189. Pauline Nguyen | Master Keynote Speaking | Pt 2

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, We have the pleasure to interview for the second time Pauline Nguyen, author of *The Way of a Spiritual Entrepreneur*. If you haven't listened to the last episode, I encourage you to go listen to it. It was absolutely life-changing for me and so many others. Pauline is a conscious entrepreneur who has owned many businesses, including Red Lantern, which is an award-winning restaurant in Australia. She is also an international keynote speaker, author, and life coach who integrates science and spirituality into her life. her teachings, and her coaching. In this episode, you'll learn about the keys to keynote speaking, why you need to speak from your authentic self and what that actually means, about the power of decisions, the different types of speakers from public to private, why it's not your job to fix people, the power of crafting a compelling story, why speaking can be a part of your healing journey, and all about the art of keynote speaking. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Pauline Nguyen.

Pauline, welcome back to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast. We had the chance to interview you a couple of months ago, and now you're back for a second episode. And here's where I'd like to start. Everybody in the Book Thinkers audience knows that I am an aspiring keynote speaker. It's something that I'm focusing on throughout 2024. And whenever I have the chance to speak with somebody like you, I want to be a sponge. I want to learn. I want to ask good questions.

Yeah.

So let's start there. What did your journey of speaking look like? And give everybody some context as to what types of stages you're currently speaking on.

