158. Soumana Ammar | Without Your Job Title, Who Are You?

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Sumana Omar, author of Without Your Job Title, Who Are You? Sumana is an entrepreneur, the founder of Step Coaching. She has a photography business, is also a speaker, hospitality executive, and bestselling author. Sumana's personal purpose is to live in a world where people live their lives to their extreme potential, guided by their abilities, mastering their strengths and achieving their dreams one step at a time. She brings incredible energy to this conversation, and if you're struggling with overcoming negative beliefs, habits, and thought patterns, you'll get a lot out of this great episode. Through this conversation, you'll learn about ways to pivot during hard times, about the power of gratitude, why it's important to reframe how you look at perceived negative events, the importance of having the right tools in place when you get caught up or stuck in old patterns, practical tips for your self-development journey, how books reflect who you are in this moment, why learning can be fun, and a glimpse of who you are without your job title. Now, get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Sumanah Amar.

Sumanah, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you feeling today?

Excited to be here with you, Nick.

I'm excited to be here with you as well. And you are calling in from Dubai. So, you are the 3rd podcast guest that we've had from Dubai, funny enough.

That's amazing. Yeah, we need to grow that.

Yeah, we do. I can't wait to come visit. We're obviously here to talk about your book today, and I'd like to read the last 2 sentences from your acknowledgments to kick off the show today. I have it highlighted.

Okay.

So you give acknowledgments to a whole bunch of people and things that have happened in your life, but you end it like this. You say, quote, above all, my heart is filled with gratitude to life with all its adventures. Gratitude is where life gives life to life, end quote. So tell me a little bit about the importance of gratitude in your life and why you decided to put it in your acknowledgments.

Oh, what? Wow, that's a great question, and thank you for going through all the acknowledgments. I think it's like 3 pages.

Yes.

For all those people who have made an impact in my life or throughout that period. Gratitude plays a very important role personally in my life because it's, it's about how I pers— I look at things from, from that perspective. So you could be walking around and seeing things that are going wrong, or you could be walking around and seeing things that are going right. So there is a two-way for looking at things. I tend to always lean on gratitude whenever I need to have some grounding, reassurance, or the little things or the little blessings that we have in our life that sometimes we tend to forget. So gratitude has been part of my reflections, of my meditations, of my journaling. It's kind of the— I mean, it's great to really be alive and look at everything that's going on amazingly in our life. If we tend to go around and look for problems, there is no lack of issues. Just go in the traffic. And that's everywhere around the world. So it's just a perception, um, of how we want to look at things.

Yeah, that's very true. If you try to go find problems, you will find problems. And I heard somebody say recently, it was on maybe a video on Instagram or something, they said, imagine you woke up tomorrow and everything that you've never expressed gratitude for disappeared. It went away. And I thought, wow, that's pretty powerful. We have to express gratitude for the things that truly bring us joy in life. So you mentioned reflections and journaling. The audience at BookThinkers, we love actionable tips and takeaways. So do you have any recommendations for people how to get more gratitude in their life? Do you have any journaling prompts or daily practices that you could talk about?

Well, I am an early morning kind of journalist. So I journal when I wake up in the morning. So there is always the tips of 3 things that you are grateful for, you to do it in the morning or probably to do it before you sleep, like whatever works for anybody. These are great. There are some meditations that I specifically love, like the gratitude meditations of Deepak Chopra. I'm a big follower of his. I even quote him a lot in my book as well. So he has like these 21 days of meditation, gratitude meditation, where you basically link into your gracefulness as well. So this is something that I look at. Or like, it can just be simply just deciding that today I'm gonna be looking for 3 things that I'm grateful for throughout my day. And it could be just like the sun is rising up nicely, or a colleague has really helped me with something. I am grateful for just being alive or walking around, like little things. Um, some— I have a gratitude jar that was given to me a number of years ago as a gift, so I have those cards that I sometimes put. So it's different ways, but just the Gratitude journal is a very strong one that I would recommend people to really follow.

