114. Dr. Marcus Collins | Author of For The Culture

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview author of For the Culture, Marcus Cullens. Marcus is hard to sum up in a few words. He is the head of strategy at Wieden and Kennedy New York, a clinical marketing professor at the University of Michigan. He's contributed to campaigns like Nike's Just Do It and the Cliff Paul State Farm campaign, among many more. Prior to advertising, he worked in music and tech as a startup co-founder. And led the iTunes plus Nike Sports initiative at Apple before working with Beyoncé. Yeah, you heard that right. In this episode, you'll learn about the meaning and importance of culture in your life and work, why you should always strive to be your best self, the role culture plays in your daily life, and so much more. This was by far and away one of my favorite episodes, and I know you will enjoy it and learn more about the way the world works. Marcus gave us some incredible insight into how to carve your own path and why understanding what you believe is fundamental to living your best life. Now, without further ado, get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Marcus Collins.

Marcus, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast. How are you feeling today?

I'm doing pretty well, man. Thanks for having me here. I'm stoked for this.

Yeah, me too. We are filming this a few days before your book officially launches. Are you nervous?

I'm, I'm like, I feel like I'm a glass box of emotions. Like, in some instances, I'm like, super excited because I've been sitting on this for a long time, right? You know, if you go from pitch to publishing, it's almost 3 years. So I've been thinking about these ideas and writing them by myself for quite a while. But then on the other hand, you know, I'm excited for it in the world, but on the other side, I'm also like nervous that people are going to like it. Like, is it going to resonate? You know, and, you know, is it going to do well? So you have all these emotions happening at the same time, but ultimately, I just hope that it helps people.

Oh, me too. Well, let's take a step back for a second. For those in the audience that are not familiar with you in this book, why don't you introduce just from a high level, Introduce it to us. Sure.

So I'm, I had the fortunate pleasure of having my foot in the world of academia and the world of practice. I'm the head of strategy at Wieden+Kennedy New York, an advertising agency known for probably most famously our work with Nike. Like we created Just Do It. While I do that, I also teach at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business. And I, I make that point because it's the convergence of those 2 things that really centers on What this book does. It explores and interrogates the idea of culture through a rigorous lens, like a scholar, like an academic would, but then focuses on how do we leverage it? What do we do with that? The so what about it? And bridge that academic practitioner gap is what I do in my practice. And I wrote a book that hopefully demonstrates that through prose. And the book makes a very clear, and one may say simple argument. That there's no force more influential to human behavior than culture, full stop. No external force, that is. And when I say that out loud, most people go, oh yeah, totally. That, that makes sense. And I go, great, awesome. Define culture. And then you'll get like some Homer Simpson blank stares, right? Or at the very least, you get 25 different answers. And that's a problem because if we can't explain a thing concretely, how do we ever leverage it? How do we ever use it? How do we harness its power? So having better language, having a better Rosetta Stone to describe a thing will enable us, empower us to harness the pers— the, the persuasion or the persuasive power that is culture. So the book uncovers what is culture and then say, okay, if that's what culture is, why do we respond to it the way we do? Why does it have this effect on us? And then ultimately, how do we leverage its sway in our day-to-day lives, whether you're a marketer, a leader, a manager, an entrepreneur, activist, politician, clergy, or just a regular person, right? We're all trying to influence behavior. I'm trying to get my kids to eat peas. It's a challenge.

Well, I'll, I'll say this. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of books that I've read in the personal development and business space, the nonfiction space, I might have only read one other book that was sort of accidentally about culture, which was The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, talking about how people work at sort of a macro level. So, can't wait to dive into your book a little bit more. But when did you start writing this book?

