175. John DeMato | DeMato Productions | Industry Edition

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we're talking about In this episode, we have the pleasure to interview John D'Amato, owner of D'Amato Productions, where he specializes in visual storytelling and branding photography. John is an entrepreneur, writer, a photographer who specializes in visual storytelling and captures compelling and genuine portraits, plus candid moments for experts who speak, train, coach, consult, and write. He also offers book boudoir photography, which Nick had the pleasure of utilizing for his book launch, and branding photography. John was a producer on The Murray Show but felt like there was something more for him, and we dive into all of it in this conversation. In this episode, you'll learn about why you need to figure out what your passion is and some starting questions you can ask yourself about why photography is more relevant today than it has ever been, even in the world of video, what visual storytelling actually is, and the importance of using photography to build your personal brand. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with John D'Amato. John, welcome to the Book Thinkers Podcast. We are excited to get to know you and more about your business, D'Amato Productions. where you create visual storytelling for expert-based business owners. I'd love to start with 35-year-old you. You had a stable job on the set of The Murray Show. You had insurance and seemingly all you needed for a good life, but something was missing. So what happened in your life at this point to make you realize that this wasn't it and push you on a new path of visual storytelling through pictures?

So we're gonna start there, boys. All right.

Starting there.

Good. We're going to start at the important point. It was during that year that my mom was diagnosed with cancer, and unbeknownst to anyone in the family, it was terminal. And when it was towards the end, we put her in a hospice. And it was during that time in my life where I had, up until that point, worked for about 8 and a half, 9 years on Maury as a field producer. And I Quite frankly, was burned out. And when towards one of the last days that she was around, she was unresponsive, but I was talking to her. I had a whole conversation with her, and it was during that conversation that I had this moment of clarity that if I were in her position, if I were the one that was in that bed on the way out, I would feel so regretful of all of the. the way in which I lived my life, the direction in which I went, the fact that I just kind of, you know, was on the hamster wheel and didn't move forward. And, uh, that was the beginning of the end. And about 8 months later is when I quit, uh, the show and kind of jumped into photography from there.

Oh man, thanks for sharing that. I can't imagine how hard that was to go through. Um, why do you think It often takes like a moment like that to shake us out of the life that we're living to go into a life that we want to live. And how can people get there maybe before they get to that point?

Well, the reality, Luke, is that usually people don't move until they have a gun to their head metaphorically. And the reason is because it's hard to make change. It's hard to break habits. It's hard to break old ways of thinking. And in many cases, it takes something dramatic to be able to shake you loose, to be able to think about it. And one of the ways that you can kind of cut that off at the pass and get a head start on that is by being more proactive in life and actually living a life that is more fulfilling from that moment and kind of putting in place a lot of different ways to you know, test yourself, to challenge yourself daily, to keep yourself accountable, to have people around you that inspire you to be— to want to be a better person. And if you don't have that, you're just going to keep on that same loop over and over and over again, and nothing's going to change.

It—

the change starts with you.

You've gone from working some pretty crazy situations to working with thought leaders, like personal development style personalities. A lot of them are business style speakers, they're authors, um, and working for those people, I'm sure, is a big difference. So what, what is the difference between working like on the set of a show like that and working for, you know, our mutual friends, the Lou Diamonds of the world and people like that?

The difference is the motivation, um, and the objective. The motivation is because when I first started my business, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. And I spent a lot of time freaking out that I made a bad choice because, oh, I'm gonna shoot headshots. That's how I started as a headshot photographer. I was doing that on the side while working on Maury. And, um, yeah, I'll just put them out there and people are gonna hire me. I'm in New York City, there's 9 million actors. I could shoot real estate people. This is gonna be a breeze. And then the phone didn't ring for years. And, you know, you start to wonder what the hell were you thinking. But working with people that are in the space of transformation versus working on a television show where the objective is ratings, therein lies the difference. It's not that my time— I look back, you know, with a sense of anger or resentment towards the show. In fact, a lot of what I did on that show has translated to the very work I do today, including photographing you, Nick, you know, and the way that I approach the shoots. It's more about being in the room of people that make me want to be a better person. It kind of speaks to what I just said before. The fact that I serve people that are in the business of helping people get past what's holding them back only serves to benefit me. In addition to the fact that they pay me to be in that room to do the thing that I love the most. So in the game of life, as far as I'm concerned, I'm playing with house money.

