238. Casey Jacox | WIN the RELATIONSHIP, not the DEAL

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.

In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Casey Jacox, author of Win the Relationship, Not the Deal: 6 Common Sense Strategies to Succeed in Life and Business. Casey is a business leader, keynote speaker, executive coach, podcaster, and former top-performing sales executive with over 20 years of experience as the number one sales rep nationwide for 10 consecutive years at Kforce. Casey later became the president of client strategy and partnerships, where he led a sales transformation. Now, as the founder of Winning the Relationship, he helps companies and individuals develop deeper, more authentic relationships that drive long-term success. He's also the host of the Quarterback Dadcast, a podcast dedicated to helping fathers lead with emotional intelligence. In this episode, you'll learn why relationships, not transactions, are the key to sales success, how to develop emotional intelligence as a competitive advantage, and practical ways to slow down and ask better questions that create lasting business relationships. Casey also shares his framework for curiosity, humility, and patience in sales and leadership, as well as actionable strategies for building trust and winning in both business and life. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Casey Jacox.

Casey, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. When I was reading the introduction to your book, Win the Relationship, Not the Deal, you said something interesting, which I'd like to ask about. You said you wrote this book for your 23-year-old self, and that's pretty specific. A lot of authors say my younger self or younger version of me, but who were you at 23 and why did you write the book for that version of yourself?

I, I wrote it for my 23-year-old self because if I could go back in my sales career, I would not focus on being the guy that memorizes everything about what my company does. I'd focus on just sharpening my EQ. I'd sharpen my curiosity. I had sharpening on just understanding about people. I was always, um, unconsciously competently, uh, focused on people. And now at the ripe old age of almost 49, I'm very consciously competent, focused on the EQ of people. And I just think there's, there's so many books out there that are very science-based or they're very like factual, do this, do that, do that. And I, I, one of the big gaps I found when I wrote it was I, I feel like there was a lot of books missing on Um, just how to build relationships or the— and that's why if someone would've taught me that at 23 versus telling me what to do, but well, how do I go build relationships? Like, it's easier said than done. And so I, that was one of the goal, the problems I was trying to solve is just kind of simplify it, remove that ego for that 23-year-old and just be able to like, okay, I, I can mess up, but, but let's go do something about it.

This is going to sound funny maybe to you, but my guess is that a number of people in the audience are like, what the heck is EQ? So tell everybody what EQ means.

Yes. You know, emotional intelligence. So like IQ, like that's, you know, your SATs. I think if I took the SAT, I'd get maybe a 7.

Me too.

Um, joking, obviously. But like, but EQ, I just— my wife's like, I go wherever I go, I run into people I know. Whenever I meet people, I connect with people. I have a, a friend of Indian descent. She says, Case, if there was— if you're part of our tribe, your name would be He Who Overinvites. Uh, you know, I just, I connect with people, and it's— that's my, one of my gifts God gave me and the universe gave me. And so I'm always focused on harnessing that. And so Yeah. So emotional intelligence is just the, I guess, the mindset of just how you build relationships and be a good human.

Yeah. Well, one thing that you've already highlighted is that emotional intelligence is a skillset that can be developed. And I think a lot of people, they view emotional intelligence as fixed and it's not, it's something that can be developed. And I'll share a story in a minute about how I've been able to develop my emotional intelligence. What specifically would you teach that 23-year-old self about slowing down and becoming more aware of the other person in the room and not just the sales tactic that you're trying to implement?

Yeah. Well, yeah. So the phrase, when I hear sales tactic, I say there's, I don't believe in sales tactic. I believe in ask, I believe in being a curious storyteller. So I think the, the, the 3 superpowers in emotional intelligence that I believe in that I think are, are lacking in a lot of organizations are the power of curiosity. The power of creating humility, which starts at the top. Um, it, it starts within sales teams. It starts from the sales process. It starts within the sales pipeline. Humble enough to say, shoot, man, I don't, I don't know. Or vulnerable enough, I mean, to say, I don't know what that deal's at. Or humble enough to say, yeah, I closed that deal, but I closed that deal because I got great teammates. I got great back office and that got the invoice sent on time that made them allowed to pay me on time, allowed me to get my commission done on time. You know, I think this is like an Uncle Rico moment from Deploying Dynamite, but ever I reference my college football days. I gotta give love to Uncle Rico. Um, if you don't know who Uncle Rico is, Google him.

Throw a football over a mountain, right?

That's right.

That's right. But a quarterback in college, I never could throw the ball to myself, Nick. I couldn't block for myself. I couldn't hike the ball to myself. I couldn't then play offense and then go out and tackle people. I needed a team. And so that same mindset of just constant teamwork, constant humility, constant vulnerable to ask questions, constantly be curious. Like there's always another level of what success looks like. That's what I'm obsessed with. And those are like the things that I think are lacking, that I think when people focus on those things, and I see it in my coaching practice now, it changes freaking cultures quickly and it's really, really fun to be a part of.

Yeah. Well, when I was reading through your book, I was thinking back to my early sales days and I think we were very similar. I was a little bullish. I was a little full of myself, a little bit of a know-it-all. I Had a little bit of an ego, and I was focused at that time on sales strategies and tactics from the world's best books. And how could I tweak my language here in this email so that I'll close 1% more deals? Like, it was very numbers-focused, and it was not focused on relationships or curiosity or storytelling. And then as I matured, now it's very much rooted in curiosity. And I've realized that my unique ability is to build a relationship and inspire action. And building the relationship piece stems from curiosity. I genuinely wanna know why people wrote the books that they've written and who they're trying to serve and why they're trying to serve them. And I think that's why we're able to grow as a business. And I've become a little bit more successful as a business networker and maybe less as a salesperson.

