202. Diane Allen | Flow: Unlock Your Genius, Love What You Do

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Diane Allen, author of Flow: Unlock Your Genius, Love What You Do. Diane is an international speaker, violinist, and has a viral TED Talk. She is also a thought leader who speaks on increasing the meaning, joy, and fulfillment in one's work and life by accessing the flow state. Years before neuroscientists discovered the positive impact of the flow state has on achieving peak performance, Diane had already experienced the power of flow in her own career as a violinist. She has now discovered the keys to getting into this powerful state At any moment. If you stick around to the end, we go through a beautiful practice with Diane while she plays the violin and helps us get into a peaceful state of flow. In this episode, you'll learn about how interruptions can kill your flow, why the flow state is the optimal state of mind where you feel your best and perform your best, why understanding your unique flow triggers and creating an environment conducive to flow can help you achieve peak performance and fulfillment, the keys to experiencing flow, and all about the things you can do to ensure you get into flow at any time you want. If you've heard of flow and you've wondered how to actually get into this state, look no further. Diane is going to teach you the exact methods star athletes, musicians, and high achievers use every day, whether they realize it or not. And by the way, if you still don't think you can achieve this state of flow, Diane is giving out a free gift at the end of this episode that will help you get there. And just one more thing. Before we get into the conversation, I'm going to play a little preview of Diane playing the violin Live on this episode. This is a very special episode that I hope you enjoy. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Diane Allen.

Diane Allen, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. We're super excited to talk about your bestselling book, which just happened today. Congratulations. And here's my first question. You say in your book that interruptions are the number one killer of flow. And there are so many people in our audience who are early-stage entrepreneurs, they're young professionals, they're looking to get the most out of life, and that's why they're reading books. And achieving a state of flow, I think, is super important. So here's my question: how do we start to achieve flow by minimizing distractions? Yeah.

I'll give you, for those of you watching the video, you'll have a visual. For the rest of you, I'll describe the visual. I am holding up a door hanger, the kind that you put on your hotel doorknob to say, do not disturb, only this one says, I'm in my flow. On the back, it says, interruptions are the number one killer of flow. This is swag that goes along with my book when I see people in person. And that includes you not interrupting yourself. So there's both external interruptions and internal interruptions. Internal interruptions. Oh, quick, let's look at, you know, social media, or, oh, let me check on the news, or, or, or letting the texts overwhelm you, right? You know, just answering everything, just putting your phone on Do not disturb. Great way to stop those interruptions and then to notice when you're interrupting yourself and then to put a clear boundary. Somebody told me recently that they had a job where people worked in cubicles. And so you've got, you know, a lot of background noise and people talking, right? That kind of thing. And somebody there figured out how to attach on the top of his cubicle a light that had a red light and a green light. And if the red light was on, that meant do not disturb. If the green light was on, that meant sure, come on over. And with just like a little bit of training and, you know, kind of fun way to do it, right? They said it was really effective. And this guy controlled the environment even though he was in that kind of an environment.

I'm sitting here today with Ken Rusk, who has done hundreds of millions of dollars in business. He's also sold tens of thousands of books and changed countless lives. We're sitting here today because he is sponsoring today's episode. So Ken, tell everybody about your course.

Well, thank you.

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Oh my goodness. All right, so I could be getting the timeline messed up on this, and I think it's so important to the— to not have distractions, and especially in the world of working remotely, working from home. I work from home, and my wife and I, we homeschool our kids, so there's like a lot of easy distractions that can, that can come about. Now, before we get into all of the nitty-gritty of distractions and trying to get yourself in a state of flow, I would love to understand your story a little bit more. Now, you were playing your last symphony in Beethoven, and I think you stopped playing the violin for 4 to 5 years. I could be wrong on the timeline there. Maybe it was shorter, maybe it was longer, but I'd love to understand how you went from, okay, you were playing in a symphony to not playing at all to getting to flow?

Oh, man. Okay. Talk about like just diving right in.

Okay.

