more top speed, strength. I think I was too scared of having guys pull hamstrings because it's such a shitty injury. And, and we did have, you know, like, we probably had three or four over the four years that I worked with the pro teams. And you know, there was one of the reserve players who wasn't playing, had like a massive one that sort of almost needed a surgery and that was like, okay, how where does this fit in? But I, I don't think I would have to be as tentative about that. And I was tentative about plyometrics as well because it's like if I piss someone's tendons off, I don't know how to fix it. So therefore I'm not going to do, you know, any, not going to push that. We're going to do some skipping, we're going to do some little stuff, but we're not going to push this. Because at that time like I was, yeah, that was the tools that I had. So it's interesting to sort of think about how having better tools allows you to even push the top end of your program forward. Has that happened for you as well, Wade? Like, I know you've been on this journey for, for a while. Like, do you feel more courage to go after top performance because you have tools to prevent fix things?

Yeah. I mean, I was the typical 500 pound squatter in college that, you know, and then I got on a nordic board at age 35 and I couldn't go 6 inches before I fell. Right. And then it's like, oh, wow, I was really imbalanced and had a hamstring injury. Right. So I think, yeah, train, that's huge. And to your point, a lot of people are afraid to max velocity train for the reasons that you just cited. But then we go out and we ask that stimulus in the game and they're not ready for it and they end up with cold hands ring in the game. Right. So it's like you got to work your way to it. But I think being afraid of it is more risky than actually doing it because you're gonna. Everybody's gonna, they're gonna exert that level of stimulus when they compete. And if they haven't prepped for it, but why do we expect their bodies to be able to handle it? Right.

There's some, there's some interesting views on the top speed and acceleration from people. Like, I think it's XP who down in Florida that, I mean, they've got the fastest combine guys in all of the positions. Pretty much some of the fastest guys ever that talk about like, yeah, as soon as we're done with the 40, like that's when we kind of stop with the speed works that they don't sprint, but then they focus more on the change of direction. They do things a little differently. I haven't done as much speed training as you have, so not as qualified to talk about it. But it's interesting to see that there's both sides and the people, they get really, really good results in the 40 that kind of stop working and see people kind of get stuck in the mud change of directions the faster they get in the 40. I mean, I'm not an expert on their stuff. I'm not an expert on Tony Holiday stuff either. So just, just different points of view on it that are interesting to me. But yeah, I'm. I'm on the team of that you do need to hit the speed. Like I, I've got a young high school soccer team I'll be working with in the fall. It's like we're gonna do less conditioning than they've probably ever done and we're gonna sprint fairly often and we're going to do strength work on the field. Not enough to really interfere with the play, but like enough to keep them healthy, enough to keep them fast, enough to not make them want to throw up for running sprints.

Right, Right. Yeah, that's good. That's good talk for sure.

Yeah. If you're up for it, we'll do it. Let's do a speed podcast sometime soon. We'll, I'll put up to booking if you're up for it, but any thoughts there? Finishing up on any, any of what we've been speaking about there today, Zach or Justin?

I mean, you covered a lot of ground, changed courses quite a lot there. I think there's, it's interesting all the stuff that, that Wade's gotten into and that sort of stuff like those, those guys. I've gone down that rabbit hole not as much as he has for sure, but it's definitely a lot of things there that make a lot of sense. Like the idea that the. If top speed work, like if sprinting is like the, the most stressful, the most powerful stimulus that there is, then finding ways to train that more frequently, like the adaptation that you get from that for, for everything else, that makes a lot of sense too. Um, I haven't found ways to like train it as effectively or program it as effectively. So that's like, I tend to still use more of the, the strength based like kind of ATG work, but at the end of the day, I mean even kind of going on a little bit of a tangent like going to the, the Soranex summer strong event like this summer and stuff like that, we had some of the top strength coaches from different schools, like University of Georgia football strength coach who just won back to back like national championships, and all these people talking about philosophies and way they train and culture and different things like that. And one of my biggest takeaways from listening to some of the best strength coaches like in the country is that what you do doesn't matter as much as how you do it. And so a lot of these, like just creating that culture and that environment, like whatever it is that you're going to do, it's very easy for us as coaches to get, get bogged down into like, man, what's, what's the perfect program, the perfect sets and reps, the perfect, like this, that and the other. But at the end of the day, if you can create more of that. That environment or that culture of just training hard, training, well, you're probably going to go farther than all of the kind of like the pencil neck coaches, as Poliquin used to call them, that are just like always focused on. On the perfect little program. The minutiae of every little detail, execution of execution at a high level might, Might trump everything.

Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah. And a lot of people that I like to follow, like, they, they're not even on board with progressive overload because they're like, that's cute on paper. And then the actual human being comes in and they're. They're not fresh, they're not. They're stressed, they're this, they're that. And then your little perfect program goes to. Because your progressive overload mindset says, we got to do this percentage this day, this, this, this. And you just got a kid that slept three hours and his girlfriend broke up with him the night before and you want to. Nope, you're at 85 today. That ain't gonna happen. You know what I mean? So sometimes it's easy to. To out coach your clientele and sometimes that simple does win, man. That's the thing. We get too complex sometimes and just simple does win. So, yeah, run fast, jump high, lift heavy. Let's go. All right.

Yeah. Just to finish off that, I think, you know, being part of a big Division 1 program and learning from ATG and learning from some of the stuff you're saying. Wade, I think just regardless of whatever movements you're doing, if your clients or your athletes or your team is, Is bought in and you know, you can solve some of their issues, I think that's just. You're gonna find results along the way. And I don't think. Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with really any movements as long as they're with proper form. And you know, you're getting that culture, that, that buy in. I think the results would just come.

Yeah, absolutely. That's. That probably should supersede any of the conversations. Like people want to come. Do they want to try? Do they want to. Yeah, put the work in. And, and actually, because I don't know what, what y' all are seeing in your neighborhoods, but I don't see a lot of people that actually want to actually work. You know, they like the idea of it, but when it comes down to it, you know, I got Division 1 softball player and she's weak. And as Crap. She's got so much stronger in the last six weeks with me. But because they don't take it seriously in the high school, like a lot of girls just ignored at the same time, and then they're just like, oh, my gosh, you're a D1 athlete and you have so much improving to do. This is going to be fun, right? So.

But yeah, that was, that was, I guess, I mean, I didn't go to a big Division 1 school and play, but I went to Bryant University in Rhode island and we're in like the FCS level. And, you know, it was, it was good. You know, I thought I was really gonna put, like, really try and get some, you know, try and get above these guys. I feel like they were, they were higher than me and I got there and I felt like I was like the strongest, like, hardest working kid there. And I did not believe that going in. And it's kind of, it's kind of crazy, like, you know, what natural abilities can take you, and then you get there and everybody's at that natural ability. And then you got to figure out what works to progress you, to keep you on the field, to keep you staying healthy, because that's what really matters, you know?

Yeah, you got to be available. It's your best ability, is your availability. So.

It'S a good one. It's a good one to finish on. Yeah. 100. You gotta, if the coach has gotta love the program, I think that's a nice point to finish on is that if the coach loves the program, that's a decent part of the success, because if you're excited about it, then you're going to be able to transfer that energy, and that energy transfer is a big part of your success as a coach. I still, you know, for me, it matters a lot what you program and how you, you know, how you program it, what movements you select and all of those factors, how much of it you do, it definitely matters. But if you're not in love with it, if you're not excited about it, then it's, it's not going to be a great day. So the goal of these conversations is to continue to fuel that inquisitive nature and keep solving this stuff. You know, to play around with it yourself is a big part of it as well. I encourage any coach who's listening, you know, take yourself more seriously as an athlete and you'll understand more intuitively what, what is actually going on and how it all works. I think that is often under undervalued Underestimated as well, in the education system in particular. But, yeah, get after yourself and transfer as much positive energy towards the athletes that you're working with, with whatever it is that you've decided to do. A lot of what I've done and the conversation with atg, it's, how do we simplify this? Like, that is what ATG has done in my mind. It's. It's given a much simpler framework for how to build someone an athletic base. Dense strength is very simple. We're looking for the. For the simplest version. I think Wade's talking about potentially the simplest version of how to become very fast through. Through sprinting, and that that tends to be closer to the truth. As much as there is depth in these conversations and you might feel like that's a contradiction, it really is. At the heart of it is like, how do we get back to the. To the core of this thing and sometimes this. To problem solve? When something's not going right, there's a deeper conversation. But if that's the centerpiece of do stuff that we really enjoy and that we believe in and trend towards simplicity as much as we can, I think that's a great place to kind of end this discussion. Those who tuned in on the YouTube and ask questions and stuff, great to have you on. If you listen back to the recording and you want to ask more questions, I'm going to jump in and answer those in the comments. Maybe some of the guys from the conversation will as well. I'll put some links up to their Instagrams and YouTube channels as well. And yeah, let us know if you want us to cover maybe the speed stuff as the next thing, or maybe more about optimizing the training environment, how to get super enthusiastic about. About the work that you're doing or any of the other topics that jumped that came up there today. Yeah. Thank you, man, for. For joining me for this conversation. It's one that I. One that I love having. So. Yeah, thank you very much and have a great rest of the day.

Appreciate it. Good to see you guys.

Good to hear you too, man.

Thanks, sir.

Thanks, team, huh?