Yeah, we, we have that in common, man, because just like you, we get paid. We get paid to show up and get coached, essentially. Yeah, people that charge a heck of a lot of money for their time.

That's right.

Greatest life hack ever. Yeah.

But you know what it also is, though? It's not— it's not a value prop that's weighted heavily on one side or the other. There is a mutual exchange here because the reality is what you do and what I do is something that they need. It helps them amplify their message, create that perception of authority, get their asses out there so that the people that need them can actually discover them. So, as far as I'm concerned, you know, it's a pretty fair trade even though I'm killing 2 birds with one stone, as are you.

Yeah, I think so too. You know, we're serving time-pressured thought leaders, you know, in this transformation space. And what you do is you show up and you take, you know, your process is so efficient. We could talk for a minute about the process with you because I thought it was pretty cool. So, for everybody listening or watching today. John showed up one day in Boston. And we did a bunch of headshots as well as some lifestyle type photography, like you caught me taking notes and listening to audiobooks and a few other really interesting shots. And by the way, like those photos have now been used as cover art on like hundreds of podcasts, and they're distributed all over the internet. We got it all done in a couple of hours. And I think Part of your, your special sauce was the preparation. Yeah, like we went through this onboarding call, this onboarding session where you had me like describe how I wanted to be perceived and a bunch of other things that I never thought would be part of the headshot process.

And that's, that's the thing, Nick, that, that comes from the TV world, that comes from working on a talk show and understanding that, you know, if you— especially when it comes to shooting an interview, sitting with an editor, turning this thing around so that the next day it can roll into the show live as it's being taped. You know, you have to work with a real sense of urgency. And, you know, when it comes to creating branding photos, the lifestyle images, all those promotional photos that we took, we don't have a lot of time, but you have a lot of needs. And in order to truly create an image portfolio that is comprehensive, that shows who you are, who you serve, the problems you solve, and how you solve those problems. So having that call is essential because if you don't have that roadmap, if you don't understand those high-level concepts and then get into the nuances and wrinkles that make you uniquely you, you're not going to be able to create the types of assets that will resonate with you, not only to be able to show your audience what the sauce, you know, how the sausage is made, but also to get a real sense of you as a person. You have to be able to walk into a room and know exactly what you need in order to be able to make that time count.

I thought this was such a beautiful process, like digging into your story and going to see all these different— on your website, seeing all these different people that you've taken photos of. I was like super impressed. You know, you use this term visual storytelling. Maybe you can unpack, like, what does that exactly mean? Because what comes to my mind often when you say visual storytelling, I'm thinking video, but You're actually saying photography. So how does that correlate to 2024? Like, how is photographs still relevant in the world of video? And how does that correlate to the visual storytelling?

Photographs will always be relevant. And this is coming from a TV guy, you know, at heart, they'll always be relevant because you cannot presume that every person that comes across your feed anywhere, any touchpoint on your online presence, that they are going to invest 30 seconds, 3 minutes, an hour into any video that you put out there. Therefore, when you use images in a way that visually punctuates the sentiment and the emotion and tone of the stories that you share, that package, the words and the images, that will create enough interest for some people who might not be ready to invest that much time into learning more about how you can help solve their problems. So visual storytelling again is compelling visuals, with insightful storytelling put together to be able to be put out there in a way that truly shows, you know, what your expertise is and all of that good stuff.

Could you tell us how you kind of stumbled into this world of photography? Because you went to school for— I forget exactly what it is, but something in film, or you wanted to be an announcer. And then there was— so can you maybe just unpack I love—

you're the first person that's actually brought that up. That is awesome. That also means I need to update all my bios, but thank you for that. Um, yeah, I got into television production, uh, because I originally wanted to be an anchor on SportsCenter, which I'm sure a lot of people in my age range can, uh, relate to. Um, and what ended up happening is I realized that, oh wow, reading a prompter with such, uh, style and grace is actually really hard. So I decided to jump behind the camera and I got into that and got my MFA degree in television production. And probably about, I would say, 3 to 4 years into working on the show on Maury, we did a story and it involved a photographer shooting makeovers with these teens who were bullied. And we went to this studio in Manhattan and we walked into the studio and I saw his camera and his setup and a cyclorama, which is this, you know, hard white wall where you just stand there and you do full body. I'm like, this is incredible. And then I saw the photos that he was taking, and then he took a photo of me and the other field producer that was on that shoot. We're jumping in the air with our cameras and everything. I'm like, I got hooked immediately. And then he eventually became— his name is Peter Hurley, by the way. Um, I eventually, uh, He became my mentor. I was in one of his coaching programs and he taught headshots. And that's where I first got my start in that world. And it was pretty cool.

