104. Lewis Howes: Author of The Greatness Mindset

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.

In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview author of *The Greatness Mindset*, Lewis Howes. You will learn all about Lewis's journey into greatness, how to find and create meaning in your life, the actionable steps you can take to achieve greatness, and how to find forgiveness and healing in your own life. Lewis is a world-renowned podcast host of *The School of Greatness*, which, if you haven't listened to yet, go and do it after this episode. He is also an author of multiple bestselling books. A former pro athlete, leader, keynote speaker, high-performance business coach, entrepreneur, and the list goes on. He is one of my favorite people, and if you feel stuck or lost in life, this episode is going to help you in a big way. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Lewis Howes.

Well, Lewis, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast, man.

Good to see you. Good to see you as well. Appreciate it.

You are very hospitable. We feel great. We're playing basketball. We're having fun. We're talking about business.

Yeah, man.

Yeah.

Anything I could do to support and serve, let me know.

Yeah. Well, this show is going to help. So you have a new book coming out in March, The Greatness Mindset. Yeah. And in the beginning, you kick off the book, you say, I'm 23. I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. I'm broke as a joke. And I think that's a very relatable way to kick off the book. Is that why you decided to do it?

Is that why I started to do the book?

Is that why you decided to kick off the book with that story?

I just think the idea is how can— listen, I think when people see me, if they know who I am when they pick up the book and they see me, they're gonna have a judgment of me. If they look at me, if they see my brand online, if they, you know, they're gonna have an image of who I am and think whatever they wanna think. And so I just wanna let people know, okay, there was a point in time, and many different points in time where I've struggled, felt stuck, been in breakdowns, things like that, and I've had to figure out how to get unstuck. And so I wanted to make it as easy as possible to break down any barriers to entry for what they're about to learn. And so that's why I start that story.

Okay, so somebody coming into the book who's experiencing some version of that story, feels like, okay, I can relate to this guy who's now got almost a billion downloads on his podcast and everything else.

Okay.

Right, right. Yeah, I get it. And then you go right into the story about football. So—

Well, 'cause here's the thing, most people are stuck. So it's not even about being relatable to where I was, but most people feel stuck in some way in their life. Like we were just talking to Luke about, you know, I'm not sure where I wanna move to next. I wanna move somewhere. I feel like it's good where I live, but I also feel like I'm supposed to go somewhere. What am I supposed to do, right? So people feel stuck in a relationship, they feel stuck in their business, they might feel like, I don't know how to break through to the next level, where I wanna live, I'm going through transition from football to life. There's this stuckness or uncertainty of where to go next. And I think anyone can relate to that. And so the goal is to create a process. and a system with science and a step-by-step way of how to find the path and then how to act accordingly.

Man, I just, I love that because like, I think that's, you're one of my favorite people and I think that's like a big— You're welcome.

Thank you, man.

But really, I like, you really are. I've looked up to you for quite some time and I love how, I don't know, you're just so willing to share and you're so vulnerable about The reality, because we see—I mean, obviously we know—we see on—we see all the highlights Instagram. We see where you're at today. We see where all these other big people they're at today, but we don't really see the journey. And a lot of people still—I mean, even to this day, like a lot of people don't share that whole journey. And like you said, like people can't—I like for me, like there's like oh, I can't relate to a guy who's making $100 million a year because you know I might be stuck at $100K a year. It's like well, $100 million doesn't even seem. Fathomable. So it's really awesome, especially like you start off the book that way. It's like, listen, I was stuck too. I was stuck here. I was on my sister's couch.

Like, yeah.

And there's also different times in the last 10 years where I felt stuck or in transition or in breakdown, whether it be in my business, in a relationship, in my health journey, with my finances. So even if it looks like you've got certain things figured out, it doesn't mean everything is figured out. And there's always a new season of life where we've got to transition. Again, all of you are in some type of transition right now in some area of your life, whether it be you're getting married, you're having kids, you want to move, you're transitioning careers, you're not sure if you want to stay in the career you're in or do come join these guys. Whatever it is, you're like, you're in a transition pretty frequently. And you guys all play sports. There's seasons, you know, and there's seasons of life and there's seasons in sports and business and health. And for me, it's understanding what season we're in and realizing, are we in the regular season? Are we in the playoffs? Are we in the postseason? You know, what season are we in? Are we even in a reflection season to see if we want to play this game again next year? That's what happened with you last 2 years. I get to reflect. Do I still want this vision, this mission? And if not, what do I want to create next for my life? And that's why in the beginning I really start with From 10 years of interviews, almost 1,400 episodes, and some of the world's greatest minds, athletes, leaders of all walks of life, the common theme that the greats have where they also have fulfillment is that they are very clear on their mission and their vision. A lack of clarity is very challenging even if you have money, success, and fame. But a lack of clarity still makes you like unsettled inside, makes you rattled sometimes, makes you feel like, well, what am I really doing? And so getting very clear in one sentence what your mission is for this season of life. When I was on my sister's couch, I was thinking my mission is to make enough money to get off my sister's couch. That was like, that was it. I couldn't think beyond that season. And so I did everything I could to make enough money to get an apartment. Right, for $495. Then it was maintaining that season. Can I make sure I can stay in this? Okay, what's beyond this? And as you graduate school, graduate sports, graduate businesses and life relationships, and go to the next level, you've got to reevaluate. Okay, what's the new mission? And a lot of people don't have step 1, which is getting very, very clear on their meaningful mission. This is not a mission And there's a difference between success and greatness. All I wanted was success growing up. I wanted to accomplish my goals and dreams, and I became very good at being disciplined, committed, finding a team, showing up, working hard, and accomplishing those. But when I would accomplish it, it almost still didn't feel like it was enough. I didn't feel satisfied, and I almost felt angry when when I would accomplish these goals and dreams. And I realized that I was— that success by itself is selfish. And I was chasing success to make me look good, to make me feel like I'm accomplished, to make me be successful and celebrated by others. And that does not work long-term. And that's when I started to study greatness 10 years ago and realized that greatness is about pursuing your goals and dreams Also in the service of other people while empowering and lifting others up and being a positive force for good with those individuals. It doesn't mean you have to drag people with you, but you can just be generous with your time, your energy, your words, and your thoughtfulness and your love. And when we lean more into greatness, which is about, yes, I want to be accomplished and accomplish my goals and dreams. But make sure everyone else around me succeeds as well. It's more renewable energy. It's more fulfilling. And I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong. They're clear on their goals and dreams. A lot of people aren't even clear on that. But when they are, it's about them as opposed to about us. And that's why meaningful mission is the first step in your pursuit of greatness and figuring out what season you're in for that mission. But most people in one sentence do not know what their meaningful mission is. And if you're not 100% clear of where you're going, you'll never get there.