So fully trained violinist, New York City violin training, full career as an orchestral violin. I taught violin for 28 years to hundreds of violin students. Playing in an orchestra is a leadership role. I was the lead violinist, the second in command to the conductor. And so high precision, right? Playing a high precision instrument under high performance. However well I performed, whether poorly or rocking it, would have a ripple effect throughout the orchestra. So I had to get into flow because getting into flow is an optimal state of mind when you feel your best and you perform your best. I like to describe it as when your genius and your heart become one. And when you see a musician getting into the music, that is getting into the flow state. Okay. It just looks a certain way for musicians. So I relied completely 100% on flow for everything, for my personal performance, for my ability to get into the music as well as to— so the electromagnetic field of the heart reaches out 3 feet around you. And so the deeper I get into flow, the more that vibe gets transferred into that 3-foot circle around me. The brain is like 60% less electromagnetic field. Okay. So everybody in my sphere of that, you know, 3-foot— I can't remember what the word is, but, you know, the 3 feet around me in any direction is going to pick up on that vibe and they will sync up and get into flow. And this is how we initiate group flow. So when you're leading yourself to get into flow, to get into your work like a musician gets into the music, and it leads others just through that sheer enthusiasm kind of vibe, right? And I like to call flow the energy of influence. So I had been cranking out orchestra concerts for years. I took flow for granted, getting into it. And so there was this time in my life where my son was a teenager, full-on rebellion. He was also very depressed. And because he was 18 when he was a senior, he was pulling the I'm an adult card. I had no voice. I could not connect with him. It was just like the scariest— okay, here come the tears— the scariest time of parenting ever. For me was that senior year of high school. At the same time, my mom had Alzheimer's. And as you mentioned, I'm sitting on stage playing a Beethoven symphony and I am numb, right? I cannot feel anything. And yeah, there's a lot going on here, right? So I asked the conductor for a year's leave of absence. You know, playing in the orchestra is how I would get into flow and spend time Hours of uninterrupted time in flow. And, you know, those interruptions happen, and whether they're small interruptions or big ones. And, you know, when I was taking care of my mom, I thought that putting flow on the back burner was the right thing to do. You know, bottom line, I've completely lost my spark, you know, that thing that makes me tick during this time. And because of that, my violin students started leaving me for other teachers. You know, like the best violin students left first, you know, and then just kind of dragged on. I got to that point, darkest time of my life, I will admit, where I did ask the conductor for a year's leave of absence. A year, and I hardly played the violin, hardly taught that year. A year later, I thought, okay, maybe I'm just done with the violin because I wasn't feeling any of it. So I said goodbye to the orchestra because I couldn't serve, right? I could not serve and did not want to hold them back. It was inappropriate for me, I felt, to keep performing with them. And I had always loved public speaking and I had already been pursuing a public speaking career. So I was busy doing stuff. I was working on the public speaking career. And the funny thing is that, like, all my friends would say, Diane, can you not marry the violin with the public speaking? And I'm like, no, these 2 worlds will never collide, right? So anyways, years later, I'm sitting in a movie theater watching a documentary about a group of counterculture artists. And if those of you are familiar with Meow Wolf, you know what I'm talking about. But for those of you who don't know Meow Wolf, these are a group of counterculture artists that came together to create their own art. And they were questioning everything in this documentary, like, who's to say this is art? Who's to say this is not art? Who's to say this art's valuable? This art's not valuable? Who's to say that if we're going to open up our own museum, there has to be leaders and followers? Who's to say we have to have some sort of hierarchical system? They were absolutely questioning everything. And for some reason, I thought this was like so mind— You know, it just really sparked my thoughts. It was thought-provoking. And I was like, you know, couldn't sleep that night. I was thinking. And for some reason that morning I woke up and I could feel the power of the violin coming back on stage with me. I don't even know how to explain that, but I had been shut off from the violin for, you know, a few years at that point, to the point where I sold my gorgeous antique violin that had been my musical voice. Like, I literally thought I was done. So that morning, borrowed a violin. My friend Janet, if you know Janet, of course she would be the one to show up with a purple violin. And it's so fitting with all this, right? So I played a little Bach and it was like, no. Played a pop tune, yes. And like, I couldn't believe it. It took 10 minutes to figure out I wasn't done with the violin. I was done with classical music. And it was just hard to see in that storm of my life when my son was just, you know, losing his, you know, self and whatever was going on with him and then taking care of my mom. It was just hard to, like, pull out all of the pieces, understand what was going on. So a week later, I bought an electric violin. 6 weeks later, I'm doing this speaking engagement, performing my own music. and combining it with the speaking. And that's when the speaking career took off because I finally brought, you know, my whole self into it. And so, you know, the thing is, is that, you know, I was very confused. I was numb. I was confused. I was just doing the best I could during, you know, taking care of my mom. And I felt so nervous about my son. You know, the one thing that I learned from all this is that there really is always a way back to flow. And I literally watched my son follow his passion. Like, he spent the summer after he graduated at— he had a river rafting guide job. And I think there's a lot of cathartic things that go on when, you know, you're just one with nature. And, you know, it was a very physical job and very, you know, occupied his mind. I think it really started to, you know, help him to turn himself around. And the last thing we knew that he wanted to do was to become a pilot. He came home from that job, went straight to the municipal airport, bypassed college, and just went straight to getting his pilot's license. And now he's a bush pilot in Alaska, like doing this rad stuff, like flying way out to the Bering Sea and taking medical supplies to villagers and— You wouldn't believe it. Like the things that he moves, like like I could go on and on. But anyways, so I've never seen him so motivated, so happy, right? And so focused. And you know, I remember when I was a kid, my parents would say, Diane, we would just we just want you to be happy. And I would be like, Mom, Dad, you know, give me a break kind of you know attitude. But boy, as a parent, do I get it. Because, I mean, isn't that all we want is really to be happy, for our family and friends to be happy and, you know, for our colleagues and our clients to be happy? So, you know, whether or not you have some big interruptions or some small interruptions in your life, because I went through this experience myself, I do believe that there really always is an undercurrent of possibility. and a new way for people to evolve. And the last thing I want to say is that the orchestra career was very linear, right? I love violin. Let me get training. Let me go to the top schools, right? Let me do auditions, right? You did all the things, right? But when everything fell apart, okay, yes, I was focusing on the public speaking, But the way the violin came back into my life, never had I imagined that.