And I think that I had a— you and I have so many mutual friends at this point, John, but I think it was with Sylvie. I was on a call with her and I was like, how did you get hooked up with John? And she was like, you know, I saw a photo one day on LinkedIn of like a a friend of mine who is an author, a speaker, and this photo was just like 10 times more vibrant than anything I had ever seen him produce. And I was just like, I need those. And I forget if it was Sylvie that told me that story, but somebody told me that story about you. And I was like, wow, like, I wonder how he was able to capture something that was 10 times better than the other photographers that he had previously worked with. So I think again, it goes into this process of you just genuinely caring and trying to like pull out the best of what this person has to offer.

Yeah, number one, it was Sylvie. And number two, the one thing that you folks need to understand is this is not just a business for me. This is my art. I've translated my art in a way that does not compromise my integrity. And when I photograph people, yeah, your expectation levels are at a level, but mine are about 7,000 steps above it because of the fact that this is This is my life, my love, my passion. I've given everything to it. And, you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

So just give everybody in the audience sort of an overview of some of the major services that you offer.

Sure. So as a branding photographer, part of what that entails is capturing promotional images. So if, you know, you need stuff for your website or if you are a speaker or trainer facilitator and you need images for the organizations in which you serve. We have those images. Then we have the lifestyle images that also can be used for online content and printed materials. And all of that is kind of bundled into one type of service. Then we have the live event photography piece, which is the aforementioned training, keynotes, coaching, one-on-one things, anything virtual, we capture that stuff as well. And then the third piece is my baby, the Book Boudoir, the getting an author's book and getting a bunch of clamps and throwing the pages open and just photographing the COVID and the spine, but, but really the juice of the book, which is the inside pages, the The illustrations, the pull quotes, the section headers, the other different types of icons, avatars, graphics, whatever it happens to be, just getting in there and capturing all of them in a compelling way to be able to ship to these authors, to be able to really juice up their launch visually, and to also use them after the launch to be able to leverage them in their online content as well as on their websites and other promotional opportunities.

I think it was my wife. I was showing her the Book Boudoir photos you took of Rise of the Reader.

Mm-hmm.

I think it was my wife that said to me, uh, looks like he just generated these on, on like Photoshop or something. I'm like, like the shadows were too perfect. Like it just, it looked artificial. And I'm like, no, these are real photos. And she's like, no way, you know? And you had some with like the green and the windowsill and the reflections and She just she thought it was like too good to be true, which was just so funny.

You know, I actually take that as a compliment. So that's cool. At least she didn't say it was AI generated. So that's even that's that's good.

No, not AI generated, but like almost too perfect. Like like they looked real obviously, but like too perfect.

Yeah.

What I did was I was able to just. add some like captions on the side or whatever and throw them on LinkedIn. And those posts performed really, really well.

You know what it is? It's— here's the thing. If you just have the budget for a, you know, 2-dimensional image of the, the COVID and that's what you got to run with, that's what you got to run with. But if you're really looking to Give your audience the opportunity to really preview that book in their hands, through their eyes in this way. It's really going to generate more interest. It's it's got more. It's got more oomph behind it because the reality is that's what the book looks like. The pages are open. There's the they're moving. It's there's dimensionality to it, and more importantly, the quotes and the section headers and all of these things you do not get. just from a 2D image of the COVID You get the COVID sure, it's eye candy, but this is also eye candy but with purpose, and it also is that jumping off point for you to be able to write those captions.

Normally I don't do this, but I'm just throwing an idea out there in the middle of a show. I've seen, I've seen recently on Amazon a couple of big publishers are now adding more than just front cover, back cover on Amazon previews. They're adding like a couple of video testimonials or some additional photos. And I think that's because the average person's buying behavior on non-book items is you click on the, the item you're about to buy, you scroll through like all 10 images that are provided, you really get a good idea for what this item is going to be, whether it's cookware or a supplement, or it doesn't matter. There's like all this additional context. But with books, People just have the front cover and the back cover and it's 2D and it's boring. And so I am going to, after this, experiment with uploading your images because you're totally right. It gives people an actual preview of what the book looks like. I'm going to see if Amazon accepts them because that would be really interesting if they did. So now people have like 10 items to scroll through on Amazon rather than just the book cover.

