117. Martin O'toole | Part 2

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

In today's episode, we're talking about the most important thing you can do to become a better listener.

Today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview for the second time Martin O'Toole, author of How to Die Happy. We talk about how to start doing the hard work of self-growth, why letting go of attachment to things, places, relationships, etc. is important, answering big questions like what would life be like if you gave up everything, how self-harm comes in many different forms, and minimalism. We also explore meaning and the purpose of life. And finally, we discuss plant medicines. And a brief disclaimer before listening to this episode, we want to emphasize that the discussion of psychedelics in this episode is intended solely for educational purposes. We do not endorse or advocate any of the activities or substances mentioned herein. If you are currently facing mental health challenges, or if you wish to explore these topics further, we strongly recommend conducting thorough research and consulting with a trained professional. It is crucial to prioritize your well-being and make informed decisions regarding your mental health. While we believe in the importance of open conversations about these subjects, it is essential to note that we are not experts in this field. Therefore, the information provided should not be taken as professional advice or encouragement for engaging in any illegal activities. We encourage our listeners to approach this episode with an open mind. to seek further knowledge from reliable sources and to exercise caution when considering personal choices related to the discussed topics. Now, with that out of the way, get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Martin O'Toole.

Martin, welcome back to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. This is your second time recording with us in 2 weeks or 3 weeks, which is A Book Thinker's Record. So how are you feeling today?

I'm stoked to be back. So thanks for having me. I'm very, very pleased to catch up with you guys again. Really enjoyed our first conversation.

Well, we won't—

oh, go ahead, Luke.

I'm just so excited here. I can't keep my mouth shut, but I just wanted to say really quickly because I wanted to get this out before we get into all the topics from the book. I'm almost finished with Martin's book now. And I was just telling him before we hit record that it is the first book that I've actually been excited to stay up and read. I can't even tell you the last time that I was that excited to read a book. So awesome book. Go check it out, guys, because this book is so awesome. Like, I literally could not put it down. And that's saying a lot because I've read hundreds of books and it's been a long time since I've done that. So really exciting book. So happy you're here, Martin.

That's humbling. They are humbling words to hear. So, thank you so much, Luke. I'm really glad it's resonated.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for writing it.

I'll add some background context so we won't have you introduce yourself again, Martin. But for people who are just picking this episode up for the first time and they didn't get a chance to listen or see the last one, Martin is the author of How to Die Happy, and the subtitle is Curated Wisdom, Stories, and Utilities for the Art of Living. And interestingly, Our last episode covered mortality, death, dying for most of the episode because these are subjects that we're fascinated by. But today we'd like to address what you can do today to become happier. So let's start off with shadow work. That's a subject that we didn't get to talk much about last time. Luke brought it up before we pressed record. something that I read in the second half of the book. So what is shadow work, Martin?

Great question. Well, yeah, I think I cover shadow work in chapter 20 of the book. Shadow work's— it's the bit that a lot of people don't really want to do when it comes to personal development. And there's a really good reason for that. It's because it's quite unpleasant work, if I'm going to be brutally honest. And I am in the book, I'm very forthright about how painful it is. So, so what is shadow work essentially? Well, it, it's— it speaks to the, the Jungian concept of shadow self, this idea that we all have a dark side, and some of us are more familiar with that dark side than others. Some of us are more— what's the word? honest with ourselves about the existence of that shadow self than others. So the shadow work is the absolutely necessary stage of self-realization that we must, must, must all drag ourselves through kicking and screaming if we hope to, to know sustainable happiness. And it takes many, many shapes and forms, but ultimately it requires self-inquiry on a level that, that many people will find very uncomfortable, because ultimately you have to find a, a very quiet place, uh, and some space and time to do so. And you have to run through an inventory of life events, things you said, thought, did, um, and, and really sit in the searing pain of those memories that you've suppressed or repressed. So I'm, I'm probably not selling it.

Searing pain. That's what you got to do. Go through the searing pain, man.

White-hot searing pain.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I refer to skin-peeling flames at some point in the book, you know, I get pretty graphic with it. Um, not to, not to be melodramatic, you understand, just to really hammer home the point, guys, if you're not going to do your shadow work, I think I even say this, if you're not going to do the shadow work, then don't even bother. You know, I think almost just close the book. I obviously don't, I'm not willingly inviting people to close my book. But what I am saying is we live in the age of the hack and we talked about this in our last chat. And there are certain things you cannot hack and everlasting happiness certainly is one of those things. So if you want it to work, you do the work. And the shadow work is where it begins.

Can you give us an example of a before and after shadow work? Uh, just, just like a piece of context. So Person A is experiencing XYZ, they go through this shadow work process, what's that look like? And then what does Person A look like after the shadow work?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, uh, one Obvious example would be the methodology of reevaluating a situation, an event, let's say, that involved you and another person. I don't know, let's say it's me and my first ex-wife, for example. And instead of dismissing those memories, oh yeah, that was her, or we were young, or blah, blah, blah, I actually recall one of those events. And I recall an event that was likely traumatic for me or for her or for both of us. And then the, the job is to, is to try and put myself in her shoes so that I can see her perspective of the event. It doesn't, it doesn't have— this doesn't— this stuff isn't like a boom, right, that's one memory done, boom, that's 2 memories done. No way. You know, you've got to do some serious work with this, and, and meditation is, is a fantastic practice to use. Ultimately, what you want to be seeing is, is a change in perspective. And in that change in perspective, our body often— because our body keeps the score, right? Fantastic book. If you're not familiar with it, check that out. But we hold on to our memories. So we hold on to our trauma. And through doing this process, one of the wonderful side effects or byproducts, I should say, is a lightening and often actually a removal of dis-ease, as crazy as that may sound. So there are many, many benefits to it. But ultimately, you see those person's perspective. You finally put your ego to the side, you stepped out of the way so that you could fundamentally see what you did. Ultimately, it comes down to owning your bullshit. And I talk about this in the book, you know, really, there's no two ways about it. You've got to own your bullshit. And when you own your bullshit, it's not about providing mitigation to self. It's about just owning it. And this is really— it plays into actually the 12 steps, um, and the idea of making amends. Now, obviously, shadow work doesn't necessarily require you to, to go off and, and contact people from your past, although I do actively encourage it. And, and I, I make mention of this in the book. So it's, it's fundamental, but it's life-changing. Because for the first time ever, speaking back to your question, Nick, you are standing metaphorically naked in a mirror, warts and all, and you are accepting yourself for who you have been. And in doing so, truly accepting who you have been, you can then accept who you are and who you wanna be. And, and there's, there's a beautiful alchemical process there of, of rebirth.

I would love, uh, for you, if you don't mind, maybe tell us a little bit about your personal journey with shadow work. Like, maybe how you— I love the coconut, by the way. For those listening, he's got this, this amazing— it's a coconut, right? I am right about that.

He's got this amazing—

I love it, this coconut drink that is just—

I get them delivered.

Beautiful. Um, Anyway, back to my question. If you wouldn't mind, like, maybe backing up a little bit and just talking about your personal experience with, um, shadow work. Like, how did you find this concept? And then what are some of the things that you did personally to get to the point where you were accepting of yourself and your, your shadow self?