So, one would say, if I were being esoteric, is that I've been writing this book my entire adult life, at least taking the receipts of it my entire adult life. But I really put pen to paper right at the top of the pandemic, right before the pandemic kicked off, because I realized as a practitioner, there were a lot of people that used the word culture in our daily lives. We need to get our idea out into culture. It needs to be informed by culture or what's going on in culture. Culture, culture, culture, culture, culture. But we didn't have a way to operationalize it. So that's a problem. But then personally, I realized how influential culture was in my early stages as an adult because I was making decisions not because I wanted to, but I felt like I had to. So I'm born and raised in Detroit, product of Detroit City. did well in math and science in those days, in the, the late '90s, if you were Black and you did well in math and science, you're gonna be an engineer, full stop. Those were the expectations or the conventions that were placed upon people like me, right? So when I went to school, I studied engineering, not necessarily 'cause I wanted to, but I felt like that's what I was supposed to do. There were social pressures telling me that this is what was expected of people like me. After my first year of school, like, you know, I thought it was interesting, but I couldn't see myself doing it for the rest of my life. But I went home that summer, I said, Mom and Dad, I don't think I wanna be an engineer. And my mother, who's an academic, she says, wait until you get into your major. You'll love it. Trust me. Of course I trust my mom because she's my mom. So my second year I went into my engineering major and I did not love it, guys. It's, it was not a love affair. Interesting, yes, but I didn't love it. So I took some music theory courses to offset my terrible GPA. And I actually found myself falling in love with major 7ths. It's like, oh, this thing, like it felt so familiar from like listening to Stevie Wonder to, to like, but also felt new and novel because I was learning about how chord changes and modal mixtures, the relationship between these 2 things. It was the first time I remember being excited to learn as an adult. And I went home the summer after my sophomore year, said, Mom and Dad, I think I want to be a songwriter. And they said, Son, we think you're on crack because there's no way you doing that. That is not going to happen. And I ended up finishing my degree in engineering, not because I wanted to, but I felt like that was what I was supposed to do. And what I realized 20-some-odd years later since graduating is that I didn't have the language to describe what was happening to me. What was happening to me is that there were cultural forces saying that people like me do something like this, so I ought to fall in line. And I did, even though it wasn't what I really wanted to do. And I felt like if I know, if I knew, or if I had the language to describe it, I would've had better agency to navigate it. So I wrote this book from a personal and a practicing perspective, and I started writing the book, at least in, in the, my coded memories from my early college years. to today as a practitioner and scholar.

How did you break free from that mold, from those thoughts? Was it just time? I feel like there's so many people, even myself, like I've struggled with that thing that you should do versus like, what do I really want to do? And I think we can see it throughout social media and the world that we live in today is that people are still kind of fitting into that mold of what they should do. So what was the breaking point? What was that tipping point for you that you were like, hey, I'm going to follow what I want to do instead of continuing down this path of what I should do or what I, what I'm supposed to do?

I accepted that there were going to be, uh, challenges. Like, I accepted that this is what I really want to do and I'm willing to be divergent. I mean, it's essentially how things work in culture. Like, culture is the system of expectations and conventions that demarcate who we are and establishes what's expected of people like us. The beliefs that we hold, the artifacts that we don, the behaviors that are normative, and language that we use. And we, as members of community, as members of social groups, because we self-identify as such, we therefore adhere to the beliefs and ideologies. And we, we have this shared way of life based on the truths and ideologies that we hold. And then we show up in the world similarly because we subscribe to that identity. And the idea is that I was doing the behaviors because that's what people like me were supposed to do. And so I decided, well, maybe I'm just a little different. And this is how we think about, uh, culture being what's expected of us. That's how we get subcultures. They're like, yeah, I'm a Collins, sure. But like, I'm this kind of Collins. So maybe I don't fit like the norm of what people like me do. When it comes to this, I'm gonna be on, on the outskirts. And, and we see this in all subcultures, that there is the broader cultural, uh, population. There's people who are counterculture who push against that, people who decide to kind of do their own thing on the side. But it requires being intentional and saying, I'm not gonna be that. I am going to shift how I perceive my identity. And identity is the anchor of all things culture. Yeah.

And that's a, that's a scary process, isn't it?

Yeah, totally, totally. Because like our identity, man, our identity helps us demarcate who we are in this world, you know. Um, you know, to challenge one's identity kind of shakes the, the foundation of who they, who they are. And when we find ourselves out of sync with the social groups that we have for long subscribed our identity to, it could be really challenging. It's like people who, who leave a church or leave their religion. It's like, I was grown, I grew up this way, I'm supposed to do this. And we think about our first identity association, our families. You know, people go to Thanksgiving and go, ugh, this is gonna be so painful, but I gotta go because this is what we do. And I'm not gonna talk about, uh, religion, money, or politics because it's gonna reveal that there are some ideological things that we don't hold. true in this family and it's gonna break us apart. So I was gonna shut up and just talk about sports. No one can get offended talking about sports, right? We do these things so that we don't find ourselves out of sync with what the expectations are of people like us. Because to not— to— for identity to be challenged, it challenges who we are and fundamentally where we show up in the world.

Oh, sorry. I know, Nick, you have, you have a question. I'm sorry. Um, I just wanna just follow up with that, which is, What advice would you have for someone that is trying to break out of the mold that they're in? And, you know, they're in their, their 20s, maybe they're a little bit earlier, younger than that, and they see that they don't like that thing. They don't like the engineering and they want to break out of it. What advice would you have for that person trying to do that? Like, what are the first steps they should do to take that, that leap?