Never.

It— I call it the giant suck forward. I felt like something was sucking me forward and I followed the breadcrumbs, right? I followed that energy. It's like, oh, okay, well, I'm experimenting here. Oh, I'm done with classical music. Okay, let's try this electric violin. Look what I could do with this electric violin, right? And bringing it together with the speaking in a completely unique way. None of that was preplanned. It was just following this energy forward.

Such an amazing— just such an amazing story. I love it. I can feel it through the screen. I got goosebumps a couple times. It's amazing. I'm curious, like, do you think, you know, you said that underlying current of flow is there. Is there any practices or anything that somebody that might be lost in the chaos of life, is there any practices that they can do to tap into that flow, tap into that pulling forward energy?

Oh gosh, yes. That said, I do feel like we really need to backtrack for a second because a lot of people don't know literally what flow is. Because we have lots of sayings like go with the flow, which is a mindset. But being in flow is a mind state. And so, Martin Seligman is the psychologist who coined the term flow state. And he really focused on being in your signature strengths. Because when you are in the flow state, it is active. When you are going with the flow, it is passive. Right? So you actually have to be in an active situation. So that's, you know, that's another piece that you have to know to get into flow. It's not just some passive thing. So Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, he's a psychologist who did the most in-depth research on flow. And flow falls under the umbrella of positive psychology, which is all about taking a look at what's working well reverse engineering it so you can create more of that in your life, right? So, one of the things, and we'll go through Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's model. It's the universal entry point to get into flow because it'll impact everyone. And then, my thought leadership is how each person can uniquely get into flow by finding what that signature strength is for you. So, I'm babbling here. What was your question?

Oh, it's beautiful. I think you're— I mean, you're answering what flow is. And my question— yeah, you got it.

I'm still not ready for your question yet. I have to tell you what the neuroscience—

That's okay. That's okay.