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, well, how I found it originally was actually in, in recent— excuse me— in researching, um, Carl Jung. So I was looking at, uh, I, I, I happened upon Carl Jung's work quite early on, um, in my, if you like, spiritual awakening piece. I'd already done, uh, I'd already done psychotherapy, uh, very successfully, and we, we talked about a few different, um, we talked about a few different aspects of, uh, of how my psychology was affecting my behavior. We didn't get on to Jung, but I think we might have discussed, uh, the concept of individuation, which is another Jungian concept. All right, so I— that's how I happened upon it. And then I started to read about the shadow self, and I thought, oh yeah, okay, well, I've definitely got some work to do with that. And, and I realized that I'd been putting it off for my whole life. I mean, you know, and this is a real— like, it's a strange realization for somebody to have in their early 40s, right? You know, I've not actually done any of this work. I've just— it was never me. I was never the common denominator in any of those, in any of those situations. It was always them. And then of course that realization, actually it was you, Martin. It was always you. So I, I went through that process. Uh, I was fortunate enough to do it alone, so I lived quite a monastic life when I moved to Bali. And, uh, and I chose to, to, to do an awful lot of meditation work, sit in silence. Um, actually, I, in the, in the book, I do actually list A little shadow work starter for 10. If I may, I'll, I'll read it for you, for the readers.

Please do.

1, sit with your darkness. Feel the pain until it transmutes. 2, master your emotional responses so you are no longer easily triggered. 3, free from shame or judgment, acknowledge your negative behavioral emotions. 4, free from guilt or judgment, recognize your negative behavioral traits. 5, master assertiveness minus rudeness. 6, learn to appreciate others' truths. 7, observe and accept yourself. Laugh at yourself. 8, observe and avoid passive aggression. 9, arm wrestle adversity. Seek out and analyze the lessons. 10, see yourself in others and others in you, thus minimizing your predilection for judgment. So that's kind of like, uh, I call that the shadow work starter for 10, but hopefully it, it expands a little bit on what, what I'm talking about. There is, um, uh, an idea that, uh, psychiatrist Wellwood, Buddhist psychiatrist called Wellwood, um, created— created, conceived— which is spiritual bypassing. And we might have touched on this in our last conversation, I can't remember, but The idea is that we're keen to distract ourselves as we are. And this is at the very core of this book, that we have so many distractions available to us, healthy and unhealthy. Arguably, many of them are unhealthy, or at least if we are seeking to hide from ourselves, we can develop an unhealthy relationship with anything. And some people would refer to that as addiction, which as far as I'm concerned, and many other people in the addiction field are, Sorry, I share the same idea as many people in the addiction field, and, and that is that addiction is merely symptomatic of something else. We are running away from our— from the root cause of it. We're running away from trauma. So spiritual bypassing is another example of doing that. Okay, I got some work to do, but I'm not actually going to do it in the way I, I probably ought to do it. I'm going to dive into becoming a yoga teacher, or, or doing yoga, practicing yoga every day, or meditating every day, or sound healing or whatever the modality. And the point is, if we're not careful, we shoot straight past the shadow work, straight past the darkness and the dark aspects of self. And ultimately, then we've still got that work to do. That the shadow will follow you around until such time as you turn around, acknowledge it, give it a hug, have a firm word with it, and then explain the new rules of engagement.

Maybe Luke and I can each tell you a little bit about our experiences with shadow work. I would love to hear it. When I was in my late teens, early 20s, I had an ego problem. I think everybody has an ego problem, but I had a really big ego problem that represented itself at the expense of virtually everybody around me. And I didn't intentionally go through shadow work, but I read a lot of books on ego. And meditation. And the combination of those 2 things helped me brick by brick deconstruct the ego temple that I built. And I was in those meditation sessions, especially meditation sessions like sensory deprivation, float tank sessions and stuff like that. I was able to go relive those experiences, put myself in other people's shoes because I was actively trying to become more empathetic as well as a skill set, as a developed skill set. And yeah, that was my kind of ego death phase, if you will. And I confronted the shadow constantly. And, you know, I'm, I'm so much— I'm so happy that I was— that I went through that process. And I just wanted to share that with the Book Thinkers family as another example of what that might look like for somebody.

Yeah, that's good shit.

Yeah, well, I wish I don't know, I could say something as profound as that, but I feel like I'm still in the stage of doing the work, doing the shadow work, still sitting with it. It's even like reading off that list, you know, one of them was free of— free yourself of judgment and shame. And that one is— that one's like the real struggle for me. That one, I, I tend to judge myself very, very, very harshly. And that's the one I just— I still struggle with to this day that I'm actively working on. And it's so interesting too, because not to talk about myself too much, but it's so interesting too because 2 people can have such different experiences. Like for me personally, my experience is always that I was, and it seems, I don't wanna sound arrogant saying this, but almost like too empathetic. Like I worried about others so much that I just myself didn't matter at all. And I still struggle with that a bit, but I am so much better than I was years ago. And I've done a lot of different things. I've done the meditation. I've also done, which I've never said this publicly before, so this is a little nerve-wracking, but I've also done some psychedelics. And maybe we can talk about that. I don't know how I feel about it, but I've also—

I've done it.

I've also done some psychedelics and that helped me immensely and changed my perspective in a lot of ways. And I think that people, you know, tend to, we do, we want to shy away from all the work that we need to do that's inside our, just our own minds and our own head and we need to get ourselves out of it. And, uh, doing the things like meditation and psychedelics has helped me get closer to that point that I'm way farther out of it than I was.

So, I think that's, that's a vulnerable share. So I appreciate that. You know, when, when you, when you really dive into the, into the essence of this and what I'm talking about in this book, ultimately what we're talking about is love and And the first thing we're talking about is, is self-love. And, and that whole self-love experience takes on a different size and shape and color and, you know, for, for every, for every one of us, because of course it, it very much depends how little we loved ourselves before we begin to, to put this, this under a microscope. For me, as you've, as you've read in the book, there was not a lot of self-love going on in my, in my, in the Martin story. It was, uh, more about self-harm and very very focused self-harm. And of course, within that came a lot of judgment, lots of self-judgment and shame and misery to a point of almost suicide. So I can completely relate. And the self-judgment aspect of this process is perfectly normal. I talk about judgment a lot in the book, and I talk about— I'm constantly reminding readers, when you're undergoing this process, always remember just to take that extra pause and ask yourself, am I being kind to myself in this process as well? Because otherwise, we're not— if we're not careful, we can— because I use words like process, right? You know, I've mapped out the anatomy of happy. So if we're not careful, the self-help readers out there who are all about personal development and, you know, God love them for that, may well begin with some milestones here, right? Okay, I'm gonna finish the self-realization stage by X and the self-love fazed by that. No, no, don't do that. Take it easy. Take it easy on yourself.

I was, you might've heard me flipping through the pages here, Martin. I was, I was looking for a quote that I highlighted on self-harm because as you highlight in the book, I can't find it, so I'll just try to recall it. As you highlight in the book, you say a lot of people default to cutting themselves with a razor when they think about self-harm, but an attachment to things around you, an unhealthy relationship to food, Consumerism. These are all forms of self-harm that we don't really consider to be self-harm.