I think what's so relatable about that first step is you don't have to have this massive grand vision to kick things off. Like, if you're on your sister's couch, your mission is just to get off of the couch because that is the stepping stone that will enable you to do more.

Yeah. And if you're in survival mode and stress mode, you don't have— you can't think about saving the world, you know, curing cancer or some crazy, like, thing that you're supposed to do. You're just thinking about how do I take care of myself and survive and get beyond a certain point? How do I take care of my fiancée, my kids, my friends, my family? How do I just take care of me first? And I think that's step one. When we're in a transition, make sure we're taking care of our health, our money, our relationships first. Then you can start to get clear on what we want with that meaningful mission. But most people have no clue what they want in the first place. And that's just hard because if you don't know where you're going, you cannot get there.

That's been such a, it's been such a common theme that I've seen like from so many people that we've talked to. It's like you have to be clear on where you're going. You have to be clear on where you're going. You have to have a vision for the future. And I like how what Nick just said, he was like, you know, you're like backing it up a few levels. It's like, okay, don't worry about curing the cancer right now. Just worry about getting off the couch first. And it's like, There's almost like there's levels to it. So with that, do you think that that is something that can just ever change?

I think it has to change. I mean, for, you know, and there might be a season of I don't know what I want and I'm just gonna try stuff out and that's okay. I'm not gonna have a direction. I'm gonna just try things, relax. I'm gonna recover. You know, Tom Brady maybe didn't know what he was gonna do before he retired for the second time. He just took a couple weeks. And said, I don't know what I want. Let me reflect on it. Most people take months and years of that space. He took a couple weeks and decided. But I think it's okay to have a season as well of just, I'm not sure. I'm in discovery. I'm reconnecting to myself and taking time to recover and reflect until it becomes clear. And I think that's great as well. We don't always have to know when we're in transition, but I think it's important to eventually— and that could be your mission. My mission right now is to be in the unknown. But at least you're clear, as opposed to I'm not sure what I want. It's like just be clear on the season you're in, and then you can move beyond it.

Yeah, because I feel like that can give you anxiety too. Exactly.

Like if you're like, oh, I don't want to accept the season you're in, you know what I mean? Accept that you're in a recovery phase. Accept you're retraining. You're developing new skills. You're overcoming fear phase. Life is going to give us these moments. You know when you become when you get married, it's a new season. You got to overcome different things. When you have kids, we got to overcome different things. When Kids leave the home. We, we're a new identity. We're a new season. How do we manage that? Businesses come and go. Careers come and go. People come and go. So, we're always in new seasons of rediscovering and aligning to our mission.

There was a season that you highlighted in the beginning of the book, which was improving communication. And you highlighted Toastmasters. And that was so relatable for me because when I was younger, I had a lot of social anxiety. I cared way too much about what other people thought. I couldn't present effectively in front of a classroom, as an example. And so I took public speaking classes and went to Toastmasters, and now I've been on a couple of stages. So do you have any suggestions for people in the audience who know that they could improve their communication skills, but they don't know what the next step might be?

Well, I mean, for me, Toastmasters is the thing that supported me, and it sounds like you as well. I don't know another organization that really helps the way they do. I think it's like $100 a year or something, like nothing. And it's a safe environment to practice. So if you, if you want to find a coach or find other programs, great. But for me, having a place to go every single week to practice where you're in a safe environment to mess up and you're not going to be made fun of, where there's curriculum that teaches you how to progress and give you skills, I think they're a great opportunity for that. I think a lot of people just don't commit to the time of doing it. Like anything. And I committed, I said I'm gonna do this for 1 year, every single week I showed up and I said I'm gonna speak every week, even if it's for 60 seconds, table topics. And it was always nerve-wracking until I got more and more comfortable. But I think having the mentality of I'm gonna go all in on whatever fear I have, if it's communication or any fear, I talk about creating a fear list in the book. And for some people, maybe Luke was a star communicating in front of everyone, right? He could stand up in an audience and speak Effectively, but for us we couldn't do that. So maybe his fear is something else, and whatever the fear is, write them all down and start going all in on them. And then you start to become fearless. You start to develop incredible confidence and and peace about who you are in your identity when you overcome the things that you're afraid of. So that was another thing I did when I ended football career was like I was afraid of a lot of things. I leaned on my athletic talents. to give me validation and self-worth. But now that my athletic talents, I couldn't lean on them anymore, who am I? How can I get validation? How can anyone accept me, like me, appreciate me, want to hang out with me? How could anyone love me if I can't use the thing that got me here anymore, my skill set as an athlete? So I had to really go through a period of, of kind of grieving and letting go of the old identity and saying, how can I use that in the future, the things I learned from athletics, but people aren't gonna watch me play sports anymore to get validated. Now I have a list of insecurities and fears that I'm afraid to do in front of people. I've gotta start going all in.

What's on that list?