You know, we often say, you know, what are you passionate about? And oftentimes, you know, there's people who roll their eyes and go like, passion, whatever. It's not about passion. Scott Galloway talks about it's what are you talented at? Like, that's what you should focus on. And, but, but I like the idea of what are you passionate about? Because we often use that word passion without understanding its origins, its etymology. So the word passion itself comes from the religious texts and it means to suffer. Think about The Passion of the Christ. It's the suffering of the Christ. So we ask ourselves, Luke, for what are we willing to suffer? And those are the things that you should, in my mind, you should allocate your energy towards. Because if you're willing to suffer for it, then it's likely that you're willing to invest in making yourself better at it. You're likely willing to go the extra mile. If you go back to, to, um, Malcolm Gladwell, the 10,000 hours to develop a mastery for it. I, I suffer for this thing, and the willingness to do that will help increase likelihood that we'll be successful at it. Not just 'cause it makes money, not just because, you know, we like it, not just 'cause we love it, but we're willing to suffer for it. And so I tell brands, what I tell students, what I tell leaders to start with, what do you believe? What is your ideology? Like, what, what, what are you convicted about? What are you willing to stand for if you're the only one standing for it? What do you believe? And if we understand sort of what do we believe and what we're convicted about, then we're willing to say, you know what, this is my North Star and everything that falls outside of that, I'm not gonna follow it. And I write about that pretty extensively in the book, that if we want to use culture as a way to influence behavior, as a way to connect people, as a way to get people to move, which is the core function of marketing, then we find where there's congruence between my ideology and yours, the way you see the world and the way I see the world. And when those 2 things are congruent, when things are aligned, we're more likely to connect. And brands can have ideologies. Brands have beliefs. Brands have ways of seeing the world, right? Nike believes that every human body's an athlete. Right? Everyone buys an ath— everybody's an athlete. Big, small, short, tall. We are all an athlete. The only thing keeping us from being our best athletic self is ourself. So what does Nike tell the world? Just do it. Right? And people who see the world similarly go, that's my kind of brand. That's my kind of brand. And while yes, there are people who are coders who aren't athletes, not that those 2 things can't exist, but let's just say people who are, are not athletic still wear Nike. Great. But Nike's not trying to engage you. They'll take your money. Sure. Like, you know, great to be a customer, but Nike's talking to the people who see the world the way they do. And because of that, Nike's able to connect with them in a meaningful way because of their shared point of view in life. So as you think about yourself as an individual, you start with, what do I believe? How do I see the world? What am I convicted about? For what am I willing to suffer? And I go, well, I'm not willing to suffer for this engineering thing or for this economics thing or for this history thing. I'm willing to suffer for this thing. So that's where I wanna invest myself. And because of that, that clear point of view of the world, our steps, our actions, our decisions become a lot easier to ascertain, to make. Because our vision is far clearer.

Marcus, Luke and I are in the background over here fighting for who gets to ask the next question because we both clearly have a lot to ask you. We're like, unmute. That's the sign. We're both unmuting, muting. Okay. I have 2 questions to be a little bit selfish here. Number one, how did you develop your ability to speak? I mean, you're so articulate. You have a very fun, way of speaking. You use a lot of kind of like hip language in there. And so I'm curious, like, were you always so articulate and energetic, or was this a skill that you developed over time?

I definitely was not articulate for sure. When it comes to presenting, I feel like I learned how to present by working at Apple. You know, like I felt like everyone at Apple wanted to present like Steve Jobs because he was the best, right? Full stop. Right? And so I wanted to present like Steve, but everybody was trying to present like Steve. So what's my version of Steve Jobs? I had to think about, okay, so what makes me me? What makes me distinctive in the way in which I deliver information? It's like I want to take like the aesthetic of Steve Jobs, and then I borrowed from the storytelling method of my pastor, right?

Right.

Reverend Collins, who was my uncle. And then I took sort of the, the kinetics of this, this lawyer named, uh, Irvin Younger. This guy is a monster. He's so, so good. And essentially, I took a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of this, and put it together to sort of make it my style. Like, sort of, um, what's the, the Eminem line? I took some, I took some Biggies and Pac, mix them up in a pot, sprinkle a little, a little Big L inside, and what do you got? Like, it's, uh, it's— and quite honestly, it's actually quite scientific. There's a sociologist named, uh, Levi Strauss, and he refers to this as bricolage, which is French for mashup, that you create new things by taking pieces of this, pieces of this, pieces of that, put it together to create something new. I mean, this is how we get hip-hop, right? Hip-hop is a bricolage. The drums from this sample here, sample there, new vocals, new, new, new thing. So that's kind of how I developed my style. But I wasn't able to articulate these things well because I was trying to articulate them like someone else. Even in business school, I saw the people kind of talk with the vocal fry. They kind of talk on the up of their voice like this, like everything has a question mark behind it. And I was like, that's not how I talk. So I had to learn how to talk like myself. I had to learn how to be myself, learn how to find my voice. And you only do it by doing it a lot. You know, there's a Miles Davis quote says, you have to play a lot to learn how to play like yourself. And from, you know, presenting and giving talks and sort of honing style teaching, for sure, I really got to something that I think is important for, for marketers, for leaders, for entrepreneurs, for activists, for clergy, and for politicians. So you gotta be yourself. And I feel like the more I learned to be myself, the easier it became to speak, the easier it became to present. Am I the, am I the dopest? No. Am I working on it? You better believe it. But ultimately, I'm just trying to be the best version of, of myself. I think that when we see people do that, we see brands do that, we say that those people are so authentic. And authenticity is something that we gravitate towards. I mean, people were like in love with Cardi B when she came out because she was just so Cardi B. No matter where she was, she was gonna be Cardi. And in fact, there's a scholar named David Brown Jr. who talks about this idea of authenticity being the ability to transcend context, that no matter where you are, you are yourself. And once I felt confident enough to do that, I felt like things just started to kind of fall in place. And that requires a lot of confidence. I mean, it's, you, it's, It's a, you gotta be courageous to be willing to be you, especially in a world where everyone is, you know, imitating each other. To be you, it takes a lot of courage. Wow.