I'll tell you what kind of stages I'm currently speaking on, and then I will rewind to how we got here. I'm speaking internationally in front of you know thousands of people. The largest audience is a little bit over four thousand people. I spend quite a bit of time in the US speaking to all sorts of audiences from lawyers to accountants to event planners to speaker bureaus to agencies. So let me just break this down. As a keynote speaker, we set the key tone for the event. That's what a keynote speaker does. And so the key tone for the event, you are either the first speaker for the event or the first speaker of the day or the last speaker of the day. So your job is to inspire and set the tone, the key tone of the event. And from that, every word— well, if you want to be a master at it, anyone can speak, but can you communicate? Can you influence the room? And so it gets to the point where we become so masterful that no word is wasted. Every pause is deliberate. We speak to cadence, we speak to nonverbals on stage. There's a difference when you speak like this and then your voice changes when you lower your hands and you pause. And so everything is a masterpiece, should you wish, should you wish. And every block on stage activates a different thought or a different response from the audience. And so when you get deep into the mastery of it, we don't, um, do things such as contaminate spaces on the stage with different parts of the story. So it gets really deep, you know, and that's when you can really notice who is a master on stage and who is not. So it does become an art. And then you have a facilitator, someone on stage who is teaching, you know, by PowerPoint, or they're telling you something educational, or you have an educator. And so as a professional speaker, We get booked and paid very well by private corporations or organizations. As a public speaker, your presentation is open to the public, and public speakers sell something at the end. I'm not a public speaker. I'm a professional speaker, so I get booked by people in private. So that's the big— that's a little bit of a distinction. I've been doing it now for Over 15 years, when I first started, I wanted to call myself the spiritual entrepreneur. And if you can imagine 15 years ago, it was like, don't call yourself that, Pauline. People are afraid of that word. And I said, I understand that people are afraid, but I know where the collective consciousness is going. And if we've been paying attention, the collective consciousness is maturing very, very quickly to understand that to tap into your spirituality, what is that? To live your life in Spirit and inspired to find the authentic you. What is authenticity? Authenticity is to never betray ourselves, to speak from truth, to speak from a place of power, and people believe what you say. That's how you know you're speaking from your true authentic power. And so to be coming from 15 years ago where the people who represented me at the time were saying, "Don't don't do that." I said, "It's a Trojan horse. Just get me on the stage and I'll." rock it for you. And, um, I, I became one of the most booked female speakers in Australia. Why? Because people, they're, they're not just— they're, they're not just hungry for it, it's innately part of our makeup. Um, it's our birthright to be able to ask these questions. It's— and so I— people were curious. And then, uh, with the, with the stage mastery, something happens when we really move someone or poke someone in that way. And then of course, there's all the energetics that come to prepare before, during, and after the keynote. But at that time, no one was speaking about mindfulness or meditation. Don't do that. That's woo-woo. And I said, really? Sitting down in one spot, finding place of rest and tranquility, and tapping into your inner self and listening to yourself and listening to the messages, that's woo-woo? I think that's called being human if you ask me. And so, we're so mind-centric. We're so running around. And so, what I discovered as I was speaking more and more and more about spirituality some 15 years ago, everyone was hungry for it. They're so hungry for something. There must be something more in this life. There must be more. And so, fast forward now, people are really starting to discover, hey, there is an answer to all these questions to why I feel so sad. stuck, why I feel this void, why I'm so hungry, why I'm so empty sometimes. But it all started when I released my first book called Secrets of the Red Lantern. I released that in 2007, 2007, 2008. And I wrote it purely to create an heirloom for my daughter. My daughter was 2 years old at the time. And this is what happens when you speak from the heart, when you are not afraid of what people are going to think. And so, I won Debut Writer of the Year for it. No one was more surprised than I was. It became an international bestseller in those years where legit bestseller was that you had to sell a minimum of 50,000 copies around the world. Not these days where if you get all your friends to buy a copy on Amazon for a dollar, then you become an Amazon bestseller, right? You know, that was in those days where it was very different. And it was an heirloom that I had intended to write for my daughter. But then, I got all these letters from people all around the world. And it's a very dark and personal memoir, really dark and personal memoir, which I disguised as a cookbook so people would buy it. And it was on the back of the success of our restaurant, Red Lantern, which is the most awarded Vietnamese restaurant in the world. And we're still around, 20 years, 22 years in business now. And so I wrote this book and started getting letters from people all around the world. And I get so emotional when I think about this time. Letters from survivors of domestic abuse, letters from those who were experiencing displacement, from refugees from all around the world, letters from Vietnam vets and those who actually went to war. And the biggest surprise for me, the biggest surprise were how many letters I got from children of parents who were survivors of the Holocaust because it was the same story. It was just a different war. And so with that, I just started getting all this attention and started winning awards and traveling to do all these writers' festivals. And I was forced to speak on stage. And I had so much trauma that I hadn't Healed from growing up in a very, very, very violent upbringing. And while the book was cathartic, while I wrote it in words, I hadn't addressed the trauma that was sitting in my body, the traumatic— all the pain that I had been storing in my organs. And so, here I am getting pushed on stage by the publishers. And I said to them, are you sure you're not going to give me any media training? Because isn't this what you do? when I wrote the book, I said, are you going to edit the hell out of this so that I can sound more intelligent because I am not a writer? And they said, no, Pauline. We need your authentic voice. And they were right. It touched so many people from around the world. And then when I got on stage at all these writers festivals, I could not speak. The trauma was locked in my throat. My throat shut down because I buried it so deep and I had not dealt with it. I could not. I couldn't until I had to really face it. And so I'm on stage, I am crying, I am frozen. I can't even tell my story because my trauma is now saying, it's time to release this, Pauline. And so while I was embarrassed, I also thought, you guys don't deserve to see this. The audience doesn't deserve to see this. And also, you don't deserve to see this. So it was on a couple of parts. And that was when I made the decision, I have to master this because I realized how many people I was able to impact and touch with my first book. But I have the opportunity now to stand on stage in front of hundreds of thousands of people, and I need to master this thing. If I'm going to do my self-service and service to everyone else. And that was when I started really becoming masterful at it. I wasn't just going to be a dabbler with it. That's where it all started. And fast forward, here we are.

Pauline, I have so many questions coursing through my head right now, and I'm trying to figure out and pick the right one. But I'm just going to go with my gut and I'm going to ask you a question. I think it more than answered it. Also answered our follow-up questions. Oh, it was such a beautiful— it's such a beautiful story. When you were up on stage and you said you were like having like this traumatic, like you couldn't get the words out, were you able to eventually get something out that— were you able to speak something?

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Yeah.

That was also the first time that I realized how kind the audience is.

Oh, yeah.