Toastmasters was number one, dancing in front of others was number two. Like, I was terrified of dancing, and salsa dancing specifically, because it's a Latin culture and it's different, Different language and different energy and different communities from the culture I grew up in. And so I said, okay, I'm afraid of dance. Latin dance is even scarier 'cause it's not even from my world, right? And I remember going to a salsa club in my mid, like early to mid-20s after football was done and so intimidated just watching. people on the dance floor, and I sat in the corner, but I was like mesmerized by the energy and the passion and the connection people had and the fun that they were having. But I was like, there's no way I could ever do this myself. I would go almost every week for 3 months and watch. I was the creepy guy in the corner watching as everyone else is dancing, as everyone else is dancing. Well, I wasn't that creepy. I was just like talking to people and having fun and whatever, but— And salsa dancing is a different vibe. It's not like, it's a community where people come together and you all kind of dance and you all like have fun together. It's not like people are going there to hook up or like a nightclub. It's a different type, it's more of an artistic expression when you go to a salsa club. And so I would go and girls would always try to get me to come and dance with them and I was like, no, I don't want to embarrass you. I don't want to make you look bad, because I had no clue what I was doing. It was like trying to speak another language you've never spoken. and them trying to have a fluent conversation with you in front of everyone watching you. That's kind of what it felt like. It was like, you're asking me to come speak another language that I have no clue what you're saying to me, and you want me to have a full conversation with you in your language while everyone is staring at me. No thank you. That's what it felt like, and I knew that that fear would cripple me. And salsa dancing just became an exercise, a tool. It could have been any type of dancing, right? But this just became an exercise to help me overcome the fear of embarrassment, judgment, which was my biggest fear. Of the 3 fears that hold us back from our greatness, judgment was my biggest one. And I said, I got to do things where I'm afraid of being judged over and over and over again until it's no longer a fear. Public speaking was one, salsa dancing was another. 2 extremes that I went all in on. And I started doing salsa dancing and taking classes and taking group classes, one-on-one. I started obsessing about it like I did with Toastmasters, kind of at the same time. And it took me about, I don't know, 3 and a half, 4 months of fumbling and humiliating myself, but going all in. Until I felt like, oh, I'm actually decent average, right? I can dance semi-average, right? I'm still thinking and questioning it, but I can keep up. And then maybe a year later, it was like I was fluent. I started traveling the world. I think I've been to like 15 different countries, to the top cities where salsa dancing occurs, and have danced with people all over the world.

Wow.

And I didn't even speak the language, but I could speak the language of salsa. And so this was just another thing I did early on to help me overcome the fear of judgment, which is one of the 3 fears we talk about in the book.

I'm so curious, like, it seems like at a pretty young age you understood that you needed to overcome fears. It took me way too embarrassingly long to figure that out, that, oh, Embracing this fear, embracing this discomfort is actually a part of growth instead of just avoiding it. So did you have, at the time, did you have mentors? Did you have coaches that told you, like, how did you figure that out?

Yeah, I mean, for me it was all about having the right mentors and guides. And I think the thing I learned from sports was in order to be successful in athletics, I had to have a great coach. Like, in order to accomplish my goals, there's no way I could do it on my own. And you learn this from, you know, great athletes like Kobe and Michael and LeBron. When they got to the championship level, they had coaches that got them there. When they achieved the first championship, they didn't say, thanks, Coach, for getting me here. I'm done. I don't need a coach anymore. They actually got more coaches to support them in other areas of their game. And I think a lot of us should think about hiring coaches or finding a personal advisory board more frequently. If you're broke, you can't hire a coach. So I had a lot of mentors and personal advisors that I reached out to early on who just knew more than me about something, who would guide me and coach me, and they held me accountable. So I think it's important to have that in our lives to support us in getting through the next barrier, because it's all— it's— I can work out with the best of them, you know, on my own. I can go to the gym and get a great workout. at any moment, but doing it time and time again, I'm not gonna give my best unless I have a good coach. So it's just about having the support to get you through the challenge easier.

So I'm curious, what's on your fear list today?

I mean, Spanish is still a fear of mine. I mean, it's not as much a fear of mine, it's just, I'm just not that good at it yet. So it's something I really want, And I practice, but I still don't have full confidence doing it, but I practice it consistently. And I just, I wanna be able to speak fluently, but I'm still not there yet. And this is the thing, learning to not beat yourself up is also a big thing, because for years I was beating myself up that I wasn't as fluent. And I was like, oh, I should've been here by now. I did public speaking quicker, I did salsa dancing quicker, I did all these things faster. Why is this not happening as fast? And I think when you beat yourself up that it's not going as fast as you want, it almost slows you down. And so I literally, at the end of last year, a few months ago, I started to say, okay, I'm gonna accept where I'm at, I'm gonna stop beating myself up, and just let it flow a little bit more and know it's gonna happen at the right time. And that has given me more peace inside to stop Forcing the outcome and accepting the process.

I've spent quite a bit of time traveling in Central and South America, and I know what you mean. It's it's tough when you're when you're feeling judged by other people, and you're trying to understand what somebody's saying to you, and you're trying to repeat, or you're trying to then formulate a thought and translate it back to them. So it's an intimidating no no. You're probably better than I am. I always say lo siento, solo hablo un poquito de español. Repite por favor.

You got the R. I still don't know how to do that. I've been trying for 20 years to roll my Rs and I still haven't figured out how to do it. So I've tried all these techniques and it's like I stop, but I have to stop beating myself up for not knowing that or not learning it as fast as I would like to.

Yeah. Well, you have a great coach, so.

I do have a great coach. She's amazing.

Yeah. I think early on too, like you're talking about having a coach and having a mentor and something that like books have done. I know for both Nick and I, like, books have kind of been that mentor and that coach. And then also like podcasts and books like the book you just wrote, like those books give people that can't afford those coaches yet some access to absolutely amazing information from people who have been there and done it.

And here's the thing, you know, I've got almost 1,400 episodes that are all free of great mentors and coaches to myself that I respect as well that I've interviewed. who a lot of them are friends of mine and peers of mine now. And I keep doing it after 10 years because of the repetition. You know, you were asking me before, does some of this stuff ever get repetitive? And yes, it does, but we all know what we're supposed to eat, but a lot of people aren't consistent with it. We all know we're supposed to move our body and work out, but not everyone does that. Just 'cause you know the information doesn't mean you're gonna do it. But I think hearing it consistently continues to confirm if I'm on the right path. And there's always moments of insights that I'm like, oh yeah, I haven't been doing this. This is working for this person. Let me make sure I bring this back in. How can I tweak my process and optimize it? So I think, um, having that reminder— and also, I just believe that the wiser I get, the less I know. And I want to keep asking questions. And just because I have more answers and more results than I did 10 years ago and more wisdom doesn't mean I want to give up being a beginner. And the beginner's mind allows me to learn from every human being. It allows me to see each human being's experience and know that I can learn something from them. And when I can learn from anyone, I can always grow. It's when I think I've got the answers over other others, I stop growing. And so that's part of the process too.

Yeah, on the car ride over here, we were talking about what makes you such a great podcast host, and I think that it is the beginner's mind. You go into a lot of these conversations, you might have had similar conversations with other experts in the same field, but you go in with a blank slate as if you know nothing. And you ask general questions that gives the audience a chance to learn from the beginning. So you're not assuming that you know anything, and I think that's one of the things that makes you a great host.