Absolutely. And you, you pretty much paraphrased it well. So well remembered. Yeah, self-harm comes in all shapes and sizes and it's, uh, and it's very, very well disguised. And so as I, as I like to, like, like to discuss, there are so many ways in which we are hurting ourselves without thinking about it. Hence, hence there's a book about it, right? Because it's not, it's not something you can just write, write on a one-pager. Excuse me. Luke's talking about judgment, self-judgment. Yeah, that's, that's, if we're not careful, a form of self-harm. Um, you're also talking, Luke, of, of giving too much to people. So that's the idea of— that's, that's— then we're in the territory of boundaries. Uh, what's a healthy boundary? What's an unhealthy boundary? And there is a chapter in, in the book called The Beauty of Boundaries. I think it's like a page and a half. It's pretty brutal in its advice. But ultimately what I'm saying is one of the things we must do is an audit of everything, right? And an audit of our relationship with ourselves, of our relationship with stuff. And that includes food, drink, music, TV, people, the places we're going, you know, all of those things that are around us, the things that we are consuming directly and indirectly. And our relationship with friends, family, coworkers, because actually more often than not, we don't realize, although we do, but we don't choose to acknowledge it. And I'll throw this out to the audience. Is there someone in your life that whenever you spend time with them, as you walk away or shortly after they've gone, you feel drained and exhausted? And it's a potent question because whenever I ask people that, most of them sort of sit quietly, do a quick audit and go, yeah, there is actually. And often it's a best friend or it's a parent or it's sometimes it's a partner, you know. So, and then the question is, why do you feel that way? And more often than not, then we're in the territory of boundaries. We're discussing how you're giving far too much of yourself away to these people. And either consciously or unconsciously, they are, they are taking part in, in what we call energetic vampirism. They're, you know, they've got a, a metaphorical straw plugged into your, uh, aura and they're slurping away. And, uh, so, so there's a lot of that discussion as well to, to, to cover when we talk about self-harm and, and protection.

Did you have something to say, Nick?

Well, I was going to say, let's, uh, let's say that hypothetically I have somebody in my life, or Luke has somebody in his life where every time we go down that bridge, we come back and we're beat up and we're battered and it's not a healthy journey. Uh, what do you do? How do you fix those relationships? Do you end them? Do you burn the bridge? What's that look like from your perspective?

Great question. The reality is it's a combination. So there are a couple of tools I discuss in the book. One's Berne's Transactional Analysis and the other is Karpman's Drama Triangle. Fantastic psychoanalytical tools to help us observe and audit our relationships and our, what Berne calls transactions with other people. Ultimately, what we're trying to do using those 2 models is rebalance our interactions with people to a sensible adult-to-adult transaction, if you like. If in the instance, for example, as you say, someone's draining you, perhaps you are constantly dragged into a drama triangle by them where they are talking about their woeful life all of the time and inviting you to a pity party. albeit involuntarily, you have to ask yourself how much time and effort you are putting into that relationship with someone, giving helpful advice, offering empathy, of course, and how often they actually do anything about it. Or is it the case that actually there's a constant reset? Every time we go back to this person, it's the same old story, even though we've been giving and giving and giving and offering this, that, and the other to try and help them fix this thing. Some people just don't want to be helped, right? So as Karpman defines that dynamic, they're assuming the victim role. We've hopped in as a rescuer, and now we're in this washing machine. It's a triangular-shaped washing machine. And what always happens is the dynamic will eventually shift. So while you hop in as a rescuer, at some point you will flip to the role of victim, and they become the third personality, which is the persecutor. So suddenly we went in to help and now we're the ones getting a beating. Sound familiar? It should do because we've all got dynamics like that with people. So the advice is really simple. Identify it. First of all, pull yourself out of it, dust yourself off, have a breath, you know, give yourself that love, whatever is required to level up and to, sorry, to power up. Before you then reapproach them and invite them to cease that dynamic and start having what, what Byrne would call adult-to-adult conversations. Now they're gonna do one of two things. They're either, they're gonna say, fuck you, or they're gonna say, wow, I had no idea I was doing that. In which case, amazing. Actually, we've just provided someone a personal development service. They've got some feedback to take on board. My experience, that's the original question. People who are unaware of their toxic behavior are unaware and likely remain unaware until such time as they have their own shadow work moment, they have their own rock bottom moment, and something happens to them that, that forces them to change. Unfortunately, and I, I'm speaking from personal experience as well, I was one of those people. People tried to give me feedback all the time and I didn't want it. And as far as I was concerned, there was something wrong with everyone else, not me. So I lost many, many, many friends along the way. But ultimately, it's what we have to do. We have to ask ourselves, is this a healthy dynamic? I've tried. What else can I do if they refuse to be helped? Actually, I've got to cut ties. So I'm pretty pragmatic about this in life and in the book. There are all sorts of hints and tips about, I call it pruning. And as logical as it, overly logical as it may sound, it served me very well.

Wow. That was a great representation of why your book is so amazing. I think every, I think, Luke, we have to try to Make every podcast like this.

Yeah, I know.

I'll pass the baton. I just wanted to reflect that I've also been the one receiving advice and not willing to accept it. And then once I sort of took the blinders off and I became aware of my behavior, I offered a lot of advice to friends and family in my early 20s that didn't go so well, only to have some of those people come tap me on the shoulder years later and say, hey, I get what you were trying to do. So, I've also played on both sides of that spectrum, and I'll continue to play on both sides of that spectrum. I mean, you're, Martin, you're kind of tapping me on the shoulder right now with a number of these subjects and saying, hey, wake up, buddy. So there's a—

Well, inadvertently.

Inadvertently, but in a very healthy way. Thankfully, I love constructive feedback and passive mentorship, but I'm hogging it up. So, Luke, you have so many great questions too. I want to make sure I stop talking.

No, no, it's all good. I feel like I'm getting a nice personal coaching session here, and I think everyone that listens to this will feel exactly the same way. And like you just said, the proverbial tap on the shoulder, like, hey, wake up, look at what you're doing. I want to— you touched on so much and there's so many things I want to unpack, but selfishly, I want to unpack— there's a chapter and I forget where it was in the book, but it was called Two Bags and a Beagle.

Yes.

You discuss like change and letting go of things. And I'm actually just personally in this point in my life where we, my family, myself, we're trying to let go of a lot of stuff. And it's wild. It's wild how difficult it is. I consider myself kind of, I'm a little bit of a minimalist. I don't have a lot of things. Like my family, not so much as a whole, but we're trying to get there. But it is so difficult. So, do you have, maybe you can expand on that chapter a little bit and talk about change and letting things go because you did the work and you did it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, uh, I'm just gonna try and find the, the, the guy's name so I can remember. Yeah. So, well, for me, it was, uh, it was an interesting position where I forced myself into minimalism. So not to, not to talk too much about my past backstory because it's all in there, but, um, I once had a lot of stuff and I was driving in Aston Martins and you know, living in, in incredible, uh, properties and, and having these awesome travels around the world to, to, to next-level places. Um, and with all that said, I was utterly miserable. So I went from, from that kind of lifestyle to, to then fast-forwarding to short— not too long after I'd done my first ayahuasca, uh, ceremony, which is a psychedelic plant medicine for those of you who, uh, who are not familiar, a very potent one. And, um, I had to, I had to leave London and, and move to Bali, and I decided I was going to take my beagle. And the, the beagle saved my life, so there was no way I was going to leave the beagle in London after, after what that sh— after the shit that dog went through and, and what she did for me. So, um, and I, I got to the— so I sold and gave away everything I owned, and ultimately I wound up with 2 bags and a beagle in, in a white room. There was something very poetic about it because the floors were white and the walls were white. It was all bright white and there was just us in the middle. And when I moved to Bali, I'd already managed to chop up my credit cards and never borrow any money again a few years before. So I decided if I can't afford it, I'm not having it. And that's right there is a, that's a utility. It's a practical utility. It's a difficult utility for sure because of course all of this stuff is driving past us and walking past us and advertising at us and We are constantly invited to consume, yet we can afford not a lot of it, or rather the average person can't afford most of it, I think is probably the more appropriate thing to say. Straying into the other chapter about the illusion of debt. So having told myself, if I can't afford it, then I'm not going to buy it, then I'd already given myself some really tight criteria. And then when I got to Bali, I rented a place and it was already furnished. And this is the first time I'd rented a place with furniture for years. You know, I'd always owned my own furniture and it was always expensive Italian or Scandinavian furniture. And was it the furniture I wanted to choose? No. But was it functional? Yes. Okay, this is working. So I managed to keep everything to this low level and still do to this day. And through that process, I came across these chaps called Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus, who are the quite famous, I think now, the Minimalists. And they have a Netflix documentary and a podcast and a whole host of content that goes alongside it. And I recommend in the book that, and right here and now that everybody check them out because the idea of minimalism is for me actually an accidental spiritual movement, you know, because it actually, it it talks to, it speaks to aspects of Zen and it speaks to, of course, feng shui, which is a very, very ancient practice to do with minimalism and minimalistic layout of things to allow the through flow of chi. So yeah, sorry, I rambled on there a little bit, but when I discovered and began practicing minimalism, a miracle occurred. It was one of these other sort of light bulb moments where I realized I was cutting energetic ties left, right, and center. Um, and every time I cut one, I felt lighter, lighter, lighter again. It's like removing these anchors. Did that answer your question?

Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're speaking very deeply to me right now because I'm just, like I said, I'm just in this, this transitional period of my life and our family is. And, um, we've just been going through a bunch of our, our stuff and like getting rid of stuff. And I, I— you described that perfectly. Like, it just— you just feel— you feel lighter. There isn't— there's, um, even been a part of me that like, I was like, oh, we should sell some of this stuff and try to get, you know, X amount of dollars for it. But even that, I realized, was just me trying to— because none of it's worth that much. Like, just hold on to it. Like, I was just like, it's another thing, just another barrier that I'm putting in place to get rid of this thing. And I'm like, I just need to get rid of it. I just need to get rid of it. Just need to get rid of it. So that's where I'm at.

Yeah. And this speaks to something significantly deeper, which we go into in the book, which we go into the book, like me and some other people wrote it. It was just me and Martin version 1.0. So I suppose it was we. But yeah, and this is attachment. I think we talked about this already, but the Buddha describes attachment as the root of all suffering. So, And we, we cling on to all of these things, even possessions, because we feel as though they, they create our identity. I have a Panerai watch, therefore that says something about my identity. I drive a Range Rover, that tells people something about my story, and I like what it tells them about my story. I, I feel that reflection, and therefore I'm telling myself more things about who I am. But am I Actually, that Panerai watch, am I the guy? Am I a— what is a person who wears a Panerai watch? What has that actually got to do with life and love? Absolutely nothing. And the same can be said for all our possessions. So ultimately, if we want to do this work to understand sustainable happiness, actually we have to ask ourselves, what would life be like without all of those things? What would life be like without The Panerai watch, the Range Rover, the dog, the house, my leg, you know, my wife, my husband. These are the tough questions that we have to ask ourselves. Are we still, do we still have a core of understanding and truth about who we really are and who we are capable of being when we take away all of the other facets of ourselves? that aren't actually us. And that's big work. Make no mistake about it.

Yeah, that's, it's such a scary thought. It's such a scary thought for so many people because like you said, you know, we put our identity in these things like the Range Rover, the watches, the houses, all this stuff like work even. Like, I mean, we put our identity into it and trying to do the work to let those things go is just a, it's a difficult path, but I believe it's a very worth it one. And Something I don't have a specific question about this, but purpose is something that you talk about in the book. And I think purpose is one of those things that so many people get, I don't know, a little freaked out about and they feel like they need this one big purpose in their life and that's it. And I love what you have to say about purpose. If you could just riff on that a little bit, I think that would be advantageous for our listeners and myself.

Excuse me. Yeah. Well, purpose for me was—

Hello, Book Thinkers family. A quick word from today's podcast sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, business, and my favorite, personal development. And as part of Audible's partnership with us, we're actually offering listeners a free 30-day trial. This trial includes 1 credit good for any Premium Selection titles you'd like on the whole platform. So that's pretty much any book, including the one we're talking about today. That book is yours to keep even after the trial is over. Now, this trial also includes access to Audible's Plus catalog of podcasts, audiobooks, guided wellness programs, and Audible Originals. You can listen all you want, no credits needed. Now, everyone on the Book Thinkers Instagram knows that I love physical paper books. There's nothing better than having a book in your hand and Scribbling notes everywhere in the margins. I kind of tear those things up, but I've been completing an additional 20 to 30 books every single year using Audible by listening when I'm in the car, doing chores around the house, or while I'm on my morning walks or runs. You could take advantage of this free trial by clicking the link in today's show notes or going to www.bookthinkers.com/audibletrial. You will not regret it. Now, Back to today's episode.

I was very early on, I decided I was going to be rich. I was going to be a successful businessman. I came from very modest means. My mom was a teacher. My dad sold toilet seats and plumbing stuff to plumbers merchants and he traveled all around the UK in a car. The man worked himself to death. He's not dead, incidentally, but happy to have that conversation with a book called How to Die Happy. So we, my brothers and I all wanted something better, I think it's safe to say. So I was on that course from early on and it was all about what is my purpose. I'm gonna build a business, I'm gonna make £2 million and then I'm gonna retire when I went in my 30s or early 40s. I think I said something like that and then I'm gonna— Then I'm gonna what? Because the reality is actually in this day and age with it, with, with this, this, these ideas presented to us that this is all life is, not to get too meta on it, but, um, then we can find ourselves on the hamster wheel, laser focused to, to, to follow, get to achieve all of these milestones. But ultimately, what is it about? That's the question I'm asking. And that's the question I found, found myself asking. Is it about possessions? Is it about having a property here or a property there? Or is it being able to retire? What is retirement actually? You know, what is this idea that we have to work until we're 60, 70 and then we're allowed a bit of time off before we croak? Absolutely. The whole system, the whole model is absolutely insane. And thankfully it is breaking slowly but surely. But so for me, I, I thought you can only really have one or two purposes. And of course, when I didn't achieve them, I became very upset with myself and the world. And that continued to happen, you know, through my life, going through, going after milestone after milestone. And I was successful in business, but because I was such a broken humanoid, I managed to cause all sorts of problems with all my commercial partnerships as well. So I ended up leaving successful businesses at the wrong time without the right stakes and usually throwing a metaphorical hand grenade over my shoulder as well just to ensure that nobody followed me out the door. So I struggled with purpose for a long, long, long time. And actually here I am now, 47 years old, having had this Roller coaster of a life and had all the stuff and been to the places and had the companies and yada yada. And then, and had it and lost it, incidentally, had it and lost it or lost it in a different way, not necessarily through commercial catastrophe, more a case of personal misuse. And here I am now understanding that purpose isn't any of those things. And actually my newfound purpose, if you like, which I talk about in the book, is to be able to turn around to the rest of the world and say, hey, for what it's worth, probably don't do a lot of the stuff I did. Well, I mean, do it, but refine this, tweak that, you know, consider this, throw, pepper it with a bit of mindfulness and self-love. you know, and all the things, all the good things in the anatomy of happy. But along the way, I realized actually my purpose had to be completely redefined. But ultimately, whatever we do define as our purpose, if it doesn't come off, we also have to remember that, that, that is as impermanent as everything else in the world. So if we're not careful, we cling to our purpose like this, this next thing. It's another distraction then, isn't it? If we're not careful, I'm not saying everybody does this. But amidst that, I discovered the Japanese ikigai model and the ikigai model is a fantastic, actually really simple concept, actually almost too simple that it asks you to or invites you to evaluate what you're good at, what you love, what the world needs more of and for what you can be paid. And it's kind of like a converging Venn thing, isn't it? And there's a diagram of it in my book and you might find one. No, you won't find one on the website, but there's one in the book. You can find it. You can find ikigai anywhere. There's some great books about ikigai. But I think that's probably a useful thing for people to consider with purpose. If you are questioning your purpose, and I think so many of us are right now, I think a lot of people in the world are having these incredible, excuse me, conversations about who am I, who really am I, and how does that realization align with what I do for a living and the goals that I've set for myself. And I believe more often than not, when people have this internal conversation, they realize they are not aligned. So then there's a big old question about purpose. And it's a scary one, isn't it? So my only, I think my fundamental piece of advice for anyone doing that work is do the work, follow the Ikigai model, you know, get busy with all of that and ultimately remember the word work because we do still have to do that. That's the thing. Oh, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, but don't be surprised or disappointed if it doesn't go the way you want it to go. You know, because you're still here, you still got breath in your lungs, you still got love in your heart. Uh, and, and, and you are, at least you're analyzing these things so you can redefine, you can reposition. And I think that's the beautiful thing about this life. Sorry, what were you gonna say, Nick?