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Yeah, I'd be really curious to see how that performs. I haven't thought of that, so that would be a great idea to do that.

So, John, you talk a lot about passion, and I can tell that you're passionate about this topic of photography. And art, and it's, it's amazing to see. Now, you had a conversation, I think when maybe it was in high school or maybe it was in college, but with an architecture teacher that was talking to you about passion. Could you like unpack that and then maybe talk to us about how you could maybe give some tips about how people can discover what their passion is?

Digging in the crates, man, once again.

Wow.

Uh, yeah, I remember that conversation very clearly. It was, I was a junior in high school.

I was in architecture.

I went to the High School of Art and Design here in New York. City. And I was at the time thinking about what architecture colleges to apply to. And I had asked my professor or my teacher— it was high school— my teacher about Cooper Union, which is one of the top architecture schools in the country. And I had asked him about the whole process of applying there. And before I, you know, kind of, what do I got to do? What do I got to fill out? He kind of stopped me and he says, is architecture something that you love to do? And my response was, it's cool. I like it, which I thought it was cool. He goes, no, do you really, really love architecture? Because if you don't, what's going to end up happening is you're going to be putting in 20-hour days in school. They're going to be working you to the bone. Then you're going to graduate. You're going to make next to nothing for 5 to 10 years or whatever it was. It was a long stretch of time. And if you do not love it, you are going to wash out. It is not going to work for you. And I would suggest you look at something else. And it was at that moment that I realized that this was not my path. So I actually, for senior year, changed my major to something else because my friends were in it and that was really it. But I knew I was going to go after media and the aforementioned SportsCenter thing and TV and all that stuff, which then translated. But what I would say to people in terms of how to kind of once again cut off, cut off the, cut it off at the pass in terms of having a major life decision is you really need to check in with yourself and you need to be present in this conversation to the point that you sit down in front of a computer or however you brainstorm and free write and answer You know, what do I like to do? What am I passionate about? And start to really flesh out what that looks like to be able to truly get more focus on what's really important. Because ultimately, you know, especially at that age, you're worried, am I going to be able to make a living?

Is—

am I going to be able to do stuff in life? And the reality is, if you're passionate about something and you build on the thing that you are into, That will all take care of itself. The key is that there is a level of interest in it to the point that you can build it into an obsession, to the point that you can then be able to grow whatever it is and then attract, you know, the stuff that you're looking to do.

That's such powerful points. I think that people don't even like take the time to ask themselves those questions. And I know for a long time I didn't. And you just follow what society gives you and what you should do. And you go after that stable job because it's like, this is what I'm supposed to do. What is your— I know we talked about it a little bit, but maybe you can talk about stability and your view on that in jobs and everything else.

Well, my parents were all about getting a stable check and having health insurance. And that was one of the main reasons why I stayed on the show for as long as I did, because it was golden handcuffs. And, and then when my mom died, that was when I realized that I gotta follow what's important to me. That's when I had my, you know, come-to-Jesus moment, so to speak, right? And, you know, I'm not gonna say it's easy, and I'm not gonna say that where I am now or the days that are ahead are gonna be, you know, sunshine and roses, because they're not. But the difference being that This is a road that I actively chose myself. It is one that I consistently pave day after day after day. It's the one where I bust my ass every single time a camera is in my hand or anytime I have a conversation about what it is that I do and how I can serve other people. And there is a level of gratitude for that that allows me to stay on that road even when it gets a little slippery, a little icy, a little crappy. Because it is my road and no one's going to take it from me.

Yeah, I heard— I think it was Hormozi recently. He was saying basically like you can have stability, but then you give up the excitement and the anticipation of what's next and sort of the control over your destiny. And so when you do go out on your own and you give up the stability piece, like, yeah, you have the excitement, but there's also the uncertainty.

Yeah.

It could all fall apart tomorrow, and that's exciting, but it does take a special type of person to be able to embrace that. So what, what keeps you going in it? Like, obviously you're aligned with it. Does the uncertainty ever get too much? Do you ever feel overwhelmed?