Yeah, I love that. That's how I started too, and I'll show you how crazy I am. I even have the numbers one, two, and three tattooed on my wrist as a reminder to journal three things that I'm grateful for every day. So I'm right there with you.

That's a great reminder.

So from a post-it note to your Yeah, you'll read about, you'll read about that whole story of like how I ended up with the tattoo in Rise of the Reader, but it's a lot of fun.

So I cannot wait to have a copy of that. Yeah.

So back to you though, uh, in the introduction to the book, so right after the acknowledgments, you kick off with a question. Without your job title, who are you? And you mentioned a couple sentences later, you said, we get conditioned throughout the years that titles represent our identity. Now, I think probably more than anywhere else in the world, we are guilty of that over here in the United States because no matter where I go, I could be at a networking event, which would be a little bit more obvious, but I could be at a Christmas party. I could be at a football game. It doesn't matter. Hey, what do you do? That's the first question that people ask. So why did you decide to write a book on this subject? When did you start thinking about how closely we attach our identity to the job that we have?

Yeah, uh, well, that's a great question, and I'm happy that this question is actually internationally acknowledged, uh, because the question is actually what was addressed to me. So the title of the book is a question that I have asked myself during the pandemic when I started to see like a lot of people losing their jobs and losing their sense of identity. In the book, I call it an authenticity crisis of myself because I luckily did not lose my job. I'm a hotelier. However, I was also going through some accreditation when it comes to coaching. And I was— so let's assume I am part of those people who would not be having that job. What do I represent? Because you're known in a certain industry. So I was asking this question to myself. And it, it was kind of a wake-up call for me. And this whole identity, authenticity of what do I represent was asked to myself. Hence the, without your job title, who are you?

Yeah, I was actually— so we're recording this on a Monday morning, and every Sunday night my whole family gets together at my parents' house because they live about 25 minutes away from me. And we all sit down and we have a Sunday night dinner. And my mom, of course, watches some Book Thinkers content from time to time. And she actually brought this subject up at dinner last night. She said, you know, that was a really good question. It made me pause and stop and say, I am a mother, you know, and like all of these things that aren't related to her job, which, I mean, now she's been working for 40-plus years, you know, it gets embedded into your identity in a big way. So I also—

oh, go ahead. Your mom commented on your LinkedIn post.

Oh, she did?

About the book, and she said, I am your mom. And I thought it was so sweet. Like, I mean, she represented very proudly, which is amazing. So regards to your mom.

Yeah, so everybody listening, go check out that LinkedIn post and like her comment, show her some love, and also watch the video because it was a good one. Yeah. And, you know, COVID was a really interesting time for my business and my identity as well, because just like you mentioned, a lot of people lost their jobs during the beginning of the pandemic. They were furloughed, they were laid off. And what I noticed running a personal development book community and podcast was that there was a big flow of people into this industry because they realized for the first time maybe that they didn't love the job that they were working.

Yes.

And now that they had some separation and some distance from it, they could reset, they could change directions, they could pivot. So why don't you tell us about the LinkedIn article that you wrote all about pivoting and sort of how it cemented this idea for you? Yes.

Oh, that's amazing. So prior to COVID, I actually was learning how to dance tango. And when you're dancing tango, they tell you like to pivot because you just move around. And do during the time of COVID I really had a lot of like self-reflection moments and a lot of things that I was doing by listening to podcasts, reading extra books. You have extra time on your hand, right? And the pivot article that I've written on LinkedIn was me kind of choosing not to say that this is a COVID-19. I call it, it's a pivot 2020 because this is the time where you're basically turning around and pivoting because there are times when we pause And we ask ourselves, is this a rejection of what's going on in my life, or is it a redirection? So my reflection was, no, it's a redirection. I'm pivoting in my life towards completely different things when I was reflecting, and I chose to actually write about it on LinkedIn to really also give a little bit of hope to other people who were going through the same emotions back then. And yeah, I actually put that article in, in, in the book. Yeah.