Oh, I, I was gonna say chapter 18, you titled it, or maybe you, it was a question, was The Matrix a documentary or something like that? And yeah, I think right now, 2023, there's a lot of content, especially in my feed, So that shows you what's being curated for me about breaking out of the matrix. And that's how my journey in this world of personal development started. I read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. He says reality is negotiable. You don't have to play by society's rules. You can make up your own. I started to make up my own. They worked. It was more fulfilling. And so it plays into that icky guy model. And also Luke's journey with Book Thinkers started, well, I'll let him tell a couple of different stories, but the one that I wanted to sum up, we had a conversation once when he was evaluating whether or not to stay in his past position where he said, you know what, there are a lot of different currencies in life. There's financial currency, and I'm making a lot of that one right now, but there's also culture currency. There's day-to-day happiness currency, and I'm lacking some of those things right now. And Book Thinkers might be a better place for me. to play in that world and I might get paid better in those currencies with you. So maybe I'll try that. And yeah, so it just reminds me of the purpose subject that you were talking about. That was my little ramble for the day or my 5th ramble for the day.

Well, I'm with you. So tell me if I'm rambling as well, but that's a beautiful observation though, because then you're having Conversations with yourself about what matters, you know, what really does matter in life. Because I talk about the top 10 deathbed regrets or anecdotal top 10 deathbed regrets in the book. And I think that when you look at some of these things that people are saying in the latter stages of life, I wish I hadn't spent so much time at work and I wish I'd done this and I wish I'd done that. It's so heartbreaking because you can see how people have been focused on all of these. I don't want to use the word wrong because there's no wrong or right here, is there? But these things that ultimately they realized in the end never mattered. And we're all guilty of this. I'm guilty of this as well. Obviously, I'm conscious when I have these conversations and I write this book I'm guilty of all of this stuff. So there is no judgment here. The fundamental point is that we can, if we exercise and engage a little bit more awareness, we can maybe not do this as much. And then we can focus some of that time, attention, energy on something that really does mean, that does have more of an intrinsic value. For example, meditation. That might sound crazy, but, you know, like I worked my, I worked myself to the bone for years and years and years and years. And I would, I would be the first one in and the last one out. And as we all are as founders and entrepreneurs, this, this is just standard stuff, isn't it? Nobody ever told me, actually, if you just stop for half an hour and, and just meditate, wow, what a gift you are giving to yourself. And I mean, it is, it's an absolute gift. It's, I love meditating. I, you know, I'm excited about meditating because it's, I'm stepping into a ritual of self-care and self-love. I can't remember, there's a, somebody asked the Buddha once what he got out of meditating. I can't, he essentially lists all of these incredible benefits to do with mindfulness and good health and then, you know, drops the mic. But at no point did I ever realize that actually such self-love and mindfulness could be so enriching for us. Yet it's, you know, you can't hang it on the wall and you can't wear it on your wrist and you can't drive it up the street. Anyway, I'm rambling again, Nick.

I love the rambles. It's, we're learning a lot, so I appreciate it for sure. And You know, you mentioned the things like meditation. Nick was mentioning my story a little bit, and I just, I've seen so many people in my life like work so hard, work to the, like, just like you said, to the bone every single day, day in, day out, day in, day out, day in, day out. Some people have some things to show for it, like Ferraris and big houses, and others have nothing to show for it. Like they don't have the big house because they mismanaged their money or whatever, whatever happened, transpired in their life that they don't have anything. But both of these people are in the same place, like mentally and spiritually. They're just lost and broken. And I noticed that like just in my journey, it was the same thing. I'm like, what am I doing here? Like, what am I doing at this job? I'm not having an impact on anybody. I'm not very happy. And since starting with Book Thinkers, I have more free time with my family. I can travel a little bit more. There's— I'm doing a lot more that fulfills me, and I can actually get up and spend 15 minutes meditating. So I'm not like rushing up and having to do the— do all this stuff. I can actually sit down and meditate and meditate. And yeah, I, I love— and I'm forgetting what the Buddha says about it, about meditation too, but there are a lot of benefits. And like one of the biggest ones is that you can sit back and, and just kind of observe your thoughts and emotions and feelings without having this visceral reaction to them right away. And that was like one of the big benefits that I noticed early on even in meditation. It was just like, oh wow, I don't have to react to this emotion. I don't have to react to this depressed feeling. I don't have to react to this anxiety. I can still continue on. So for anybody that's on defense of, uh, on meditating, it's, it's hugely beneficial in a lot of ways. Um, yeah, man, I cannot believe I'm looking at the time. We're, we're almost at an hour here. I'm like, I was like, oh, maybe it's been 20 minutes and I just look at the time. Oh shoot.

So I don't have a hard stop today, by the way, Luke. I don't know if you do.

I don't know. I can, I could go all night, which is a little dangerous.

Well, it's 6 in the morning for me, so I'm—

Yeah. Oh, you got the whole day.

Literally has all day.

Oh man. Yeah.

It's, where were we? So we were talking about meditation, the gift, the, don't get me wrong. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to have nice stuff. Something I'm keen to point out in the, because in the book, I do, I probably get a little bit dangerously close to a rant. But fundamentally, just because all I'm trying to say is, look, there are so many choices that you can make in life to change your life's direction. And some of us are fortunate enough to have the money. to do that. And some of us started with nothing and earned that money. So we might not take it for granted. Although in my experience, it tends to be once you have a lot of money and you live that kind of lifestyle, you very quickly forget the opposing reality of not having any. So, but if we're not If, if, if we're not conscious of the fact that, uh, the more money we have, the more milestones we're setting, the more we are just going out to consume more and more, then we're lost. We're lost on a, in a dream spell. And, and this whole, this whole existence, the Matrix, is a dream spell. Depending on your perspective and Uh, and, and perhaps one for another podcast conversation. It's a simulation. And, uh, so we have to ask ourselves, what do we want to do while we're here? And, and this is really why, why I'm, I'm talking about that big question, who am I? Because I, I am not, uh, Martin O'Toole, uh, author and podcaster. I am not Martin O'Toole, uh, recovered addict and alcoholic. I'm not this guy who lives in Bali. We've got to dig deeper and deeper and deeper. And in digging deeper, of course, the more inward we go, the less focused we are on anything material. That's the point. And it's like that quote from Rumi about roots and branches and roots. So yeah, I'm certainly not putting down the idea of liking nice stuff, but I am saying be mindful of your wasteful approach to it. And up to consumption. I think that's the fundamental point.

Yeah, I love that, Nick. Sorry. Yeah, I'm just, now I'm hogging.

Take the red pill, everybody. Take the red pill. I, I think we should spend the next, however long it goes, 15, 20, 30 minutes and wrap up the podcast with the subject of plant medicine. You only introduce us to your thoughts on plant medicine in the book, but it's going to be a big subject of your next book. It is the next book that you're writing. So let's talk a little bit about plant medicine. And I guess my introductory question is, why do you think politicians should have 10 ayahuasca sessions before they're allowed to take office and represent people?

