2. Russell Brunson: Author of Dotcom Secrets

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to episode number 2 of the brand new podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, I interview some of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and to live better. In this episode, I have the pleasure to interview the author and entrepreneur Russell Brunson. For the past 10 years, Russell has built a following of entrepreneurs in the millions. He has also sold hundreds of thousands of copies of his books and popularized the concept of sales funnels. After co-founding his business ClickFunnels, which has done over $100 million in its first 3 years, Russell has become one of the internet's favorite entrepreneurs. I know he's one of mine. Our conversation touches on his book DotCom Secrets, some sales advice for everybody, and also some very funny yet very embarrassing wrestling stories from both my past experiences wrestling as well as his. Book Thinkers family, please enjoy my conversation with Russell Brunson. Russell, thank you so much for joining the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. For those in my network that aren't familiar with your work, can you talk to us a little bit about who is Russell Brunson?

Yes, definitely. I am a pretty normal average guy. As you know, I'm a wrestler, which is— I'm sure we'll talk a little more about that throughout this thing. When I was actually wrestling in college, I met my beautiful wife. We got engaged, and then I was we're about to get married, and my dad was like, "So how are you gonna support her? Are you gonna quit wrestling? Are you gonna whatever?" I'm like, "No, I can't quit wrestling." He's like, "Well, how are you like?" Because at the time that they were kind of supporting me, he's like, "When you're married, you're a big kid now. Like you're in charge of your own life." And I was like, "Oh no, I don't even know what to do." And so I started scrambling. I had to figure out a way to make money because I don't want to quit wrestling. And so I started studying all sorts of things about how to make money on the internet, and and that was. 18 years ago now.

Wow.

And so that kind of started me on this journey, and I spent the first 10 years or so like learning how to do it and building up my own businesses. And we ended up launching companies, you know, supplement companies and couponing companies and diet companies and like just all sorts of different companies and learning these principles of how we grow companies online. And about, man, it's almost 6 years ago now, we had this idea for a software company that basically would do what we, what we were doing, right? Like we would build these, these sales funnels, which are similar to website but a little different. Um, and, uh, but it was hard to make. We had to custom code all these things. And so I have an amazing business partner. He built, uh, the first version of ClickFunnels, the software. About that time, I was writing my first book, DotCom Secrets, which is teaching people these principles of sales funnels that married with the software. And, uh, we launched the book and the software within a couple months of each other, and the whole thing's gone crazy. It's been taking off. We have over 100,000 active customers using the platform now, and it's been the ride of a lifetime. And so I have the opportunity to talk to entrepreneurs. I'm obsessed with entrepreneurs and helping them get their idea, their product, their message out to the world. And that's kind of what we do. And we try to make tools and write books and things to make that process more simple for them.

So yeah.

Awesome.

Well, I love the introduction. And in the Book Thinkers family audience, we do have a lot of entrepreneurs, and we also have a lot of salespeople. And so I wanted to share with you that I've been in— I've been a professional salesperson for the last 6 years working for somebody else, and now I'm getting into full-time Book Thinkers mode and we're expanding the business. So I'm going to be a customer of yours. But what's interesting is that I've read about 40 sales books cover to cover, every single word. I've studied them, I've practiced them, and for whatever reason, up until now, up until the preparation for our conversation, I didn't know anything about sales funnels. And so You are the sales funnel guy. Can you share with the Book Thinkers family a little bit about what is a sales funnel and why can it help an entrepreneur or a salesperson become more successful?