Thanks, man. I've always been curious. And I talk about in the book that if people are trying to figure out, I'm in transition, I'm stuck, I'm in a breakdown, where am I supposed to go, what is my mission? I talk about the 3 Ps to support you in figuring out what the mission is for yourself. The first one is passion. And that's really just curiosity and interest. I've always been curious. I've been interested in people. I wanted to learn about their story. So that was a passion of mine, right? And so that was one thing. Okay, I'm a curious person. I feel like I ask kind of weird, dumb, like, questions that I feel like everyone would know the answer to, but I don't know the answer to. That's why I was afraid in school to raise my hand and ask a question, because I thought I'd get laughed at. by everyone, and I, and I did. And so I was like, okay, I'm not gonna ask this question because everyone seems to know the answer but me. So I kind of feel like, all right, well, I just lean into asking these kind of dumb, simple questions. But then I get so many people like, man, I'm so glad I was thinking the same thing when you asked this next question. And I'm like, I'm glad that my insecurity and what didn't work for me then works for me now. And so leaning into my my passion, which is curiosity of people, which is being interested in people, is something that I love. That's the first thing. The second thing, the second P is your power. Like, what are your gifts and talents, the powers that you possess? I love connecting people. I love supporting people on their goals, their dreams, their vision. And I love really creating goals and accomplishing them and being consistent on those things. So I have these talents and gifts that I knew I was good at. And I married that with my passion, my curiosity for people as well. Then I also started to create the list again of the things that make me feel powerless and make those superpowers, right? So the insecurities, I then make a power. And the 3rd P is the problem that you want to solve. My whole intention 10 years ago when I started this, I was stuck in traffic here in LA when the idea of a podcast came to me. I was in a breakdown in my relationship. I was in a breakdown in the business partnership. And I was just reactive in life to lots of little minor breakdowns. And I was stuck in LA traffic. You guys were just driving around here. You might have been stuck at a moment in traffic. And I remember everyone around me, we were like stopped on the highway and everyone around me was like honking their horn and flipping people off and just angry. And I go, man, I can relate to this right now. And it's kind of a metaphor for where I'm at in my life. It all came together. It's this perfect storm. And I remember thinking, huh, there's gotta be a way to help people who are stuck in traffic or just like angry in life or stuck in life like I am right now. There's gotta be something for me and everyone around me. And I had this idea of like, there's a lot of self-doubt, there's a lot of insecurity in the world. And I think that self-doubt is the killer of all dreams. When we doubt ourselves, We don't step, we don't take action, we don't do it courageously. Even if we're afraid, we don't— we just don't even do the step to get us there. And I have this thesis over the last 10 years that if, you know, if we could rid ourselves of self-doubt, or if we can embrace it and overcome it and move forward in spite of it, then we can get closer to the life that brings fulfillment, love, and joy and accomplish our dreams faster. But if we doubt ourselves, it's going to hold us back from acting towards that dream. And so I said, let me, let me, let me try this podcast thing. You know, I haven't been trained to interview people. I didn't know if podcasting was going to work out. This was 10 years ago. There was very few podcasts even out there. No one even knew what the word was, really. You had to like explain like, okay, go, you had like 5 steps to go listen to the episode. It was like a hard thing to do and no one was really doing it. But I was like, I have a feeling this could be a fun process. Let me try this for a year. Let me do it once a week for a year and see if I even like it. So I was in a phase of exploring. I didn't know if this was gonna be my mission, but it was an exploratory phase. And I said, if I can learn from people to help me get unstuck, And if I can share it with others and help them as well, I'll try it for a year and see what happens. And I, I solved a problem, right? So there was a problem I wanted to solve. I wanted to get myself unstuck. And I wanted to help others who were metaphorically in that traffic or stuck in life have the wisdom and the insights and the stories to break through. And so I married all 3 Ps together. with what I'm doing now, and it still works for me. It's still something I enjoy 10 years later, so I keep doing it.

So I'm curious about the early days of the podcast. Who is the first guest that you interviewed that really gave you butterflies, that you were nervous for?

I mean, Robert Greene was my first guest, and he was great. I was nervous. Um, he's amazing. He was very kind to have me on, and I've had him on a few times since then, and we're friends now. But I remember, you know, when you start anything, probably when you started with what you're doing now, you were like, who am I gonna interview? And this is a person I read their book 5 years ago and it really impacted me. Robert was like that. And he wasn't even putting himself out there that much then. Back then, he was kind of like, not a ghost, but he was more mysterious. Like, he didn't put out content. It was like, you got a newsletter once a month on his blog and that was like gold, right? And no one even knew where he lived or what he was doing. You're just like, he's got another book out every few years.

Yeah.

And that was it. So it was, it was a big deal, um, 10 years ago. And he took a chance to have me on when he didn't know anything about me. But that built, you know, I had great relationships that I used to, to interview and promote, and then everyone built upon the next one. So it's been a fun journey, man.

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Number one, I was— the first 6 months, I was still going into the mindset of how do you win, how do you be successful, how do you look good, how do you be number one. That was kind of the mentality of the conversations with my guests.

Mm-hmm.

Then it started to shift because again, I was in a breakdown phase and during those first 6 months, I started to do a lot of Healing work, a lot of workshops, therapy to really relearn about what wasn't working for me. And my life was a lot of win-lose mentality. I didn't understand the concept of win-win until about this time. Maybe I'd heard it, but it was like it didn't even resonate with me. I just thought I needed to win at all costs in sports and then win in business. And that meant that no one else could win, right? It was like, I have to be number one, that means someone else is number 2. It's okay if you're number 2, but I've gotta be at the top, otherwise I'm not happy.

Mm-hmm.

And it was exhausting. And so that's one of the reasons why the show is the way it is, because I needed to essentially completely reinvent my identity and have a different relationship with my ego. 'Cause my ego was about me looking good and winning. And that's why when the School of Greatness happened, I started to transition more into how can I just shine the spotlight on everyone else and make it about them succeeding, not about me looking good. That's why it was never the Lewis Howes Show, and it was never about like me being the expert. It was always about me asking the questions. And that gave me a decade of practice of shining the light on others and elevating others and saying, how can I lift you over my shoulders, over the bars so you succeed. And by doing that, it has just allowed me to be at peace knowing that others succeeding can also be a part of my success. Others looking great and accomplishing, I can feel good about that. And so it's been a decade of unwinding and unwiring that old identity. And practicing it. And it's really not until now where I'm allowing myself to come out and be the voice as well, whereas I felt like I was always elevating others. And now I'm— with this book is also an opportunity for me to say, you know what, I've got some wisdom too I want to share. And now I'm allowing myself to do solos, to go out there on other shows, and to start promoting the things that I've learned. Whereas before, I was kind of shying away from a lot of that because I just wanted to keep serving others and make others— put them in the spotlight.