Yeah, I loved reading it. I can read a couple of them. I'll just read some of the first statements that you made to everybody, and then we'll also link that article if you can send it to us, or that post in the show notes below so people can check it out. But here it goes. So I'll go right to the bullet points. I will pivot. I will take a step back and look inside my heart and choose the perspective I want to see in the future with. By the way, I love that one because I heard a quote years ago that said something like, you can choose. So there's a choice here. You can choose to view every situation in life through the lens that benefits you the most. So why would you ever choose to look at Pivot 2020 as anything other than an opportunity, right? So I love that. I'll read one more. I will pivot. I will open my mind to new ideas, which is closely related to personal development. So let me pivot back to the first chapter here. There's something that I highlighted that I really loved where you said self-development, investing in yourself, is directly associated with self-awareness. And I couldn't agree more. So Tell us what you mean by that. Why did you decide to write that in the book?

Because we tend to actually not spend a lot of time on self-awareness. Um, we, we always tie our personal development to everything that is related to whatever they tell you to do. If you're working, it's also your— it's always like, hey, fill in a personal development plan where you need to develop on some skill sets. Right? But then they don't let you— like, I mean, how do you really deal with values? How do you deal with taking decisions in your life or even decisions in your workplace if you're leading your life or leading somebody else's life? You're kind of in a circle of impact, and you're whatever— like, you're currently doing— like, I admire what you do with all these books. I was like, he's gonna look behind me. I don't have that big library. So that's my little library. So, um, there is books hiding in those. So it's, it's like, you know, you're, you're really like advancing, you're spending time. And then I guarantee you that when you're reading or you're listening or you're spending time with people who kind of are like-minded, you're having discussions that are kind of, uh, probably enriching your mind, your soul, and of course touching your heart, you'll be basically developing. So self-awareness is being driven through self-development because this is the moment where you're having development moments in your life towards different parts of your development journey, and you become more and more aware. Because like, for example, now you just read the iPivot article, and then there were things that resonated with you. And I guarantee there's gonna— they're gonna be like, oh, I've heard that. And you just refer to something that you've heard. This has been adding to your self-development journey, and it gives you more awareness of what you like and what you don't like, what you resonate with, what you don't resonate with. guiding you towards your, your path.

Yeah, I think so too. Awareness is something that— I'll admit this, I don't think I was aware of anything prior to the age of 20. I just sort of cruised through life like I was not doing any type of self-reflection. I was never thinking about my life almost from like a third-party perspective. And so awareness has been— awareness and emotional intelligence have become 2 of the biggest changes in my life since I started reading books like this. And I want to show everybody just a little preview, although it's kind of hard to do, but you have little graphics that have been made, like little pieces of art for some of these important messages. How many are in the book? Do you know how many, uh, how many little sketches?

And no, I don't, I don't have the number. We've worked a lot on these illustrations. Uh, I, I mean, the illustrator was really very good at helping me to put it together. Uh, so I worked with somebody who's, um, kind of also passionate about development. I don't really know the number, uh, but, uh, yeah, I wanted them to just be like emphasized in different fonts too so that they can be reflected. My intention is to also make cards out of them and then people can just pick it up during the day or display it on certain places. So—

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a concept that I write about called play bigger triggers. Play Bigger Triggers are environmental cues that you kind of set up around your workspace, your bathroom mirror, wall art, your bookshelves that reinforce the person you're becoming and the concepts that you're learning. And so I really think you should put those cards out. That's a really good idea.

Yes, yes, yes. They're in the progress of being prepared. So they will be like, you know how you have affirmation cards? So I'm intending to do that so that they can always be a reminder for people.