Yeah, I'm a human being, man. It happens, but not to the point that it was when I didn't have a plan. I didn't have you know, an audience that actually, you know, respects what I do and understands the value that I provide them, you know. But the road is never fully paved. There's always things around the corner. Like, for example, now I'm thinking about my next steps. I know at where I am with, with photography is that I can't do this forever. I mean, I'm rolling around on the floor. I wear a knee pad when I shoot.

Okay.

I'm doing acupuncture, I'm doing sauna, I'm exercising. It's like I'm an athlete. It's ridiculous. But I do it because if I don't, I'm going to fall apart completely during these shoots, especially, you know, the multi-day events. And with respect to the uncertainty, yeah, it's in the back of my mind. But the key thing is to put one foot forward in front of the other and you just go from there and figure out what is the next right step. And just go from there. Because if you do that, that kind of takes a lot of the, you know, where am I going to go? How am I going to build this thing? How am I going to build this audience in this other area that I want to focus on, you know, a couple of years down the road? I don't worry about that because I'm worried about one foot right in front of the other for now. And in the background, playing the what-if game, the visualizing game, writing down the ideas thing, bouncing it off the smart people that I work with. Who do this type of work day after day, and really just kind of piece it together while I'm in the present moment.

Yeah, I mean that's such a such a great answer because like business especially is that it's just one foot in front of the other daily. So I mean you have to have a vision for the future, but if you think too far out, like it's not tangible. I'm curious about the hashtag. Yeah, absolutely. Can you Tell us that story too, because I think that's such a— it just speaks a lot to your character and who you are as a person in your business.

Yeah, absolutely. So that hashtag is— that's the first one that I have. I have 3 that I roll with these days. Yeah, absolutely. Deliver magic and share magical ideas. But yeah, absolutely was the first one because it represents the transition in my life from working for someone else to working for myself and serving an audience of people. Back then, you know, the stability thing that we talked about, you know, the, the, the golden handcuffs, all of that stuff was a representation of my hell no mentality, meaning that when I was working on the show, I would get offers to work on reality shows all the time. But I would be too afraid to do it because I felt as though I was overstepping what I could handle, and I would say no to a ton of opportunities. And and I'm actually glad I didn't go that route because I don't know where my life would have led. But in the moment, it's not something that I really wanted to even entertain, so I would just pass on all these things. But now. You know, I'm in the lion's den. I'm on my own. I gotta hunt for my own food. I don't have the luxury of saying no anymore at the beginning. I had to get whatever the hell I could get to be able to keep the lights on. So we went from a hell no mentality to a yeah, absolutely mentality. Now that also means now moving forward, I do say no to things now, but it's with a much healthier mindset. It's not out of desperation or anything or fear. It's more out of I just don't want to do that because it's not a fit for what I want to do. So that's really where that hashtag comes in play.

That's beautiful. I think it just speaks to the hustle that's kind of needed at the beginning of your journey, especially in business. So many people, I don't know, we're fed on social media, we're fed this overnight success stuff, right? It's like you see it everywhere all the time. It's like, oh, I'm 18 years old and I'm a millionaire. I'm making $10,000 a month and doing nothing. And it's Yeah. I like those stories because it speaks to the reality of business. It speaks to the reality of entrepreneurship, which a lot of people don't have in their feeds on a daily basis. They have all the glitz and glamour that isn't real.

Yeah.

So John, tell us a little bit more about your process and how you found your artistic style. Like you talk a lot about visual storytelling and I've been on your website and I've seen all these beautiful photos. And like the old saying goes, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words, and your pictures like speak to that so well. So how did you develop this kind of this artistic style that stands apart from the rest of photographers, that differentiates you?

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Right. Well, a lot, as I alluded to a little bit earlier in this conversation, my style really stems from the work that I did behind a video camera. You know, working on a talk show, especially that type of a show, you know, people are either pissed off and angry or they are, you know, crumpled up in the fetal position, totally in tears. And it's— it was my job to be able to capture all of those things, not just from one angle, but to capture it from multiple angles. And then when you start thinking about the interviews that we shot and the field pieces and the coverage that was that was necessary for editors to be able to weave together these short-form video clips to be able to roll into the show. That's really where this style comes from. It's, it's not just the, the, the coverage, the kind of the B-roll mindset of get it wide, medium, close, from the left, from the right. They're doing this thing now, they're doing that thing. But also The layer on top of it is capturing emotion. And in terms of the branding photography, in terms of the live event work, it's really about capturing my clients in front of that camera, displaying various aspects of their personality and their passion for what they do so that when they look at these images, they recognize the person in those photos.