Well, I'm going to take a little bit of Marcus Collins and add, add him into my speaking skillset as I continue to develop my own authentic self. I mean, you are, I, I'm just, I can't wait to jump into the book after we get off of this discussion because you are pretty special. Do you write like you speak?

I try to. My wife says I write too flowery because she's like very direct in the way that she speaks. So she likes things being direct. But, you know, what I try to do— I mean, like, look, they're great writers that I love. I mean, just like, just really great writers that I love on the academic side, on like just like the normal nonfiction side of the world. I don't read very much fiction, but like those two kind of called them polars or two spectrums, two sides of the spectrum. They're just phenomenal writers. And I don't know where I fit in there. But I just tried to write the book like I was talking to someone.

Yeah.

Oh, man. You know, I tried, I tried to write it in such that it felt conversational and felt approachable, but still accurate, right? And for someone who's balancing academia and practice, like bridging the gap between the two, like I wanted to write the ideas that were accurate of what the ideas were from a scholarly academic perspective, but that they were also digestible for people who aren't of, of, from the, the social sciences or from academia. And that was a hard, that was a hard thing, but also do that in a way that sounds like me. And hopefully I succeeded at that.

Yeah. Well, I'll follow up on that soon. Yeah.

Keep me honest, Nick.

Since I just got the book. All right, here's my second question. So I love the idea that passion comes from suffering and sacrifice. So let's say that we've got somebody in the audience today. Most of our audience is 18 to 34 young professionals. most of the time fighting against societal norms. And that's because they're not willing to sacrifice for the box that they're currently in, right? Maybe it's the wrong job, the wrong relationship. Society and culture says do it this way, but they're not willing to sacrifice for it. So, do you have any advice for somebody on how to handle criticism from society, family, friends, if they want to make a pivot and start focusing on something that they are willing to sacrifice for?

Yeah. So the first thing you gotta do is find other people like you. I mean, we are social animals by nature, as Aristotle says. Going at it alone becomes really, really challenging because you don't feel any solidarity. You feel like you're crazy, like you're wrong, and that's your brain trying to protect you. By the way, the job of your brain is to make predictions to keep you alive. The brain is a survival machine, and when you're the only one doing it, the brain goes, mm-mm, this ain't right. That's why if you're in New York City and you get on a train, a train car, you're the only one in that car, you're in the wrong car, right? Something is wrong. You can't be the only one. So when you're thinking about sort of pushing against conventional norms, being divergent, find people who see the world the way you do. And then you build community, you build and facilitate a network of people. And while you get the outside voice, they're like, what are you doing? Don't do that. you get encouragement from the people around you, right? We talk about, you know, your network is your net worth, but the people that you are around are what's gonna help you reach the level that, that you want to be, right? So surround yourself with people who are willing to suffer for their thing, even if they're not doing the exact same thing. They don't have to be doing the same thing, right? I, I read, I, I saw, I read an article, maybe it was a podcast I heard. It's like the best advice I would give a 21-year-old is to live in a house with 5 other people who are going hard after their thing, that they have their 9 to 5 and their 5 to 9, because those people are gonna keep you grinding. Why is that? Because we are wired to imitate. It's who we are. Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's our brain saying, hey, imitate these patterns, rehearse these patterns, and you're more likely to survive.

Yeah.