Well, people will close themselves if you ask the right questions, you know, like, so like, here's a, here's a simple example of like an EQ that I find most people don't think of that I teach. And I don't know if I, I don't think I wrote this in the books. It was years ago, but I look for 2 words when I work with people or I coach people, or I'm gonna go do a, if I'm just meeting somebody, I'm looking for someone to say, great question. And I just shut up until they, and I'll say, oh, well tell me why. I'm going to lean in on the curiosity, make them think more, because just when I stop asking questions, I believe there's probably 3 or 4 more that I didn't ask that I'm going to try to think about. Okay, what questions can I ask better next time? Because I'm sure I left something on the table. And, you know, one of the best analogies that, that I got taught late in my career that I wish I would have learned earlier is a mindset of like, when you meet somebody, think of it as like a golf course. Like there's 18 holes on a golf course and the front 9 is all about the prospect or all about the person you're networking with. You're asking, you got 9 holes to ask questions about them. And even if they want to talk about you, you're not going to talk about you. You're going to punt. You're going to say, hey, I definitely want to talk about what we do, but can I— I'm really curious about what you said. And you keep diving in. And then on the back 9, you got the last holes, which you're coming back towards the clubhouse. Then you can talk about yourself. And I think those are things that I'm finding, at least the work people I'm getting connected to on this journey of entrepreneurship, um, that found me, that I think aligns with what I, what I wrote about.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, it's almost freeing for people to be like, oh, And, and it gets people to be their authentic self. I'm finding too, Nick, where you, you don't have to be this like uptight, structured, oh my God, I gotta, you know, it's like, no, just be yourself and lean into it. And, and because you got gifts, we all do.

So if you think about the golf course analogy, if you have a 30-minute introductory discovery sales call, would you use the first 15 minutes? So literally translate the front 9 into 15 minutes to ask questions and continue to punt, dive deeper. And then use the second 15 minutes once you've confirmed it's a good fit and you understand their pain point to then move in and solve their problem?

I don't even think I'd be that black and white. So the very first question I love asking that I got taught at age 41 that I wish I would've learned at age— I'll pick on my 23-year-old self again— is this guy asked me a question. He says when he asks, when he meets people, and hopefully people can write this down because this question gets you the answers to the test. So if I was meeting you for the— there you go. If I was asking, if I was meeting you for the first time, I'd say, We'll just role play this. I'd say, hey Nick, I know we spoke 3 days ago and I know that you agreed to meet, which I'm really grateful to see today. I have some information prepared based on our conversation, but more importantly, describe what would be an ideal outcome for you in the 30 minutes we have today.

Mm, that's good.

And so when I first learned this, that voice in your head, that self-talk, which is your ego— dude, I can't say that. I'm, I'm gonna sound like a weirdo. I'm gonna sound like a tool. I don't— and I kind of pushed back because I was uncomfortable. And the guy said, this is what elite sellers do. And I'm like, well, I thought I was an elite seller, but maybe I'm not. Uh, I was the number one guy for 10 straight years, but maybe, maybe there's another level that I'm not even close to. So, and I, and I, and I put away my ego and I said, I'm just gonna practice this. I'm gonna ask it. And what happens is I saved myself so much time and agony because if I come in to wanna talk to you and present, but let's say something's changed. And you're not ready to talk about that, or you don't want to talk about that anymore. I'm like every other transactional-based seller that's not being curious to say, hey, what do you like? Tell me what you'd like. And I use a framework called TED— tell me, explain, or describe— which is also gold. And I would say, describe what would be an ideal outcome. And whatever they'd say, then I'm like, okay, boom, that's the goal of the meeting, to make sure I hit on that for them at the end. My goal is I want to try to schedule a follow-up, some kind of next steps for me where I can still keep talking to them. And if I don't accomplish that all in 30 minutes, That's okay. That's why chapter 6 is about patience. Relationships take time, and if I try to force it, they're going to feel it. And I want them to be begging me to work with them, not me begging them to work with me.

Yeah, you— I wanted to touch on patience in a little bit. I love how you said building trust, uh, requires a huge dose of patience, which we'll get to, because I've always struggled with patience. But that question, describe what would be an ideal outcome, that's the first thing You say when you meet somebody.

Bingo.

Yeah, that's great.

Or I'll say, or I'll say, tell me what's changed since we last met.

Mm-hmm. And that's for a follow-up meeting.

Follow-up.

Okay.

And I'll say specific things that I remembered in the, in the first meeting because I took notes and put it in my CRM. Yes, salespeople, I love a CRM. You should too. Uh, it's not because your sales manager told you to do it, it's because it's going to make you look smarter. Um, but yeah, then, then it makes the follow-up so much easier versus, hey, I'm just calling to check in. which is code for wasting your time.

Now, Casey, when I was interviewed on your podcast, I told you the story about meeting Bob Berg and how there were 2 or 3 years between separate meetings, but he picked up the conversation as if it was yesterday. And it's because he took such great notes and put them in his CRM. So I always find that fascinating. I think that follow-up, taking good notes, definitely underrated.

What I loved about that story you shared is, is how Early you had to get up and make that trek.

Yeah, I totally miscalculated, misunderstood how long Florida is as a state. Speaking of misconceptions or underrated aspects of the sales process, what are some of the most obvious mistakes that the average salesperson listening or watching today's conversation is making?

Lack of discovery. Um, going way too fast. Um, I think again, one of the things that age 41 was a great year of growth for me. Um, now I, this is what I, I teach now reps and sales leaders is send a meeting recap. They're like, why? I go, tell me how it'd feel if your customer felt you listened to them.

Mm-hmm.

