210. Walter Mehrer | God or Space?

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Walter Mehrer, author of God or Space? What Difference Does It Make? Rewiring the Human Perception of Time. Walter is an economist and entrepreneur. He graduated from the University of Miami with a special interest in the arts and philosophy. When it comes to the superficial issues of the day-by-day living, he approaches the matters as an economist and businessman. When it comes to the human relationships and coexistence, he examines these phenomena as a philosopher whose passion is in the essence, of life. This was a fascinating conversation about the profound realizations Walter had during the COVID-19 lockdowns, particularly about the nature of observation and reality. He explores the relationship between security and abstraction, emphasizing that understanding these concepts is crucial for personal growth. The discussion also touches on the challenges of questioning conventional wisdom in various fields and the importance of creating spaces for open dialogue. Walter shares his influences and philosophical underpinnings of his thoughts, encouraging you to reflect on your understanding of life, And reality. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Walter Mehrer.

Walter, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. I'm excited to chat about your book today on the show. As an interesting way to kick things off, I'd love to have you describe the realization or the question that popped up when you were watching waves, of all things. I think it's an interesting way to start.

Yes, I mean, there's a kind of little story. I wouldn't say funny little story, but there is definitely a story behind that. And it happened between COVID, right? We were— my parents were visiting me here in Panama, and the lockdown— that was around February, and then they declared lockdown. By the pandemic, um, at the end of February, beginning of March. And we didn't know because nobody knew what was this about around the globe, right? Right. So I thought, well, maybe this is a 2-week thing, a 3-week thing, you know, a month thing. I mean, I wasn't even counting time. I was just thinking, oh, what is this? But the lockdown here was so bad, so Really bad. Like, I could just go out by the number, by the last number of my ID card, one day a week to buy groceries. So that's how bad the lockdown was for 6 entire months. So my parents were visiting me at the time, and they got locked down here, and they stayed at my house, right? And then, well, and then I'm grateful for that because we were all together, right? So that was good in that sense. But then the story behind the waves, to give you all that prelude, I was at the balcony staring, you know, every day I used to go do cycling in the balcony, staring at the sun, the water. And so I was— I'm always watching the waves because they're very constant. They're very, very— they move in a very particular way here in the Pacific. And don't get me started about like, okay, if you're in the Pacific, why is the sun coming up? The explanation is too long. So, but just go with the flow, right? The sun is coming. I was watching the sparklers on top of the waves and watching all of this. Every day, and this day I was like, okay, questioning a little bit reality because I was thinking, what is all of this that's going on? And before that, I was having a lot of turmoil, like in my life, in my business, everything. In fact, COVID helped instead of damaging more. Like it helped because the world came into a halt, right? So I had time to reflect. Right? And this was part of the reflection. And as I was staring at the water, watching at the waves, I was thinking, where's the difference between the space between one wave and the other and the space between words? Like, what's the difference, right? It has this particular behavior, this particular movement. I see the wave, But there's the space in the waves, and the function of the wave is in that space, not in the wave. The wave is the wave, but the function of the wave is in the wave. So words, is the function of the word in the space between the words or in the stroke itself? Like, I was kind of having this abstract conversation with myself and just, just staring, you know, at the horizon. Lost in thought, and then my father comes in.

Boom!

Slam the door. He's like, "Dude, we have to. We have this call with the lawyers. We need to do this and that." And I'm like, "I just saw him," and I thought, "Do you think I care? I mean, I'm lost in thought right now, trying to understand this thing called life." You think that I care if the lawyers are pissed or not? They're worried about something, or they're calling up. The world can fall apart right now. Let me tell you, because if I don't understand— this is my actual words to him. I told him, if I don't understand this thing called being a human, not a man, a woman, and all this business. No, no, no. This thing called being a human, which is this living entity that one day is not going to be here any longer. And there's this thing, consciousness, that, that is— I wouldn't say lurking, but it's like, you know, it's all over the place telling you in which direction you should take the next turn. Like, I need to understand this. Because ultimately, wealth transfer is a matter of human relationships. Money is held by people, not by animals, not by the air, not by the buildings. It's owned by people, right? You want money, you need to take it out of the pocket of somebody, right? Talking about the lawyers, right? Talking about the— to my dad, right, about the business. So I need to understand this is part of my process of maturing in this life? I need to understand it. So that was when I was— so he looked at me and he kind of, because he was at the— he was in the house all of those months. So he looked at me and he, it was a little bit more profound of a conversation than that. But not to get into the details of it. He just looked at me and said, okay, I understand. So you're going through this process. Okay. He left. And for the next couple of months, I will say, I was on this reflective process over and over and over. And I realized that, but listen, quality is given by space, not by the thing. Because the function of the thing is in the space. And I'm saying, if I understand how these things work by the nature of the human. I don't need to understand anything else. I don't need anybody to tell me to wake up early, wake up, go to bed, do running, do this, do that. I don't need to understand any of this because the thing by itself gets organized by the mere fact that is observing itself, right? So it gets organized around that fact that is watching itself, how it works, why it works, you know, all of this. So, um, yeah, I, I kind of started taking more seriously writing, not the book, but my writing. So yeah, that's the story behind The Waves.