I realized how kind they are. And, you know, I coach speakers now. And also, you know, in my second book, which— The Way of the Spiritual Entrepreneur, the book that you guys know, I won Best Entrepreneurship and Small Business Book Award for that. Thank you. With that second book, there was a little bit of fear for me because while I was told to not speak about that on stage 15 years ago and not call myself the spiritual entrepreneur, now I'm releasing a book called The Way of the Spiritual Entrepreneur: The 7 Secrets to Becoming Fearless, Stress-Free, and Unshakeable in Business and in Life. My publicist at the time, I said, Shall I prepare for getting attacked in interviews? Should I prepare for having the cynics and the skeptics? I think skepticism is very natural. Cynicism is a defense mechanism, right? And so, I said, should I prepare? And she reminded me, she said, most people who want to interview you, most people, most people, not all, most people who want to speak to you, most people who invite you on stage, They're kind. And then I remembered all those years ago when I froze on stage, everyone was so kind. And I was speaking, I remember vividly a friend of mine, Sean, he came to support me because it was one of my first speaking gigs as part of writers festivals. And I was speaking in front of, it would have been about 600 librarians from all across Australia wanting to share my story in their book that is now And FYI, I love it because I still get the invitation still from parts of that book being in high school curriculums and university papers and as part of the education piece for a lot of teenagers growing up. And at the time, everyone in the audience was so kind. I just saw kindness in their eyes. And they gave me the time to breathe through it. My friend Sean later told me that he wanted to come up and slap me, slap me across the face.

Yeah.

face to get me out of that state, right? But it was so kind and I breathed through it and I was able to deliver the rest of my keynote. And while you want to— while my story does evoke emotion and pull at the heartstrings, as a master on stage, there's a fine line. There's a fine line. And you want to take people on that emotional journey. And then, but you don't want to— I see so many speakers just go too far the other way. And that for me is abuse. We can't inflict that on the audience. They don't know the mastery behind it. And so they keep their audience in pain for too long. And not everyone has the capacity to come out of it again. So it is a very fine skill set to be able to take them there, but then lift them up again to deliver the real message. And not to leave them with this blanket of trauma.

You're obviously, like you said, you're a master. You've worked on this and I think you can tell.

And I still do.

I still do. It's beautiful. It's amazing. When you speak the truth, you align with God. I really believe that. And I think that the fact that you were able to first speak the truth through the Red Lantern book and then through the other books and then just be yourself, it is so powerful. I'm curious, what's your advice for people that are dealing with trauma, past traumas? What is the first steps they can take to start to heal from past traumas?

The first step is always the decision to decide that you don't want to be here anymore. Because a lot of people, and I'm speaking from direct experience, I've coached many people over the years. Now my niche is spiritual entrepreneurs, but so many people have their trauma define them. It becomes their identity. And before anyone starts coaching with me, I send them a questionnaire. I don't speak to them yet. I protect my energetic field. I do send them out a questionnaire and the questions are very, very decisive and Definitive, and so what am I hearing out for? I'm hearing out for verbiage of victimhood. I'm hearing out for verbiage still of vengeance or anger. And you know most coaches will say, "Well, you should be able to coach everyone," and it's like, "Yeah, but what if I don't want to? What if I only want to coach the ones who are actually ready?" And then we give both people— both people give one another permission. So the first is always the decision stage.

Why?

Because unbeknownst to a lot of people, they are addicted to the emotions of the past. They are addicted to retelling the story over and over and over again. So the neuropeptides in their body start saying, oh yes, we're familiar with this story. We're going to give her this huge sense of certainty now. And so they have to come to a point where it says, "I am done. I am done. I don't want to live like this anymore." So they have to decide, draw a line in the sand, and say, "I from this point on, this is what it means to be resolute." You know, people have these New Year's resolutions. Come November, they still haven't resolved anything. So to be resolute is to say, from this moment on. I'm done. That needs to be the decision. And so we never underestimate the power of a decision. And the second step is permission. Permission. You must give me permission. You must give yourself permission to come on this journey and to trust the process. But the process of this, um, you could call it a spiritual awakening, if you will. Um, I, I I prefer to call it much, much more realistic words. The process of spiritual awakening is not this love and light and peace and mung beans and everything is going to be amazing and fantastic. The spiritual journey is a very painful one. It's a journey of destruction. It's a journey of disruption to destroy everything that you thought you were, who you took yourself to be. And then once we go through that process of destruction, then we can go through the process of rebuilding. And so those are the first steps. The first step is to decide and then give the other person who is your guide, your teacher, your coach, your mentor, your new peer group, to give them permission and from there to give yourself permission to live a very, very different life, but understanding, understanding that it is not from a place of love, light, peace, love among beings. That is not what the spirituality that I teach is Well, I think it's some—

I think it's very important to decide to overcome trauma before you start speaking as well. So to kind of bring it back to the speaking world, what are 2 or 3 actionable steps that somebody in my shoes can take to master the art of speaking? Because I host a lot of podcasts, I create a lot of content on social media, I've taken a couple of classes, but I have a long way to go. And I'm just curious what your next steps would be if you were in my shoes.