Would that feel good? Yeah, it'd feel great. Then why don't we go send them a meeting recap and confirm what you show them, what you heard. Show them that you listened to them, that you've identified, you've articulated their problems, and then that we both are aligned on next steps. Because when you do that, you're, you're winning either way. You're either winning your time or you're winning revenue. Both are great outcomes for you as a seller. Where people mess up is they don't want to have to face that truth, like, because their pipeline might be kind of weak and their manager's putting pressure on them. So they want to just feel good about it and like, oh yeah, my pipeline's good. It's going to close in 2 weeks. Or this deal's gonna close in a month. Or well, tell me why. Gut feel. Just really gut feel. Like well, I can't measure gut feel. I think I see other people lacking a sales process. So I teach something called medic. I got top medic. Medic is I think a really simple framework of just gives you kind of like a I call it like the checklist to land the plane. I want my pilots if they're flying my airplanes to. Follow a checklist. That's why pilots use a checklist. They don't let pilots, ah, I think we're at about 1,000 feet out. We'll, we'll, we'll be all right. I'm like, I don't want that pilot. So a couple of that'll be, that's just a couple of things that come to mind that I'm seeing all over the place right now.

Yeah. Well, I think the slowing down, have patience, do really good follow-up, like set proper expectations internally with your pipeline, but externally with your customers about like a realistic timeline for the deal. And I remember in my early sales days doing the same thing that you just highlighted. I was setting the wrong expectations internally with my boss about how realistic some of these deals were, because you wanna keep things fun and exciting and you wanna wish and hope that deals are going to close, but you haven't put the time in to build those relationships. And before I started Book Thinkers and I went full-time with it, I, I was starting to become known in the company I worked for. For closing deals that I had started 3, 4, 5 years earlier that were now coming to fruition because I stayed on top of them. And I was— I forced myself to become a little bit more patient. And I think that when you're in it for the relationship and not the transaction, you could start to win deals a few years later.

Well, I think I couldn't agree more. And I think one thing I forgot to touch on that I do want to touch on, and people that are watching this, you can see there's a word behind me that says believe. I don't think enough salespeople slow down to think, do you believe what you do matters? And I had a great mentor in my life named John Kaplan, who's a, I still think the world of, and he's a mentor from afar, even though I don't, I don't talk to him often anymore. But he, he asked that question to us and it just hit home. And so now I steal it and, but I give him credit. And like, that's such a great question. 'Cause if a seller, if you believe what you do matters, if you believe the products you have or the service you have can solve a problem, help somebody, Create a better experience, then why wouldn't you call them? Why wouldn't you go try to network? Why wouldn't you go try to meet a new friend? If you don't, to me, you're being selfish. You're, you're actually hurting the world to try to make it a better, a better spot. So I, I think again, and belief in yourself, another thing I can touch on this too, usually then falls in line with lack of practice. Sales teams love to practice on their clients and wing it. And then salespeople love telling themselves a story of, well, I, I just don't like practice because I don't sound like that in front of the customer. I'm like, you want me to record you and listen to you? Because you do. You're right. But it's like if we keep telling ourselves these stories that don't exist because we want to be the victim or the hero in the story, we get to pick which character we're going to play. It's like it's just noise that we don't— it's a waste. So I nerd out on this stuff so I can keep talking about stuff for years.

How, how do you work with a sales team that's selling something that they don't believe in? I mean, there are plenty of products and services out there that at the end of the day, while they may be convenient or quick or cheap, they're not really transforming lives. Sometimes they're hurting them. Like, I'm wondering if you're just selective of which types of companies or industries you work for, or if there's a way for people to Dive a little bit deeper into what they're selling?

I think the latter, Nick. I, I think if, if they don't believe, I'm gonna ask why. To me, that might be a leadership challenge or a learning issue in the company or a lack of curiosity. Um, you know, I'll pick, I'll pick on the industry. I, I was in the staffing industry for 20 years and I moved in more of a consulting, but when I first got into staffing, it, it, the perception was high transaction, low value. Uh, everybody does it. No, you know, like every negative stereotype was there. And so like, I didn't really believe what I do matters. But if I, instead of saying, oh yeah, we give like a, you know, a forklift driver, but I didn't, I was more technology. Let's just say, let's say it's a forklift driver in a random warehouse. If there's 20 forklift drivers, okay. But what happens if that one forklift driver had to get this huge pallet of cancer drugs on a truck, then that truck had to get delivered in time. to that airplane and that airplane had to get delivered, land in that city, and that, and then that someone had to offload that to get to the hospital to help someone save someone's life. If you, you can think of a story to tell more than what you're doing, you create value and you create real belief and you create, oh, I am doing something that's pretty cool. I, yeah, I actually, yeah, I'm helping a forklift driver find, but if that forklift driver, he or she doesn't do his job, that's a big impact. And so again, I think it goes back to lack of curiosity. If you aren't curious to finding out, okay, well why is this important? If this service never got filled, what would happen? But if I, if it did get, if it did get fixed, how could it benefit somebody? How could it benefit the world?

Hmm.

Yeah. I think it takes maybe a special mindset or a way to look at things, but, uh, maybe a lens of optimism. But I'd rather be a curious optimist than a negative realist, cuz it's a much better way to live life.

Amen to that. And why not tell yourself a story that's positive and, and serves your future, even if it's not true? But if it could be true, why not choose to believe that situation? Back when I used to sell transportation management software, there was a cultural issue when the company went through an acquisition. I think some of the behind-the-scenes folks, like the engineers and the programmers, had a hard time understanding that what they did really did matter, and it was being used by thousands of companies, tens of thousands of drivers and dispatchers who were making more money and going home earlier to see their families. And it took a special type of leadership to come in and expose that. It's not— that's not average these days, I think, for a lot of companies like that.

No, you're right. And I think— but I think it's allowed.