John, I'm curious about the Viking helmet behind you. What's the story?

The Viking helmet was part of— this is when the show was still in New York City and we did a Halloween show and Maury dressed up as Flavor Flav from The Flavor of Love. So he had a jumpsuit, he had the big clock, and he had the Viking helmet. I didn't take the clock or the jumpsuit, but I walked away with the Viking helmet, so I kept it. As a little memento from that shoot.

That's pretty funny. All right. What's the, what's the craziest thing that you were on-site recording for?

I'm definitely not gonna have to be able to tell you that. I'll just, I'll just give you the high level. I have done interviews in prison cells, locked, in hospitals, In funeral homes, porn sets, brothels. I've been on bridges. I've been in trailer parks, some of the worst neighborhoods in the world, some of the most beautiful iconic places that you could ever imagine, and everything in between. And it was a hell of a time. I'll just say that. Very interesting.

And is that a captain's hat over your other shoulder?

Yeah.

Yeah. I'll leave.

I'll leave out the names, but let's just say I was hanging out with a couple of speakers one day, and we might have had a couple too many at a bar in downtown Manhattan, and a bunch of sailors came in for Fleet Week, and one of the speakers decided to. help herself to one of the hats. So that hat now lives in my office at my house. I'll leave out the rest.

You are the— you're the guy that we want to go have a drink with and just hear all these stories. Like, just hear them all.

Amazing. And just so you know, I have video, some of the video clips of the stuff I've shot on my phone, which makes it even better.

Oh well, you know, next time we're around you, we're gonna, we're gonna try to get some, get some drinks with you. That's amazing. Now, oh yeah, I, I want to ask this because I think it's important for like our listeners and people who like might be considering getting photographs. You have, I mean, I looked at it like again, the pictures on your website, beautiful people. You've taken pictures of Nick. I mean, Nick's a super good-looking guy. Like, what do you, what do you say to People who feel like, oh, I don't look good behind the camera, I'm not photogenic. Like, what do you say to those people?

Well, handsome, not handsome, this, that. I have a problem with my left eye, my right eye. I need to lose weight. I need to look 20 pounds, 20 pounds lighter, 30 years younger. You'd be surprised at how that translates across a wide breadth of humanity. It's a lot more than you would think. I am much more a therapist than I am a photographer in many cases, let me tell you. But the one thing that I will tell people, and as a matter of fact, I had this conversation yesterday at something that I was photographing with a woman who was complaining about, oh, I got jowls and this and that. And I'm just like, stop. Listen, number one, remember one thing. The reason why these people come to you is not the way— because of the way you look. They come to you because you can help get them past what's holding them back. And number 2, these photos, while they need to be flattering because otherwise you'll never use them— flattering and oh my God, I love them are 2 different things. Flattering is important. These photos are about them. They're not about you. They are meant for you to be To use them as a vehicle to bring people into your world. So long story short, get over yourself. And the faster that you figure that out, the easier this process is going to be. Because if you don't get over it, I will damn sure make sure that while we are shooting, that I will consistently remind you of that fact. And it's that simple.

Now, you've always kind of had— well, since I met you, you've always kind of had this straight to the point, I'm going to tell you what I think, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Have you always been this direct, or did you have to step into that authentic authenticity?

I was the most scaredy-cat headshot photographer, and when I started working with speakers, I was intimidated by everyone all the time. And it was reflected in the work. And then one day, I just had this moment of clarity that made me realize that if I'm going to get through to these people, if I want these people to be who they are, to show those genuine sides of their personality to those that they serve through these images, I have to walk the talk. And it was at that moment that the shift started to happen. I mean, I didn't go into this full tonal change, and essentially this is how I talk to my friends and family. And it took a little bit of a transition period. But since that point, yes, I now tell you like it is, because the last thing that you want is a photographer to basically kiss your ass the whole time. Why? Because the work is going to suffer. Your investment is not going to be fully worth what you put into it time and money-wise. And ultimately, the images are not going to truly reflect who you are. Now, that's also to say another thing. I am an acquired taste and I have done that by design. The reality is there are other photographers out there with different dispositions but are still genuine to who they are. And they will attract different types of clients than I will. But the point being is you cannot be afraid of who you are, whether you're in front of the camera or you're behind the camera. Otherwise, the work suffers.