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So, Nick, I would separate it first. So as a keynote speaker, it's a very different skill set. To being a podcast presenter, that's a different skill set. To being a facilitator teaching in front of the room, that's a different skill set again. And so if we were to speak to keynote speaking, as we started this podcast speaking about, the very, very first thing— and, and this is, um, sometimes I, you know, the, the speaking, um, teachers, uh, will hate me for this— to understand that it's not a 7-day course. I'm speaking to keynote speakership. Yes, I'm not speaking to any other key— why? Because you have to really craft your story. They're going— why, why should they listen to you? Why am I going to listen to you to inspire me? Why am I going to book you to set the key tone for this whole conference of hundreds or thousands of people? Why would I? And so you have to really give them— or have to have a reason to speak for them. Do you have a story? Or if you don't think you have a story, can you get someone to help you dive deeper into your story? And then from there, the first part is to craft the story. And sometimes— so I had a client who— this is— it would be almost 3 years ago now, 3 years ago, and her husband died of cancer. And 3 years ago, she was still in it. She was still in the grief stage. And by the way, grief is a wonderful doorway to transformation if you know how to work with grief. And I said, what do you wanna speak about? And she goes, I want to speak about grief and death and dying. And I said, okay, so you wanna be a keynote speaker. Tell me why a conference of say 4,000 people will want to to listen to you set the key tone on the world stage and talk about grief and death and dying if it is not a conference about grief and death and dying? Why should people listen to you? And she took it really, really well because why? She decided that she wanted me to be her coach and 2, she gave me permission. And I said to her, do you know that your husband dying of cancer is a so what story? It's so what? So what? And I said that to land a particular point, right? I didn't say that to— I have no interest in upsetting people or insulting them for no reason. And I said, if you trust the journey of your own evolution and this journey that we're going to have together to coach you out of and help you coach yourself out of this grief period, Your husband dying is going to be something that happened. Something, by the way, happened because what is on the other side and who you are going to become because of this—that's when people are going to say that is why I'm going to listen to her. And so it's not going to be; it's going to be something else. We don't know yet because we haven't seen how you're going to evolve and how you're going to grow and what more layers you're going to have through this journey. But when I meet you on the other side, when we hold hands and. Hands together on the other side. Your husband dying is going to be something that just happened, that has been a part of your story, that has made you who you are, that has given you credibility, so to speak, so that you can speak from this from from this position. But your job as a keynote speaker is to set the key tone with inspiration, with spirit. So let us make you as inspirational as possible so that you can become a person on the keynote stage that people want to listen to. And so. She's been with me now for almost 4 years. And whatever has come about is so much more, so much more rich and beautiful than someone on stage who's speaking about her husband dying of cancer. And so, the beautiful part of it is her keynote changes and changes and changes all the time. And so, these things take time. We have to get the content first before we get the wordsmithing. We have to dive deep into the person so that they can believe you on stage. Otherwise, you can smell a phony a mile away, right? And then get that really masterful first. And that comes well, well, well before the stagecraft. And the stagecraft takes time too.

I feel like I keep asking questions. Nick, did you have anything that you wanted to follow up? Sorry. Oh, okay. I lost—

No, no, no, all good, all good.

All right, if I can just, um, answer one more question with Luke apart. And the other part also is that, um, for, for yourself, Luke, you have the authority. You are an author. You, you, you have read a gazillion books. And so the journey also Why it takes a while is to build your authority, your credibility, whether it be birthing a new book, whether it be birthing a podcast, whether it be birthing a whole lot of blogs. You have to give— you have to have the library of authorship, of authority. Otherwise, why on earth would people pay you all that money or spend all that time to listen to you? And that's the important part that takes time to build as well. I was at a conference of a very well-known speaker. And he was telling everyone that everyone has a book, everyone has a story, and go out. And I just shook my head and I said, everyone does have a story, but is it a so-what story?