Yeah, I do say that in the book, don't I? Why do I think politicians— well, fundamentally, I believe everybody should, but I think if we agree that politicians are the so-called best of us representing our collective in all the ways they do and should, I think it's absolutely imperative that these people have a completely alternative perspective on life, love, and the universe. And that perspective can only really be attained in a couple of ways. One would be transcendental meditation in a cave for 20 years, and the other would be working with psychedelics. Why? Because psychedelic medicines enable us to deconstruct our ego. So obviously we've talked about our, our mindful approach to, to deconstructing ego and, and our own daily work that, that that, that we're putting into, um, into play to observe, uh, our own actions and words and thoughts and, and do our best to, to shift that, which is great, right? That's fantastic that we're all doing that. Um, but the medicines do it in a completely different way.

It— they—

as my shaman friend, one of my shaman friends always says, when you do the work with the ayahuasca, for example, you may not get what you want but you'll always get what you need, uh, which— and he always says with a cheeky smile, just as— just, just before you drink the ayahuasca brew. The point being that actually unconscious— consciously we might, we might be aware of this, that, and the other aspects of our ego, but actually unconsciously and subconsciously unconsciously, there are, there are still lots of aspects of self, uh, egoic traits trauma and our response and our personality response to trauma that we actually have little idea of, or we're not entirely clear about it. So plant medicines, um, are a way to— like a laser-cut key, if you like— to open doors that you might never be able to open, uh, living a regular lifestyle on planet Earth. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm pleased to be talking about them with you because one of the things we must, must, must do now is have significantly more sensible conversations about psychedelics. People have been programmed. They've been programmed by, by propaganda for, for decades. And this propaganda, regardless of, of its, its The meaning behind this propaganda. Um, we've been told that, uh, psychedelics are drugs in inverted commas, and drugs are bad. Okay, as the dude in South Park says. Well, first and foremost, they're not drugs. They are actually medicines. Uh, and there are many reasons why we could discuss— we could discuss why, uh, they've been vilified and criminalized, but probably not practical in this conversation, I don't think. Besides, many, many people have talked about it. I talk about it in the book, so help yourselves to that information. The, the fundamental point is now finally this psychedelic renaissance is, is, is upon us, and it's, it's, it's, it's gathering speed. And, uh, America is a classic example where you've got 12 or 13, maybe 15 cities now, uh, that have decriminalized psychedelics. Um, and worldwide there are all sorts of governments and medical authorities now working in a different way in a decriminalized space so that these medicines can be used in clinical trials. FYI, I think that's all nonsense anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the idea that you can criminalize or privatize nature is an absolute absurdity to me, and I do not need a government or a medical board or health authority to tell me whether I'm— whether I can work with natural plant medicines that the indigenous people have been working with for thousands of years. All that to say, we must work with these medicines responsibly. That's an absolute key. And I think part of this misunderstanding around psychedelics, and I, I think the reason why it's been so easy for governments and health authorities to vilify them is because some people go crazy with them because they're not working with these medicines properly. They're just, they're, they're consuming them recreationally, uh, or to get out of their heads, you know, using them the same way you would use, uh, any other Class A drug to distract yourself from the reality of things. But be under no illusion, folks, there is nothing addictive about psychedelic medicines. And I'm, I'm speaking as a recovered addict and alcoholic. So I'm gonna call authority on this one. What they do is reach deep into your subconscious unconscious, pull out these memories one by one, some immensely traumatic, and offer this incredible perspective that can only be provided by such a thing. Um, Anyway, I, I'm a, I'm a bit of an evangelist when it comes to plant medicine. So do, do tell me to, to pipe down if you need me to.

Well, I'm curious, and then I'll kick it over to Luke. How many ayahuasca ceremonies have you been through and how many times have you consumed psilocybin in a, yeah, that, that's my question. How many times? Have you gone through an ayahuasca ceremony and how many times have you consumed psilocybin in a quantity that creates hallucinations?

Yeah, I, that's a good question. Ayahuasca, I think I've done around 15 ceremonies, something like that. Uh, I also sit in ceremony as a facilitator, uh, serving the, uh, the medicine, the Hapéh or Hrapéh as some people call it. Uh, and in those ceremonies, I'll, I'll only consume a little bit of the medicine just so I'm on the same vibration as, as people in the space. Um, psilocybin— countless, countless journeys with psilocybin. I've, I've, uh, I consider myself a, a fairly well-traveled psychonaut when it comes to psilocybin, uh, ayahuasca, and also San Pedro, the cactus, uh, huachuma, which is, um, mescaline. Sorry, my dog's going crazy because the Cleaners turned up. Um, so I've done a lot of work with these medicines, and all of it has been in, uh, in the right set, the right setting, and with the right guides. It's a fundamental point to make. That said, having done quite a lot of work with it, I, I now do, uh, work with psilocybin alone, have done for some time. Um, all of it's been high dose, in answer to your question, Nick. So, uh, Terence McKenna said anything less than 5 grams of mushrooms is tourism. Uh, now Terence McKenna was a bit of a— it was a pioneer, but I, I certainly wouldn't recommend that anybody just dives into using psilocybin with a, with a 5-gram dose, uh, first off the bat, for sure. But the point is, I've, I've used I've used all of these medicines to— as part of my healing journey, not just because I felt like getting out of my head, or, you know, whatever, whatever expression, uh, people might use, uh, in a negative context. And every time I've done one of those journeys, they've provided incredible insights into either my past, my present, my future. Get your head around that. I mean, you, you end up doing Pretty interesting metaphysical stuff with these medicines. Uh, I've healed lots and lots of past trauma. I, I put my work with ayahuasca specifically down to putting an end to any addictive tendencies. I, I don't call myself a recovering, uh, addict or alcoholic. I rarely actually refer my— to myself as a recovered addict or alcoholic other than in the context of conversations like this. 'Cause people need to understand who wrote the book. For example, I, I'm, I don't have that problem anymore. I don't have that addiction anymore. And that's all down to ayahuasca plant medicine.

So incredible to hear. I, I wanted to ask, and you may have kind of already answered this, but, um, did you see like any diminishing returns the more, the more trips you went on? Did you see any diminishing returns or did, did you still feel like you got everything out of it that you, that you needed to every single time?

Great question. Uh, 99% of the time I, I always see something different, receive some new information. I mean, the thing about these medicines is they work on, on different levels. So on the one hand, you've got this phenomenal PTSD healing, uh, aspect of it. And, and there are many, many studies written about this, incidentally, folks, and I, and I highlight a number of them in the, in the book. But there is so much, so much information to be found out there to prove that these medicines are literally eradicating mental illness. But on the flip side, there is a whole other aspect of doing work with these medicines. You are, believe my words or not, you are getting out of your body. You are leaving this plane. You are leaving this plane of existence and moving into other planes where there is no need for a body, where entities exist in a different way, where, where there's telepathy, where there's unity consciousness. Um, where, uh, and then the crazy thing, uh, that's often reported by a lot of people working with ayahuasca in particular, and I can also confirm this, is you are greeted by entities who welcome you back. Or welcome you home. Perhaps that's a better way to explain it. And that was a shocker for me the first time that happened because, um, obviously I wasn't aware that I, I had another home other than planet Earth, uh, in the, in the 20th/21st century. So there are, there are myriad aspects to working with, with plant medicines, and ultimately once you've done the the deep work, the healing work, which I've done, then you're free to do the more psychonautical flexing, for want of a better word. But every time you work with those medicines, there's neurogenesis to this as well as science behind the neurogenesis of psilocybin, for example. So you are improving your body and mind when you work with these medicines anyway, but also you bring it back. And this is a key point to make about working with psychedelics, is integration. And I thoroughly recommend people check it out as a whole other subject, because the idea is not to spend every weekend in the astral, uh, you know, speaking to some entities about fixing your, your emotional or physical injuries, um, and then, and then you're back to it, and you're back to it, and you're back to it. That's not the point. The point is to, to do the medicine ceremony, to pick up a long list of lessons, uh, and then to, to work with it, to meditate through it, to sit with it. You maybe work with a guide, an integration guide, or a therapist. There are psychedelic-assisted therapists you can, you can work with so that you can integrate these lessons back into real life. Because this is the point, it's not about escapism. I, and I don't advocate the use of psychedelics to escape. Far from it. My use of psychedelics and, and, and everyone in the, in the, in a huge medicine community of which I'm now a member, and I, and I mean a global community incidentally, I've got people all over the world now with whom I've sat in ceremonies. They all work with these medicines so that they can enjoy a significantly more improved human experience.