I'm taking notes over here. I mean, like, we film people and like, literally though, like, like we go and film people and they struggle with this. And I'm just like, what you just said, which was a little bit ago, which was It's not about you, it's about them. It's about your audience, but it's about helping those people.

That is so huge.

And that mindset shift is just like, oh, that's like the— that's the language I've needed. So thank you for sharing that because it's perfect.

Let's add that to our intro when we're onboarding people.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. You have to metaphorically slap them around a little bit, and that's okay because you are an expert for a reason in the same way that they are experts. For a reason. If you are not holding their hand, putting the hands on 10 and 2 on that wheel, I mean, what's going to happen? Not the best outcome.

Yeah. Do you ever find that you— I know you were talking about you don't maybe attract those clients, but has anyone ever, like, walked out on you because you're telling them, like, kind of yelling at them a little bit, like, hey, it's not about you? Like, has anybody ever walked out?

No, no, no. And the reason why, and I'm glad you brought this up, that's what the inquiry call is for. And then that's what the strategy call is for. Because, you know, qualification is a two-way street. By the way, they're qualifying me to see, you know, if I'm a fit for them. I'm also qualifying them. And what I do in that conversation is I'll throw in— I haven't really cursed here. I'm trying to be a good boy. But The reality is I'll throw that in, slide it in, see how they react. I'll talk to them with some sarcasm. I'll raise the voice a little bit. I'll give them a pause. I see how they respond. And if it's something where they're laughing or they're engaged or they themselves start to mirror, I'm like, we're a fit. We're ready to go. And if it's not, then it's not. Either way, it's okay. The most important thing is that you don't find that out Such good stuff, man.

I'm like so thankful for you right now because like all this stuff is just stuff that we need to implement in our own business and I appreciate it. We're coming up onto 45 minutes here. I have a hard stop in a little bit. So Nick, I don't know if you have any other questions that you want to, that you want to ask before I start kind of wrapping things up.

Well, I'll just say that I'm so glad that I got to talk to you. state to everybody listening or watching today, like, if, if you're on the fence, work with John. As you can tell, he's the man. But the product, like the headshots that I received, as well as some of the other like branding photos, amazing. The book boudoir photos, amazing. Like, shoot me a DM, I'll show you what he did for me. Uh, here's my last question. What is the best book that you've ever read? What book would you recommend? What book do you gift the most? You can choose whichever one of those you want.

The one that hit me the most?

Yeah.

Hmm. In this world, not in my TV world, I would say This Is Marketing by Seth Godin. That one, that one was money for me. That opened up a lot of pathways in my head about, you know, how to actually put yourself out there. Resonated deeply.

And did you—

I should have said The Rise of— I should have said The Rise of the Realms. Sorry.

I wasn't teeing you up. I wasn't teeing you up like that. Did you photograph Seth?

So I have photographed Seth at an event for another colleague of mine live. That was awesome. I have photographed him in his dojo in upstate New York while he was interviewing another colleague of mine. And then as part of starting kicking off the Book Boudoir thing, when I didn't have any authors with any interest, I shot this as marketing and I used that on the homepage.

I love it. I love it. Hey, that's marketing, man.

Yeah, man. Yeah.

Oh man, I love it. Okay, so I have 2 more questions. The first one is, where can people go to learn a little bit more about you? And obviously we'll link it all in the show notes.

Sure. The best place to find me is my website, johndamato.com. Specifically, if you want to learn more about visual storytelling and my journey of working in this world with experts who speak, coach, train, consult, and write books, uh, I suggest you subscribe to my blog because I write a lot and I share a lot of insights in there.

Yeah, I really enjoyed— I got a lot of stories from there, and a lot of my notes came from your blog. I enjoyed reading that. So, uh, thanks for sharing all those wisdom and insights.

Yes, I could tell you were on there. That's awesome.

Last question is this, and I ask all our guests this. You pass away and all the information that you put out, the blog posts, courses, photography, all of it goes away, but you can leave the world with a single piece of advice. What would it be?

Don't ever be afraid to be yourself.

Why is that so hard? Such money. Well, John, this has been such a fun conversation. You're an awesome guy. I love your energy. I can't wait to talk to you again and maybe hang out in person sometime. Appreciate you coming on the show today.

Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkerspodcast. Thinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.