Is it a so-what story?

I love that point.

Me too.

A bitter pill to swallow, right? A bitter pill to swallow, but that's the reality.

And how do you know if it's a, if it's a so-what story? Like, that will tell you.

Your coach will tell you.

Well, I just want to throw something out there in that, uh, we had— we interviewed an author recently, Matt Higgins. Uh, he's guested on Shark Tank and wrote a bestselling book, Burn the Boats. And he— one thing that he expressed was his discontent with how many authors tell us so-what Like, okay, you know, your parents passed away, or, you know, you had a rough childhood and you grew up in the ghetto, or, you know, you lost your best friend, or your dad doesn't like you, or whatever. It's like, so what? Yeah, I agree. So what? And I think it's a really important point that you're making. If you want to write your story and tell your story, it has to be more than so what.

Yeah. And that comes with a lot of ego strength. You have to have ego strength.

Can you maybe unpack that a little bit? Like, what is— what would you consider ego strength to let that land?

So for example, my friend, if I said to— or my client who is now my very good friend, if I said to her, Yvette, this is— your husband dying is a so-what story. To have no ego strength would be to walk away and say, fuck you, Pauline. You've insulted me. What do you know? How dare you? You know, and I, as a coach, Which that's one of the first things I say, you have to have a lot of ego strength to work with me because I want to get you there fast. And in order to get you there fast, we have to walk down not one long hall of mirrors, numerous long halls of mirrors. And that's the— someone asked me the other day, what do you do, Pauline? And I said, I am a freedom fighter. I'm a freedom fighter. Yeah. I help people and myself fight against the, you know, society's— this conforming society, what society expects of me. I love doing what people don't expect of me, you know, fighting against these confines, boxing me in, you know, labeling me. But most of all, I'm a freedom fighter, freedom from myself. Freedom from my self-imposed limitations. Freedom from all the stories I've been telling myself about myself and believe. Freedom from the propaganda of my distortions. So I'm a freedom fighter. That's what I do. And so for someone to have ego strength is to say, I've decided I don't want to live like this anymore. I've given Pauline permission. I also now give myself permission to release everything and to start anew. So ego strength. And I get a lot of requests also for from parents who want me to coach their teenage children because they've had so much life changes themselves. And I won't coach their teenage children. They are not for me because most teenagers I know, they don't have the ego strength to work with me.

Yeah, I mean, that makes perfect sense. And it can be so hard for somebody who, you know, a teenager or somebody who's lower In this level.

No, no, no. I never use the word lower, Luke. There's no lower or higher. It's simply an earlier stage. An earlier stage. They haven't lived the life yet. They haven't had the experience yet. And so, if we use earlier and later, my niche, I prefer to work with people who are at a later stage of development. So, we're never higher or lower because you were there once too, right?

Yeah. Yes. Not long ago I was there. It's, it's a beautiful thing. Like you're talking about, um, it's like depression, you know, we talked to, you talked a little bit about the addiction to the emotion. For so long I was addicted to this feeling of depression. It was comfortable for me and it was like just me seeing that and admitting that to myself, it was like such an eye-opening moment to me. I was like, holy smokes, I literally enjoy this.

Yeah.

Like, I get up in the morning and I want to be depressed.

Yeah, because it's the certainty. Yeah, it's the same certainty as why one would smoke. And when we smoke, it's not that, oh, it's not only that if I take this inhalation. I was a smoker in my young teenage party girl years. And it's not that so much as if I inhale, my body will feel better, sure. But it's also the knowing that If I inhale, I will definitely feel this. It's that, it's that, you know. And so, um, you wake up because it's familiar.

Yeah. And a quick Google search says that roughly 280 million people suffer from depression. So it's like, so what? Like, good for you and everybody else, you know. It's a stage and you have to move past it. I love that perspective.

It's your choice if you want, if you want, right? Because not everyone wants to heal.

Oh, I want to bring the ones I love along with me. And I've realized as I've, as I've gotten to the next stage in my development, that they're not on the same path. And it's really, really difficult for me to not like, want to just like, I don't know, shake them, be like, wake up, let's get to the next stage, get over the depression. So what, and all this, and they're not there yet. So what's your advice to somebody like me who feels like I am getting through to these next stages, but the people I love and care about are still in their earlier stages.