Yeah, it's funny. You think about most salespeople by default, most of them are very extroverted, right? They go to people and start talking and they feel comfortable. And so most sales books are written from that, that format of like, hey, here's how you talk to the person, you resolve concerns and objections. And like, you know, that's how most sales things happen. Now, My background is I'm very actually super introverted. People don't believe that because I get on stage and I talk in front of a bunch of people, but in real life, like I'm awkward, I'm nervous, and I don't enjoy it at all. And so I had to figure out, like, if I want to make money, I gotta sell stuff, but how do I do it without actually talking to humans? Because that's like, that's my dream, right? And so that's kind of how this whole thing started, was I trying to figure those things out. And what's interesting, a funnel is very, very similar to like a one-on-one sales presentation, right? You think about, you know, most websites are kind of like a grocery store. You walk in and you're like, oh, there's a million different products and options, and they walk to this shelf and this shelf and they're buying stuff on their own. It's not guided though, right? That's what a website is. A sales funnel is very much like you walk in front of the store and there's a salesperson there saying, hey, thanks for coming to our store. Have you ever been here before? Oh cool, can I get your email address? That way if you leave or can't find what you want, I can email you later and get ahold of you. They're like, sure. So they get the contact information. Then they're like, hey, now I have your information. What are you actually looking for? And they're like, oh, well I'm going camping this weekend. Oh, are you looking for a tent? Cool, the tent's over here. And they take you to that section, they get you the tent. And they're like, now you got the tent, what's the next thing you need? If you're going camping, do you have sleeping bags? Like, oh, well, sleeping bags over here. And they take them and they walk you through a very customized sales process. So it's not just like, you know, shooting a gun in the air hoping that they can find all this stuff. It's a very strategic step-by-step process. And so it's basically taking selling, like face-to-face selling, and pulling yourself out of the equation. So if you ever come to any of my funnels, you'll notice it's like there's me and I'm speaking to you as if we just met on the street and I'm telling you a story, I'm building a conversation and getting you excited and I make you an offer. And then hopefully say yes. If he says yes, then it goes to the next page, like, cool, you bought the book, that means next logical thing you need is this. And then it takes them through this customized sales process. That's kind of what a sales funnel is. I figured out a lot of these things because I was, again, I was awkward, I didn't know how to sell face-to-face. So how do I do this in a way where it's like I can set up the process once, step away from it, and then just have people come and it sells for me 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, whether I'm there or I'm not? And that's kind of where the whole methodology of sales funnels kind of originally came from.

Yeah, I think it's fantastic. And I learned so much, like in your introductions that I've seen from other people introducing you, they call you a marketing genius and a sales genius. And I really think that you are because you popularized sales funnels. You popularized the term and your business ClickFunnels. And so now that I'm in the network, I'm in the network, you know what I mean?

And I'm learning about this kind of stuff.

You can't take it away from me now. What's interesting too in the book is about that sales process. You get people to focus on one thing at a time, which is really important. And then once they've executed on one thing, then you move them to the next thing. And you talk a little bit about how the biggest mistake that entrepreneurs and salespeople make is once somebody executes on one sale, they either don't try to upsell them or they try to upsell them the same thing. So why is it important for people to upsell the next product? And do you have any other metaphors? Like you use the The tent and now you might need a sleeping bag. How else can people understand that concept a little bit more?

It's funny because this took me a while to figure this out. For example, let's say a traditional sales funnel. Let's say I have a book about— in fact, this is the first time I got it. I sold this book that showed 108 split tests that we had run in our company. It's like this page versus this page, this ad versus this ad, and we had 108 winners that we put in this book, and it was a really cool book. And so people were buying it, so I was like, okay, if someone buys this book, it means they're interested in split testing, right? Like, they've gotta want more info on split testing. So the first upsell was like, hey, I have a $200 course that's gonna teach you how to split test and all sorts of stuff like that. And almost nobody bought it, and I was like, you just told me you're interested in split testing, why are you not buying my split testing thing? And I couldn't figure it out. And I remember one of my friends, he actually went through my sales process, and then he messaged me, he's like, hey, I'm just curious, how's your upsell doing? And before you tell me, I think it's probably, it's not doing good, is it? I was like, how do you know that? I didn't wanna reveal to him that my thing was failing. And I was like, how do you know that? And he's like, you have to understand this principle. He's like, when somebody comes to your website, they have an itch, right? There's an itch they want scratched. And he talked about, when he was messaging me, he was like, for example, let's say you wanna get 6-pack abs. You're overweight, you're struggling, you're like, I want abs. And so you go to a website that's selling you a book, an ebook or something about how to get abs. And you're like, yes, I'm gonna get abs. So you get your credit card, you buy the product, and he's like, as soon as you've done that, that itch has been scratched. In their mind, like, I've got abs now. Like, I haven't even gone through the product yet, but I've solved that problem, I've got abs, this is amazing. And so the next page is like, cool, you bought my ab ebook, do you want my ab workout video program? You're like, but I have abs, I just bought abs, like, I'm good, why would I buy the next thing? Like, I already scratched that itch. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so true. And he's like, yeah, I just bought split tests, why would I buy more split tests? I don't need more of the same thing. I need the next thing. Like, what's the next logical thing somebody needs in your sales process? You know, it's like going to the store, you buy a tent, you're like, sweet, you got a tent, you want another tent? You're like, I have a tent. You know? And so for us, it's really important for us to strategically think about that sales process. Like, hey, somebody who's bought this book on split tests, what's the next thing they need? Well, if they have split tests, the next thing they need is they need more traffic, right? Or they need more, or whatever the next logical thing is. Or if they just bought Six Pack Abs, the next thing is like, And what happens when you go to the grocery or when you go out to eat with your buddies and your friends and you're at McDonald's or Burger King and you're like, I need some food, but you're like, I don't know what to eat and I want my abs. Well, here's the book that's gonna show you exactly what you can order at fast food restaurants or whatever the thing is, right? Like the next logical thing.