Yeah, the neuroscience of flow is the other piece that people really need to know. So, um, because flow is a real thing. It feels very dreamy, right? It feels like you're going with the flow, but you're actually in action. And so there's more recent research done through neuroscience. And so in these moments, there's a cocktail of peak performance hormones that are released that create brainwaves that are conducive to the flow state. And so as a result, the neocortex amps up, which dramatically increases learning speed. The prefrontal cortex temporarily shuts down, which is interesting because it literally turns off your fight or flight response in your inner critic. Your inner critic is one of those things that interrupts us, right? And, and these are basically the, the neurobiological conditions that make creativity and outstanding performance readily available. So, you know, there's a lot of different things that happen to us in flow. How you know you're in flow is you lose sense of time in a good way, right? Maybe time goes by really fast or it goes by slowly, but in a good way. You lose a sense of self. Like, that's when that inner critic turns off. And people say that it's like so liberating. Ideas and insights come in from out of the blue, like a shower moment, right? Things come together with this sense of ease. Like, have you guys ever gotten more done in 30 minutes than you had in the last 3 days? Yeah, we see heads shaking up and down. Yes. Big yes. So that's being in flow. And then Instead of being in a negative feedback loop where you're having to use willpower or discipline to get the work done, when you're working in flow, you're in a positive feedback loop because the more you get into it, the more you get out of it. And it refuels you. Your own work refuels you. Like, my husband played in the orchestra with me and we would come home from an orchestra concert and it would take us hours to wind down because it was just so invigorating. And so, you know, refuels you and energizes you. And then the last key indicator of being in flow is that you're experiencing more meaning, joy, and fulfillment. And for those of you who are like total Adam Grant lovers and all of his work, he's an organizational psychologist who gave a TED Talk and a New York Times article on this very topic. And in that content that he shared, he talked about the mental health spectrum. And how halfway, like between depression and flourishing, there's this midway point where you're fine, but you're not fine. You're functional, but you can't get motivated. You're just kind of blah. And the word for that is languishing. And so according to Adam Grant, the antidote to go from languishing to flourishing is to get into your flow state. So that's like the nuts and bolts about, yes, this is a real physical thing that happens. And it impacts us in a holistic way, right? Not only are we doing our best work, we're having peak experiences, but it's also meaningful. And we benefit mental health-wise, which is why it's under the umbrella of positive psychology. So I like to say, you know, like flow is like one-stop shopping for so many different things. And a lot of times when I do speaking engagements, the organizers will say to me afterwards, there was something for everyone. And that's because this content is going to land for each person in the way that they need it the most.

You've said so many amazing things, and I think at this point in the conversation, people have either bought your book or they're waiting to hear some of the actions that they can take to step into flow on purpose. And so you've developed a flow strategy system that I think everybody in the audience is going to be excited to learn. And so can you give us a little preview of what that might look like? Okay.

So this is something I came up with because at another time I was giving a concert and had a big distraction. And for some reason, that interruption, I could not get back on track. And I was like, huh, I take flow for granted. I should know exactly how I get into it, which is why I say interruptions are the number one killer of flow. So when you know how uniquely you get into flow, to circle back to what we were talking about earlier, especially you, Luke, with the kids and the homeschooling going on while you're getting your work done, when you know how uniquely you get into flow, when you do have an interruption, you can get back to work so much faster. Okay. Because you've got the know-how in your back pocket. There's also deadlines, right? Deadlines can be really stressful. And so when you know how to get into that— excuse me— that energized state where you're just rocking it, you're getting more done in 30 minutes than you had the last 3 days, right?

Yes.

If you want to really, you know, meet a deadline without the wear and tear and the drama or the exhaustion, then being in flow is the great way to do it. So the 3 questions are where, what, and why. Okay. So the first question is just basically locating where are you? Where are you when you get into the flow state the most? So I'm going to pick on you, Nick. I'm sure there's a lot of different places you get into flow, but I imagine doing these podcast interviews is one of them, right?

You are right.

Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

So where you are is I see you in your office right now, right? Sitting in front of the computer. That's just— you're just locating it, right? And then what are you doing? Well, you're interviewing. You're doing the podcast, right? And so, I like to break the what question into 2 parts. What are you doing on the outside? Doing a podcast interview. But what are you doing on the inside?

Mm-hmm.

Now, before you answer that, I want to give you some examples. My dad, where he is is in the kitchen. What he's doing is baking. It's always dinner, right? But what he's doing on the inside, I guarantee you he is nurturing. He just pours that into the food. Now, a lot of people get into flow in the kitchen, right? And they could be nurturing. They could be experimenting. They could be socializing, right? A lot of people do socializing. That's the socializing time of their day in the kitchen. If you're working on an Excel spreadsheet, right? A lot of people get into flow. Every time I do a speaking engagement, I say, raise your hand if you get into flow in an Excel spreadsheet. And like these people, there's like proud raising their hand, like, absolutely. Now, what you're doing on the outside is an Excel spreadsheet. But what are you doing on the inside? You could be organizing, problem-solving, strategizing, visioning. One woman told me she does all of her collaboration on an Excel spreadsheet. And collaboration is like, you know, a meaningful thing to her. So, did that give you some ideas, Nick, of maybe what you uniquely do on the inside?