I'm, I'm happy that you shared that, and you actually gave me some more detail that you didn't share during our first conversation, and it, it helped me think about your situation a little bit differently. You know, I find, just a quick sidebar, I find oftentimes as a business owner that All of the value comes from observing the business, not working in it. So when I get to step out and work on my business instead of in my business, I'm able to improve it, right? And I think the same thing can happen with our lives and with reality when we can step out and observe from a third-party perspective and question the fabric of reality. That's where things slow down and we can start to make progress from a creative perspective and from a human perspective. So why don't you think that more people step aside and observe reality and question the very nature of things? Why are we so caught up in the mundane and the pointless and the day-to-day?

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Okay, good question. And, and, um, you brought the point that you observe your business, you analyze all of this. It has to do with that. Everything. Again, I am convinced that you don't know to— you don't need— you only need to know the rules to be able to play. Because the rules limit you in a certain way that you need them in order to decide what to choose. But that's about it, right? So there are two, two sides of the coin from what you're saying. So one is, we don't know what order is. We don't know what order is. Okay? We think we know that order is something that has a behavior, and then you can predict that behavior. And we do that in everything we do so that we can establish some sense of security. That's, that's, that's all we know.

Can you give an example? Yes.

So you have, for the human mind, for the human mind, which has a function, right? Because I know how to give you that example. 2 PM. What is 2 PM?

It's a time in the afternoon.

Right. But if I— if we don't have words, right, and I want to know what is 2 PM, how would you describe 2 PM? Whatever you want to say.

It would be a position of the sun in the sky relative to—

Perfect. You signalize the sun, right? Everything in this world works like that. Everything I want to know, you tell me. The glass, you show me the glass, this, that, facts, right? But the moment I ask you, what is tomorrow, you crash. Because tell me, what is tomorrow? Without words, where are you going to point out?

Yeah, that— I mean, great point. I'm, I'm left speechless.

Okay, so the moment I tell you tomorrow, you enter into an abstraction. Okay?

Yes.