Totally.

And so it's thinking through that journey of the customer in your mind and then creating offers that match the next logical thing. And so for me, when I switched it from the split testing course to like a traffic course, it was like 20% of the customers bought the $200 traffic course where before it was like half of a half a percent bought the other one and it was just like, I just I miss the logical sequencing, and anyways, when you think about it, it becomes really fun. And I used to—it's funny—back even like like for years, I mean, man, I can't imagine how much money I lost out on. I would just do random if I had an upsell. Oh, here's a random thing and another thing. And the more I realize, it's just like okay, I'm on a journey with them. What's the pain they're in? What's they're coming to me for? They're scratching that itch. What's the next thing? The next logical thing I got to solve for them. And what's the next logical thing? You know, in a perfect world, every time you sell something. it solves that problem, but it opens up the next problem, right? If I convince you you need a sales funnel, you're like, sweet, I need sales funnels. I'm like, okay, now you gotta go learn how to code it, or you can use ClickFunnels to make it. You're like, oh, I need ClickFunnels. You get ClickFunnels. You're like, okay, I have ClickFunnels now. Now what? It's like, well, you need to get traffic to your funnels. It's like, oh. Every problem you solve opens up the next problem that you can then solve for your customer as well.

Wow, what a fantastic lesson. I think everybody needs to go back and listen to that again, because upselling is, It's often overlooked, right? And a lot of people don't pay attention to that logical sequencing of the upsell and the product. I think it's so interesting just to hammer it into everybody's heads again that every time you sell something, you're creating another problem that needs to be solved. And so that's fantastic. Well, let's transition now to a little bit about this book right here, DotCom Secrets. I know that some of our conversations have been about this book already, but What I really found interesting, and I know everybody will love this story, is that about halfway through the book on secret number 11, book funnels, you talk about your funnel-loving chiropractor. You guys were sitting at a Carl's Jr. and you had an epiphany. What was that epiphany? Can you share that with everybody?

Yeah, so he's a chiropractor, but he's also one of my close friends, and he's kind of in this world a little bit, he dabbles here and there. We're sitting there watching our kids play on the playground, eating the most disgusting, unhealthy food known to man, and loving every minute of it. And he was like, you know the difference between you and Tony Robbins or Brendon Burchard, who are both my friends? And I was like, what? I always thought I was kind of, you know. He's like, they seem more legit because they've got a book. And I was like, oh. But like, oh. And he's like, yeah, I can't say anything else. They have a book and you don't. And I was like, dang it. And I had been thinking about writing. In fact, I owned the domain name .comsecrets for like a decade. I knew someday I wanted to write a book called this because it's like, But I don't know why, I just never did it. And there's, you know, there's a million mental reasons why people don't write a book. I think most people want to, right? Like, I think all of us come to Earth and we're here and we're learning all these things. It's like part of our role in life is like assemble all the stuff we learn and put it into a framework we can then share with, with people after us, right? And so I'd spent 10 years thinking about some brainstorming and trying things out, and it was like, I need to write a book. So that night is when I started the process for writing DotCom Secrets, the very first book I wrote. Um, was because of, because of that, um, that experience of him making fun of me. So—

And you said it took about a year for you to complete the book?

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Some people can write books really fast. I've got friends who, who go to cabin for a weekend, they got a book. For me, it's a, it's a, it's a big process. I mean, every book so far has taken me, uh, years to write. Actually the fastest, usually they're about 18 months per book for me because there's so much that goes into it. Um, yeah. So That's how it took. I'm gonna link to the first one.

Yeah, and then you said, uh, it was like the coolest feeling in the world holding that book once it finally got to you. And now you have 4, and I'm sure you've got a lot of other ebooks that live out there in the universe.

So there's something about that when you get the first book, like, they, they— the publisher always sends you like a box of like, I don't know, 5 or 8 or something like that. And you get it and you know it's coming. Also, it shows up, you're like, do I open it? Do I not? Like, oh, and I remember getting it like Hold it. I can remember just like, I don't know, like holding the first time and just being like, oh my gosh, this is like a decade of my life, like 10 years of like trial. I always tell people you have to earn a book, right? Like 10 years of me earning this book to be able to put it out there. It's like, this is going to shortcut people a decade of like trial and error that they can just like, oh, here's the download. This is what I figured out. Like just start from here instead of going through all the headaches I went through to get here.