Yes, I think that there are 2 major things happening. One is that I am learning. And I've done my CliftonStrengths. I know that I'm a learner. I value continuous learning in a major way. And so, I'm fully in the present moment, listening and absorbing, but I'm also serving, which also brings me a lot of value.

Hmm.

I'm serving you by giving you a platform to share what you've spent so much time learning, and that gives you the ability to serve. So, it's this interesting thing where 2 things are happening simultaneously. I'm learning, And I'm serving and I try to keep both of those things conscious.

Wow, you're super succinct. So, what you're doing on the inside is learning and serving. Now, the last question is why. And oh my gosh, we've heard this question so many times, right? What's your why? But when I think of a why, I'm thinking of what are like the highest values that we have that are so much greater than ourselves? We're talking about peace and joy and love and well-being and self-actualization, expansion, right? Whatever it is for you. Freedom, right? So, when you get to this point where what you know, what you do on the inside, when you can define that for yourself, then we want to know why that is so meaningful. So, let's start with learning. Why is learning so meaningful to you personally?

Learning is so important for me because reading and implementing books has helped me achieve the lifestyle I have today where I genuinely enjoy the passage of time. I have amazing relationships. I love the work I do. I love the people I serve and who I work with. And I know that's accessible for other people. And so by having you on the show, by continuously learning how to serve people better while serving you at the same time, I'm able to help other people go through that process too. And that makes me feel really good.

Right. So I know you have a dual thing, but learning personally gives you a lifestyle that for you is very satisfying, right?

Yes.

And when you have that lifestyle, we're going to separate these two. Okay. So when you have that lifestyle, what is that for you? Is it Love? Is it freedom? Is it joy? Is it expansion? Like, what— I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like, what is that for you?

When I make progress in my own life through improving my health, my wealth, my happiness, my relationships, by learning and implementing information, I sleep well. I really do. I'm fulfilled because of the lifestyle that you're talking about. And so, what is that for me? It's freedom of time, freedom of money, freedom of purpose, and all of those things together. I'd say that word freedom is probably the most important one.

Freedom.

Okay.

And these things can change in different stages of our lives, right? But right now, it's freedom, right? Now, let's go to the service piece, right? Serving, man, like, what does that do? Like, if you can get, like, Way deeper, like what you are serving, serving yourself, serving others. It's like the ripple effect that you have is incredible, right? So, what— why is that so meaningful for you to be of service in that way?

Oof, that's a big question. And I don't know if I can answer that in a succinct way. It's innately fulfilling for me to hear from our community when somebody reaches out and says, hey, Nick, you recommended this book 3 months ago. I read it, it solved my problem. Thank you so much. My life is better now. And that sense of purpose, knowing that I am of service and I am effectively helping people, it's the entire thing. I mean, it's why I'm doing what I'm doing, for sure.

So, we might not even need to go any further than being of service. You're being the servant leader, right? So, in many ways, you also lead by example. So, there's a huge leadership piece that I don't know if you're owning. But anyways, so, okay, the 3 questions. Let's just do a quick review. The 3 questions were, where? Locate where you are when you get into the flow state the most. What are you doing on the outside and the inside? And why is it so meaningful? And what you do on the inside is your most compelling internal self-motivator. That's that thing that makes you personally tick. And knowing what that is means you can now shift into the flow state on purpose. And why it's so meaningful is what I call an external self-motivator. When you're reaching for something so much greater than you are, right, that pulls you, that's that giant suck forward, right? Really reaching for high, lofty values. That's your most compelling external self-motivator. And this is your flow strategy, what you do on the inside and why it's so meaningful. And I have a worksheet that I can give everyone. So we'll talk about that later. But I have this written out in a worksheet. So that, in essence, is what I call flow strategy. And what do you do with this? Well, let's say you're having an off day. Let's say you have an interruption. Let's say you want to do something outside of your comfort zone and you still want to rock. You can conjure this up, right? Let's say, Nick, you're in a, I don't know, a place that, you know, people do pitch— pitching for startups, right? And I happen to live in a town that has a huge investor conference every year. And I know I've actually coached a number of the people who do pitching. So I know, like, public speaking and pitching your business, like, that's super high pressure, right? And so if you just kind of go within and think, wait a minute, I am here to learn and to serve. And that's basically your home base. And for those of you who aren't watching the video, I've got both hands on my heart right now because when you're in your heart space, you're getting the 40,000 neurons in your heart to fire up. And that's what— that sends out that 3-foot circle around you. That's how you project. your energy and feel it within yourself.