Right? You enter it because you fragment yourself in order to like see this movement, right? Which you put to symbols and you project to me. That's a function, right? But that abstraction is not different from the function. So coming back to security, the human mind has a function. But that function only serves the mean to provide security. That's our condition. Why? Because we fucking die, right? We die. And because we die, we need to have a sense that that thing, that horrible stuff that we don't know what it is, you know, we need to know that's that, that the wall we're putting in front of it to avoid it But which is pointless, pointless because we don't know what it is anyways, right? So that wall we put every time is security. The house is security. The car is security. Everything that expands our logistical constraints because the laws of nature has us bounded, bounded to the floor, bounded to this, bounded to that. Da da da da da. So all of that is creating a behavior in which we seek necessarily. I'm not saying I'm exempt to this. I mean, I'm just raising my hand and saying, hey, teacher, I saw this. So this behavior is what breeds everything we do in life. When I say everything, everything. So that security is only broken by observation, right? So, and the fact that the reason why I bring observation is because just as we don't know what order is, right? We don't know what observation is. We confuse observation with perception, right? Which is to see. Let me tell you something very important that I wanted to say in this podcast. One of the things that I realized watching the waves and talking about space is that when you observe, what you're actually observing is yourself. You need to know that, okay? Because you're never observing your business. You're never observing anything. You're seeing your business. You're visualizing and functioning For the purpose, purpose, which is that where you put forth something, right? But you're not observing. Observing is never— I'll tell you this. You see a flower. You have never seen a flower ever. You encounter the flower, weird shape, weird colors. You don't know what the flower is. You don't know. You see the flower and you observe it. But when you say you observe it, you know, you don't observe the flower. You observe your not knowing of the flower, which is yourself. You're seeing the flower, but you are observing yourself. I don't know if you can— this is too deep for the, for the forum, or— but when you see the flower, when you— the not knowing is the observing itself. The not knowing is observing, but it's never the observing of the thing, it's you. So you're saying you observe your business, but you're really observing yourself, right? You're seeing your business, you're seeing all these images that your brain projects of possible outcomes or whatever. But what you're observing is yourself, which is the not knowing what to choose, what to do, what to talk. And then that very observing gets the machine organized and produces an outcome, which is the choosing. And if you— the more harmonious is the relationship with the, the relationship of the observer with the world, this probably the more rationalized the answer is going to be. Rationalized in the sense of— to ration is to cut proportionally, right? To divide. So the more harmonious, the more just the more balanced, the more— the better your relationship with the world, the better it's going to be. This observation's outcome, which is the direction of thought of, oh, I should sell this, I should do that. And people think that that's the result of a very good analytical process. No, it's the result of deep observation. But it's very hard for people to see because people don't know that observing Is not a process. Process is beginning and taka taka taka taka taka taka progression. That's not observation, right? Just like security is not about tomorrow, right? Security is now. Order is now, right? So coming back to your your your your question of giving me an example. We tend to think that the abstraction is one thing and the function is another thing. But the two are the exact same. When you want something and you fear not to, you know, you want something, you want to go after that which you want, and then you fear. And then people say fear stops me. Fear doesn't stop you. The wanting is the fear. They're both the same, right? And you might say, well, I mean, not really. I want to eat now and I don't fear. So wanting is not fear. It depends, because if you start starving, then you start becoming afraid. So you start wanting to eat more, and then you start fearing. So the wanting is fear. Or you might say, well, I mean, well, probably. And what happens when I don't want to do something? I don't want to be here. That's not wanting. That's the opposite of not of wanting, right? I don't want. And yes, but what you fear is not not wanting. What you fear is that the other direction, which is the opposite of not wanting, what you want is not happening, right? You don't want to be here. Yeah. What does that mean? That you want to be somewhere else, right? Well, that's fear. So the wanting— guys like Buddha talked about this, right? They say, well, desire, they call it desire. It's the same, the same concept. So we split the meaning of, like, security and order. They're not separate. They're the same. Fear and wanting, they're not separate. They're the same. Abstraction and function, they're not separate. They're the same. A function is an abstraction. To give you a very mundane example, you want to build an axe, right, to chop a tree. Right? So you might say, well, the axe, the axe is not an abstraction. And the function of the axe is not an abstraction. But I will tell you it is, because if you hand me an axe, the axe is not an abstraction. That's the axe. But the function of the axe will always be an abstraction. Why? Because the function always will happen. Okay, you grab the axe, you cut the tree. That's not a function. That's you cutting the tree. But if you think about the function, It's the will happen of the axe. And that's an abstraction, just like tomorrow. So the axe always functions tomorrow, the car always functions tomorrow, the computer always functions tomorrow. Function is always a moment ahead. And that's an abstraction.

Listen, I love, I love wrapping my head around concepts like this and questioning them. And I think that by now, anybody that's listening to the conversation knows whether or not your material and your style of delivery and the concepts that you touch on in this book are of interest to them. If, if it, if they're, if they're still listening, then they're in for it because otherwise they probably would have tuned out. Now, I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff. I feel like there's a book I read years ago. called Be Here Now by Baba Ram Dass. And he has a line about psychedelics in there where he's talking about describing the experience to other people. And he says something like, for those that have already experienced psychedelics, no explanation is necessary. And for those that haven't experienced them yet, no explanation is possible. And there's sort of this fine line, black and white. Either you've done it or you haven't. And I feel like with the act of— and, and you'll probably think about my language in the wrong context— but the act of, of thinking about these subjects, questioning reality, getting to the level that you have, is black and white. Either you, you question these things or you don't question these things yet. Like, you haven't crossed that barrier, you haven't crossed that line. So anyway, all of that is just to say that I think for those that are interested in this subject, they're still listening and they're in it and they understand what you're saying, or at least they're trying to because they're interested in it. And if they've already tuned out, it's because they haven't crossed that line yet, and it wasn't going to be possible for you to capture their attention anyway. Okay, all of that is just to say that, uh, that is a good preview for what we cover in here. I want to I gave you a question beforehand I wanted to touch on briefly, which is that you are a businessman, yet you're exercising art and poetry and philosophy and curiosity in ways that most business people don't. And recently there was a, a famous moment where an actor, Terrence Howard, went on the Joe Rogan Experience, the biggest podcast in the world, and he talked about subjects like this. He quench— He questioned conventional wisdom and people laughed him out of the room. I mean, he got made fun of all over social media, called a quack, said, go just stay in your actor lane, leave this to the professionals. And I have a feeling I know what some of your thoughts are on that subject, but why can business people and actors— why are we not allowed to question these types of things?