Gabrielle Tart, who's a sociologist who studies social contagion, Study social contagion. He talked about that all society is imitation. Like the brain is wired to mirror what we see. It's called the mirror neuron system. We look at people, we watch their behaviors and we copy it. That's why yawning is contagious or laughing is contagious, right? Like it's who we are. We're built to do this. So if you seem to be the only one in a space where you seem to be divergent, you're, you're doing it all by yourself. And everyone's like, what are you doing, Nicholas? Why are you doing that? You're playing yourself. You gotta find other people who be like, oh, you doing it, Nicholas. You are making it happen. And I'm doing the same thing too. You find community. And the book talks a lot about this idea that community, these groups of people who see the world the way we do, who share a same way of, a same, a same way of life because we share a same cultural subscription, that we act in concert in an effort to promote social solidarity. And Mill Durkheim refers to this as collective effervescence. Like, we just, we mimic people like us in an effort to stay close. So for us, for people who are like, I don't wanna do that, I wanna do something totally different, you gotta put, create a circle of people who are doing the thing that you're doing, even not the exact same thing, but they see the world the way you do and you develop expectations and conventions of what people like you do. So that you feel like you belong. You feel like I'm doing the right thing despite the, the, the, the, the feedback that I'm getting that says otherwise.

Yeah, that's pretty powerful. We've definitely been working on surrounding ourselves with better people and people that are pushing themselves. It's something that I've worked on for the last 2 years is changing the group of people I'm around. And it's incredible. I know people say it a lot, but it is incredible how much it changes you internally. By doing that, it blows me away. And I still, even to this day, that a lot of people in the self-help world kind of preach that, but I still think it's very much undervalued. And I think more people need to do that. I have a question around your book. Like, why did you decide to write for the culture instead of like the mindset of being you or something along those lines? Because you obviously have a lot of knowledge around a lot of different topics, and it seems like you have a lot of knowledge around Surrounding yourself with the right people and all these different things. So why, why culture over anything else?

I think that even though I have some opinions on other spaces, I felt like I had a license and authority to talk about culture in a meaningful way that was probably distinct from the other literature and other books that have been written on it. You know, I, I don't consider myself like a self-help guy, even though I feel like my ideology, the way I see the world, what I feel like I was here to do is to help people. Right? Like, I think that, that we're all put on this earth to serve. And for me, it's to serve God and serve each other. Like, that's why I feel like we're put on this earth. And the way I serve is by helping people realize the best versions of themselves. I just so happen to teach. I just so happen to give talks. Just so happen to work in advertising. I just so happen to have written a book. But why I do it is to help people realize the best versions of themselves. And I feel like my point of view on the self-help stuff probably wouldn't be as impactful as it would be on the culture side because that territory, that space had not been as excavated as it should be in any contemporary form, right? Where people— we use the language, even though there's scholars that are way smarter than me that has written so much about the space, it hasn't been written in a way that people are able to digest it. And actually do something with it, have agency for it. And I feel like that would be a better way for me to serve than for me to just kind of add one small brick on the edifice that is sort of the, the self-help world. But ultimately, I'm helping people be better because they have more agency, because they'll have better language to describe what's happening to them, whether they're aware of it or not.

Yeah, I'm so excited to dive deeper into your book. You talk about a concept that you call legitimization.

Is that correct? Yeah.

Legitimation.

Legitimation.

All right, there it is. Um, can you describe to our listeners like what that is and tell us about what it means?

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So legitimation is the social process by which we decide what's acceptable for people like us, what ideas are acceptable, what brands and branded products are acceptable, what behaviors are acceptable, what people are acceptable, uh, what cultural characteristics Are expected for people like us. And we do this process without even talking about it.

It's—

there's no drum major, there's no memoranda, there, there, there, there, there's no email that went out saying, hey everybody, we're gonna start wearing '90s gear. Okay, everybody got it? Ready? Go, go buy some '90s clothes. Like, this is what we do. Like, we observe people. And through the conversations that we have, the discourse that we have, Through what we observe about how people present their identity projects in their daily lives, we get a sense of what's expected for people like us. I write about this in the book, in the example, the Oscars last year. Will Smith smacks Chris Rock. We saw that and all were aghast. We all clenched our pearls like, I cannot believe that happened.

Why?