It's an incredible answer. Uh, I think that by this point everybody will have purchased your book already. We'll make sure we include it in the show notes. Um, I've only just barely tapped into the questions that I had prepared for today, and I feel like Luke is probably the same way, but we're already half an hour in. So I'll ask, uh, one more question and then I'll kick it over to Luke. Luke maybe can have a couple more questions and then we'll wrap it up. So when you were deciding to write this book, like a 30,000-foot view, who did you think about as your target customer for this? You know, who is the right person to buy and implement this material?

Yeah, flow is a niche topic, but it is not a niche audience. Everybody is wired to get into flow. And the thing about this is it even The neurodivergent people get into flow in their own way. If you think of savants, right, people who were a genius in one aspect, but, you know, maybe couldn't talk or, you know, socialize or something like that, we're talking about flow. So it's, it's used for personal use. I do a lot of HR conference speaking. Because these are people helping people, right? So first, I want people themselves— you have to lead yourself in order to lead others. And so by leading yourself to get into flow first and then having tools to get into flow on purpose and with purpose, as well as a tool, the 3 questions— where, what, why— if you're a leader, you can now walk other people through figuring out their unique flow strategy and help them to connect what they love to what they do.

This is so good. I want to ask so many questions. I'll just stick with these last 3. Okay. The first is your— the subtitle to your book is Unlock Your Genius, Love What You Do. Correct? That's right. Right. And screw that up. Okay. Do you think that everyone has that specific something that they can find that they love doing, or do you think that they can find love in anything that they do?

Yes.

Fair enough.

Yes. When we first talked about reverse engineering getting into flow, we started with where do you get into flow state? the most. Let me give you an example. So after one of my speaking engagements, a gentleman contacted me and he says, I was in your audience. I know I get into flow. I just would like to get into flow at work. And I was like, sure, let's have a call. And I, of course, I went to his LinkedIn before we jumped on the call and I see he's got his job title, but then underneath it, it says avid skier. I was like, ah, we got this, right? This guy gets into flow on the ski slopes for sure. So, we get on the call and I say, hey, tell me what's going on. And especially with skiing. And he goes, oh man, I love skiing because like you're there, right? You have to set aside time to go skiing, right? You can't. So, first of all, you know, you got that. Then, I get on the ski lift and I've got this whole routine. I've got this like magic way of cleaning my goggles so they're like crystal clear and perfect. Get them on my head, you know, then I set up the playlist. By the time I'm at the top, I literally jump off. I am queued up. I become one with the snow. I didn't even have to say anything. All of a sudden he goes, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. Every time that I rock it at work, it's because I completely clear off my desk. I do a time block for one thing and I set up a playlist. He's like, it's the exact same thing. So, when we talk about these 3 questions, where, what, and why, his where became actually the piece that gets him into flow. He set up the environment, right? The cleanliness, the time block, and the music, right? So now that we figured that out, we took a look at where he was in one place in his life and then was able to see that he does that in another place. And then I have specifically used my flow strategy to help me when I was out of my comfort zone. I never had to go networking as a violinist, never. But as a speaker, yes. And it was like I was so out of my element. I was like, oh my gosh, how am I going to do this? I spontaneously decided, let me just listen, and if I have a story, I'll just tell it. And so I did. And, you know, the first thing that happened is I felt like myself telling a story. Second thing was, you know how when one person tells a story, then somebody else does, then somebody else does? So it sparked the conversations beyond, hi, my name is this and I do that, right? Where— and then the conversation just kind of— False, right? Anyways, so it sparked the conversation. And then, like, literally I ran out of business cards that night. And then afterwards I was like, oh my gosh, when I get into the music, my flow strategy is I'm sharing the message and I'm sharing the experience. And like, that's what I'm doing when I'm telling stories. I'm sharing the message and I'm sharing the experience. And why is it so important for me to share like that? It has everything to do with unity. When you connect with others, you unify. I had no idea that my flow strategy for playing violin could help me out in a different place.