Okay, we come back to the security issue. Okay, right. There is a method proven hundreds of years, if not thousands, right? Let's say hundreds, centuries, right? And scientific method, you know, I'm an economist myself. If, uh, it's arguable, it's debatable, but economics, economics is a science, right? So I understand how the method, the rigorous method, and that's why at the beginning of the book I make a clear disclaimer saying the issues addressed here are my opinion based on the experience I had in life. And I want to say this for anyone who wants to have these conversations and pay attention. Okay, that statement is not based on me having fear for what authorities in certain fields will tell me. It's not based on that. But it's based on respect for them, right? Because they have excluded— it's like specialized knowledge, right? When you want to know something about a very specific area, a very particular area of expertise that you're dealing with, you have 2 options. Either you pay $1,000 for an hour of somebody who had a shitty life just to pursue this very particular knowledge. He had a shitty, very shitty life. Sorry for cursing and using bad words. But, you know, a person who said screw family, screw vacations, screw this, that, that, that, that, that and went into one particular direction to deliver the very finest of the knowledge in a very particular area. You want to chase that, or you want to pay $1,000 for an hour of their time. You say, okay, I paid $1,000. Okay, that's what you do. And you get the expertise. So in this case, and then I come back real quick to security. In this particular point, these people have dedicated. I'm not saying they have shitty lives, but I'm saying they have dedicated their lives to pursuing this particular and and by you coming out and saying, you know, you're wrong. You're not going against their status quo. you're saying you have wasted your life. That's what you're saying, right? And these people get angry. They just get angry, right? They just— they're people, right? It's like, yes, I built— I created the formula for the finest rocket. Guy in the morning gets pissed because his wife just splashed a bunch of toothpaste in the bathroom mirror. And he's bragging about his rocket formula, right? You're getting mad because your— I don't know, your kid left the car door, the, the car door open, you know? So there's a discrepancy into the geniusness and the art of living well. And these people have dedicated their lives to this particular knowledge. And then for you to come and, and say you're— I think you're wrong. then you're getting into rough waters, right? So what I'm saying is a bit different. What I'm saying is, let me have my rockets, but let me tell you that going to Mars is not gonna solve anything. Okay? Right? It's like there's one saying, right? Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar, right? And give God what belongs to God, right? So this is kind of the sort of thinking. So we come back to security. These are people. These are not just scientists, psychologists. These are persons with feelings, with emotions, with all of these miseries, envies, competitiveness, all of these human aspects that at the end of the day have to do with the fact at the very bottom, and I talk a lot about that in the book, that they're gonna die too. And what they're seeking is security. And they make a living out of this. And everybody's pursuing their own agenda, their own business. And basically what happened to this guy, Terrence, uh, Howard, was basically that he was getting into a territory where he was saying, I'm right, you're wrong. I get the feeling Should his approach be, hey, I think there's another way, want to check it out? Reaction was going to be different. So, but to answer your particular interest in the question, I think that we should change the mindset of the institutional body of knowledge to make them more open to have these conversations. I think we need to create— I was talking to my brother about this. Again, he's an artist, kind of different way of thinking. Why don't we create a space like the agora, like the Greeks before we have town centers and all this? and universities and blah, blah. Why don't we create these spaces where we can have people having these conversations, you know? But then again, the question will be, which people? Everybody, right? Well, not everybody, but right now I think there is a democratization of knowledge because look, we're having this conversation online in the internet with everybody's going to be able to see it. Whoever comes in, it says it. So, and then there is an entire establishment, an entire ecosystem of laws that keeps this machinery working. And you need to understand that. And if you go against that, you better give an alternative. Because if you don't give an alternative, what you're promoting is chaos. Right? What you're promoting is disorder, right? This thing is going to be disordered anyways, but at least there is a methodology to do things so that what we have, as imperfect as it is, is kept in place, right? So yes, on one hand, we should have— we should be having these conversations. The questioning of reality shouldn't be left to, you know, the great scientists, or, you know, I'm, I'm having anxiety, you need to go to the psychologist.