Oh, that's a really good idea. I love it. And, uh, you know, 80% of the inputs to our brain are visual, and so reading is one form of a visual input, but seeing a piece of— seeing an illustration, it reinforces the material and it stores it in a different way. So I think that's really cool.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

All right, here's the next—

oh, go ahead. Sorry, the book was ready to be published, but I actually put it on hold until illustrations were ready. I felt there was something missing, so I'm glad that it's resonating.

Yeah, I sort of wish that I put more in my book because it's a really good idea and I like looking at them.

Yeah, version 2.

Like version 2. Yes, that's the benefit of being self-published so that, you know, you can make changes. Now let me ask you, why did you decide to go ahead and self-publish?

I actually got a publishing company to help me, like Self Publish. They're based in Australia, a great company. I've decided to do that, like I want to hold the rights for the book from myself, and they were kind of also— so I mean, I'm not an author, so the whole idea behind this company as well is that they help you. I had a book coach who was kind of guiding me throughout the process, so the whole package was part of that, and they did a great job with me. I mean, the illustrator was somebody I knew, but it gave me like the freedom of how I want to do things with the COVID and so many other details.

Well, you are an author now. Yes.

Yeah, an author is a title that nobody could take away from you. So without that title, you're still an author.

Yeah, that is very true. I never intended to be one either, but I think that most of the best books start that way. It's like you see, you see a need, you see people struggling with something, you have something valuable to say about it, You test it a little bit, people respond well, like with your LinkedIn article, and you go, you know what, I need to distribute this in a wider way. So that's cool. Here's the next quote that I have from your book. Overthinking is becoming the new way of thinking. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that people are just obsessed with being anxious and overthinking and all sorts of things like that? Hello, Book Thinkers family. A quick word from today's podcast sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, business, and my favorite, personal development. And as part of Audible's partnership with us, we're actually offering listeners a free 30-day trial. This trial includes one credit good for any premium selection titles you'd like on the whole platform. So that's pretty much any book, including the one we're talking about today. That book is yours to keep even after the trial is over. Now, this trial also includes access to Audible's Plus catalog of podcasts, audiobooks, guided wellness programs, and Audible Originals. You can listen all you want, no credits needed. Now, everyone on the Book Thinkers Instagram knows that I love physical paper books. There's nothing better than having a book in your hand, scribbling notes everywhere in the margins. I kind of tear those things up. But I've been completing an additional 20 to 30 books every single year using Audible by listening when I'm in the car, doing chores around the house, or while I'm on my morning walks or runs. You could take advantage of this free trial by clicking the link in today's show notes or going to www.bookthinkers.com/audibletrial. You will not regret it. Now back to today's episode.

I mean, so social media has played a very important, great role in that because we tend to also compare ourselves with everyone else. So we start to overthink like what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong. There is like competitiveness in the way that we do things. So we lose track of purpose. I mean, being anxious about things, sometimes it's also like healthy because that also keeps you a little bit on track with being warned about things as they come along. But when it's becoming like an obsessive part of your life, it becomes— it doesn't— like, as long as you're aware that it's not serving you, this is the right time to basically reflect on it. But I mean, it's just the whole comparison of, um, of, uh, with other people. This is one part, and the other part is because we have a lot of beliefs that have been embedded in, in, in us as we grew, uh, in our life, right? So there are some beliefs that are disempowering, that are limiting, and then we tend to overthink about them. So there is also that aspect of, uh, of overthinking, and instead of like thinking and moving back to gratitude and reflecting. So I kind of catch myself sometimes when I'm overthinking about something. This means like I've probably lost balance of my go-to tools to kind of reflect or just like ground myself. So this is what— as you move along, your awareness gets higher, and then you are able to really catch yourself when you're doing that. And then you say, this is not my thought, it's not serving me. So it's always a work in progress. You work with yourself, you work probably with your psychologist, you work maybe with your coach. with friends, with family, but you catch yourself doing that, and that's quite important journey of the self-awareness.