So for people who are interested in experiencing one of these psychedelic journeys, where do they go? What do they do? How do they access it? I mean, it seems like Bali is a center for exploration. Boston, Massachusetts doesn't seem to be, at least not on the surface level. So what's the next step for somebody that's interested in learning more about these compounds?

Well, Bali actually, they criminalize all psychedelics here. So, uh, yeah, I mean, the island is, uh, is, is certainly an island for exploration where— and, um, and they— it just so happens that some of the best psilocybin mushrooms on the planet grow in the fields here. They are in abundance. Um, I certainly couldn't confirm or deny whether I, I'm involved in any plant medicine work in Bali. Um, but, uh, get yourselves down to Peru. That, that's my, my, my best piece of advice. Get to the Sacred Valley, uh, or, uh, down to Brazil. And I have some friends in the Nokiwin tribe, otherwise known as the Katukina tribe, in the Amazon basin in Brazil. I've had the great honor of, of, uh, sharing the medicine with, with a whole village, 55 people. From grandparents down to children, uh, and doing a medicine journey with those people. So, but in the Sacred Valley in Peru, you can work with the Shipibo or the Quechua, uh, shaman. You can do ayahuasca, you can work with the, uh, the San Pedro cactus, and you can do it in, in places and spaces where it's responsibly done. That's the fundamental point. And that, of course, as things roll out across the world, these, these medicines are gonna be decriminalized, but don't get too excited. Ultimately, this is all paving the way for Big Pharma to, to essentially synthesize these medicines and, and then start selling them at a premium. And I, I, I, I don't get me wrong, I love that. I, I want these medicines to be available to everyone because I've seen firsthand, and not just my own personal experience, but many, many, many other people with whom I've sat in ceremony. I've seen the truly transformative effects that these medicines have on, on broken psyches, um, and I believe the world deserves access to them. Funnily enough, that's probably why they just grow everywhere, isn't it? Isn't that a strange idea, that they're just already naturally distributed around the planet, yet they are— yet we, we are not allowed to, to work with Totally up to, I'm not suggesting, I'm not suggesting a, a whole scale revolution here, but what I am saying is just use some exercise, some common sense here, you know. These medicines are available everywhere, so you, you can get hold of 'em, but make sure that you have the right mindset, you work with them in the right setting, and you have the right guide. That's my, like the 3 fundamental rules to working with these medicines. And I think you, you guys should join me in the Sacred Valley and we should go and do an ayahuasca ceremony together.

I'm there.

Let's explore, let's explore my hesitancy, uh, real quick. So I became interested in psychedelics back in 2016, '17, and my first experience was a plus 5-gram psilocybin trip that had positive, mostly positive aspects, some negative aspects, and as well as microdosing psilocybin for periods of up to a couple of months. And I was always interested in an ayahuasca ceremony until I heard somebody interviewed on the Tim Ferriss Show say that his first experience was amazing and he feel like he healed a lot of the trauma that he was, that he had in his subconscious. And then his second experience undid all of that and reintroduced him to the trauma, and it became more prevalent in his life. And he used the metaphor, don't get an ACL surgery if your ACL isn't torn. And so, I sit in this space because of all of these books and the meditation and the mindfulness and all of it. I sit in this space of happiness all the time. I don't experience anxiety very often, and I don't experience any form of depression. I'm the happiest guy I know. And so I just wonder if I go through an ayahuasca experience with you in the Sacred Valley, what's gonna happen if things get undone and I start to experience what everybody else is trying to get away from?

Well, that's a great question. I, I suppose going back to the ACL observation, quite right. If there is no trauma, to heal, then there's a, there's a big question over whether or not you even need to work with those medicines. Although I was interested to hear that the second time, then a lot of trauma came up, which sounds to me then there was, sounds to me like there perhaps was a, a broken ACL, um, that he just managed to forget all about. But I don't know, I'm not, I'm not familiar with this story. The point is, with these medicines, you, you're really working with these medicines for, I think, for one of two reasons. One, For the healing, the emotional, the physical, um, that, that, that whole aspect of fixing, uh, mind and body, uh, and, and, and regaining the, the, the love for that relationship. But then 2 is more of a spiritual exploration. It is, it's, you cannot possibly do, uh, serious work with ayahuasca without really having to, to ask some massive questions about, about what is reality and, and about how real this all is versus, um, the, the myriad experiences you will have and places, for want of a better word, you will, you will visit when you do these medicines. So there's the, the whole spiritual aspect is a, is a, is a different facet altogether, isn't it? And so the— excuse me— the question then remains, am I happy? Um, and I'm not questioning your happiness, by the way, Nick. I, I'm, I feel your vibe for sure, and I'm in the same space, but obviously I, I do a lot of work with these medicines as well. But so it's a, it's a question of, am I happy with my existence in the Matrix? Um, playing the game as I do and knowing that it's, uh, knowing that it's a system of control. And so, you know, I'm kind of— I, I can, I can make those moves as well. Well, or, but what's my relationship with spirit? What's my relationship with anything that's not form? When I say form, you know, I mean matter. Um, because there's a whole other question, isn't there? A whole other conversation to have, isn't there? Not, not teeing myself up for a third podcast here, but there's a whole other conversation to have here. And that is, uh, about death, about life after death. Death, about our understanding of that. And actually, if we embody the idea that there is life after death— reincarnation, for example, as a concept which I discuss in the book— what does that do to my approach to life? Because there's no, there's no two ways about it. Once you, once you develop a— some people call it a faith structure or a belief structure. I, I don't think it's either of those things. I think it's, it's, for me, it's intrinsic knowledge because of the places that I've been with these medicines, um, you absolutely change your perspective of, of being alive. Uh, and it's, it's very hard to explain. Um, but it's certainly— I certainly put my work with psychedelics down to my intrinsic happiness. You know, this idea— somebody, obviously, since I've written this book, people are asking me what to define happiness. I'm saying, well, I've written, you know, there's a 354-page book. You can, you can check that out. But I think happiness is, is an equanimity. It's a, it's a state of mind, body, and spirit. Uh, it's about achieving a balance between all 3 and also understanding that they are subject to impermanence. as much as my understanding of the concept of happiness. That is to say that I can't always be happy. It's impossible because happiness is impermanent as everything else. But in knowing that and truly understanding impermanence on a metaphysical level, then I actually can still be happy. happy because I fully appreciate the impermanence of everything. And I certainly got lessons about this working with psychedelics. Now, of course, a Buddhist monk would say to you, yeah, I get that, I've got those lessons doing meditation and being a Buddhist monk. And that's absolutely spot on. Of course, there is no right or wrong way to do this, is there? Um, so ultimately you could, you could achieve the same levels of enlightenment and awareness through qigong, yoga, meditation. You wouldn't need to, wouldn't need to work with psychedelics. Although, uh, after we finish the conversation, do a bit of research on, on what Buddhist monks say when they've worked with psychedelics, because that's, uh, that's interesting.