Yes. And so, Luke, I speak a lot to responsibility. If we break up the word, it is to be response-able, to be response-able. And so, and this may be a— the more perspectives we can hold, the more free we will become, right? And so, I'm going to Frame it this way: Who the hell are you to fix them? What right do you have? This and and I and I say that to trigger you a little bit, right? Because what you're offering there is over responsibility. How do you know what they're going through is not meant to be their path? That's like saying to my 18-year-old daughter, "Come on, be 25 years old already. Come on." She has to go through the stages. They have to go through the stages. And so the journey of healing is revealing. And in order to reveal that, you have to feel it. In order to heal it, you have to feel it. And so to understand that they're not ready for it to be seen, they're not ready for it to be revealed to them. It was revealed to you and you were ready to see it. Not everyone is ready to see it. And so, until they're ready, you can push them and go, hurry up, grow up already, grow up already. But who are you to make them go faster on their life journey? But the best thing, the biggest advice that I could give you, Luke, you go on your trajectory. You grow as much as your heart's desire. You now follow your path. And then one day, one day, they're gonna say, hey, babe, can I have some of that, please? Yeah. Can I have some of that, please? Because they're going to watch you and they're going to— everyone's always watching. People are always watching. And so the best advice is to love them, to hold them in that, to hold space for them, to answer any questions they have. But it's a— ego is involved a little bit as well. So it's a case of your journey is your journey. I love you. I will always be here for you, but I can't make you go any faster than you wish to. But then one day, I promise you, if you keep on your journey and those that really love you, they're gonna say, can I have some of that, please? And so the purpose of ego is this sense of security, right? And so for those who are in the earlier stages, the purpose of ego is security. The nature of ego is insecurity. The destiny of ego is surrender. What does that mean? It means the purpose of ego— no, no, I gotta put on this mask. I gotta put on this armor. I gotta speak this way. Ego's trying to protect me. But isn't that in and of itself insecurity? To always want security is in and of itself insecurity. And so the purpose of ego—

Exactly.

Is security. And the nature of insecurity of the ego is insecurity, but the destiny of ego, the destiny of ego is ultimately surrender. To surrender what? To surrender wanting to fix people, to surrender to going on your life journey, surrendering to— and you mentioned earlier on this connection with God. God for me is the grand organized design, the universe, the absolute surrender to the basic trust that this universal intelligence It's far, far, far more intelligent than this human brain could ever be. And when we live that life, things change a gazillionfold. We start living life very, very differently when we understand that.

You're just speaking so much truth. And it's really wild because you said the stages, you can't fix them. And I was just thinking back to my life and I'm like, yeah, how many times did I receive a message or receive something and didn't, wasn't able to take it because I wasn't ready for it yet because it wasn't my path. And just thank you so much for that.

Yeah. And that's okay. But we can't. Why can't we? Because they are in an earlier stage of development and we can't will ourselves to go through it faster by ourselves. Otherwise it wouldn't be development, would it? We have to give ourselves time to develop just as we need to give them time to develop. But if we get the right teachers, the right coaches, the right peer group, we read the right books, we learn the lessons, and we integrate, we integrate, and they're going to watch you and say one day, please, Luke, can I have some of that?

Well, Pauline, as Book Thinkers continues to grow and as we host in-person events, we'll definitely have you come and kick things off.

It'll be my joy.

I love it. For somebody in the audience that's like, hey, I'd like Pauline to speak at my next event or conference or know somebody that might want to interview you for a spot, what's the best place to go? How do people get in touch?

Oh, thank you. That'll be amazing. Look, I'm on Instagram, I'm on LinkedIn, but the best way to— I represent myself— to connect with me on my website and look up speakership, keynote speakership, keynotes on my website, pauline-nguyen.com.

Amazing. We will definitely get all of that in the show notes. And Luke, any final questions before we let Pauline go?

I just want to just express my gratitude for you. Thank you for your time and the space and talking. Your story is incredible. I literally, like, I was so excited to talk to you today, so, and you just completely overdelivered on expectations and everything else. So thank you so much. This has been such a blessing of a time, and I can't wait until the next time we get to talk to you.

Amazing. It was my joy, and thank you so much, Nick and Luke. And, you know, lots and lots of love to you guys and to your audience.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers, Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives. By reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.