Yeah, we have— we— and I know you mentioned it too. We have a lot of people talk about that condensing decades into days metaphor. And it's attributed to— well, I know a lot of different people talk about it. Tony talks about it, you talk about it. Just had Jim Kwik on the other day, he was talking about it. And it's such a powerful lesson. You can really condense decades of Russell's life into days and then execute on it using the tools that he's built for you. And all of a sudden you can make some money, although your first funnel will probably fail, but then you'll get to make some money.

Eventually you'll get there.

Yeah. Well, do you have any specific recommendations for first-time authors outside of the The fact that it'll take a long time and you need to build up experience? Because I know the Book Thinkers family audience does have a lot of people who are aspiring authors and they are successful business owners and they want to share those lessons with people. So is there anything that maybe is a little less cliché or outside of the box that you've experienced or that you give to your friends or family when they say, hey, should I write a book?

I think the biggest thing is, and I think it's a tragedy, like most people write a book and they sell a couple hundred copies and it kind of ends there. And I think Chapter 11, I think you said, about book funnels is understanding that you can stimulate growth of a book. A book doesn't just come like, oh, it's a great book, so it virally gets spread. Some books do that, right? But in fact, I'm really good friends with Rachel Hollis, who last year had the number one, I think the only person that outsold her was Michelle Obama, right? She sold more books than anybody else in the world and just became this household brand. Everyone I know, anyway, it's crazy. But even her, it wasn't just like, I put out a book and everyone passed it along. It was, you have to figure out how are you selling this, what's the marketing strategy, what's the process and how it works? And just, I'd love to share this with people so they get a glimpse of this, right? So I've got my 3 books and then a workbook. So DotCom Secrets, Expert Secrets, and Traffic Secrets. And for example, right now, we still sell all 3 of the main core books. We sell anywhere from, from 1,000 to 3,000 or 4,000 of these books a week, but it's all profitable up front. So the way it works is we put someone through a book funnel, right? So if you go to dotcomsecrets.com and you buy the book, there's the book, and then of course I'm gonna upsell you the audiobook, and then there's the box set, and there's things that we take you through in that funnel. But as of last time I checked a week or two ago, we were spending about $18 to $19 in Facebook ads and Instagram and Google and YouTube to sell one copy of the book. that we give away for free. So it's like, you look at that, you're like, oh, Russell's losing money, he's a moron, right? He spends $20 to make $7.95 shipping, you still gotta pay for the book and the printing. But then the funnel happens, right? And so what's cool is that on average, and it fluctuates throughout the month and traffic source, but on the low end we make about $40, on the high end about $70 per customer inside the book funnel. So it means I'm spending $20 to sell a book, I'm making $40, in the book funnel immediately. So I actually make money. So every time I sell a book, I make $40 after all the ad costs and everything. And so unlike a lot of authors who have it on Amazon and they're out there and they're like, they're doing things to try to sell, they can't like stimulate growth where we can go in and just buy ads all day long and sell thousands of copies a week of the books consistently. You know, DotCom Secrets has been out for 5 years now. It's just we continually keep selling, selling, selling them because of that. So it's understanding that these funnels we're talking about, they aren't just like a nice way to make money. It's a way to get your message out, a way to get your book out, a way to get your thing out to more people is understanding these principles. Because if you can make a book funnel that's self-liquidating, so you're profitable, every book you sell you make money, even if you're spending $20 to sell a book, and then you're getting your message out there, that's the power. And then those who know, I own a company called ClickFunnels, and ClickFunnels, people think it's like, oh, you drive tons of traffic to ClickFunnels, but I'm like, we don't. We drive traffic to the books, people read the books, And then we tell them later in the email sequence about ClickFunnels. And so it doesn't cost us money to grow ClickFunnels either, which is kind of confusing until you read the book, it makes more sense, you see how the funnels work. But it gives you the ability to grow any company. I've seen it now with people with supplement companies using this model to blow up supplement companies, software companies, hedge funds, like everything you can dream of. This process works to grow these companies really, really easily. So it's kind of fun.

It does. And you mentioned Rachel. Hollis, she and her husband are now putting out a workout app and they've got all these other things that they've got going on. So they're, they're definitely disciples of the sales funnel.

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's funny. She actually, in quarantine, I sent them a copy of the box set and Rachel read it, uh, DotCom Secrets. She's texting me like every hour like, how have I not known about funnels? Like, this is like, oh, like freaking out. She's so excited about the whole process. And I was like, I know I keep telling you this thing, but, um, it took her sitting down reading the book to be like, oh, I see how it works now. And I was telling them, I'm like, can you imagine the Hollis Co., which is already blowing up like crazy, applying sales funnels? It's going to be like game over. Like, I'm super jealous.