Yeah, I think so too. I know that for me, meditation has created a lot of that awareness, you know, so that I can catch myself whenever I'm overthinking something. I, I have a, I have a thought, I suppose, that most areas of personal development and self-help They are over-communicated, they're overcomplicated, and that a lot of them are teaching the same kind of fundamentals. Now, I still think it's important to continue to read and refresh the fundamentals, but a lot of these books, they have very similar messages. It's just sometimes when you're reading it, it hits you in a different way with a different story or a different perspective.

Makes sense. Absolutely, absolutely. It's just back to like your humanity and the basics of how you you basically do things. But I agree, like, you could read— I, I usually, there are certain books that I repeat reading them every now and then. Uh, so for example, there is a book that I read every December again and again, again. If I even show you the book, like, it's already like, uh, so it's like Tuesdays with Morrie. I don't know if you know that book. So I've heard of it, but I haven't read it yet.

Can you— what's, what's it about?

So it's a story about an old man who's struggling from a disease And allow me to just show you that.

So I'm going to get it. If you recommend it, I'm going to get a copy.

Yeah. So, so this is the— so yeah, Tuesdays with— I mean, we're moving now from Without Your Job Type, but this is like something that I love. So you see, it's like very old from my side. And I, I just like reread it every now and then. So there is this old man and Mitch Albom was kind of interviewing him. Uh, he used to be his professor, and every year when I read it, I see something different because I am different, right? So you always see things versus where you are currently standing. So yeah, the books and everything that you read is kind of reflecting who you are at that specific moment.

Yeah, that's true. Well, I added it to my cart, but back to your book because that's the focus for today. So in chapter 2 which is titled Serendipity: Finding Something Good Without Looking for It. You have this READ framework.

Yeah.

And I'll let you kind of go from here. But tell me, how did you develop the framework? Why do you think it's important? You know, how have you been using it?

Yeah, I mean, I believe in— to your point, I believe in the simple ways of doing things. So I developed the READ framework because it was kind of Basically playing on the words. So the word read. So I encourage whoever is reading my book to kind of follow the same sequence. So the read reflect is like reflect. So when you're going through your self-development journey, you basically— I encourage people to do a lot of self-reflection. And that's like the reflection process. And that's what I probably have like few of the beginning chapters. around reflect. Then I encourage them to explore, which is the E in READ. And when you explore, you kind of explore more about yourself, about your limiting beliefs, your value systems, and how do you spend your life juggling between your to-do list and your to-be list. Then I, I go to advance, where this is the part where you kind of advance in your self-awareness and your self-development journey, where you actually look at Few of the things that I personally use. I speak about travel over there. I speak about unlearning and relearning the things about the importance of compassion and resilience in our lives. And then the D is develop, where I speak about the purpose, the possibility. And this is where I speak about like self-leadership. So this is something that I'm going to be continuing to work on personally because I think I'm going to expand more on the READ framework because I personally created it, and it has served me throughout my self-awareness journey. And I'm sure there it could be emphasized more and spoken about more. So expect more posts about the READ framework.

Well, maybe there will be another book just on the READ framework.

Why not?

Yeah, why not? That would be a good title, just READ.

READ. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I like that. So the E, explore. Talk to us a little bit more about that. I mean, so many of us are just set in our ways. We're just like creatures of habit is probably the, the term that gets tossed around. Um, but what is the importance from your perspective in, in continuing to expand like our view and explore more of what life has to offer, explore more of ourselves internally like you talk about?