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm picking up what you're putting down, and like I've expressed, I've always been interested in further exploration. So yeah, we'll have to continue that conversation. And yeah, meditation. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, the spectrum that I see is maybe meditation happens minute by minute, hour by hour. Sensory deprivation float tank meditation maybe happens in 10-hour increments, 20-hour increments in terms of like it's an accelerated pace. And psychedelics might cut 1,000 hours off of practice. So that's cool. Luke, I know this is a huge subject for you as well, and maybe we only have like 15 minutes left, so I want to make sure that you could talk too.

Yeah, that's all right. We can wrap it up whenever. Like, I've just been really enjoying this whole conversation. I think too, Nick, there's something there about— I was thinking about attachment to travel and success, you know, like the standard success that you want to achieve and that I want to achieve. which I think is driven a little bit by money. So there's something there too. Maybe that eventually we can dig a little bit deeper on, but yeah.

Yeah, I think it, we, we've all to evaluate our relationship with money. Obviously it's a component of the system in which we exist. So we, you know, we can't do without it, so to speak. But I see money as stored energy. And yeah, I'm not gonna get into the whole house of cards about fiat currency and, you know, and versus crypto versus the illusion of money because that's a whole other podcast too. But yeah, we need money. The question is how much time, attention, and energy do we want to put into accruing it and what will we do with it? After that, I think what's interesting now, and you talked about Tim Ferriss earlier on, what's happening now worldwide is quite fascinating because of course, employers all over the world have finally realized that they can't keep people tethered to desks Monday to Friday, 9 to 5. You know, we weren't built and we weren't designed to do that. And obviously we've been shackled for decades. rather successfully. Well, hundreds of years really rather successfully by this system. But now we're breaking out and we're able to say, actually, I don't wanna work in the office. I'm gonna go, actually, I don't even wanna work in this country. I still wanna work for you, but I wanna work on the other side of the world. So I commit to this job description and achieving these goals on a weekly basis. Frankly, what time I do it and what day I do it, it's got broadly fuck all to do with you. And I think that's a wonderful shifting dynamic. And I actually love the fact that many employers are saying, yeah, boom, I love what you just said there, buddy. Yeah, I'll catch up with you on Friday to see what you've been up to. So things are changing in a whole other way. And as the studies are already showing, people's fascination with money is waning as a result of that. And people are are and now looking at things like minimalism in a new way because they're saying, hang on a minute, if I want to have 3 days a week where I, I don't know, do yoga and hike up mountains, then what do I need? How much? What's the minimum amount of money that I need to get in to have that lifestyle? And then by that rationale, what am I consuming on a regular basis that's just burning through cash? I mean, and let's talk about the basics, you know, beer, alcohol, sorry, beer, cigarettes, one too many Netflix-type subscriptions, you know, the payments on the car, the payments on the house, for some people, layaway payments on furniture, et cetera. And yet the minute you start to rack these things up, you think, geez, hang on a minute, I'm actually I'm actually going from paycheck to paycheck and just the money comes in and then it goes out to pay all, to pay for all this stuff that isn't mine. It's absolutely insane really when you think about it in those terms. So an easy way to help our mental health, like literally improve our mental health overnight, is to do an audit of that stuff and go, do I need the cigarettes? No, I don't. Yeah, I do need them. No, you don't. Don't be ridiculous. Have a word with yourself. No more cigarettes. Do I need that beer? Yeah, I like the beer buzz. No, you don't actually need beer. I appreciate that you like beer, but how much beer are you consuming? By the way, I'm not being anti-alcohol here. I'm a pretty chilled out recovered alcoholic, but ultimately when you start to calculate how much money you literally piss away down a drain on a weekly basis after consuming alcohol, it is absolutely mind-blowing. Sorry, go on.

Oh, I was going to say, I call that cutting unhealthy spending. You're cutting unnecessary spending, but it's on things that make you unhealthy. So cigarettes and alcohol are great examples. Fast food, bad food, those are other great examples. Memberships to Netflix that keep you in the chair longer. And I mean, that's another example of unhealthy spending. So you're spending money to be less healthy. It's kind of a funny way to look at it.

Isn't it? You're spending money on self-harm. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, it's true. And the byproduct of all of that spending money on self-harm is more self-harm because you're depressed because you don't have choices. So actually we can all live with a lot less. And this is why the minimalists are, and minimalism as a concept is so profound and probably deserve more space in the book in reality. But Yeah. So that's money and our relationship with it. And our relationship with money and material things is a great source of mental illness, hugely so. And I talk about the stats in the book, the depression figures related to this stuff, but it is, it's putting us in graves early. So I wholly invite people to just evaluate that wholesale. And that's just to round up because I'm conscious we've, we've, we've wittered on. The whole point of this book is to say there is no one aspect that you can focus on if you want to achieve everlasting happiness. All of these things, everything that we do, everything around us that plugs us into this system in which we live affects our happiness. So we've got to audit the whole shebang. And actually the things we're talking about at the latter side of this podcast, you know, money consumption, so on and so forth, they're the basics. That's kind of the, maybe the scary thing. Because for a lot of these, for a lot of people listening, they're not basic. It's, oh, hang on, you're asking me to change the way I consume. You're asking me to do what to change what I'm spending my money on. And I fully appreciate that. I fully appreciate wherever you are is wherever you are, and you've got to just tackle it wherever you are. Um, but this is the basic stuff. This is the matter-related stuff. Once you get that out of the way, then you're diving in to do the deep work, do the self-realization, learn how to forgive, learn how to love yourself, learn how to connect with people and then get that daily practice, that anatomy of happy that I'm talking about with awareness, acceptance, gratitude, and presence. That's what you bring into your daily practice. But you have to have done all of that other shitty stuff that we just spent a couple of hours talking about to have smiles like Nick and I and Luke.

That's right, man. Well, this has been, this has been an awesome conversation. And just a little bit to wrap it up, I, a big theme for myself and my journey has been detachment. And it's, it's like detachment from things, detachment from money, detachment with a really big one, it's detachment from other people's opinions of me and other people's thoughts of me, which has been the most difficult part of my journey, I'd say. And We're all on that journey, right? We're all on this journey. And I just appreciate your part that you're playing in the world, Martin. It's been awesome, awesome talking to you. Just such a joy. And like I said at the beginning of this podcast, and I'll say at the end of this podcast too, the book is amazing. And I haven't finished it yet, but I'm going to finish it tonight. I only have a few more chapters left. And man, if you're in a stuck place or in a weird place in your life, like, this book is a great place to start, to, um, start realizing the, the craziness of the matrix of what you're stuck in. Um, so I appreciate you putting, putting the work in, Martin, for yourself, and then also for writing this book for us, uh, because it's gonna help a lot of people and change a lot of people's lives for sure.

You've, uh, you've touched me Yeah, Luke, because that's fundamentally why I wrote it. And we talked about purpose. Ultimately, I reevaluated my purpose along this journey over the last few years and realized I want to spend the second half of my life in service to others. And when I started writing this book, as worthy as it might sound, I said, if this book helps one person, then it was worth writing. So you're the second, you're the third person who said that to me in 2 days.

So there you go.

I just need a million people to like it, then perhaps I can change my career.

Well, Martin, we will see you in Peru for episode number 3.

Amazing.

And, uh, can't wait for the next book.

There we go.

Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for your time, attention, energy, and your love. Uh, love what you're doing and, um, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, Please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.