It's—

if it's, um, you are what you allow inside a company. I mean, I use that in my parenting advice when my kids were young. But if you allow that type of mindset to exist inside your company, that's on leaders. And then maybe ask yourself why. Check your ego, Mr. and Mrs. Leader. Find out why. Maybe, maybe create practice. Maybe create stories they can share that like help change their mindset. Because when people are curious, they can— they have clarity where they're going. They're humble enough to know there's bigger people involved, and they're vulnerable enough to ask questions. Like, those are what separates a lot of the cultures I see, and regardless of the industry.

One thing we've been trying to do at Book Thinkers, and then I'll kick it back to another subject from your book, is each time we get either a customer testimonial, so an author who has used one of our services and they're happy and they have a fun story to share, I, we share that internally in our Slack channels. But also if a reader DMs us and says, hey, this book you recommended 4 months ago, I read it, I implemented it, it solved my problem, it changed my life. We try to share that internally as well. Because not everybody on the team is customer-facing, and it's important for them to understand their role in making that happen. Not just salespeople, but it's especially important for salespeople.

So when you said that, you triggered a memory. The very first year when I won number one at a company called Hall Kinion, this is back in 2003, when I had to give a speech on stage in Cabo, Mexico. I was super nervous, but I was so excited. Because all I wanted to do— this is the quarterback in me— was thank my linemen, get all the linemen's names in the paper. And I remember, you know, I don't mean to negatively talk about the people I was— the leadership team when I was speaking, but like, to me it was like, I don't know if they thanked them enough behind the scenes, but I thanked back office people, tech support people, assistants, every little— I mean, everybody I could think of. It was about them. And I— that's what fills my tank, is when you can thank your teammates, because then you go back to the next game or the next player the next day, they're going to work their ass off for you, right? And versus me as a quarterback saying, God, you guys suck, you can't block, or man, you don't do your job. Well, okay, I'm pointing the finger, but I should be pointing at myself first. So I love to hear that you guys kind of follow a similar mindset of like just trying to thank everybody, because everybody does play a purpose in making a successful outcome.

Yeah, it's always fun to read those stories too, of an actual NFL quarterback winning a Super Bowl and then going out and buying all of their linemen something fun. And I've read a lot of cool examples of that. So kicking it back to your book a little bit, talk to us about what's often perceived as a cliché, and sometimes I think as a result bypassed, but really important once you dive in, and that's the Golden Rule.

Yeah, Golden Rule is about, so again, I hate to keep I apologize for people who are not sports people, but that's this analogy. It's easy. So as a quarterback, if I enter the huddle, which is when we— 10 other players will call the play together. If I bring energy, if I bring excitement, if I bring belief, if I bring a good voice tone, we're going to be successful. We increase the chance of being successful. Same thing in life, in business. If I treat my teammates the way I should want to be treated, I'm creating better outcomes. If I'm having a bad day and I bring my bad energy into the office, well, weird. Now I'm eroding my culture. If I am in that Starbucks line and someone buys my coffee in front of me, am I going to be like, oh sweet, and leave? Or am I going to say, hmm, that was really nice of that person. I'm going to buy the person behind me. Like, am I going to go out of my way? And I call this having a boomerang mindset. You're throwing positive boomerangs, but you don't keep score. You're not expecting anything in return. You're just doing it for the right, being a good person in the world. And I don't, again, we were kids, recess, kindergarten, whatever. Our parents and teachers taught us to be nice to our neighbor, treat people well. Maybe you learned it in church, yet people don't do it. People have road rage. People love blaming others in corporate America. People love making excuses. And I just think, but if we all just kind of slowed down and said, hey, let's, we're all humans, we're all moms or dads, maybe Like, my dog died yesterday. Maybe I'm having a bad day because my dog died, and maybe, maybe people should give me some grace or the benefit of the doubt, or ask, hey, Case, are you okay? Like, what's going on, man? Like, if you see a teammate that's not doing well, get curious. Hey, Nick, you don't, you don't seem yourself, man. I want to check on you. No, I'm good. Nick, are you sure? Like, are you, are you having that type of, like, genuine interest about people? Which again goes back to slowing down. But I think when we can slow down, Bring energy of positivity, treat people the way we should want to be treated. Again, it might sound simple, yet many executives don't do it. Many sales cultures don't adopt this, but I think it just dramatically changes a lot.

Very understated, but very true. You know, and I think, I think understated as it relates to like, yeah, I think people take that for granted, but if they were to apply it to every aspect of their life or their sales career, that would be That would, that would help them out a lot. In the book, in that section, you have the reader close the book for a minute and think about maybe the last time that somebody went outta their way and did a random act of kindness for you. So I'm gonna put you on the spot here for a minute. When is the last time somebody gave you a random act of kindness and what was it? Anything come to mind?

Maybe me.

Yeah.

Um, actually happened today. Shout out to Betsy Robinson and shout out to Sue Logan. 2 people. Betsy's a customer of mine, CEO of a company. Shout out Tier 4. I connected her with Sue at a conference in the fall, and they were— my mindset was, they're 2 female leaders, 2 badass female leaders in the same industry. They need to meet. And I didn't ask for— I just said, you guys need to meet. You guys are friends of mine. You know me. We don't really kind of— I don't— I work with one of them, not the other one. But I said, you guys should meet. Well, last night, um, they sent me a text from New York, a picture of them together. Uh, thanks for connecting us. We're having a great time. Oh, and yes, we said nice things about you. But I mean, fill my— did I get paid money? No. But did I get paid in karma and my heart's full and I feel like I made the world a better place? Yes. 100%.

Yeah. That's amazing. Oh, good for you.

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Up next, I had— I thought this was interesting when you're talking about being humble and talking about leadership influences. It seems like Abraham Lincoln is a mentor of yours at a distance, obviously. So what do you admire about Abraham Lincoln?