I'm curious, that switch, like, it seems like— I mean, like, from my point of view to looking at you, like, you have such a heart for people. I, like, I tell people all the time, like, I feel like Lewis Howes is one of the most genuine people I know. Like, you just care about people so much. So, like, it's so great now that you're like, hey, I have wisdom to share too, because you Definitely do, and I'm so happy that you are sharing. But, um, I'm wondering, like, you talked about your ego and everything. Was there like some switch? Was it when you were driving in the LA traffic that you're like, oh, I need to make it about others? Or like, was there a moment, or is it—

Yeah, I mean, the moment was probably like, um, during this time I also got in a fight on a basketball court in LA that was kind of a wake-up call for me because I'm in a no-stakes basketball game pickup, fun pickup basketball game and I get in a fight. I get so triggered that me and another guy get in a fight. And it wasn't a good fight, it wasn't like a little scuffle, it was a full-on fistfight. And I remember going back to my apartment and just kind of shaking on the way home and looking myself in the mirror and I couldn't recognize myself. And I was, this was like a wake-up call. And my friend, who's actually next door, he was like, I don't wanna play basketball with you anymore if you're gonna be like this. Like, I don't know why you're getting so reactive to like some nothing trash talk, why you're getting so triggered by it. And I realized there were some wounds that I was unwilling— that I wasn't willing to face. There was some— you know, when we get triggered by life in any setting— business, relationships, intimacy, whatever, the news— when we are triggered, it's so easy to react.

Yeah.

It means there's a wound that's open somewhere inside of us, emotional wound. And when you touch the wound, it hurts. So the wound hasn't closed and created a scar and started to mend yet. If you're that easily wounded, I'm not talking about having sadness if someone dies or someone actually hurts you or whatever it is, we're going to feel a wide range of emotions. But if we're easily triggered to be reactive and defensive and guarded and angry and upset and all these things, There's an emotional wound. There's a memory we have that hurts, that has caused us to create a belief that if this happens, I need to protect myself. If they do this, I'm unlovable. If this happens, I'm abandoning myself, or someone's going to abandon me. If this, then they're abusing me, they're taking advantage of me. I had all those things. And so I was very reactive when someone triggered— when hit the button of that wound, boom, I would get reactive, defensive, guarded, shut down, closed off. I put a mask on and it protected me in some ways, but it hurt me in many other ways. It helped me become successful and driven in sports, but hurt me in relationships. And, and so the whole point of like, I don't think we can truly be great until we learn to create new meaning And mend the memories that are still wounds. That's why 10 years ago, I started to open up about the sexual abuse that I experienced as a kid. For 25 years, I didn't let a soul know because I was afraid if anyone knew this, they would not love me. They'd make fun of me. They would kick me out of their lives. All this stuff. It was a shame. It was a wound. And it wasn't until I could address the wound and the shame and start opening up about that and everything else that I was insecure about. Where I felt like I could move on and not be as triggered. On page 201 of the book, I talk about this mindset, the powerless mindset versus the greatness mindset. And the powerless mindset is someone who lacks a meaningful mission. So if you're not clear on what you want, that is also including others in your life or in that mission, you're going to feel more powerless.

Yeah.

If you're controlled by fear and crippled by self-doubt, you're going to feel powerless. If you conceal past pains, shames, insecurities, or events that you're so ashamed of, you're going to feel powerless in certain moments. If you're defined by the opinions of others, like myself and Nick were for a long time, you're going to feel powerless to their opinions. And if you drift towards complacency, you're going to feel powerless. And that's when— I decided I had a lot of these things, but I was getting results in sports and business. So I thought like, there's nothing wrong with me, but these things were still consuming my emotions. And it wasn't until I started to recognize and be aware of them and make a decision that I've got to start doing something differently. I have to create a new identity in my emotional being. And then I need to lean into the greatest mindset, which is driven by a meaningful mission. You turn fears into confidence. So I started making this fear list and going all in. I started overcoming self-doubt. You heal past pain. I did not want to face all the painful moments. This is not fun. This is the scariest part to do for most human beings, specifically for most men. We don't want to face past pain. And there's big traumatic events and little traumatic events that happen. Things that our parents just said to us that wasn't like they were emotionally abusing us, but hurtful that we never addressed. Things kids said to us, students said to us, whatever, teachers that Weren't like they were physically abusing us, but it's still hurtful. We have to address all these things. And also creating a healthy identity. My identity was not healthy. And then I started to create a new contract for my life 10 years ago. The contract was— before the contract, I would get angry and triggered. I was frustrated. And I was, and I was, it was just kind of reactive. I wasn't peaceful, right? I didn't have peace inside of me. So I had this kind of identity based on my actions and feelings was my identity. During this time, I started to again go to workshops, emotional intelligence, leadership, meditation, lots of different modalities to help me heal and transform. and guide me. And I created a new contract for my identity 10 years ago. I said, I am a loving, passionate, wise man. Because before, I felt dumb, angry, and resentful. So I said, that's not me anymore. I am a loving, passionate, wise man. And that has been my contract to myself for 10 years, that anytime I maybe don't feel that, I step back into it. I'm a loving, passionate, wise man. I'm in rooms of extremely intelligent people all the time that know way more information than me, that are way more book smart, intelligent, all, you know, they have every fact, they can do better math equations, all that stuff. But I say, I'm wise, you know, I have wisdom. I don't need to have all the answers because I'm wise. And so it's just reframing my identity in any situation. And then having the healthy identity, the last thing is takes action with a game plan. Most people talk about writing the book for 10 years, but they don't write it. They talk about launching a podcast. They talk about breaking up from the relationship they know they're not supposed to be in. They talk about starting a new career, but they don't take action with a game plan. And they just keep talking about it. And so For me, it was identifying the things that made me feel powerless and deciding to step into the greatness mindset.

So I'm curious, with the contract that you have, is that more of an affirmation that you'll read out loud every day, or is it just a—

It's a way of being internally.

It's a way of being?

Yes.

Okay.