Because that was an exogenous shock to the system. that we as a society had never seen before. So when I saw that, the first thing I did was like, wow, that cannot be real. It must be a, it must be a, a bit. And then once I saw the, the, the Australian feed, I think that was, I was like, oh, this really did happen. And as a researcher, I got really excited because I said to myself, oh my Lord, we were about to watch America make meaning. We're about to watch America decide What's acceptable behavior for people like us? So the media started to repeat the slap as we know it to be, and then people started writing think pieces about the slap. And then people, regular Joe Schmoes like you and I, we jumped into the discourse through Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and we're, we're discussing and negotiating and constructing what's acceptable. Right? People were like, look, Will Smith needs to learn how to take a joke. He was just joking with him. Some people said, look, violence is never okay. Some people said, this is a black tie affair. You don't slap anybody at a black tie affair. Some people said, look, if somebody talk about me, my husband better slap somebody in the face, right? What we're doing is we're entering the discourse with our point of view based on our cultural frames. We were deciding what is acceptable for people like us. That's the legitimation process. It happens Through this kind of discourse, whether it's explicit through what we talk about or it's implicit through what we see people do. And this is sort of the crux of the book, that everything we do is informed by culture. In fact, I would argue that consumption at its very core is a cultural act. What we wear, what we drive, what kind of devices you use, where you go to school, if you go to school, who you marry, if you marry, where you vacation, where you bury the dead, if you bury the dead. All these things are byproducts of our cultural subscription. So we're making decisions not because of what, who we are as individuals, but who we are as a collective, as a community. And our community is deciding Do people like us do something like this? If the answer is yes, we do it. The answer is no, we don't. Right? Are we, are we still, uh, boycotting Kanye West? It depends on your people, right? Are we still listening to DaBaby? It depends on your people, right? Our behaviors are informed, won't even argue governed by what people like us do based on where we subscribe our identity. And legitimation is the process by which that happens. And it happens not within the individual's mind, it happens within the collective's mind. And culture helps mediate that process. So for anyone with a vested interest in getting people to move, whether it's a marketer, entrepreneur, advertiser, leader, manager, like culture is your biggest cheat code because this informs almost every single thing that we do on this planet.

Luke, I think you, the thumbnail should say culture is a cheat code.

Yeah, I agree.

That's beautiful. It totally is. Yeah.

Do you have, for a company, for an individual, for people trying to build a culture or create a culture, almost like, I, I don't wanna say from nothing, but just from scratch, do you have any like fundamental principles that you teach or that you tell people this is what you need to do to, in order to create a culture that you wanna Yep.

The first start with what do you believe, right? So say, you know, Luke, Nicholas, we're starting a company. Cool. We have, we have a company. It's us, Book Thinkers. That's who we are. Sweet. We have an identity. What do we believe? How, how do we see the world? Why, why are we doing this thing as opposed to anything else? Right? Why do we decide to start this company where we review books and we talk about awesome books to help people navigate their world? Why do we do that? What's the driving Modus operandi based on what we believe. And now we have a belief system. So if we believe a thing, now what are the norms, behavioral norms of us? How do we talk? What are the artifacts that we don? I mean, Nicholas is rocking some cool swag right now, right? And so what happens is that when we anchor ourselves in an identity and we establish a belief system, Then the ways by which those things manifest, how they come to life becomes very, very clear. And as a company, in the case of you 2 gentlemen, the products that you bring to market are all byproducts of your belief system. Because of what you believe, you do X, Y, and Z. Here's an example. CVS believes in preventative health. They were just a pharmacy. That's what they did. But it's like, well, what do we believe? Like, how do we see the world? Said, we believe in preventative health. I said, okay, if that's our belief, if that's what we believe, that's the ideology that the best health is preventative health, then let's look at our book of business. What do we sell? What do we bring to market that's supposed to be demonstrative of that belief? Well, CVS realized that they were selling tobacco products and tobacco has a zero, 0% therapeutic index for anything good. Right? Completely harmful. And see, if you guys said, well, if we believe the best health is preventive health, then why do we sell tobacco? Then someone said, well, of course, because we make $2 billion a year from tobacco. But what do we believe though? If we believe this thing, preventive health, then we should cut tobacco from what we do. So they did that. They cut tobacco. $2 billion of revenue that they just got rid of, and they invested that effort, that energy, those resources into things like MinuteClick, into these preventative health options, these tools that people might be able to be more conscientious about their health from having better transparency, more information and the like. And CVS ended up making more money from doing that thing than they did selling tobacco products. Right? So it starts with who are we and what do we believe? And then we use that as a rubric, as a filter to evaluate all the behaviors that we take on, all the products that we bring to market, who we hire, if we hire. And the notion is that we're not hiring people just because of their skillset. We're hiring them also because they believe, they see the world The way you do. And you two, when you start this company, you started with nothing, right? Everyone starts at zero. Zero customers, zero fans, zero revenue, zero subscribers, zero downloads, zero votes, zero. But you two showed up because you believed. And when you start hiring more people, you don't hire them just, I need someone just who could make some assets really easily. No, you hire people who see the world the way you do, who believe. And that becomes the job of the founders, becomes the organization, is to preach the gospel about the belief system. Pound on your chest, pound on the desk, beat on the walls. This is what we believe and this is why you're here. And that's the challenge for companies as they get bigger, because the bigger companies become, the further away they get from the founders who were there for a reason because they believed. Which is why you're managing your, your, your, your management group, your senior, your leaders. They have to also preach the gospel as well so that the people that you're hiring, they don't come in just because you have a great 401 and, you know, you have a great insurance package, medical package, and your vacation policy is awesome. They're showing up because they believe. That's extremely powerful. And because they believe, they will fall in line with what is acceptable behavior for people like them. Because this is collective effervescence, that we, we imitate, we, we adopt the cultural characteristics of a group of people in an effort to promote social solidarity, especially when our belief system is aligned. And when they're not aligned, people go, I ain't doing that. Uh-uh. Then why are you here at this company? Because I got a good paycheck. And those are the worst employees to have. They're there not because they believe, they're there for the value propositions. But if they're there because they believe, people stick around, even if they have outside offers that may pay them more money. But like, I'm here because I believe. So we build culture based on shared ideology.