Well, I had a similar experience, man. I mean, when I was going through DotCom Secrets, I have a business partner at Book Thinkers, and I was taking so many pictures and sending him specific pieces of information or specific secrets that I wanted him to learn about. And he was a little overwhelmed and he's just like, okay, okay, I'm reading the book. You know, where should I start? I said, the whole thing, you have to read the whole thing. And now I have 2 more books in the workbook to go, so I'm super excited as well. And, uh, so let's talk about another specific thing from the book, the attractive character identities. So I know that there are 4 that you put in the book, and by choosing one of those and kind of filtering your communication through that, it helps you communicate more efficiently with your audience. And so Each reader of the book normally identifies with one of those 4 attractive character identities, and they can change over time just like they did for you. And so when I was reading through those, I identified with the reporter, and that's a good representation of exactly what we're doing right now. I'm having a conversation with a brilliant entrepreneur, I'm learning these lessons, I'm putting them into my life, and I'm relaying those out to my audience, my bigger community, and it helps me grow, but it also helps me become more credible. so that I can move to one of those other identities over time. And so why do you think being a reporter is a good way to start if you're excited about the business niche that you're in?

Yeah, so as you saw in the book, like, I started the same way. I was a reporter, that's how I got started. I think in almost every case, that's where somebody should start because initially, this is the problem that I think a lot of times authors and experts and people have is they come in and they've got their view of the world, right? A good example of this is I'm friends with Howard Berg, who's the world's fastest reader. Do you know Howard, by the way?

I don't, but I would love an introduction.

You should have him on the show. He is the most fascinating person in the world. Guinness Book of World Records. He read my— he read the Expert Secrets book live in under 4 minutes, and then I quizzed him and knew every— like, it's insane. He's the most— anyway, he's amazing. But I had him out to Boise to hang out with him a couple times now. He's such a cool person. And I asked him, it's like at dinner time, I was like, I got a question for you. I'm like, what's your opinion on God? Because you've read, he's read like 30,000 books. And he kind of smiles. He's like, you know, he's like, most people, he's like, they read one book and then they base their opinion on that. He's like, the problem is that you're looking through like the one lens of the one author. He's like, what I like to do is like, I like to read 30 books. I read all of them and all of a sudden I have this holistic view of what's happening. So he's like, my view on God's different than most people because I've read every religious text that I can find. I know everything. And then he went on for like an hour and told me his views on God. And it was like the most, fascinating thing in the world. Like, oh, it was just, it was so cool. I think the same thing is the problem with a lot of people. They come out there and like, I have an idea, and they go and start teaching it and selling it. And like, it's like, it's good, but it's, it's, it's, it's very one-directional, right? Um, when you start as a reporter, you can interview a bunch of people and you're, it's the equivalent of you reading 10 or 20 or 30 books on a topic. And then from that, you can, you can base, you can create your own frameworks, your own ideas, your own concepts, as opposed to just being very, very singular focused. And so I think that's why it's so important is it's really, it's It's, it's, um, for everybody, it's part of their, their journey of like becoming an expert, becoming like a thought leader, whatever, is putting in the time to, uh, to find out the different options and find out all the different things and put it to the test and try things out. You know, I got started my business back 18 years ago. Um, I was fascinated by this marketing stuff, but I didn't know anything about marketing. So I was like, okay, well, who are the people that did? And I found them all online. I made a whole list of them and all of them, like you go to their sites and they were charged like I don't know, $20 grand an hour for consulting. I was like, well, I can't afford that. So I messaged like, hey, can you— can I interview you for my— this is pre-podcast— like, can you interview me for my, for my tele-summit I'm doing? And they're like, oh sure. I'm like, I'm getting an hour with this person to pick their brains, ask them any questions I want. And I was like, I'm getting free consulting from all these geniuses. And I did. I interviewed, man, I probably interviewed 30, 40 different people, and it just shifted like what I thought was like— what I thought was the truth shifted and all of a sudden I realized like, man, all these pieces, like everyone had pieces of the truth and I had this whole thing, it was like I have a holistic view that now I can go and create my own ideas and my own frameworks based on and share it. You know, like when you read any of my books, DotCom Secrets, Expert Secrets, Traffic Secrets, I try to give credit as much as I can remember. Like every time I learn something, here's the people I learned it from and based on all these things, this is what I kind of discovered and this is the piece I wanna share with you guys today. And so it gives you, I don't know, I think it's just a more interesting way to learn and definitely a more interesting way to be able to teach. teach later on when you do take that next role.