Are you sure?

Right? The mind is mine. Only me can go in there and dig in and see what's anxiety, what is all of this, right? But on the other hand, I also understand that there is again this system, this ecosystem that right now is so big, so complex, so beyond understanding that we have created through thousands of years that it's just, you can't change things from one day to another. But the guy came out, he talked just as I'm doing. And these things are what cause different currents of change, right? In fact, the last chapter of my book is called Change. So which is what we want. Everybody wants that change. That's it. That's my opinion on that.

Yeah. And just a metaphor that I think will make that point very clear for people is so many people in the audience are part of businesses, they're either Small business owners, business owners, they're part of a business as an employee or contractor. And we know how hard it is to institute change in a business, whether you have 5 employees, 10, hundreds. The more you have, the harder the change is to implement, whether it's at a cultural level or a backend system, a process, a way of thinking, who you serve in your business. Now imagine trying to change an entire society which has millions of different departments that all interact and are all organized differently. I mean, I can just— I can see how complex something like that can get and why it's not so simple to just change the way that we think. Now, we only have a couple minutes left. Time flies when you're having fun. We'll have to do a part 2. Just briefly, I'm curious, who are some of your major influences? And like I said, we've only got a couple of minutes, so I'll have to make it quick. Who are the people that you study? What types of information do you read?

Um, I don't know if I should call myself a bad or a good reader because I grab a book and the first question I ask myself is, where's the juice? Where's the juice? Where's the sweet, right? And I have read a lot of books, but not entirely. So the ones that had like The Art of War, that's definitely, that's a book that I, I got 2 of them, then I ripped them apart just by how much I was scratching and taking notes and You know, I read it the first time when I was 16.

Right? I love that.

Yeah. So, and that's one. Then, as books that I have, like, ripped apart by reading over and over, there is Freedom from the Known from Jiddu Krishnamurti. That's a Indian philosopher. There is, um, let me tell you, uh, I loved Seneca on the wholeness of life. No, the—

On the shortness of life.

The shortness, the shortness of life. That's again confusing it. I'm confusing it with the book called Wholeness and the Implicate Order by David, Dr. David Bohm. Just excellent book as well. Just chapter 1, the rest is too technical, but chapter 1 is beautiful. And then, uh, because it's about quantum physics and whatever have you. But, and then there is finally, I would say, I mean, I'm sure there are a lot, but I'm gonna say just the few that comes up to my head. There is this, which is important. It had an influence on me. It's called Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Number. By a mathematician in New York. I forgot his name. We'll discuss it later. But that one, that one's really, really nice. And then a bunch more. Yeah.

Well, I think as a first conversation, and we'll have to do a part 2 sometime soon, I think as a first conversation, you know, people who have made it this far, A, thank you for listening and paying attention, and B, Thank you. That means that this book, God or Space? What Difference Does It Make? would be a good fit for you because there are so many questions and so many perceptions and whatever the right language is that you challenge in here. And it really makes you think. And, you know, I'll share this with everybody. Walter asked me before we jumped on, like, was it an easy read or was it hard, you know, like, um, tough to get through? And I said neither. Like, No, it wasn't an easy read, but it made me stop and think, and there's value in that, its own unique type of value. It was difficult because I don't necessarily think about things or observe reality in the same way that you do. You know, I've been conditioned in a different direction for 30 years, um, but in that way, it does provide a lot of value. So it's a, it's a slow and steady challenge, you know, a mental gym set or something, a hard workout. But anyway, yeah, we'll wrap up here for, for conversation number 1. For people that want to buy a copy of the book or they'd like to learn a little bit more about you, where should they go?

Um, well, there's my There's always social media, right? Uh, I go by my name, Walter Mera, right? If you look for me on Instagram. And then the book is on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, Apple Books, basically, basically everywhere. And there's also my website, www.waltermera.com, which is— there's a little bit more about me in there. Like a small intro. And so if you want to get a sense a bit more of what I do and who I am. And yeah, that's about it.

Okay, good.

You can always reach me through email. I mean, yeah, it's in my social media as well.

Okay. Yeah, we'll make sure we put everything in the show notes. And as a way to close out and maybe a preview for everybody for the next conversation, we'll— I'm going to step up a little bit And try to participate in some conversations that are around the subjects that you actually cover in here. I think we did a nice job talking about it today. Let's really get into the thick of things for the next conversation. So signing off, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Book Thinkers, Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram at Book With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.