I see why, uh, you're getting paid the big bucks. I wanted to share with you Based on what you just said, that we, we have a few people working at BookThinkers, including Luke, that took a big pay cut financially to join the business. And that's because the culture, like what you say, preach the gospel of your belief system. If you're not willing to sacrifice for the money that you're getting, but you are willing to sacrifice money to work for a company that aligns with your culture and belief system, you'll be more in tune. and in sync. And we actually have like, I have a couple of friends and people from our community that are evaluating that transition right now. Should I take a big pay cut to be with a company that I align with more? And it's fun to watch that happen. All right. I've got a big question for you.

Okay.

So if culture doesn't, well, you said culture governs our behavior, right? And it's not the individual belief systems of people, but it's the culture as a whole. So who Who is responsible? Like 80/20 thinking. What 20% of this collective group governs 80% of what happens in culture? Is there a breakdown? Who's in charge?

I could just hug you right now because what you're getting at is, so how are these cultural characteristics negotiated, constructed, and ultimately adopted? So let's go back to statistics, right? So take you back to your statistics course for a moment here. We know the bell curve, right? So if your listeners think about the bell curve in your mind, see that curve there. It was started actually in the 1800s as the Gaussian curve by a mathematician named Carl Gauss. And Carl Gauss postulated that this curve represents the distribution of all things that happen organically, right? So the height of trees, the intellect of humans, like they all abide by this distribution curve. The majority of people, 80% of people sit in the middle. And there are a few outliers on each side, right? So the Gaussian curve has stood the test of time, so much so that we call the Gaussian curve the normal curve. And why is it the normal curve? Because everything in nature abides by that normally, right? So when the mean, the mode, the median are equal, we say that that is a measurement of centrality. So the closer you are to the middle of that bell curve, of that normal curve, The more normal you are. So in a population, you are more normal when you are abiding by what the cultural characteristics are of that population. You believe what you're supposed to believe. You behave how you're supposed to behave. You act how you, you speak how you're supposed to speak. You dress how you're supposed to dress. There are social pressures being pushed on you telling you to be normal. Those social pressures are the conventions and expectations of culture. In fact, through this lens, we can say that culture is the measurement of normality. So everything is happening in, in that middle. But to your point, how does it get there? Well, everything that is now normal, that is now cool, all started with the thing on the far left— subculture. 20 years ago, if you were into Uh, comic books, you were a loser, a dork. Now comic books, the, the, the movies we watch the most across the globe all come from comic books. 20 years ago, if you were into gaming, you were a failure to launch living in your mama's basement. Now gaming's a multi-billion dollar industry. 20 years ago, if you were into anime, or maybe 10 years ago, if you're into anime, you were a dork. Now anime is super cool. Everything that is now normal started subculturally, and this is how things propagate into our population. They start with someone who's willing to look foolish just for a moment, someone who's willing to be deviant. They were talking about earlier, Luke, they're willing to be deviant, willing to push against the norm just for a moment. And then people go, oh, that's kind of cool. And it propagates throughout the, uh, the population. When Mark Zuckerberg says, I'm dropping out of school to start Facebook, people were like, you're leaving Harvard to start—

what are you—

what is wrong with you, dude? I'm sure it was— his parents actually were very supportive, but I'm sure his friend group were like, what are you doing, dog? This don't make no sense at all. Mark Zuckerberg goes to be popular, goes to be, be successful. The idea of dropping out of school to start a thing becomes adopted, becomes acceptable, acceptable into the cultural, uh, into the cultural conventions. It starts off with a small group of people are willing to try something first as a way to be distinctive, as a way to be distinctive. And then people then adopt it as a way to be normal.

That's an— I mean, I have so many follow-up questions and so much to unpack. Uh, that's an amazing answer. And yeah, I feel like some of the things that were like the examples that you're giving, some of the things that I went out on a limb with a few years ago, thankfully, they're becoming a little bit more popular because I guess if you go out on a limb and you try something and you're willing to look a little foolish and it doesn't catch on, like being a total nerd and loving personal development books and sharing books on Instagram and all these things that were abnormal back then that are a little bit more popular now. If they didn't catch on, you kind of get left out there in a little bit of a silo too.