Yeah, I mean, this is a great question. Thank you, Nick, because explore is more of which areas of your life you would like to really have more insight about. And when I speak about the explore, it's, uh, it's something that everybody speaks about. Coaches speak about it, but I, I base it on the concept of the disempowering beliefs, which are the limiting beliefs. And then also, being a strength coach myself, I also speak in the explore, um, uh, part about gaining clarity on your strength, on your talents, and your ability to kind of, uh, move between your to-do list versus your to-be So there is a kind of like you explore different aspects of your life. So what is this story that— I mean, it's basically repeated, but what I have been telling myself throughout the years, what are my strengths and why do I always have to work on my areas of development and not work on my strength and use my strength to kind of solve the issues in my life or probably help me to reflect? Because we tend to just look at Oh, this is— I'm not really good at that. And then you're probably good at so many other things, but you tend not to focus on them because we tend to always look at the cup half empty, right? And this is where I encourage looking at the strength, whatever talents or strength. I am a Gallup-certified strength coach, so this is something that I also encourage. It's based on positive psychology as well, how to really grow your talents into your strengths to lean on them. Because there is no right or wrong. This is how you are. This is your talents. You've been growing with them. So this is one part of, of that. And then I also encourage the, uh, exploring the different areas of, of what could help us to be who we are.

I, I just did my CliftonStrengths 34. Is that what it is, 34?

Yes, yes, yes. Have you had a coaching session?

No, I haven't. I, I did because a friend of mine is a certified coach and he asked me to do it, and we grabbed time in January, but I'm— 2 coaching sessions probably couldn't hurt.

Yes, yes, yes, I would love to. Anytime. Okay, officially I am offering Nick a coaching session for his strength. CliftonStrengths coach.

Maybe we should record that too. Yes, as a follow-up to this.

So for all the audience, no, it's— I know, I would love to. That's a— I mean, I really breathe that. I speak about it. It has served me throughout the years. Uh, personally. And I mean, one aspect of, of the, uh, of the, um, Explore is, uh, basically in, in the book and probably in the chapters that you have read, it's about your to-do list versus your to-be list. And this is part of the Explore module where you always are running a to-do list from your side, but you're, um, not looking at a to-be list. list. So on one of the TV channels, an Arabic channel that I was invited here, I asked the, uh, the lady who was doing the interview with me, I said, can you give me a not-to-do list? Like, what would be things that you want to stop doing? What would they be? They're hindering you. So this is in your Explore module, in the Explore kind of the READ framework.

Oh well, I'm excited to go through I'll give you my, my top 5 just to kind of—

Yes. Oh, that's great.

To plant the seed. So number 1 is Command, and my friend told me that that's one of the least likely, which is interesting. So number 1 was Command. Number 2 was Learner, which is no surprise. Number 3 is Activator, which I love because I'm like, get up and go, action. You have to take action from these books. Number four is responsibility, and number five self-assurance. So, you know, we can go through six to ten on another.

Yeah, can you go through six to ten? Curious.

Six is achiever.

Yes.

Yeah. Six is achiever. Seven is significance. Eight is relator. Nine is competition, and ten is strategic.

We have three common in your the last.

Oh, we do.

Yes, yes, that's amazing. Wow, that's a good mix of, uh, of, uh, strength that you currently have.

Well, I mean, we'll do, we'll do a whole nother call on that, but back to you. And, uh, we could, we could release it. I'm, I'm transparent, right? So I'd love to use it as a coaching session and maybe post it on the podcast as like a follow-up.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing. Why not? Yes, that'll be fun. Um, yeah, command is not really like one of those, uh, uh, common ones, but what we usually do also in, in the coaching session, we kind of guide you through the things that can be together to really help you. Like, if you're an activator, command would be something that you would rely on. But then also we can look at all the blind spots of some of those strengths and when you can rely on one versus the other.

Well, if somebody in the audience— and I'm sure we'll say this again— but if somebody in the audience wants to work with you to analyze their 34, how do they get in touch with you? What's the best place? Where should they go? What should they do?

Yeah, I mean, I, they, I can be reached on either my LinkedIn, which is my name, Soumana Amar, or they can email me and my email address is actually on, on my LinkedIn page. So through both of them. Yeah.

All right. So we're getting towards the end of the show. I have a couple more questions left before we wrap up. So learn at any age. I've got quite a few young people in the audience, but I'm sure today there are people listening that are a little bit older. They might be asking themselves, should I continue to invest in myself? I mean, what's the point? You know, I'm sort of in the second half of my life. Should I be worrying about these things? So what do you have to say to those people?