If I— I haven't really said it out loud to myself or needed to say that in many, many years, but in the first 6 months, I needed to say it a lot. And I need to act in accordance with that belief and start transitioning from the old way of being. Healing is a journey. It doesn't happen in a moment. You become aware in a moment, but then the nervous system has to catch up to your wisdom. The nervous system— once I became aware, oh wow, um, I've been afraid to do this this whole time, my whole life. And then you act and you, you step into one of these things. Like for me, opening up about you know, the past shame of sexual abuse. It took so much courage to act into it. It wasn't like I'm healed in a moment. It took me a year of acting continuously and practicing communicating it and my nervous system catching up to me and saying, okay, you're safe. You're okay. People aren't going to abandon you. You're not abandoning you. Until maybe a year later when I felt comfortable talking about these things where they didn't consume me anymore, where it didn't hold me back. So it's a practice of healing and integrating the lessons over and over. It's not a destination, it's a journey.

What tool has helped you heal the most? Like, if there's somebody listening today and they, they're facing some trauma, is it therapy, meditation?

I feel like I had— I don't know, I just feel like I had a lot of messed up stuff, so I probably needed more tools than most people would, but I don't think it's one thing. I think it's a combination of lots of things that I've done. There's an experience I did, a workshop I did in Los Angeles called Mastery in Transformational Training. This helped me 10 years ago unlock a lot of these things. That was the first thing. It was 2 weekend workshops that create games, exercises, and scenarios for you to Reflect on how you show up in life. How do you show up? How do people receive you based on your energy? And so you get this like weekends to kind of try a bunch of different games and exercises with other people in the group, and then you get feedback on how you show up. So it's just more of like an awareness experience, but you dive in physically, mentally, and emotionally into embodying it. So it's not like you're sitting there and listening to someone speak and you're just taking notes. you dive into living it and you get instant feedback from your peers about what they see in you, what's missing from you, what's working for you. It's a feedback mechanism. It's one of the most powerful things I've ever done, and it gave me a lot of tools to do what I do today. So that was the first thing, but then I've—

And do these workshops still happen?

Yeah, they still happen. I just sent a bunch of my team to the workshop 2 weeks ago. Yeah, it's a game changer. I need to go to one of those. It's a game changer. And it gets you to break down your walls. It gets you to open your heart, to express your love more authentically, and to lean into your authentic self as opposed to your defensive, guarded self. It allowed me to open up fully and lean into the person I truly wanted to become. So that was that. I did therapies back then, different therapy, talk therapy sessions back then also that supported with this. I went to India for a number of weeks and studied meditation and became a meditation instructor through that practice. And I think anytime you can go away or retreat for 2 to 4 weeks and really do 10 hours of work a day on your feelings, your thoughts, your mindset, whether it be through a breathing meditation or meditation retreat or anything like this. I just think you're going to get a lot of wisdom from that time away, from reflection, whatever type of retreats you want to do. I also did, um, Dr. Joe Dispenza's 7-day meditation retreat where it's like, you know, 12, 15 hours a day you're meditating, no phone, you're in the science of it, you're practicing it, you're embodying the frequency of love. You are the frequency of love, and you're allowing— you're getting tools on how to step into that frequency more frequently. All great things come from love. They don't come from resentment, anger, frustration, a lack of forgiveness. Great things don't come from that. Those things create more stress and anxiety in your life. You might be able to come create something, but still you're gonna have what's inside of you, which is resentment, frustration, anger, shame, you know, and all these different things. But when you have love inside of you and you create from that, you receive more love, you receive more peace. It's the analogy of, uh, you know, Wayne Dyer used to say this, like, when you squeeze an orange, what comes out of an orange? It's orange juice.

Yeah, I like that.

When you squeeze a human, What comes out of a human? It's whatever is inside of the human. So if you're constantly angry, anger is going to come out when you are under pressure or under trigger. But if you feel love for yourself, for your friends and family, for your mission, and for the world, love comes out of you when you're under pressure. And I just had this master Shaolin Shaolin master. who's been studying Shaolin kung fu for 35 years and teaching this to the world, yesterday. And he was saying something similar. He was like, you really wanna cultivate the environment of love and gratitude in your hearts. And every day they have a practice at the monastery. Every day everyone comes together and practices gratitude where they feel it so intensely from their past. They think about the most love they've ever felt, the most connection they've ever felt, the most someone's ever done for them, and they bring it into their heart and they experience it as if it's happening now every single day. And that cultivates more gratitude. When it— when they're under pressure, more of that comes out of them, more love and gratitude and peace and abundance.

And so I do.

I have emotional coach every 2 weeks for the last 2 years that I go to that supports me if I'm feeling off or struggling. But I go and I don't feel any struggles, you know, right now, and I still go because I want to prepare for the future. I want to stay in this place of love and peace and gratitude. So it's just about having the accountability and the practices that work for you. I've done You know, a week-long Wim Hof breathing meditation and ice training in Poland. I've done so many different experiences of meditations, therapies, and healing modalities. They all work. They're all beautiful. Figure out what works for you, and for me, it's about doing it consistently and investing in that practice consistently. I love that.

We have a goal for the next 10 years.

I know, I know. That's great.

Um, I think like, I mean, obviously what you're saying is healing is a process, right? Healing isn't this— I think, I know there's a lot of times I get caught up in like, I just wanna be bad. I just wanna be my best self right now.

Journey.

Snap a finger, be done with it. And, um, yeah, that's what I'm finding. It's, it's a journey and it's a tough one for people stuck, for people stuck. And I, you, you've talked about the meaningful mission, but for people stuck, I don't know, stuck on the couch, And they just cannot figure out even how to get out of the couch. I mean, where do you— where do you— where would you point them? Like, what do they start with? Is it— is it like read a bunch of books or go talk to people, let it out? Like, what— what would you— what would your advice be around that? Like—