I don't know if I'm like I say a mentor. I think I mean I like I like think things about Abe. I think some of his leadership style was was about humility. He he he he He leaned in on it a lot. I think if there's one person that I'd really like to highlight in the book around humility would be Orison Swett Marden. If people don't know him, research him. He is— that's, that's who I'd love to highlight. No offense, Abe, from heaven where you're out there, brother. But I think Orison Swett Marden was all about the Golden Rule. He was all about humility. He was all about treating people well. He was all about like facing adversity. Like, I like to speak about him on stage. And so, Um, that, that's a guy that I, I think has, you know, he, he started Success Magazine, which has been around for hundreds of years. Um, he wrote a book called Pushing to the Front, which was like one of the most read books of his time by presidents. And he talks about humility, he talks about curiosity, he talks about treating people the right way. And, and what cracks me up about these stories, Nick, is that this stuff's been around for years, yet we still Can't figure it out. Voltaire, French philosopher, back in the, I don't know, 1500s, he said— I think he was a sexist on accident, so I'm going to make sure it's not— he said, a man or woman is not judged by his or her, uh, uh, answers, but by his or her questions. So they're teaching curiosity way back then. Walt Disney talked about curiosity. He said it keeps things opening up new doors. We still don't figure it out. We try to be like slamming things and selling, selling, selling, selling, selling, but That's not what selling is about. That's not what relationship building is about. It's about being curious and asking questions and learning about others. And, um, I, I— this might sound like common sense to a lot of people, which is why I wrote that on the very part of the top. I mean, the very front cover says 6 Common Sense Principles to Succeed in Business and Life. I'm flawed at these things too, Nick. These are lifelong things I'm working on that I'm going to continue to work on. And I see a lot of people struggled with these. And so, no disrespect to Abe, but I want to give a little love to Orson Swett Marden because that's a name that people don't have— usually don't know who he is.

Yeah, very true. Well, my next question is this: you wrote the book for your 23-year-old self. Do you think Casey at 23 would have been receptive to this if he was handed a copy?

100%. Because I— yeah, because I think I was coachable. I mean, through sports. And I think a lot of salespeople, I think that's one common theme I find from sales leaders is they like to hire people who come from a sports background because they tend to get coached hard, or maybe military or even theater or service restaurant industries. And I think the reason why I would have been receptive is because at least the feedback I've gotten from me is like when I tell people these are things I wish I was focusing on when I was right when I first started. And so if someone who has had success in sales told me that, I'm like, ooh, but I want to do what he did. I want to— I don't want to make the same mistakes. I'd rather learn from someone who's already been down that path. But we can save time and have more success. Yeah, I'm all ears. Which is why even this stage of life now, if I can learn from others and not waste time, I'm in.

Yeah, I always find it funny when people say that failure is the best teacher, like personal failure. And I'm like, no, no, no, other people's failures. That's the best teacher. Because you get the lesson without the pain, right?

Basically. Yeah. It's kind of like having— you don't want to have a boat, you want friends with a boat, go on their boat and they'll let you.

Yeah. It's a lot less expensive and a lot less stressful, right?

Right. Yeah.

That's funny. You mentioned, um, some other names in the book, people like Brian Tracy and, and Stephen R. Covey who wrote The 7 Habits. Um, so it does sound like you have been a lifelong learner, and I know we talked about that a little bit on your show. Um, you already mentioned one mentor. Who are some of the other People that you've learned from? Who, what are some of the other principles that you've been able to take from books and speaking programs and watch them on stages and then actually translate that into your reality?

I mean, I, I'm gonna give shout out to like my mom way back in the, in the, in the day as a, a 10-year-old. I've told the story as of late, as you know, I think great salespeople are honest and ethical and which is why I wrote a chapter about setting expectations. It's easy to set— it sounds easy to talk about setting expectations, but when it's negative and you got to eat crow, you got to face the pain, it's hard. It's really hard to do. And so when I was 10 or 11 years old, I was 11 years old, I was playing overhand fastpitch baseball for the first time. I played like coach pitch before, but I got picked up on this team. The coach was like, oh, this guy's a good player, whatever. I'm like 11. I mean, I don't know, because it was back then and my Our first game was against a guy. The pitcher seemed like he was like 8 feet tall. He was throwing 1,000 miles an hour. And this thing was— he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. It was going everywhere. And I was scared for my life, Nick. And I'm like, I went up the first time, like, just if I get hit, I'm dead. I'm gonna die. This is not gonna be fun. Somehow I get walked. I'm like, I made it. I'm like, I am not going up there to face that guy again. Not a chance. I said, I'm taking a stomachache. So I fake a stomachache, get out of it. Complete coward move. And I go in the car right home. My mom's like, "Are you feeling better?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "Well, you told us she had a stomachache. Told the coach had a stomachache." He was like, "Oh, Mom, I made that up because I was too scared to face that guy. He was really, really tall and scary." You did what? And I felt like, "Oh." She said, "Case, we'll talk about that when we get home." So I was like, "Oh shoot, what does that mean?" Well, I remember I get home and my mom and dad talked and. They pulled me aside together and they said, hey, uh, here's the phone. You're going to call your coach and tell them what you did. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you're going to be honest and tell them what you did right now here. So I had to— as an 11-year-old, I learned accountability and being honest. And so I had to call the coach, and the coach is like, man, Case, I'm really disappointed, but I'm really proud that you had the courage to call me. Um, I'm going to have you tell the team on Tuesday night at practice. Dude, I'm 49, almost 49 years old. I still remember the pain of that.

Hmm.