But you're willing to do it because you are passionate or you're willing to suffer.

Yeah.

And that's why when, you know, people say chase your passion, it's like, I agree with that, but let's make sure that we have the right frame of what passion is. For what are you willing to suffer? So even if it doesn't work out, you go, But that's— I didn't do it for it to work out. I did it because I was, I was convicted about it. That's what we go after.

And I'm happy that you gave me the language to articulate that as I talk about those subjects more as well, especially the relation to Passion of the Christ and everything. So thank you for that.

You got it. I mean, that's why I wrote the book. I wrote the book because language is powerful. If we have a construct, a way to define a thing, a way to frame a thing, Then we are inherently more capable to have agency to do something about it.

It makes me wonder too, like if somebody like Mark Zuckerberg, you know, he dropped outta college and failed miserably on all accounts, would that still be a cool thing or would people still try that even?

Of course not. Because people who would adopt the behavior to be normal will say, oh, that there's evidence that that does not equal success. But someone else will go, well, I'm gonna try it this way because I'm willing to suffer for the thing, right? Like the early, the earlier, the, the, the innovators, as, as Everett Rogers refers to it, the diffusion curve, that's his, his take on the Gaussian curve. Says there's innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, and laggards. And he says the innovators, those are the people that are like, They're out there doing the thing. They're creating the thing, they're making the thing, and they're doing it because they're passionate about it. They care about it. They're invested, they're convicted. You think about musicians, and you would see this all the time, like musicians' first album that, that are successful. They go, man, we weren't in it for the money. We were in it for the music. In it for the music. Then we get to the second album and they don't, they're not as successful cuz they're trying to meet the same success as the first time. They weren't in it for the music anymore. Then what happens in the third album? They go, we went back to basics. We went back to the old studio we recorded. We same producers got the same group back together, get to, get to where we were. So we know this idea of, of what I'm convicted about is what leads to greater results because I'm willing to put in more work. I'm willing to struggle more. I'm willing to, to fight through it because of how convicted that I, I am. And I'm doing it as a means of distinction. I don't wanna be like everybody else. I don't wanna just be an engineer because that's not who I am. I wanna be a songwriter. I want, at least I wanted to be, hey, my heart is still kind of, I wanted to be a songwriter, right? And I was willing to suffer socially, willing to suffer financially. I was willing to do those things because how convicted that I, I was. And people who say, oh, if I were successful at that, they'd be like, oh, I'm gonna do that too because there's evidence that it's successful. It reduces any social stigma for someone, and now it becomes quote unquote normal.

This is your song. I love it. Uh, we always wrap up, uh, before we ask for your socials and everything. Luke has a, a question to wrap up every podcast. So Luke, in the interest of time, you wanna jump that to the front of the question line?

Man, this might be the, the most powerful episode I've been on so far.

Same.

Wow.

And I have a lot to ask you after we finish up too.

We got part 2 coming in.

I just, man, I am, I know I do. Like, I'm, I want to ask a whole bunch of other questions, like legitimately. Wow. All right. So I like to ask this question to wrap things up, which is pass on all, everything that you have, everything that you've created, everything that you've done goes away, but you can leave the world with one single piece of advice. What would it be?

Wow. I'd probably take from a Steve Jobs quote that I absolutely love, and it continues to fuel me, that everything around you was made by someone no smarter than you. So what's keeping you from making a dent in the world? Like, I believe that so, so, so fiercely because like, man, I'm just a kid from the D. You know what I mean? Like, when I look at myself, there's nothing remarkable about me, right? But I believe that, like, I can do things. I think that, you know, through the divine power of God and my own sheer will to suffer for a thing and put in the work, I feel like things are haveable. I think that if you have that perspective, that all the hurdles in life, all the friction points, all the negative feedback that you might get, you're able to overcome those things because you believe. Man, the mind is a powerful thing. And if you convince yourself that it's possible, man, your chances of reaching it are far higher than not.

Hang on, it's making me literally tear up. All right. Beautiful, beautiful. I love, I do, I love Steve Jobs too. He's one of my, I, I like Walter Isaacson wrote Steve Jobs. That book is, continues to be one of my favorite. I've read it a couple times. Awesome guy. Yeah. So for those people listening that don't know how to find you, what, what can they do? Where can they go? How can they get your book and read it and learn more about you?

Yeah, so the book is available where all books are sold, uh, came out on May, May 2nd, uh, but you can find me at all socials @MarkToTheSea, M-A-R-C-T-O-T-H-E-C. Um, my website is marktothesea.com. Uh, you can find me everywhere.

All right, amazing. Thank you so much. That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, Please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.