So powerful. And I think it's just like, what's so great about your process is just like you're connecting the dots for everyone. You're just helping everyone connect the dots because yeah, we all have that place where we get in flow. I was thinking when you're talking about the Guys skiing, I'm like, oh yeah, that's hiking for me. It's like, that's, that's my— like, if I'm in a pure flow, that's probably this place wherever I hike. That's where I'm in pure flow. So that's beautiful. Now I want to ask you, before we, before we hit record, you hooked up your violin. So I would love to hear— I don't know what you had planned, if you had anything planned, but we would love to hear whatever it was that you were thinking before we started. Hello, Book Thinkers family. We are on a mission to change people's lives for the better, and we believe that the right book at the right time can change your life. And the only way we can impact more lives is with your help. If a book has changed your life for the better, I wanted to ask you a quick favor. Could you please take a few seconds and leave a review of our show? Because if you're like us, you want to change not only your life, but others' lives as well. And by you leaving a review of our show, it spreads the word about all of these life-changing books and does just that. We greatly appreciate your help. By reaching more people, you help us change more lives. Thank you so much for your time. And now back to the show.

Okay, so what I want to share with you all is a model that the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi came up with, and it's what I call the universal entry point into flow. And so here's how we're going to do this. I want you to see basically I'm going to do my best to try to get you into flow right now. And so how we're going to do it is I'm going to lay down a foundation line of music on my looper, and then I'm going to clap to the music, and then I'm going to ask you to join me. Now, if you're in a place where right now, like, you know, clapping, you know, it'll look like you're alone standing there clapping to something, and it's not a good thing in the moment, tap your finger. But the thing is, is that if you only listen to this, you will not experience it. You have to do it in order to experience it. Remember, flow is active. So, so basically, once you start clapping, you're going to be clapping until the entire song is over. Now, along the way, I'm going to give you some challenges. And anytime I've done this, whether it's on a podcast or in person, that I've experienced, pretty much everybody rises to the challenge. And once you rise to that challenge, I'm going to give you another one. And so we're going to stack some challenges on top of each other on purpose. And it's meant to be like a bit of a roller coaster ride. And then— and that's basically it. When we finish, I'm going to ask you some questions and then we'll unpack the whole experience to see to what degree you were in flow or out of flow. And so the bottom line is like right now, the The best way to get into flow and to really experience this is to literally have a neutral mind and simply observe. Observe yourself, observe what the experience is. And then, like I said, we'll chat about it afterwards. So here we go.

I'm excited.

Okay, so just listen first. One, two, one, two. Ready, go. Keep going. So I want you to simply observe. Are you clapping right with the violin, a split second before, or a split second afterwards? Keep observing and don't release your focus, because while you're doing that, I want you to visualize as if somebody was conducting the music, and they're conducting exactly where you're supposed to clap. So you're seeing it as well as hearing it with the violin, and then observe. Are you clapping right before the visual, or right after it, or right on it? Now, each of you are doing your own part, but there are thousands of people listening to this podcast, maybe not at the same time. But I do want you to imagine that by the simple fact that you're all doing this activity, that you in essence are doing it together as one. And we have all heard of the concept of oneness, and in a way, we're experiencing that right now. And for the last challenge, I'm going to play a melody that you have never heard before. I want you to end the song at the exact same time that I do. Okay, so let's unpack this. Just, I want to let you all know that there is a time delay. And so if you saw Nick clapping like way off the beat, he wasn't. It's just because of the electronics.

You know, I've never been great with my hand-eye coordination there.

No, but I mean, it does look goofy when we do this online. So, okay, so We were using a variety of skills. We were using deep listening, focus, and clapping. Those are skills. We had challenges like observing if you were clapping with the violin, that visual of clapping together. And then we had to end the song at the same time, a song you'd never heard before. So those were the challenges. And then the purpose was that concept of oneness. So according to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, just visualize a Venn diagram right now with 2 circles, and one says skill, one says challenge. It's the intersection of skill and challenge that is when flow becomes ignited. I want you to think about it like a skill without a challenge, not going to ignite anything. A challenge without a skill, not going to ignite anything. It's the 2 together. That ignites flow and brings out the best in all of us. And if you felt that purpose, that feeling of oneness, even though it was through the internet and that concept of everybody clapping at the same time, listening to this together, that was that element of purpose. And it takes things to a whole new level. So that would be the 3rd circle on that Venn diagram: skill, challenge, and purpose. So this is the perfect model that explains why we love volunteer work so much. You've got a group of people with a variety of skills coming together to meet a challenge and doing it all for a purpose. And in that environment, people say they love doing the hard work. Yes. Am I right?