I mean, I have to say, like, there is a euphoria in learning. I even mention it in the book. There is this sense of— it's two ways, right? Like, you have this sense of reflection and euphoria and happiness when you learn something new. I remember, for example, when the phone got first released, and then what, like, we were teaching my mom, for example, at her age how to really use WhatsApp, and now she probably spends time on it more than talking to us. So you can really learn anything at any age, and this is because it actually helps your brain, it helps your kind of self-confidence, it helps you to kind of feel this sense of achievement. But keeping that beginner's mindset of you having that curiosity as a child is part of the concept of the euphoria of learning which I speak about. Because children are curious, they want to know more, they want to— they don't really judge each other, they just repeat and don't compete. They don't care what you think of what is really happening. This is one part. And the other part, of course, I mean, encouraging people to learn and grow and develop is is something that will enable them to open also their brain pathways. And there's neuroplasticity, new neurons are like— there's this synaptic connections that happen when you learn something new. So it's also from a health perspective, it's great. And also when you go to learn something new, like you can actually have connections with people who are learning the same thing. So it also gives you this sense of community, of belonging, of speaking to like-minded people. So there is only benefits from learning anything. And I'm not saying like go and learn academically from a book. I'm like, go and learn anything that you probably have always wanted to learn. You want to learn how to play the guitar? Go. You want to learn how to paint? Just go. You want to just learn how to cook and make pasta? Go do sushi. Whatever you really want to do. Learn and become a doctor as well? Go ahead. But of course, I would encourage that to anybody at any age.

Yeah, I love that. It reminds me of Toastmasters public speaking group. So I went a few years ago for probably a year and a half, and most of the room, most people in the room, they were retired, and they were using Toastmasters and that platform of learning how to speak and articulate themselves as an opportunity to learn, but also I feel like a little bit of community because they would all hang out together. They would all go get food before or after together. And it was like a really cool opportunity to get together, to grow, to connect, but also to learn at the same time. And they're not out there giving speeches. They're just having fun learning at the same time, which is really cool.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

Here's my last question for today. What book other than Tuesdays with Morrie What book have you gifted the most over your lifetime? Is there one book that you often give to friends and family? And could you talk a little bit about it if something comes to mind?

Yes, yes, definitely. It's The 5 AM Club, the book from Robin Sharma. I had an opportunity to actually meet him when he visited Dubai for like an event. And then, I mean, when he's talking about his stories, I could kind of like reverse what he's— rehearse what he's saying because I've read it so many times. So this is one book that I've highlighted like you highlight your books because I read it like 3 times. And the reason was that it has really given me personally a pivot in the way that I look at my morning. And I might not just— I mean, I used to wake up at 5, currently like it's around 6-ish, but it's just this morning routine that you develop in the morning with time with yourself to really own your morning and then own your day and get things done, do a little bit of reflection with whatever works for you. So yeah, The 5 AM Club has been one book that I have gifted for so many people throughout my life.

Well, uh, you have now shared the digital stage with Robin because we've had him on this podcast to talk about that book. So yeah, some good synchronicity there. You'll have to go check out that episode. It was a lot of fun. Sumana, thank you so much for coming on the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast today. We'll do a follow-up episode. This will be the first time we've ever done something like this where maybe we film our coaching session together on the 34 and put it out to everybody as a little show of what you do. And again, for anybody that wants to buy a copy of your book, they want to get in touch with you one more time, where should they go? What should they do?

So for the, for the US audience at the moment, like, the book is available on Amazon, so it can be ordered through there. It's available, available, available on Barnes& Noble's website. It's available on many of the platforms online. If they want to get in touch with me, they can actually reach out to me through LinkedIn or on the email that is listed on LinkedIn in, in my banner on, on LinkedIn. So I would be more than happy to connect with all the book thinkers, the audience that is out there.

Amazing. Thank you so much and have a wonderful day. That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.