Wow. Well, I feel exactly as you did in those early stages right now. Book Thinkers started because we had a vision of what we wanted to do for education and how we could transform the way that people learn and self-educate because books changed my life. And so, now I'm having these amazing conversations now that I have enough credibility. To get into conversations with people like yourself. And it's helping to reframe the way that I look at business. Like, look, I've read 40 sales books and I just had an epiphany when I read your book. So there's always an opportunity to learn and sharpen the saw. And then once you do get that holistic view, things change. Your vision changes of, you know, you might've started with a product in mind and then it completely changes over time. And so that's exactly what happened. And I've enjoyed every second of it. And so now I've got a couple of personal questions. One for me. I have been balancing family and business and personal growth development and life in general, relaxation. Like, that balance is very hard to find. And I know that you have a fantastic family, you have a fantastic business, and you've grown so much over the years by listening to people and reporting on what's made them successful. So do you have any Strategies that you apply to your life or ways that you divide up time that make it easier to manage?

Yeah, um, I said there's 2 core things. Um, there's a lot of little things, but there's 2 that have like probably the biggest shifts for me. Uh, number one is, and I'm not perfect at this by any stretch, you ask my wife, she's like, he's not perfect at that, but I try really, really hard, is, um, I try to be present with wherever I'm at, right? So like if I'm, if I'm at work, like I'm at work, like Everything, like, it's focused and that's where I'm at. I'm not texting my wife and calling my kid and doing a million things. Like, I'm there. When I get home, that means like I'm present there. Like, when I walk in the door at the garage, come into the house, it's like, okay, business Russell's done. He's shifting over here. It's like, okay, this is dad Russell. I come in and from 6 till 9 or whatever till I finally get my kids to go to bed, which now we've been in quarantine, it's like 4 in the morning. But, you know, it's like, this is my time with my kids. So I try to be present and be there with them and like 100% so they know that I'm there, I care. And then when the kids are in bed, it's like shifted. It's like, this is my wife and I time. This is where we're focusing on each other. And it's like, and like the kids can be crying in the room. It's like, I don't care. Like, this is, this is our time. And I try to like to shift time and be present wherever you're at. I think the reason why most people are super inefficient and can't get stuff done, you know, because like, think about this. Like, I've got 5 kids. I got a beautiful wife. I've got church responsibilities. I've written 3 books the last 5 years. I've built a software. Like, there's so many things happening. We have 400 employees. Like, If I'm dabbling, if I'm in this conversation right now and I'm texting my friends and I'm messaging them, I can't be effective, I can't be efficient. So it's wherever you're at, being super present and just doing that. So that's one of them. The second thing is understanding team dynamics and yourself. There's no way I could've done any of these things by myself. It's funny, people are always like, yeah, Russell, you invented ClickFunnels. I'm like, I don't know how to code. I didn't invent nothing. You know what I mean? It's understanding like that, like, um, like, uh, there's different tiers of people and there's none, none are better or worse. They're all essential for you to be able to grow and create whatever you want, right? So the first tier is strategic thinkers. That's someone like me who's like, I'm very strategic. I can figure things out. Um, I can see vision, I can see stuff like that, right? So the strategic thinkers, the next tier are the managers and they're the ones who take the strategic thinking and they take stuff and they can manage the process. They can, they build checklists and Excel sheets and like, All that stuff that just stresses me out, right? They can manage the process. And then the third tier are the workers, and they're the ones who actually do the thing. And I used to think like, oh, the strategic thinker is the most important, or oh, the manager is the most— but, but it's not. Like, all the people are essential. And so in any division of our company, uh, we have to have like, hey, in this division, this, this tier, like, who's the strategic thinker? Like, there's got to be someone. If it's not, then it's going to be me, right? And then from there, like, who's the person who's going to take this strategic thought and manage it? And who are the people who are going to actually do it? And so in our company I built, you know, there's like I'm the CEO and there's there's the four or five tiers and there's a strategic thinker each tier and there's management and there's people. And so for us, like we come up with an idea and really quickly I can like I can have a strategic idea. Tell my strategic guy in that part of the company. He gets the vision. He innovates on it. Makes it even better. And then there's people that go through and can do it all. And I think that a lot of times we think that because we're the entrepreneur, because it's our business, that that we're the strategic thinker. And a lot of times. We're not. Maybe you're really good at management. Maybe you're really good at doing. And if so, if you're a really good worker, like you need to get a manager to manage you and you need to get a strategic thinker to give you vision. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing like I have to be the strategic thinker because it's my company. Like, no, if that's not your strength, like, like go to where your strength is and then surround yourself with, with the other, the other personality types, other people. And then, man, it is amazing how quickly you can move and how much you can get done in such a short period of time. You get the right people around you. So that's, those are probably the 2 biggest things is being super present. And then building a team of people that complement the things that you're not good at, that they're good at, and you can run fast, really fast.