And, uh, I, I remember telling the team I was scared, I was freaking out, and, and they were like, we understand, we were all scared too. Um, thanks for being honest, we forgive you. And all that anxiety, I remember, just was so built up. But once I got out of it, communicated, I was so much better. And, um, you know, I think of like stories like that. I think of like my high school football coaches who taught me about visualization and goal setting. The big things that salespeople need to be good at: writing things down. Don't keep them in my head. You know, I teach a— I teach an action-based words to use, and I remove— help sales teams and sales leaders remove anxiety-based language. An example of what I mean by that is the words like need to or should do or I have to do this or I want to do that. I mean, they provide no plan. And I instead, I teach with passion and conviction the 2 words of I will. And I make people write them down so they can see themselves accomplishing something. I love Malcolm Gladwell. I love his work. Patrick Lencioni, I love his work. You know, Hungry, Humble, Smart: The Ideal Team Player, to the book Getting Naked around humility and vulnerability. That's where it was like really became blaring in my face. Many great mentors along the way, corporate world. You know, a guy named Jeffrey Neal was an executive for years. I got college football coaches, guys like Bo Baldwin and, um, Kai Mitchell, a leader. Um, but I think those are just— I mean, Carnegie, I got to give love to him. Um, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And then obviously you mentioned Cubby. But those are, I think, just a few people that come to mind. But mainly I want to give love to my parents. And then I'll say, I'll say last one, my wife. Uh, my wife keeps me so humble and, uh, Again, one quick story that might find it amusing. So when I, I spoke, I got invited to the LinkedIn Executive Conference in 2016 when I was an executive at a company called K-Force. And, uh, I was, had, I was lucky enough to be in the room with a guy named Jeff Weiner, which is the CEO of LinkedIn at the time. And we were in a horseshoe room and I could tell everybody was so scared. I'm like, this dude, just a dude. I'm gonna, I'm not, I wasn't being disrespectful, but I'm like, I wanna ask him a question. So I asked him a question based on something that our experience as a customer that Microsoft and LinkedIn were working on. And I asked it and his VP goes, huh, it's a good question. And then Jeff's like, yeah, it is. Do you get— do we get that down? It was like a way to like create a, a service out of their product they weren't thinking of, but we are the customer. Sometimes it's easy to do that.

Mm-hmm.

And then I asked another question at the end and he's like, God, it's funny when the, the things you can learn from your customers is, is interesting if you ask the right question. And so then I'm getting up to leave because my wife was having surgery and I had to fly home from Nashville to Seattle. And right before I opened the door to pull out, he goes, Casey. I go, yeah. He goes, hey, really thanks for your participation today, man. It was great meeting you. And I was like, oh my God, the CEO just LinkedIn just told me that. I'm like freaking out in the hallway. This is awesome. I call my wife. I'm like, you're never going to guess this. This has just happened. This guy, Jeff Weiner, CEO, he just gave me a shout out, blah, blah. She's like, who? Casey, it's not like he's Bradley Cooper. Hey, make sure you're on that flight. We'll see you in a couple hours. Boom, right back to Humbleville. And you know, and even the run I had in corporate, I could have easily let being the number one seller for 10 straight years at a publicly traded company get to my head. My wife and my teammates, they wouldn't let me do it. And I think that starts with my parents, my college football coaches, and maybe how I'm wired. But like, I think having people around me that, that can check me and I'm, I want them to check me, I think is just a great way to, I want to show gratitude to them. So sorry for the long-winded answer, but You got it out of me.

No, listen, it's a great answer. There was a ton of value in there. There are a couple of things that I'd like to unpack. I'll start with the last story. And it's so funny because I just had a very similar experience. We, as in Book Thinkers, just did a paid promotion with Reid Hoffman, founder of LinkedIn. And I thought that was the coolest thing on the planet. He sent me a custom version of his new book. It was such a cool experience. We did a collab post with his pages on different platforms. And nobody in my family cared because he's Reid Hoffman, and who cares? They're not LinkedIn users. Like, it didn't matter at all. I'm like, he's the founder of one of the largest social media platforms on the planet. Nobody cares. So again, yeah, I think it's great to have people around you to remind you that, yeah, who— some of these famous people in our spheres are not objectively famous. It's a big moment for us, but at the same time, everybody is out there living their own life, focused on their own problems, and— You know, it's not about us at the end of the day, right?

100%. Maybe I, I'll, I, I'll have a self-deprecating another story that I think may hopefully humble our audience here. That, um, so when I left corporate and I wrote the book, started a podcast for dads, which you were amazing guest on, thank you again, uh, I was so excited about it. I was so excited to tell people about it because it was my new— it was like I'm trying to redefine who I am. Like, and so, and then all of a sudden I would text my buddies the episodes like, oh dude, you listen to this one yet? Oh, did you listen to that one? They're like, dude, no, we didn't, but we will when we get to them. Like, oh. And I remember then I was— when I got into coaching, which I didn't mean to, but it found me. My wife's like, hey, can I give you some feedback? It's like, we don't want to be coached. We want Casey the dad back. And dude, you want to talk about a punch in the face? Like, I was like, oh man, I don't want to be that guy. Like, I just want to be— if they, if they want to know about what I'm doing, they're going to ask. Just like in selling, if they really want to know about the products we sell, they're going to ask if we ask the right questions. And so, um, again, I'm very grateful for those moments of humility to keep me humble because my college football coach, one of the best things he ever told me, he goes, Casey, if you ever have to tell me how good you are, you're not that good. But when you're great, I'll tell you.

Hmm.

And I just— that always stuck with me about just like It's, it's not like being appreciative of where you are, but like, let it be someone else's idea versus you have to tell 'em that you're like, yeah, I'm the best pilot in town. I told you about it. Like no one cares. Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's a great lesson. And I, going back to the first story that you told, uh, giving some credit to your mom for asking you to call the coach and admit about the stomachache. How have, uh, how have you seen that translate into your own relationship with your kids?