I just think if you're— I just think, um, if I wanted to win a championship, I wouldn't do it alone. I'd find a coach first. I'd find a mentor, a guide, a coach, an accountability partner, a personal advisor, whatever situation you're in. If you can't afford a coach, find a mentor. If you can't afford a mentor, find a 2-year-old brother who just knows a little bit more than you and have them support you, whatever it is, your parents, whatever it is. I just don't think when we don't know the answers and we feel stuck, that's when it's the hardest. We shouldn't try to do it on our own without some guide, without a coach. It doesn't mean we can't figure it out. I just feel like it'll support us in having that emotional psychological support and someone championing you going forward, as opposed to you trying to like coach yourself constantly when you feel already down. So that would be step 1. Uh, for me, step 2 literally would be following the whole book step by step, because I wrote this for myself when I was stuck. This is the book I wish I had when I was not sure what to do. And I was like, okay, I don't have a meaningful— I don't know what to do. For step 1, what's your meaningful mission? Because that is what all the greats have. They are clear on that. No Olympic gold medalist said, I'm just going to do this by accident. They were so clear on their mission. And then they set, and then they had to go overcome their fears. You know, one of the 3 fears that hold them back from taking action. So they did that. And then they got to get clear on their greatness game plan. All these things they have to follow through. And again, I wrote this for myself at every stage of my life when I was stuck. What would I need to do based on the leaders of greatness in the world, what they did? And then backing it with science that proves that these just aren't just personal stories, but also things that are backed by neuroscience and therapy and other things. And so that's what I would do.

Um, yeah, you know, um, we've touched on a little bit here and there, but I was thinking about, uh, you also talk about failure in your book too. And I think failure is one of those things that it's such a, it's just a scary thing. Like people fear it so, so much. I know that failure, the fear of failure has kept me stuck so many times in my life. So many times in my life. So I don't know, what's your, what's your advice around that? Why has it, why has it stopped me?

Because when I go around and speak in front of big audiences, I'll ask people, raise your hand if you're afraid of failure.

Yeah.

Usually 80% of the room raises their hand.

Yeah.

And it's the cause that holds them back from taking action. But you launched a coffee shop when you were 21.

Yeah.

So were you afraid of failure when you launched it?

No, you know, what's so interesting is that that was something I wanted to do, and I was like, oh, maybe when I'm 60 years old I'll do it as a hobby, 'cause I loved coffee. And the opportunity just basically just came up, and I was like, I can't not do it, I have to do it.

So you weren't afraid of that, but you're afraid of other things.

Yeah.

Why are you afraid of other things? To do them.

What are you afraid of?

Oh man, what am I afraid of? Everything.

A lot of people raise their hand and say they're afraid of failure.

Yeah.

And again, you hear people say, I've always wanted to write a book. And then I'll ask them, how long have you been thinking about this? 10 years. 10 years? But your fear of failure has robbed you of your gift of putting this out there in the world? and the opportunity to inspire or help someone else or entertain someone else. You've let your fear for 10 years rob your gift from your creator, whatever you believe your creator is that brought you here. You're allowing fear to rob you of serving and inspiring others. You didn't let it rob you with the coffee shop, but what are you afraid of moving forward in, in another area?

I mean, right now the biggest, the biggest thing I'm afraid of is, you know, I, I talked to you a little bit about moving out of the place I'm in now and I'm so comfortable there. I can pay all my bills. Like I could live, I could lose my job and I could—

You're still fine.

Yeah, I'm still fine. I could be there for another, you know, 2, 3 years and just be okay and not have to worry about having a job. And it's like if I leave that comfortable place, all of a sudden it's like I'm gonna be pressed against the wall and my finances are gonna be stressed and Like everything's gonna be stressed and I'm like, what if I can't, what if I can't make enough? What if I, what if I get to this place where I'm like, I have a bigger house and I can't pay the bills? Like that scares me. And then I also have 3 kids too. So like that's another added layer on that.

Sure. Sure. No, it makes sense. You have different responsibilities and things like that at this point. But I think, um, the question you should ask yourself is, who would I need to become in order to make these things happen? You know, when I am going to be pressed against something, when I am going to be struggling to overcome something, what do I need to let go of? What do I need to overcome, embrace, in order to make it happen?

Hmm.

And if there was no other way but I had to make it happen, what would I need to do? And I think that's, that's the challenging thing. A lot of us are afraid of Getting uncomfortable into letting go of something that we don't want to let go of, or stepping into something that we're unsure of inside of us. It's scary taking on a new challenge. It's scary taking on new responsibilities when you already have 3 kids and lots of responsibilities, and you know your environment. You know you have a family community. You've got all these things that you know well. So it's scary. Um, and you just have to ask yourself, But you have to get clear on what you really want and why you want it. And as a, you know, a spiritual man, you have to understand, is this voice inside of me nagging me? Is it calling me forward? And am I listening to the voice that's inside of me that's calling me forward? Or is it just something I feel like I'm supposed to do because this person's doing it? You have to understand where the voice is coming from that's calling you. If you deny that voice for too long, you're denying what your creator has in store for you. So you have to listen and reflect to make sure it's the right voice and not like someone influencing you to do something that you don't want to do, but you feel like you're supposed to, or you're being pressured to do something. I felt called to do a podcast and to create a show. I felt like, I don't know if this is going to work out. This could be a waste of my time, but I feel like I at least got to try it. And if it doesn't work out, I can always go back and do what I was doing before. So I was listening to the voice and then I was paying attention and listening as I was doing the thing. And after a year, if it didn't support me or others, I don't think I would have kept doing it. But I was getting positive feedback and it kept— a voice kept saying, keep going, keep going, you're doing— you're on the right path. And it felt authentic. And so you got to see what feels right for you intuitively. And where you feel called to go next. And maybe that is moving, maybe it's not. And maybe you need more time to reflect on it and really evaluate if that's what is your mission right now. And moving your, your family with you to some other city is a big undertaking. So you want to make sure you feel called to do it. And it may be a lesson where you try it for a year and realize, oh, that's not what I want to do. I'm going to go back and live in Kentucky the rest of my life. Okay, cool. At least you're not questioning and doubting, was I supposed to do it? At least you know, at least you know, and you can always go back and feel comfortable again. You know, results don't lie, so, but I only got 750,000 downloads the whole first year, and that was going all in every day promoting it, like every week doing an episode, so less than a million downloads. In the first year.

That's still— that's 750,000 people.

Well, it could have been like 50,000 people 10 times or whatever, you know.