Yeah, that— wow, that is fantastic advice. Again, I'll probably go back and listen to that every day for the next couple weeks. It reminds me a lot of The E-Myth Revisited, which is a book that talks about sort of similar 3 tiers. And I also like entrepreneurs always try to be that strategic thinker. And sometimes maybe they're the best technician and they need to put somebody else in place to handle the higher level stuff. And so putting ego aside and making sure that the business is successful and that you're helping other people, like, that is your priority. And so thank you for answering that. I'm going to reflect on that a lot and I appreciate that. And so what are some of your favorite books? I always ask people sort of 3 tiers, and I know you referenced a few of your favorite books in DotCom Secrets, but I always— I'm interested in maybe if you have any favorite health books, favorite wealth books, and then favorite love books. Love being friends, family, relationships, and self-reflection. Do you have a favorite book or a couple favorite books that might fall into one of those categories?

Yeah, and you know, books are like whatever you're reading at the time is like your favorite, and it shifts around. But, um, you know, from a business standpoint, I've been studying a lot recently is Salesforce and Marc Benioff. and they've got a book called Behind the Clouds. It's kind of like his playbook, how he built Salesforce initially. I really, really, really like that book. I've just been geeking out on it 'cause it's been really fun. I'm also a huge fan of 37signals, which is now Basecamp, and all their books like Remote and Rewind. Those books are— literally ClickFunnels is a remote company because Jason Fried wrote Remote. I was trying to get everyone to move to Boise and then that book came out and my business partner Todd read it and he's like, we're working, we're all virtual. I'm like, No, I was so mad. But now it's like, oh, I am so grateful that we're a remote team with 400+ employees because coronavirus hits and we're all like, all right, well, just stay at your house. Don't— like, all right, we're good to go, right? You know what I mean? Um, anyway, those are some business books I love. Um, uh, from like a health book, I'm a big Dave Asprey fan, which is kind of ironic because, uh, I'm a Mormon, so I don't drink coffee. He's the inventor of Bulletproof Coffee. But I really, uh, resonate with him. I become friends with him and like Uh, just the methodologies he teaches. So I had to like figure out like my version of the different things. But, um, I just like anything biohacking, things that related are just really fun. And, you know, I've got all these nerdy biohacking, you know, gadgets and gizmos here, weird sunglasses, all these things just to like increase performance. And so like, uh, I'm with you.

I'm with you 200%. I've read 2 of Dave Asprey's books and I've implemented like 50 things from them.

Yeah, those are really, really good. And then relationships, man, I'm trying to think. I don't know if I, I don't read as much relationship stuff. I do listen to podcasts. One of my favorite, Stacy and Paul Martino have a podcast called Relationship Development, I believe it's called. It's like personal development, but it's relationship development. And that's, it is, it's light years ahead of anything else I've ever read or studied. And I keep trying to convince Stacy to write a book, The world needs it. But that's been from the personal development, like, like, relationship with myself and other people, like, that's been my favorite ones for listening to. So yeah.

Wow, well, thank you for the recommendations. I know the Book Thinkers family and anybody listening today will appreciate that. And it's so funny too, because I use Salesforce and Basecamp every single day for my business, and I haven't read any books either by Mark or any of the Basecamp folks. So I will Gonna add them to my list. Hello, Book Thinkers family. A quick word from today's podcast sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, business, and my favorite, personal development. And as part of Audible's partnership with us, we're actually offering listeners a free 30-day trial. This trial includes 1 credit good for any Premium Selection titles you'd like on the whole platform. So that's pretty much any book, including the one we're talking about today. That book is yours to keep even after the trial is over. Now, this trial also includes access to Audible's Plus catalog of podcasts, audiobooks, guided wellness programs, and Audible Originals. You can listen all you want, no credits needed. Now, everyone on the Book Thinkers Instagram knows that I love physical paper books. There's nothing better than having a book in your hand Scribbling notes everywhere in the margins. I kind of tear those things up, but I've been completing an additional 20 to 30 books every single year using Audible by listening when I'm in the car, doing chores around the house, or while I'm on my morning walks or runs. You could take advantage of this free trial by clicking the link in today's show notes or going to www.bookthinkers.com/audibletrial. You will not regret it. Now, back to today's episode. So, 2 more things. I want to talk a couple funny wrestling stories. We're both wrestlers. I, I was not nearly as successful as you were, but I started wrestling because I was a football player. And at my high school, if you were a football player, one of your offseason sports basically had to be wrestling. And so I took up wrestling when I was a sophomore in high school. My junior year, I ended up wrestling in states. And, uh, you, in the book, you talk a little bit about how when you go to wrestling camps, you learn wrestling camp moves, but those moves don't actually help you. It's the fundamentals that you need to be, you know, you need to have a couple of good moves in all 3 positions and you need to practice them 10 trillion times, but the wrestling camp moves are fun. And I remember I went to Boston University and I, I was learning from some mentor of mine, some college wrestler like this, flying headlock that was so just— I mean, it would never actually be used, but then we had a little wrestling tournament, like King of the Hill style tournament, and I used it and I got pinned within like 3 seconds of the start of the match. And so I was wondering if you had just any, for the wrestlers out there, any fun stories that they would appreciate.