Yes.

Okay. So it's simply to use this model as a lens to look through. Like, I seriously, I will delay. I procrastinate. I am not a procrastinator. I am not a procrastinator except for my email inbox. But if I challenge, you know, and I'm over-skilled, over-skilled, right, to deal with the email inbox. But if I challenge myself literally with the timeline, hey, by 10:30, you're going to get through that. I always rise to the occasion and I find purpose along the way because I'm, you know, connecting with people through you know, through communication. That's a really simple example, but I could give you other examples. But what kind of insights does this bring for you?

Well, I'll pause real quick and just a quick reflection. And Luke, keep this in. This has been probably the best performance we've ever had on the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast in terms of a guest showing up prepared with visuals, Music, actionable insights, and just an incredible ability to articulate, you know, the research that you've done and that you're leveraging with your book. So kudos to you. What does it bring up for me? I have, I have a lot to think about in terms of where I achieve the best states of flow and what I can do to replicate that in monotonous tasks, you know, how to—

Yes.

How to set deadlines and leverage Parkinson's Law to get through my email list and my email follow-ups and stuff. So I'm just really impressed with you, Diane. And yeah, it's been a pleasure today.

Thank you.

And I would say the exact same thing. So ditto. The big thing that I was— while we were doing that exercise, I just was like, I felt very at peace and I felt very, very, very present. And I felt present through this whole podcast, but like, it was, it was just beautiful. Like, it was so beautiful that I kind of had a tear go down my eye and everything. I was like, oh wow, this is pure presence. And I was thinking, man, I just want to do this every single day. Like, the morning, my morning ritual, just like include this, a little clapping. And the— it was beautiful.

Yeah, it's interesting. I was, um, I met a gentleman who used to have like a really He was the CFO for an enormous insurance agency. You know, it's a name that we all know. And he now has his own business about mental health and, you know, helping leaders to create mental health awareness in the workplace. And he's working from home and he's like, I have no idea. Like, I have completely lost my flow. And I said, so how did you have it at, you know, when you were, you know, your CFO job? And he said, every morning, 8 o'clock, I strolled the floor and I had conversations with people. Like you were saying, Nick, like your workout, right? First thing in the morning gets you that energy. And he was like, oh my gosh, that is like, that is it. And he started scheduling 8 o'clock phone calls. And somehow, you know, just that Got him going, right? So, um, anyways, yeah, we all have our own unique ways of getting to flow. I'm just providing 2 different tools today. You might make up your own way. It doesn't matter. It's whatever's right for you, and that's the most important message of all.

Diane, this has been so much fun. I have enjoyed this podcast so much. I'm pretty sure this is my favorite podcast of the year. I think I may have said that the last podcast and I was like, I don't know if we could top it, but this for me very much did.

Thank you.

So thank you so much for your time. I'll have 2 more questions. I don't know, Nick might have to go, um, but you can answer these 2 more questions. The first is where can people go to find out more about you? And of course we'll link all that stuff in the show notes.

Right. So the first thing is, is I want people to have that handout that I have that has the, uh, the worksheet, the flow strategy worksheet in it. That's tinyurl.com/flowstategift. And you'll have an outline format of all the notes of everything that we talked about today, plus some next steps regarding creating a culture of flow at the workplace. And so, or it could be in the family. And so, that's that link. And then, my book, Flow: Unlock Your Genius, Love What You Do. We've got both paperback and ebook, and that is available already for presale.

So exciting. All right. Now, my last and final question that I like to ask all of our guests, and it's this: you pass away and all the information that you put out, the courses, books, everything that you've talked about, Flow Today disappears, but you can leave the world with a single piece of advice. What would it be?

Get into your life like a musician gets into the music.

So beautiful. Diane, thank you so much for your time today. This has been absolutely amazing.

Thank you.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, Please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.