Oh, I think really good. Well, one story that comes to mind immediately was when my son was 10 playing golf. And I told my kids that story when they were young, and you didn't know if they'd hear it or listen to it, 2 different skills there. And my son was playing in a golf tournament, and he was like a higher-level golfer, and he played the wrong ball on the first hole and didn't realize it. He gets up on the green, he goes to putt. He's like, he looks down, he's looking around, he's like, huh, shoot. And I see him mark it and he walks up to the official and he goes, and I could see what he's— I'm like, oh shoot, he hit the wrong ball. And like, which didn't make— I'm like, how'd he hit the wrong ball? It was like, because his first shot was right there. I'm like trying to think back, like, how did it go? And now in my mind, the 2 angels and the devil popped up my shoulder. Do the right thing, dude. Just go do the right thing. I'm like, please. And I'm like, please do the right thing. Please do the right thing. As hard and painful it was to watch, he went, he gave himself a 2-stroke penalty. He had to walk all the way back to the middle of the fairway while those 3 other players, 11-year-olds, walked off the green. He had to play the hole by himself.

Hmm.

And finish it. And he ended up doing like middle of the pack that term. But I, afterwards, I just remember telling him, I'm like, dude, the fact that you just did that tells me you're gonna be successful in life cuz you have character. And whether it's teacher, a fireman, they— or a seller, whatever it is, that your, your, your word matters to people. And in sales, that matters to people. And so, you know, whether it's goal setting with my daughter, she's a high school basketball player, she wants to keep playing. I'm, you know, encouraging her to— you tell me you want to do these things. Dad has no eligibility left, but if you do, I'll help. I'll help you get there, but you have to do the work. And so, like, it's so rewarding when I hear her follow through on the things she said she was going to do. Back to expectations for herself, for me. Again, and I always— I'm asking her always, hey, tell me how things change. Have your goals changed? You still want to do these things? Great. I just— I want to make sure this is not my journey because, again, honey, I have no eligibility left, but you do. And I want to make sure that when you're 25 to 30, you don't— you don't say to me, Dad, I wish you would have pushed me harder. I wish I wish I would worked harder. Don't be that person in life. You you will have more. It's not worth it. I've seen a lot of people in my journey have that have that mindset, and it is it's a it's a slippery slope. It'll take you down some bad paths versus just be in the moment. You'll never regret working out. You'll never regret going to read a book. You'll never regret working on yourself. So and so I think my kids have embraced that, which has been a really really cool thing. Which shout out again shout out to my wife too for. All the work she's done.

Yeah, wise words. I'll be implementing, uh, some of what I've learned here today in my sales process, but also in, in my job as a parent. And there are a ton of great parallels between sales success and parenting success, which I don't think we have time to dive into today because I wanna ask about what sales leaders can learn from dogs. Unfortunately, you had a dog pass away yesterday, which you highlighted during the conversation today, and You shared with me that you are going to share something with your community about how sales success and, and what we can learn from dogs. And I'd love to hear a little preview of that today.

Yeah. Well, so last, so one of the things I've challenged my clients who I coach is, and the people that I consult with is to get outta your comfort zone. And so sometimes recording a video and putting it on LinkedIn can be uncomfortable. And so if I'm asking my client to do it, I say, I'm gonna do it with you. So I think I got like 4 or 5 Fridays in a row. And so last Friday when I was actually— we were out of town, I did one and I talked about Stella and I talked about, you know, how dogs can bug you when they're working from home and, you know, that Stella has cancer and I'm having some grace for her. And so, and then I just asked for anybody to have some funny stories. And so unfortunately, one week later, Stella, we had to put her down last night, and which is super sad, and she passed away and it made me Think. I'm like, you know what? A sales leader can learn a lot from a dog. A dog is amazing listeners. A dog's body language is comforting. How a dog's eyes, they look at you is very warming. A dog always shows up happy to see you, which creates a great culture, great positive moment. A dog's gonna work his ass off for you. A dog's gonna, you wanna play fetch? Most likely they're gonna go play fetch. It's like finding new, finding new deals. But it's like, but we as, we as leaders, sometimes we get judgmental, we lack curiosity, uh, we don't focus on body language, um, we, we don't think about how we make people feel. And by doing those negative things, it creates a lot of, um, negative bad habits to form. And then when those things happen, there's this 4-letter word that loves to hide inside of a company called fear. And fear will erode a culture. Fear creates complacency. And so I'm going to learn from Stella and the way that she went out with grace and, you know, confidence. And she's up in heaven now with her, her mom Jenny, who passed away a couple years ago. And I know that though they're running around chasing bunnies or doing whatever they're doing, but, um, I think when we as sales leaders can almost pretend, pretend you're a golden retriever and, and think of the fun that golden retrievers bring to a family. And, uh, it might be corny, but like, he brought a smile to my face. I'm like, put myself out there on LinkedIn and do a video about it. So maybe I'll tag it, you know, to hold myself accountable that it got done.

Yeah, please do. And, and I'll share some, some fun reflections and stories about our family dog. His name is Pickles. He's a chocolate Labrador. And I mean, yeah, Labs and Golden Retrievers and Golden Retriever mixes, like, what, what great salespeople. They're always fun. They're down for anything. My wife and I, we always joke with the dog. Like if we say, hey, we're going, he doesn't know where we're going, but he's always equally excited to go with us. He's curious. He wants to be involved. He wants to participate. He wants to provide value. And his value is that personal time. And it's, uh, it's so much fun to have a dog. I think every salesperson should have a dog.

100%. I mean, I, I hardly— my young one now, my only dog left. When I have tough days, I'm like, Harley, man, I could use a pickup, girl. And I swear she looks at me and then like does something to make me laugh. I'm like, okay, that just worked. Or just like today, we, we like to take a walk midday, me and my wife, cuz we work from home. And just saying the word walk, you wanna go for a walk? She gets so excited and freaks out. Like, imagine like, hey, you wanna go meet a new customer? You wanna go, you wanna go meet, work on our sales pipeline? Yeah, I do. Like, why can't we get excited like dogs do?