Yes, so it's funny, when I was growing up, my dad, my dad was a wrestler too, and he used to always tell stories about the Great Dan Gable, right? So like My whole life is like, I want to meet Dan Gable. I have to meet him. So it's as in high school, we all like me and all my buddies are saving up money to go to Iowa wrestling camp because specifically we want to shake Dan Gable's hand. I was like, if I shake his hand, I will be a better wrestler. So we saved up all of our money and we go to this camp and Dan Gable, don't know him, you're not a wrestler. He's like the Michael Jordan of our sport. Like he, uh, you know, won the Olympics. Nobody scored on him. Like he only lost one match his entire high school and college career. Like he's just, he's like our Michael Jordan. So I would go to camp and they're all the Iowa wrestlers who were teaching it. And, uh, and, um, I did eventually get to meet Dan and shake his hand, which was like— I still have not washed his hand to this day. Just kidding. Um, but they were showing this move and the guy's like, hey, this is the move. Like, don't tell your high school coaches I'm teaching you this because like they're not gonna like it. This is only do this if you're down by like 10 and you've got like one last shot to pull it off. And if you do, it's gonna be amazing. I don't even know the name of it. Um, it's this weird thing when you're on top of the guy and they blow the whistle And you like, you switch your hand from here to here and you dive underneath them and you like peanut roll through and like grab their stomach in this random thing. And we thought it was the coolest move ever. And so we practiced it, we practiced it, we practiced it. And finally it was one match, same kind of thing where like I was down by a bunch and I was like, all right, here comes the Hail Mary, it's gonna be amazing. And I go to do the move and literally instead of flipping his back, it put me directly on my back where I couldn't move and the guy ended up coming on top of me and pinning me. And I remember coming off, my coach was like, what were you thinking? I was like, it's a move we learned at Iowa camp. And he was just like, you are never going to another gay folk camp again. Oh no. Anyway, so yes, they look cool and they impress your friends, but in actual competition, it's not typically a good thing. And every camp, if anyone's been to wrestling camp, there's always moves like that. Like all the wrestling, let me show you a cool one I learned. So it's kind of funny.

I'm very happy I asked that question. Well, this was a great conversation, Russell. I appreciate your time so much. And for any audience members that are interested in learning more about you or about ClickFunnels, what do they do? What do you recommend?

I think the biggest thing to get them excited and geek out is do the same thing you did and go read the DotCom Secrets book. And we have a free offer. You just cover shipping and handling if you go to dotcomsecrets.com. It's spelled out D-O-T-C-O-M-S-E-C-R-E-T-S.com. You pay $795 for the hardbound version, and it'll give you the foundation. Like, it's— again, this is the first decade of my life was like mastering these skills. This is the book. This is the new updated hardbound version. I rewrote it late last year, so it's like, it's the stuff that's working right now. I wrote DotCom Secrets the first time, it was like my experience with funnels, and here's what I did. And now in ClickFunnels, we have over 100,000 customers, so I have a chance to see everybody's funnels and what's working at a huge mass scale that no one else has ever seen before. And so the new updated version's like, based on everything I'm seeing and everything we're learning, this is what works. And so then, as you know, there's 10 different funnels. So if you're selling a book, there's the book funnel. If you're selling a course, here's the funnel you use. If you're selling coaching, consulting, physical products, no matter what it is you're selling, there's a funnel that you plug into that'll help you grow your company quickly. So DotCom Secrets is the first one to start off with. It'll give you guys a foundation and get you excited about sales funnels and how they work for you and for your business.

Awesome. Appreciate the time today. Hope to have you back on soon.

Awesome, man. Thanks so much.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. To discover more books, more mentors, and more resources that you can use to achieve more and live better, make sure you check out our website at www.bookthinkers.com. There you'll find links to our mobile application, more podcast episodes, our shop so you can get some Book Thinkers swag, and our socials. With that, I'm signing off and I'll see you for next week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.