But still, like, that's just—

Yeah, but there was also no comp— there was no podcast back then.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was like less competition. So there was only so many things to listen to back then. But I— yeah, I mean, for me, I have— my mission is to serve 100 million people weekly to help them improve the quality of their life. So that helps me measure differently and just know, am I going towards that direction? Is that happening on a monthly basis? So, you know, it's just as long as it was growing, I was happy, you know. And, and I would get lots of messages from people of like, wow, I listened to this person and I quit smoking, or I lost weight, or I got out of a toxic relationship. Or I got a message last week. This is— I mean, this is Half the reason I do this is for these messages, just knowing that this is possible, just knowing that this is like a possibility. And you really, you don't know who you're impacting until they say it. You know, these guys DM'd you and told you, hey, this really helped me, thank you. And now they're in your life, but you don't know until someone tells you how it's impacting them. I've been to a few prisons to like kind of help and teach men about the mask of masculinity, right? Another book I wrote. And so, and I grew up going to a prison almost every weekend for 4 and a half years when I was 8 because my brother was in jail. So I've been around, you know, inmates and inmates' families, and I've experienced a lot of that and witnessed it. So this was a year and a half ago, I did a livestream during the pandemic to all the prisons in America. So there's 2 million inmates. They livestreamed this programming in the TVs in all the cells, right? I don't know how many people watched it, but they said it went out to all the prisons. It could have been 20 people for all I know, but my friend Scott Budnick pretty much goes every weekend to the prisons in California and really tries to help the men who are Some of them are extreme murderers and done a lot of bad things, typically in their late teens, and they've been in there for 20, 30 years and have transformed and found healing and peace and all that, but they're in there for life. And others were wrongfully convicted and went to prison for crimes they didn't commit that he's trying to help get out. So he's helping all of them that want the support, that want to grow and become better men. I think there's 2 million inmates in America. So there's a lot of men who are suffering and struggling in America who made some mistakes but have been accountable and want to try to improve, and others who are still struggling. So he sent me a text with a photo of like a handwritten letter from an inmate named Scott. And he said, this is a 6-page letter from Pelican Bay State Prison from a 21-year-old that's been in solitary confinement for 2 years. Solitary confinement is 23 hours a day in a cell, 1 hour outside just for fresh air, but then you're by yourself 23 hours a day. He had a swastika tattooed on his chest when he— when I met him. He dropped out of the white gang he was in, and I asked him why, and he said because of Lewis Howes and The Mask of Masculinity. And this whole letter was about how I was in solitary confinement, I watched this livestream, Lewis Howes talked about the masks that he wore in sports and in business and in life to fit in with other men, a projection to belong based on a fear, based on wounds, insecurities. And, um, and he was like, for the first time I could see how I had done that. And it wasn't people just don't understand me. I was really acting out of fear, and I was doing things out of fear to fit in, belong, and not get beat up, essentially, right? Or whatever he was dealing with in his life. And he— in the— and I— he sent me the whole letter, so I have it now. And he said, I've read the book 4 times over and over again, and I get something new about healing myself, about letting go of the shames and insecurities and transforming myself as a man. So I've now left the gang and I'm taking the steps of healing, forgiveness, self-love, and growth. And so for me, it's really meaningful to get messages like that, to know that the work you're doing is helping other people in some way. And we don't know who we're truly impacting until they let us know. But I remember writing that book, The Mask of Masculinity. This is over 5 years ago. And I remember when I wrote the book, I said to myself writing it, I don't think this is gonna be some massive hit, because it was a book about how men can be more vulnerable. And most men don't buy books in the first place, and most men don't wanna be vulnerable. At least that's been— most men's been conditioned that way, let alone buy a book about them being more vulnerable, right? So I just knew it was a hard sell in terms of not as mainstream, you know, mass media, all that stuff. And it came out right— I wasn't trying to do this, but it came out right when the MeToo movement was happening. So there wasn't a lot of like focus on this book, even though I thought it was actually perfect timing for like this to be talked about. But it kind of got lost in all the chaos of what all the, all the men doing stuff in the world that was bad.

Anyways.

I remember saying to myself, like, I don't care if this book is successful, but if it can help one guy heal, transform, you know, do less harm in the world, it's worth it. And that is— it's like, I've had many letters like this, but it's like stuff like that reminds me, okay, sometimes it doesn't have to be this massive success and get all these downloads or all these sales. You can do stuff to make an impact on one person. And that's a beautiful life too.

Yeah, I like the, the lesson. I think I've heard you talk about it before actually, but impact doesn't need to be one-to-many. It can be one-to-one. It can be one-to-10. It doesn't have to be one-to-100 million every single week. Exactly. And I think, I think once you start to accept that and you play in the one-to-one or one-to-10 or one-to-20 space, then you can grow into a bigger platform.

Yeah, exactly. And I started one-to-one for many years. Until it grew.

All right, we've got to wrap up, uh, pretty soon because of time. So I wanted to ask, if somebody's on the fence, they don't know if they should pre-order this book or buy this book, who is the target reader? What's the primary outcome that you're expecting for somebody?

My goal is to give people peace, freedom, and clarity in their life. So if you feel stuck, unsure, trapped, Complacent, just not sure what decisions to make moving forward in some area of your life, I want you to go through this step by step and act upon the steps. There's a lot of exercises in there to help you navigate it, and by the end of it, you should have a lot better understanding of where you're heading and why you're heading there and the person you're becoming in the process. And, um, so it's for people that are trying to figure that out. And if you go through it and you do not get a clear game plan by the end of it, I'll give you your money back. Yeah, reach out to me and say, you know, if you didn't get the value you wanted, then I'll give you your money back.

I don't know if I've ever met somebody that doesn't want peace, freedom, and clarity.

So yeah, that's my intention.

Yeah. Any final thoughts? Any final questions, Luke?

Uh, no final questions, but, uh, just wanted to thank you for your time, man, for your mind, for, uh, putting in the 10 years of work on yourself so you can help others. Like, it's, it's, it's, man, I'm not— I don't know why I'm crying here, but it's just, it's, it's, it's super inspirational. Like, it seriously is. So thank you. Thanks for the, the going through the hard stuff because, man, appreciate it.

Well, here's the thing, you know, I'm I feel like I've got— I'm just getting started with the lessons. After 10 years of learning and growing and trying and mistakes and pain and suffering, I feel like this is now the foundation for the next 10 years. So I'm excited to keep learning, keep growing, and keep sharing.

Yeah, well, you had all of these experts on your show for a long time, and I think now there are a lot of people listening today and people out there in your community where you are their dream guest because of the unique value that you provide. So it's kind of come full circle.

Yeah.

You know, it's pretty cool.

I appreciate you guys. Thanks.

Yeah. Thank you.

Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Luke.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, Go read something.