Yeah, I will, uh, from time to time I'll share some videos that my wife shares with me. They're always dog videos. They always bring a tear to your eye. You know, there, there's so many great content creators out there that pull at the heartstrings these days.

My wife showed me one today. I don't know, I don't have the guy's name, but he has like 4.6 million followers of a golden retriever video, and they're hilarious and funny and so true and solely, totally relatable. But shout out to the people that take the time to create that content that we consume.

Yeah, yeah, very true. Well, listen, thank you for creating this content that I consumed, and, uh, thank you for the conversation today. If I'll, I'll hit you with a couple of rapid-fire questions, just a couple, and then we'll wrap it up. If your book, Win the Relationship, Not the Deal, was deleted Gone, wiped, disappeared, but you could leave the world with just one message from it. What would that be?

Be curious.

It's almost like you could have a, a retitle, Just Be Curious, because this book really is about curiosity.

Yeah, I'd say be curious or stay curious, which is why I sign my email Stay Curious. Um, I just did that like 2, 3 years ago and I just, now it's stuck. So I, I would say just be curious.

Yeah, that's fun. Does that ever spark conversations with prospects or in the sales teams that you work with?

Yeah, even like I, I teach curiosity, a framework I mentioned at the beginning of the show called TED, which I got taught— tell me, explain, describe. Even when I teach it, and then when I work with somebody that I'm coaching, I'll say, oh, tell me more about that. They don't say, hey, wait, you just asked me a TED question. They tell me more about it because how my, my tone and genuine authenticity and interest And curiosity in my voice came across. They don't know that. Like, wait a minute, they, they just do it because it works. It freaking works, everybody. It just got—

Do you do it while podcasting?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah. That's—

it works for you.

Having a, yeah, having a podcast actually helps me be more curious and helps me become a better listener.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I love that. Uh, for people that wanna learn more about you, where should they go? What should they do?

Uh, LinkedIn's a great spot. I'm very active on LinkedIn. Uh, my website is just my first name, last name, so caseyjacocks.com. Um, if they want to get the book, it is on Amazon. Um, it's on Kindle, paperback, and I— it's on Audible. I narrated it myself, which was a very fun experience to go through. And, um, but I love connecting with people. I love learning about people. Um, I, I actually— here's your homework. If you do connect with me on LinkedIn, Um, let me know you, you heard about me through the Book Thinkers podcast so that we can give some love back to Nick and his team who do a fantastic job.

Thank you very much. Uh, if you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, and there are a couple of different ways you could answer this question, I suppose, uh, who would it be and why? Who comes to mind?

I'm not gonna go political, but I want to.

You can. I mean, it's up to you. I— no judgment. We're all friends.

No, no, I'm not. I'm gonna say one person, dead or alive, who would I want to, to read this book? Um, I think my dad. Uh, my dad passed away in 2021, December 29th. And, um, he had a— he was a very, I'd say above average salesperson for 35 years at a company called Whirlpool. And, um, he, his last 20 years of his life, he just battled a ton of health issues, didn't take care of himself. Um, and me and my wife had to take care of him physically, emotionally, financially, in and out of assisted living facilities, hospitals, psych wards. Um, I'd love for him to read it and be able to say, man, Case, proud of you. Just to, just to, uh, without the dementia, to be able to see what his son that he raised, you know, probably a guy that he thought wasn't going to be an author, but to, to see what he, what he raised and helped do. I'd love for my dad to read it.

What's, uh, what's the next book that you'll write?

I get that question a lot. Um, I, I mean, it's easy to say One Line Curiosity, but Nick, I feel like there's so many more people who need to learn about win the relationship, not the deal. And so my— like, one of the people that you connected me to, um, a friend in Singapore, he said, he said this, this book is going to go up next to Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. And I'm like, Are you just saying that? He's like, no, I mean it. Blew me away. So I, I never say never, but if I do, it'll be about curiosity for sure. Um, but I feel like I have so much more to do to get out of this first one that I just— I'm obsessed with the 6 principles. Um, I work on them often. And so at this stage, I'm going to continue to focus on that one. Hmm.

Shout out Rayson Chu. And, uh, he's had some big names on his podcast, so The fact that those books aren't up there and yours is, is a good and honest testament for what value it provides. That's awesome.

Thank you again for introducing me to him.

Yeah. Well, listen, Casey, it's been a great conversation. If you could leave one final message with the Book Thinkers family other than be or stay curious, what would it be?

One of the most powerful pieces of advice I got in my life was at my first job outta college. And my leader asked me a question. He goes, Casey, do you wanna be right? Or do you want to get what you want? You can't have both. I'm like, but I want both. He's like, you can't. You got to pick one. I go, uh, I thought— I go, I want to get what I want. He's like, good answer. I go, why? He goes, you tell me why. I'm like, well, if I want to be right, it probably means my ego's in the way. He's like, good job. You're right. Focus on getting what you want, which means you check your ego, which means you got to be curious. You got to think about the big picture. You got to worry about like sometimes you got to give to get. And so as sellers, I would be focusing on that. If you're ever trying to convince people that you're right, if you're trying to convince someone to buy, they're going to resist you always. But getting what you want, which is that deal, a good customer experience, you got to ask the right questions. So treat yourself almost like you're a custodian, and custodians have keys, but you're going to be a sales custodian and your keys are questions. And if you ask the right question, it'll unlock the right door or unlock the right conversation to lead you to a new path.

Beautiful way to end the show. Thank you, Casey.

Yeah, thank you.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, Go read something.